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Evolution And Creationism Opposite

Can you believe in the evolution theory and still believe God created the universe? Such as if there was a big bang - did God create the bang?

Moderator - No, as evolution is the opposite of the Bible.

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2)As a BELIEVER in creationism rather than a BELIEVER in evolution, evolutionists do not bother me in any way. Why? Because in this life/world/existence, there is but 1(one)reality. That reality is that this world did not randomly start by some BIG BANG out of no where ,and created by nothing. No. The truth and reality is God exists and has left us a record of His existence.The record also includes how all things were created. In addition He has sent us Jesus Christ to atone for our sins. It is reality.
---jody_martin on 9/20/07

surely the geologic record supports a flood. But the flood occured at least millions of years ago, and was a time well before humans walked the earth. In fact it was a time I believe before animals or even reptiles, It was still the time of the fish
---alexia on 9/20/07

Lorra, the days of Gen. 1 were the same as the days of our working week, as shown by Ex. 20:8-11. And when the Hebrew yom (day) has a numeric or evening or morning, it is a normal length day.

By 24-hour I obviously meant the normal length, I'm perfectly well aware that it's an approximation.

The days obviously refer to Earth days, since that is the focus of God's creative activity.
---ktisophilos on 9/20/07

I think the big bang is just fine, and the bible is just fine. Both speak to quite different things. I dislike this turning days into arbitrary years to fit some cosmological model. How can we then be sure Jesus rose after 3 days? Did the Jews wander for 40 years or 400? It makes time incalculable across the board.
---alexia on 9/16/07

Lorra: They were evening-morning days. You know, night and day. If they had been 1000-year days, the 500 years without light would have killed everything. Why do you fight for God's enemies so hard?
---jerry6593 on 9/15/07

ktisophilos, are you aware that the length of a day depends on the rotation of the planet. Different planets have different lenghths for the various calendar elements. Unless God started the earth's rotation at a 24 hour cycle (and ours is NOT exactly 24 hours, just close) and there is nothing to say in the Bible that He did, then the days may not have been that precise even if taken literally. You are forcing God into a straightjacket.
---lorra8574 on 9/15/07

"...The Bible teaches that God created the world in 6 normal-length days about 6000 years ago, ...."
---ktisophilos on 9/14/07

Where in the Bible does it state that these were "normal" 24 hour days, as opposed to God's normal days? 2 Peter 3:8 (fyi, this passage is not absolutely literal even for the thousand years).

As for the flood, it is in the geological record and not disputed by evolution or other forms of science.
---lorra8574 on 9/14/07

Lorra, you clearly understand neither the Bible nor evolution. The Bible teaches that God created the world in 6 normal-length days about 6000 years ago, that death and suffering are the result of Adam's sin, and that God judged the world by a global flood. And this is in a passage that has the verb structure of Hebrew narrative, and is understood that way by the other biblical writers.

Evolution uses millions of years of death of the unfit to "create" things.
---ktisophilos on 9/14/07

Evolution may or may not be true, but it is not in opposition to the Bible, only the strict interpretation by some. When God inspired the Bible, I doubt that He was interested in teaching us the science of our universe, but rather was more concerned in our spiritual well being. The point of the Bible is to teach us about Him and to bring us closer to Him. The rest we can figure out for ourselves with our God-given intellect.
---lorra8574 on 9/8/07

MikeMocker: inerrant may have been "coined", but it is appropriate to describe scriptures that affirm no errors. Jesus said "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), and Paul called it "God breathed" (1 Tim. 2:16).

So what if other books are quoted. And if it has been changed, then prove it by producing the hypothetical unchanged versions!
---ktisophilos on 9/8/07

Alan, the role of the government is to stop people using fraud or coercion to do business. But if both parties are free to exchange and do so voluntarily, the government has no business stopping them. It is coercive and patronizing.

In fact, the free market is the best antidote to greed and immorality (apart from redemption). To succeed, a businessman must serve many people with affordable goods. And free competition means that people have elsewhere to go if a business cheats them.
---Ktisophilos on 8/16/07

Alan, conversely, it is government interference that produces coercive monopolies and encourages corruption. This is what is truly exploitative.

