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What Does Apostate Mean

I do not understand the repeated use of the phrase 'Apostate Church' in different circumstances. Please can someone explain this to me? What does it mean?

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Apostate are those still in the wilderness. They came out of egypt, but never went into Canaan. In Church understanding, they have a form of Godliness, but deny the power. They never completed the salvation experience. They never crossed the Jordan so to speak.
The Jordan represents the Cross, and Canaan our life in Christ. Crucified with Christ and raised a New Creation.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/06


"Apostate is a state where they sale dog food. Oh, I'm sorry, that's Alpo, not Apo-state...just kiddin." --Eloy

LOL!! Oh, that was wonderful! I needed that! Feels so good to laugh!!! :)
---Kay on 12/10/06


Apostate is a state where they sale dog food. Oh, I'm sorry, that's Alpo, not Apo-state...just kiddin.
---Eloy on 12/9/06


Emcee, the agreement was if Israel obeyed the 10 commandments along with the commandments contained in the book of the law, God promised to be their God and they would be His people. I've given you the scriptures that clearly teach that the 10 commandments were the words of the covenant that God made with Israel through Moses. If you don't want to accept that, well, thats your choice. I still love you no matter how often we disagree. :)
---Kay on 12/8/06


"..he renewed that covenant.ex23;14-19;ex3410-27:the 10 C's were never abolished."

Emcee, you're quoting the old covenant to prove that the old covenant was never abolished?! The old covenant was NEVER renewed in the NT. The whole purpose of God becoming man was to finally fulfill and then terminate that covenant so that His new covenant could begin.
---Kay on 12/8/06




Kay ::A covenant is a pact .an agreementThe pact was "I shall be your God & You shall be my People."had nothing to do with the 10-C's the 10 c'c were "Thou shalt Not" commands because he was GOD.he renewed that covenant.ex23;14-19;ex3410-27:the 10 C's were never abolished.However you may believe what you wish.
---Emcee on 12/7/06


"Kay ::The words you gave Laure IMHO is incorrect.why??because The old 10C's are the same BUT NOT the covenant"

Emcee, the 10 commandments = old covenant. The 10 commandments are referred to as "the words of the covenant" (Exodus 34:27,28) and "the tables of the covenant" (Deut 9:9). God told Moses to put the 10 commandments into the ark. And why was the ark called the ark of the covenant? Because it held the covenant, the 10 commandments.
---Kay on 12/7/06


Emcee, God cancelled out the ENTIRE Old Covenant. He removed the first in order to establish the second (Hebrews 10:9,10). When a covenant is terminated the only way that any of its laws can be binding under a new covenant is if someone places those previous laws into that new covenant.
---Kay on 12/7/06


If you study the NT you will see that Jesus and the apostles reaffirmed 9 of the 10 commandments, excluding the commandment to observe the Sabbath law. The Sabbath was a ceremonial law that pictured Christ Himself. There wasn't any need to place the Sabbath law into the new covenant since Jesus is the reality of that ceremonial law. The Sabbath prefigured the rest that we have in Christ (Hebrews 4 & Matthew 11:28-30).
---Kay on 12/7/06


Emcee, Jesus IS the NC, but the NC isn't the 10. That is like saying the NC is the OC. God said that the new covenant isn't according to the covenant that He made with Israel through Moses (Jer 31:32;Hebr 8:9). 2 Cor 3 says that the 10C's were the ministration of death and condemnation. The NC is the ministration of life and forgiveness. As for Jesus saying that He came to fulfill the law, read the entire passage. The old covenant wasn't to pass away UNTIL it was completely fulfilled by Christ.
---Kay on 12/7/06




"There is just one,His 10'C & His church.Mat16;17-19"

Emcee, the 10 commandments were part of the covenant that God made with Israel. The Gentiles were never given that covenant. We are to serve God according to the law of Jesus Christ (the new covenant), not the law of Moses (the old covenant). And I already know your interpretation of the Church. You believe its the RCC, right?


love ya!