For example, trade barriers mean that consumers are exploited, because they are limited to buying from inefficient industries in their own country. And other businesses are harmed because these consumers have less to spend on them.
---Ktisophilos on 8/16/07

And if there is too much government regulation, there is more incentive for businesses to cross officials' palms with silver to circumvent onerous red tape. There is also scope for officials to demand favours on pain of blocking business with more red tape.
---Ktisophilos on 8/16/07

Hernando de Soto's book The Mystery of Capital is most instructive. This shows that if private property in poor countries were freed up from statist ownership, this would provide 90 times more wealth than all the foreign aid to all Third World countries over the past three decades.

But there is so much government red tape that prevents many from owning their own property. So the capital cannot be used as capital for investment loans.
---Ktisophilos on 8/16/07

Inerrent is a term coined, and applied to the scriptures by fundamentalist, they use it sometimes, deny it other times. i pointed out that the bible quotes a dozen other books nad has been changed countless times, this point ignored.

Capitolism adeu, Fountianhead.
---MikeM on 8/17/07

Adam, I wrote,"Believing in God and not accepting the Biblical explanation for the world's creation questions God and will provide you an eternity in Hell." Your reply was,"In other words, deny reality in favor of myths".Well I am confused. Are you saying the Bible is mythology? Are you criticizing me for belieiving the Bible is the word of God? I will pray for you.
---matthew on 8/14/07

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Warwick "This doesn't change the fact that those who continue in Sin die spiritually & physically never to rise again as Jesus promises we will do"
I'm glad you agree with me at last.
---alan_of_UK on 8/14/07

K ... My point was that capitalism means that the greedy and immoral exploit the honest and the weak and the needy.
Capitalism needs to be under some control. or else it becomes unbridled and millions suffer whilst afew prosper.
I am not a socialist, but I have been around enough to modify my previous capitalist views, because I have seen the adverse effect of it when not controlled.
---alan_of_UK on 8/14/07

The pope says it is an absurdity that there is a problem bt christianity and evolution

personally even if I was not a Christian I would not believe in evolution but as a believer in the Bible I can't believe in evolution
---Andrea on 8/14/07

An old Russian joke from the Soviet era:

- What happens if you introduce communism into the Sahara?
- For he first 50 years - nothing. Then you'll have a shortage of sand.
---ktisophilos on 8/14/07

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An old Russian joke from the Soviet era:

- What happens if you introduce communism into the Sahara?
- For he first 50 years - nothing. Then you'll have a shortage of sand.
---ktisophilos on 8/14/07

For a Christian to believe in evolution, it is in fact calling God a liar. Evolution denies that God spoke the world into existence. The two are opposite to each other, one of the devil (evolution) and the other of God (Creationism). Christians are called to believe EVERYTHING that God says.
---Helen_5378 on 8/14/07

Alan_UK, George Reisman pointed out (Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics, p. 331, 1998):

"The difference between freedom and slavery is as sharp as day and night, even when a worker must work to avoid the pain of hunger. For even in this case it is not the capitalist employer who causes the workers hunger. On the contrary, he provides the means of satisfying the workers hunger."

See also Andrew Kulikovsky's excellent paper Biblical Economics (online).
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

Animals and humans were both created vegetarian, as Gen. 1:29-30 says:

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

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Alan_UK, the whole point of capitalism is that a free buyer can make a voluntary exchange with a free seller. The government's role is to restrain fraud and coercion, and protect private property rights.

Capitalism should not be confused with "crony capitalism", where certain businesses gain favour from the government. Genuine free marketeers from Adam Smith have had nothing good to say about big business.
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

AlanofUK Jesus paying the price of Adam's sin died physically & rose again bodily. We who accepted his forgiveness have inherited eternal life- as Jesus said -he who believes in me has everlasting life Jn6:47 & elsewhere. We follow Christ as He like Adam died physically-the wages of sin is death- & rose again with a new eternal body as we will.

This doesn't change the fact that those who continue in Sin die spiritually & physically never to rise again as Jesus promises we will do.
---Warwick on 8/13/07

MikeM's fatal flaw is his starting point. Having uncritically accepted long ages & evolution he now engages in Biblical distortion desiring to make God's inerrant Word conform to fallible, sinful mans passing ideas. He has even tried on numerous occasions to pass natural selection off as the force which lead from microbe to man.

Because of his starting bias he's forced to place the fossil record before the sin of Adam therefore he MUST consider that physical death existed before sin.
---Warwick on 8/13/07

The Bible is clear that physical death entered the world because of Adams sin but Mike cant accept this as it contradicts the evolutionary opinions of man, which he has accepted. He is therefore forced to reinterpret Scripture placing mans ideas above the Word of God. But we Christians are to view the world through the eyes of its creator, who makes no mistakes & cannot lie.

Mike continues to say that his dreaded fundamentalist/s reject science being ignorant of truth.
---Warwick on 8/13/07

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He continues in this deceit even though I and others have pointed out the historical fact that the scientific method which has given us wonderful technological advances came from the minds of fundamentalist Christians who believing this to be Gods created world set out to explore it. Dr Mark Harwood whom I mentioned in another thread continues in this Christian scientific tradition being involved in the design & launching of satellites.
---Warwick on 8/13/07

While "survival of the fittest" can be observed, evolution can't. "Natural selection" increases or decreases genetic traits, it can't alter the genetic code of a fish into that of a horse over time. That's like saying if you multiply enough zeros, over time you'll get something other than zero. Scientists get frustrated when they can't discover something that God hasn't yet revealed, so they make up their own answers to justify their "expertise".
---Jim on 8/13/07

I would go into detail on this, but I am unsure what Kitso defines as 'The church." As to socialism, he is mistaken, as a Libertarian I could not be more far from it. Among others my hero is Thomas Paine. I see all goverment as an intrusionm a needed evil that need to be limited.
---MikeM on 8/13/07

K "Alan_UK, socialism has always required coercion"
So does capitalism.
In each case, by the haves.
---alan_of_UK on 8/13/07

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K ... I can accept that Genesis 9 3 may indicate that man may have been previously vegetarian, but where does Genesis 9.3 say that animals did not previously eat meat?
---alan_of_UK on 8/13/07

Alan_UK, socialism has always required coercion. When governments control prices, there will always be shortages and surpluses. Time and time again this has happened.

As Churchill said, "The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery."
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

Far from being a novelty, as Mike the Heretic claims, for most of its history, the Church has understood that death and suffering came with the Fall.
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

4th century theologian St Basil the Great (On the origin of Man 2:6-7):

Let the Church neglect nothing, everything is a law. Gid did not say: "I have given you the fishes for food, I have given you the cattle, the reptiles, the quadrupeds." It is not for this that He created, says the Scripture. In fact, the first legislation allowed the use of fruits, for were were still judged worthy of Paradise.
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

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What is the mystery which is concealed for you under this? To you, to the wild animals and the birds, says the Scripture, fruits, vegetation and herbs (are given) .... We see, however, many wild animals which do not eat fruits. What fruit does the panther accept to nourish itself? What fruit can the lion satisfy himself with?
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

Basil cont. 2

Nevertheless, these beings, submitting to the law of natures, were nourished by fruits. But when man changed his way of life and departed from the limit which had been assigned him, the Lord, after the Flood, knowing that men were wasteful, allowed them the use of al foods, "eat all that in the same was as edible plants (Gen. 9:3). By this allowance, the other animals also received the liberty to eat them [should be after the Fall, the big discontinuity as Basil himself says].
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

Basil cont. 3

Since then the lion is a carnivore, since then also vultures watch for carrion. For the vultures were not yet looking over the earth at the very moment when the animals were born ... nothing ... had yet died so that the vultures might eat them. Nature had not yet divided, for it was all in its freshness: hunters did not capture, for such was not yet the practice of men, the beasts, for their part, did not yet tear their prey, for they were not carnivores ....
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