---Kay on 12/6/06


Kay ::The words you gave Laure IMHO is incorrect.why??because The old 10C's are the same BUT NOT the covenant& nowhere can you show that God dropped or cancelled ONE & left 9.The veil of the temple was rent when Jesus died & that is when the old Covenant was abolished. Jesus "IS" the New Covenant & the same 10C's "I came not to abolish theLAW but to fulfill it."
---Emcee on 12/6/06


Emcee - "God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant. The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set aprat for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Isreal. (2171)Catechism of the Cat Church.
---lee1538 on 12/6/06


Emcee - "Jesus rose from the dead on the 1st day of the week. Bec it is the 1st day ,the day of Christ's resurrection recalls the 1st creation. Bec it is the 8th day, following the Sabbath, it symbolizes teh new creation ushered in by the Resurrection. For Christians, it has become the 1st of all days, the 1st of all feasts, the Lord's day. 2174
---lee1538 on 12/6/06


Emcee, the Flood was BEFORE He made a covenant with Israel. Anyone who has ever studied the Bible knows that God had/has a special relationship with Israel. Deny that and you've denied the entire Bible.
---Kay on 12/6/06


Emcee, the Bible (old testament) clearly makes a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. Obviously there were 2 separate people in the eyes of God. The Gentiles were referred to as "strangers" and "unclean". The Jews were referred to as "children" and "holy". Big difference.
---Kay on 12/6/06


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Kay ::Sure as there is a HEAVEN & a HELL God almighty did not discriminate between Jews & Gentiles remember The Flood??He Did not create 2 sets of people so why 2 laws or Covenants the old is out There is just one,His 10'C & His church.Mat16;17-19 plus all contained in the WORD.Look for the Word & you will find ALL.
---Emcee on 12/6/06


Emcee, there aren't two sets of laws (covenants). The [old] covenant that God made with Israel through Moses was never made with the Gentiles. That covenant consisted of the 10 commandments and the book of the law. The old covenant (also known as the law of Moses) was a temporary covenant given to prepare Israel for Christ. When Jesus established the new covenant the old covenant was terminated. Unlike the old covenant, the new covenant includes Jews and Gentiles.
---Kay on 12/6/06


"Think of what you are saying, in your effort to prove a point, which you know is wrong & not justified, you are digressing."

Emcee, what I'm saying is directly from the Word of God. The law of Moses was abolished and replaced with the law of Christ.

"First you said the 10 C's were abolished.To admit you have to submit its no shame."

The old covenant is gone.
2 Cor 3
Gal 3:19-29
Eph 2:11-16
Col 2:14-17
Rom 10:4
Hebrews chapters 7,8,9,10
---Kay on 12/6/06


Kay::God loves Humanity without distinction,if so why will he give two sets of laws, 1. for Jews & another for gentiles.Do you think He does not want Gentiles to worship praise Him?.Think of what you are saying, in your effort to prove a point, which you know is wrong & not justified, you are digressing.First you said the 10 C's were abolished.To admit you have to submit its no shame.
---Emcee on 11/29/06


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fleur - Since the problem the Galatians had was that after they received the Spirit by faith, they resorted to religious ordinances believing that faith was not enough.

The laws they sought were the ceremonial or ritual type laws such as observances "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years."(4:10)
The law is not of faith, rather, "the one who does them shall live by them".
---lee1538 on 11/29/06


laure5759, I agree that God's moral laws are for all of us. But the Old Covenant, which is the 10 commandments along with the laws listed in the book of the law, was for Israel. The commandments of Christ, which includes 9 of the 10 commandments, is for everyone.
---Kay on 11/29/06


sam - The Old testament laws really codified what sin was and what constituted the attributes of God; the Law of Christ, not a codified system, constitutes a complete re-ordering of life, a total change of heart, mind, intent & purpose - a change wrought by the Holy Spirit in work within the believer. It is identical with the law of God, and is what the law of Moses pointed towards - Romans 3:21-22, 1 Pet. 1:10-11, John 5:39-40, 45-46, Lk 24:44-47.
---lee1538 on 11/27/06