WEarwick "AlanofUK I had no problem understanding Ktiso's point being that population density does not cause starvation but that it is the result of corrupt beliefs & practices"
What makes you think I have a problem with that? Did you not read what I said?.
---alan_of_UK on 8/13/07

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Warwick ... I'm not sure what we are arguing about!
Yes Jesus died a physical death, but in doing so, He did not overcome our physical death, because we still die. He gave us spiritual eternity.
That is an issue a half step removed from the death (physical or spiritual) which was introduced at the time of the Fall.
---alan_of_UK on 8/13/07

The Bible teaches that death is the penalty for sin. The young earth fundamentalist carry it one step further than the Bible teaches by adding their belief that there was no physical death before sin. But when Adam sinned, spiritual death was introduced not physical death. It's clear from the fossil record animal death has existed for a long time. Adam's sin subjected humanity to death but it did not introduce physical death to nature. This mistaken belief is due to a twisting of a few Bible verses
---MikeM on 8/12/07

What must be remembered is fundamentalist have redefined what science is, redefined to support their own idiosyncratic world-view. It is a redefined science by, for them, alone. Objective evidence is accepted, rejected based on biblical literalism, period. Anthropology, biology, paleontology, geology, archeology, etc etc etc do not even exist as sciences, according to fundamentalist Christians. Occasional anomalies in say dating are seen-touted as failure of said sciences.
---MikeM on 8/12/07

AlanofUK I had no problem understanding Ktiso's point being that population density does not cause starvation but that it is the result of corrupt beliefs & practices.

Alan I think you just like to be argumentive. A bit of sparring to brighten the day right?
---Warwick on 8/11/07

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AlanofUK the whole point of Corinthians chapter 15 is death & resurrection including Jesus death & resurrection which you agree was physical. Verse 3,4. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures I see no hint this chapter is discussing spiritual death. Did you read it?
---Warwick on 8/11/07

Verse 21 says 'for since death comes through
a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.' This counteracts the idea that Jesus' resurrection ( & by extension ours) is just some pie-in-the --sky spiritual resurrection. It also shows that the death which Adam introduced was physical death which Jesus overcame when he physically rose. How can you say Scripture is quiet about physical death being introduced at the fall?
---Warwick on 8/11/07

I asked you the question- ' how can death be an 'enemy' if as the Christian evolutionist says, it's what God used over millions of years to mould his creation?'
At creation God pronounced it 'very good' but If you're correct His 'very good' creation was one of 'nature red in tooth & claw' as shown by the death, disease & suffering in the fossil record. He also says death is an enemy, making God some sort of inconsistent monster.
---Warwick on 8/11/07

K "The problem is not too many people, but corrupt socialistic governments that starve their people by inept economics or violence"
I disagree with you ... The problems are cause by sinful leaders, not their politics.
Ireland faced starvation a few centuries ago because of vengeful English rule and greedly landlords
Zimbabwe suffers because of Mugabe's greed and stupidy, not because of the socialism he pretends to espouse.
---alan_of_UK on 8/11/07

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I don't believe in the big bang theory or any other type of "off the wall" theory. God created the earth, everything on the earth, in the water, in the sky (including the sun, moon and stars), and everything under the earth. I do believe some things might be interpreted differently between then and now.
---Jean on 8/10/07

Alan_UK: Adam's punishment was explicitly physical death--the return to the dust from which he was made. Jesus also died physically, then conquered physical death, which is a promise that believers will as well. As Jesus was not spared physical death, most Christians will not be either.
---Ktisophilos on 8/10/07

Calvin: "some understand ... 'Thou shalt die', in a spiritual sense, thinking that, even if Adam had not sinned, his body must still have been separated from his soul. ... Paul is clear, that all die in Adam, as they shall rise again in Christ (1 Corinthians xv. 22), this wound was inflicted by sin. Truly the first man would have passed to a better life, had he remained upright, but ... no separation of the soul from the body, no corruption, no kind of destruction, and, in short, no violent change.
---Ktisophilos on 8/10/07

Wesley: "Why is there pain in the world, seeing God is 'loving to every man, and his mercy is over all his works?' Because there is sin: Had there been no sin, there would have been no pain. But pain (supposing God to be just) is the necessary effect of sin. But why is there sin in the world? Because man was created in the image of God: Because he is not mere matter, a clod of earth, a lump of clay, without sense or understanding, but a spirit like his Creator ..."
---Ktisophilos on 8/10/07

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Alan_UK: the world is not overcrowded. Some of the most prosperous countries in the world have very high population densities. Hong Kong and Singapore are prosperous but also densely populated.

UK has a population density of 246/km2, cf. Pakistan 198, China 137, Ethiopia 70, Congo 11.7.

The problem is not too many people, but corrupt socialistic governments that starve their people by inept economics or violence.
---Ktisophilos on 8/10/07

Warwick ...# 1 "For just one example see I 15 which is about physical death & resurrection including that of Jesus. Verse 26 says 'the last enemy to be destroyed is death.'"
Yes it does indeeed say that, but it does not say whether that is physical or spiritual death.
---alan_of_UK on 8/10/07

Warwick ...# 2 Christ died, at least His basic human mortal form died. When He rose, it was with a different form, which was sometimes physical as when he told Thomas to touch Him, but at other times it was not a normal mortal body.
Christ's death & resurrection has not saved anyone yet, nor will it, from the death of this present mortal body.
---alan_of_UK on 8/10/07

Warwick ...# 3 That is not the death from which He saves us.
What He saves us from is the total death ... separation from God, and punishment. That is what I mean by spiritual death. Christ has saved us fronm that, because, like Him, we will after physical death, take another body as we go to be with Him.
(Whether it is physical or spiritual is a matter of individual interpretation, and it does not matter
---alan_of_UK on 8/10/07

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Warwick ...# 4 The Bible appears to be silent as to whether there was physical death before the Fall.
Physical death should not be feared now (because of Christ) and neither would it have been then.
---alan_of_UK on 8/10/07

What do you mean by 'evolution theory'? Different people mean different things. I would accept that yes, some changes in genes can happen, and sometimes they may mean it helps an animal. I also take the six days of creation, not as days of 24 hours, but periods in which God created the world. I have NO problem with anyone who takes the days as 24 hours, but I don't usually think of it that way.
---Peter5448 on 8/10/07

In other words, deny reality in favor of myths.
---Adam on 8/10/07

If God created the big bang, what if scientists find another explanation. Are we going to say that God created that? Believing in God its a matter of pure faith based on the Bible. If you believe the Bible that God exists and created the world, then you must also accept by faith that he did it in seven days. You cannot accept by faith one without the other. Believing in God and not accepting the Biblical explanation for the world's creation questions God and will provide you an eternity in Hell.
---matthew on 8/10/07

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If a person believes in evolution, then wickedness, death, and decay happened for millions of years before Adam and Eve fell, making God, who pronounced everything He created "good," is a liar. God said He created the universe/earth/everything on the earth in 6 literal days ("morning" and "evening" used with Hebrew word "yom," qualifies "day" as a normal day).
---Ang on 8/10/07

AlanofUK re-vegetation my assumption which I believe is soundly based is that nature was affected by the fall-The whole of creation groans in bondage to sin & decay- & that the world which existed was destroyed by the flood bringing further changes. My other assumption is to assume that God's in control & wouldn't have been caught napping, without a plan, should Adam not have sinned. I think the God who spoke it all into existence in six ordinary days could have handled the problem.
---Warwick on 8/10/07

AlanofUK I don't 'insist' that the fall introduced physical death into Gods creation, that's what Scripture says.

For just one example see I 15 which is about physical death & resurrection including that of Jesus. Verse 26 says 'the last enemy to be destroyed is death.'