Laure::Since you do not disagree with me then may be you will agree that grace can also be achieved as Jesus said "If you love me keep my Commandments to have eternal life" which is Grace everlasting.Well K dear,what say you ?MyAD.:-)
---Emcee on 11/27/06


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Lee, can you explain the difference between the Law of Christ and the Old Testament Laws please with a bible text to confirm. Thanks
---sam on 11/27/06


Lee The Law was given only until faith came. What Law was that please and why is it no longer valid after faith? Please reply with a bible text
---fleur on 11/27/06


Emcee - you assume we do not agree with your last statement, but I for one do. However, although we are no longer under the law, since each of us is Gentile, and not Jew (and since Jesus has already come), we must do our best, through Jesus Christ, to obey the law. Obedience to the law, however, does not (and never will) save us. Only the grace of God can do this.
---laure5759 on 11/26/06


Kay - I do disagree that the law was for Israel only. In practice, and at that point in time, yes, but in principal, it is for the whole world. It is the moral basis for what used to be the laws of many lands, and it is a universal moral base that does not change. It applies to all of us.
---laure5759 on 11/26/06


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Emcee - gald to see that you agree Sabbath keeping (4th commandment) is really a choice one makes.

Scripture plainly states -

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
---lee1538 on 11/26/06


Lee,Laure,Kay::This is a forum not a battle field you have excercised your choice.AMEN. Time will tell.The Holy Trinity is ONE.The laws given to humanity have not changed- why? Jesus SAID SO.My Choice.Like I said believe it or NOT.God does not change even one period in His word.
---Emcee on 11/26/06


Emcee - you are in error if you insist that the Christian live under the Old Testament law instead of under the law of Christ. What was given to the Jewish nation is not the same as was given to the church. The law was given only until faith came.

Galatians 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

The Christians salvation is totally by grace received by faith alone in Christ alone; not by works (Eph. 2:8-10)
---lee1538 on 11/26/06


Emcee - I do not adhere to any denomination. I adhere only to the Jesus, and those who teach what the Bible teaches. For me, it is immaterial what denomination's church I attend - so long at they are bible-based.

Neither do I adhere to any traditions, but try to live a complete life in Jesus.
---laure5759 on 11/26/06


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"Kdear:I do not know what denomination or beliefs you entertain."

I'm non-denominational.

"Moses did not write the 10 commandments God DID & the 4th says Keep Holy the sabbath day."

Emcee, the law of Moses includes the 10 commandments. Moses did write at least one copy of the 10 commandments and placed them in the book of the law. The 10 commandments along with the other laws given to Moses by God were for the nation of Israel only.
---Kay on 11/25/06


"Jesus came to fulfill His Fathers laws.If you want to find an excuse to not keep this simple request of the Almighty God..."

Emcee, Jesus came to fulfill the Old Law and then He was to end it (Matt.5:17-18; Rom 10:4). He took away the old law in order to bring forth the new law (Hebr 10:9,10). No one is obligated to serve God according to the law of Moses. Our salvation isn't based on observance of the Old Covenant laws. We are to obey God according to the commandments of Jesus Christ.
---Kay on 11/25/06


"..but if you break one you break all as you are out of Grace."

Emcee, no one is out of grace if they don't keep the Old Law. The Bible says that those who think that they are obligated to keep the Old Law have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:1-4)

love ya!
---Kay on 11/25/06


Emcee, the 10 commandments were part of the covenant that God made with Israel. That covenant was terminated by the death of Jesus Christ. When Jesus established His covenant with New Testament believers, He placed only 9 of the 10 commandments within His covenant along with 2 commands from the book of the law. He also added new commands that weren't included in the Old Law.
---Kay on 11/25/06


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Emcee - *Lee ::Maybe you do not read Matt16;17-19 to comprehend The 265 successors of Peter are all affiliated to the RCC*

There was no recognition at all among those of the early church as to Peter being the head of any church. In fact, he himself considered himself only an elder.

Furhtermore, even Catholic scholars cannot agree as to the initial makeup of the bishops of Rome.
---lee1538 on 11/25/06


Emcee, here are the commands that Jesus took from the old covenant and placed within His new covenant.

Idolatry: 1 John 5:21, 1 Cor 10:7,14
Adultery: 1 Cor 6:9,10
Theft: Ephesians 4:28
Lying: Colossians 3:9; Revelation 21:8
Murder: 1 John 3:15
Covetousness: Colossians 3:5
Love the Lord your God: Matthew 22:37 (taken from Deut.10:12)
Love your neighbor: Matthew 22:39 (taken from Leviticus 19:18)
---Kay on 11/25/06


Kay::As much as I regret to tell you that you are in error,You ARE.The laws of the 10c are split in 2 One sectiion against God, & the other, against your neighbour. Call it what you will, but if you follow the command of Jesus "To love your neighbour as yourself "then you have no choice but to follow the 10c's given by the Father."My words shall stand"Please do not be misled on this.You are like a daughter.
---Emcee on 11/25/06


Lee ::Maybe you do not read Matt16;17-19 to comprehend The 265 successors of Peter are all affiliated to the RCC.Maybe you do not agree but that is a different issue .I cannot force you to see, you must pray for enlightenment if at all in your sincerity you are truly interested.
---Emcee on 11/25/06


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Lee:: Because Peter was the firstApostle installed by Christ in Mat16;17-19& we have had 265 in that same geaneological tree,today called the Roman Catholic Church.He who has ears to hear, let him see.
---Emcee on 11/25/06


Kdear:I do not know what denomination or beliefs you entertain.Moses did not write the 10 commandments God DID & the 4th says Keep Holy the sabbath day.Jesus came to fulfill His Fathers laws.If you want to find an excuse to not keep this simple request of the Almighty God.but if you break one you break all as you are out of Grace.God love you little one.
---Emcee on 11/25/06


Emcee - *Jesus built his church as in Matt16;17-19 Therefore all who oppose His Church are apostate*

But why do you believe that "his church" in this verse refers to the Roman Catholic church as clearly it did not exist for several years and there is absolutely nothing to indicate Christ gave any special entitlement to the bishops of Rome?
---lee on 11/25/06


Emcee, the commandments that Christians are to follow are the commandments of Jesus Christ. We are living by a new covenant, not according to the old covenant.
laure5759 is right. The law of Moses, which is the 10 commandments along with the many other laws, is referred to as the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Cor.3:7-9).
---Kay on 11/25/06


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"KDear ::I am too old to argue, your choice is your own."

Emcee, I certainly don't wish to argue with you. I do like having friendly debates with you though. :)

love ya!
---Kay on 11/25/06


Ps To Laure ::Who am I judging my dear & of what?I am in dialogue with you, would you call that judgement or a guilty conscience.I dont know,you take your pick.
---Emcee on 11/24/06


Laure::There are many things written.But only one which asks "Who do people say the son of Man Is"Peter answered "You are the Messiah,son of the living GOD"The question is what is Apostate.Jesus built his church as in Matt16;17-19Therefore all who oppose His Church are apostate.Go back to Gen3;15 before denominations existed.You are given a choice Her seed or His.So you have to ADMIT or Submit.BTW I do read the Bible lady.
---Emcee on 11/24/06


Once again - how well do you know your Bible?

How well do you have to know the bible to be a Christian? Is it a prerequisite? Does that mean if you are illiterate and can't read you are not a Christian or if you are poor or in a country where bibles are not legal so you don't have one you are not Christian?
---grace3869 on 11/24/06


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Emcee - you are judging, once again, what you do not know. And did you ever realise that the ONLY verse you EVER quote in the Bible is Matt 16:17-19. I have never seen you mention a single other verse in my time here. Once again - how well do you know your Bible?
---laure5759 on 11/23/06