How can death be an 'enemy', if as the Christian evolutionist (Theistic Evolutionist) says, it is what God used over millions of years to mould his creation?
---Warwick on 8/10/07

Andrea ... If you had read what I have consistently said elsewhere on these blogs you would know I am not wed to Evolution (note the upper-case "E")
I believe Genesis, but doubt (but do not deny) the "Creationist's" 144 hour interpretation.
I believe in Intelligent Design, and God doing or planning it all, and possibly (but I don't insist on it) using evolution (note the lower-case "e") as one of His tools
---alan_of_UK on 8/10/07

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AlanofUK my point was to show how few we are in relation to the massive area of the earth.

From my reading the earth's resources are sufficient, even with present technology to sustain many times the current population of the earth.

Alan Scripture tells me that Jesus died physically & rose again in a different eternal physical form & that through faith in Him even though we die we rise again to receive, like Him a new physical body to last for eternity.
---Warwick on 8/10/07

K The question is not whether Jesus died a physical death ... He did. It is about whether our death because of the fall is the physical death that everone and everything suffers, or spiritual death which separates us from God.
Jesus death on the Cross does not spare us physical death, but it can, for those who grasp His promise, save us from the far worse spiritual death.
---alan_of_UK on 8/9/07

alan UK - I believe you are sincere in your faith. We other 'creationist' fear that it compromises the scriptures and endangers millions who think there is no God. So please before you give up on Intelligent design or creationism go to Creation dot com. They have many scientific reasons why ID is true. For years I wouldn't believe there was a God bc I believed evolution it is a lie from hell.
---Andrea on 8/9/07

Warwick ... If all 6 billion lived in LA, or, K, in the UK, the i sq meter, or even 20 square meters would not be sufficinet space to support their needs.
I know that is no real answer, but neither is yours that the world is not overcrowded. With the way we live and treat ech other, it is.
---alan_of_UK on 8/9/07

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Adam's death was physical "dust to dust". Jesus' death was physical. His resurrrection was physical, leaving the grave clothes intact. If Adam's death wasn't physical, then was Jesus' resurrection?
---Ktisophilos on 8/9/07

People say the world is overcrowded & indeed parts are but I did a calculation based on the worlds current population of about 6 billion & the area of greater Los Angeles in square metres.

My rough calculation shows if every person on earth was given one square metre they would all fit within the bounds of greater LA.

The world overcrowded? I don't think so.
---Warwick on 8/9/07

Alan_of_UK, please don't swallow Paul Ehrlich's repeated false prophecies. All 6 billion people could fit into an area the size of England, with over 20 square metres each.

Vegetation is not nephesh chayyah, so as far as the Bible is concerned, doesn't live or die.

Since the purpose of multiplication was to fill the earth, once this purpose had been achieved, the command would be rendered inoperative. Even now, animals can limit their breeding when overcrowded.
---Ktisophilos on 8/9/07

Warwick ... You ask me "'Alan do you accept Jesus literally died & rose again physically?'
The answer is "Yes" as recorded in the Bible.
But why do you ask the question, as it has nothing directly to do with the point under discussion, which is whether "death" resulting from the Fall is physical (as you insist) or, as I suggest, spiritual, which is a far more serious & unwelcome thing, because it takes us away from God, whereas physical death doesn't
---alan_of_UK on 8/9/07

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StevenG ... You say to me "It's obvious you don't travel much"
And "I've traveled the depth and breath of America"
Have you been to Australasia, or what used to be called the Orient, or to Europe, or to Africa, or South America?
Do you have a passport?
---alan_of_UK on 8/9/07

Warwick ... You say "Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Jesus came to pay this price, which was his physical death, not his spiritual death wasn't it? If the wages of sin is spiritual death then why did Jesus have to die physically?"
If Jesus came to save us from physical death, why is it that saved born-again Christians suffer physical death?
---alan_of_UK on 8/9/07

Warwick "your point about vegetation build up assumes that things before the fall & before the world was destroyed by the flood were the same as now. How can we assume such a thing?"
I take you point, and no we cannot assume such a thing.
But to deny my point seems to require us to "assume" that trees and plants and animals did not multiply, or did so far less quickly.
Maybe that is the case, but neither view is capable of proof.
---alan_of_UK on 8/9/07

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