Laure::I usually write what I mean"Jesus said it "means just that & is a reference to words in the bible.those who follow "In His office "Reiterate His words, as I do to.However,you are vague.If you were referring to Matt16;17-19 Then yes, it is emphatic.as are the 10commandments.These guide lines are meant for those who love Him, is to observe them.If as you say the commandments are to remind us we are sinners ,you are in bad shape & need to reevaluate your lifestyle.
---Emcee on 11/23/06


Emcee - when you say "Jesus says it", do you mean Jesus Christ Himself, or do you mean the "Office of Jesus Christ" - meaning the RC Bishops and Popes?
---laure5759 on 11/23/06


Part One

All that the 10 Commandments do is to tell us that we are sinners, as it is impossible to keep the Law. We who are saved by grace (born again) are no longer under the Law, but are guided by it in terms of how we behave with respect to God and to our neighbours. Jesus said to "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself". This SUMS UP the 10 Commandments.
---laure5759 on 11/23/06


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So Jesus did not negate the 10 Commandments, but He fulfilled them, by dying in our place so that we who are unable to adhere to the Law may live by the grace of God alone. We just need to accept Jesus death in our place, and live for Him alone.
---laure5759 on 11/23/06


KDear ::I am too old to argue, your choice is your own.I call it as Jesus says it, no more or less.Yes I am a cradle Catholic as I have been termed; He has steered my life same as you insist He guides yours.I guess I shall find out sooner than you.You are still IT.
---Emcee on 11/22/06


KDear ::I am too old to argue, your choice is your own.I call it as Jesus says it, no more or less.Yes I am a cradle Catholic as I have been termed; He has steered my life same as you insist He guides yours.I guess I shall find out sooner than you.You are still IT.
---Emcee on 11/22/06


"Jesus came to uphold His Fathers command."

Jesus was a Jew born under the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant.

"The 10C'If you break one you break all"

Its referring to the entire Old Covenant laws.

"..therefore you are not born again or born From above"

Emcee, we aren't saved by keeping the Law. Salvation isn't by works of the law. Are you not born-again?
---Kay on 11/22/06


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"I really do not see the flutter in keeping this simple request of Gods Keep holy the sabbath day."

If you want to set aside Saturday as a rest day then thats your choice. But Gentile believers aren't obligated to set aside a day of rest. Our rest is found in Jesus Christ (Matthew 11:28-30).
---Kay on 11/22/06


"HE IS GOD love Him on His terms.His arms spread on the cross is open to Jews & Gentiles He wants to make believers of ALL"

Emcee, and for this cause God took away the covenant that He made with Moses and Israel and gave us all a new covenant. Ephesians ch.2; Hebrews ch.8

love ya!
---Kay on 11/22/06


Bruce and MikeM - your answers are about the most honest that I have read here. This is exactly why I asked the question. I believe it is time that this "apostate" STOPS being a club. That each person look at what they believe relative to the BIBLE ALONE (NOT any other catechism or creed) and identifies for themselves whether they agree with the Bible.
---laure5759 on 11/20/06


"KDear"::"Salvation is not based on Jewish Laws"Jesus came to uphold His Fathers command.'The 10C'If you break one you break all& therefore you are not born again or born From above b/c this is where the command came from.I really do not see the flutter in keeping this simple request of Gods Keep holy the sabbath day.HE IS GOD love Him on His terms.His arms spread on the cross is open to Jews & Gentiles He wants to make believers of ALL
---Emcee on 11/20/06


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"KDear"::"Salvation is not based on Jewish Laws"Jesus came to uphold His Fathers command.'The 10C'If you break one you break all& therefore you are not born again or born From above b/c this is where the command came from.I really do not see the flutter in keeping this simple request of Gods Keep holy the sabbath day.HE IS GOD love Him on His terms.His arms spread on the cross is open to Jews & Gentiles He wants to make believers of ALL
---Emcee on 11/20/06


Emcee, when I say "those who belong to the body of Christ", I'm referring to those who are truly born-again. I'm not referring to those who claim to be Christians but are actually wolves in sheeps clothing. I've known people who professed to be Christian, but didn't believe in repenting and receiving Christ as Savior. These are the ones who will hear Jesus say "depart..I don't know you."
---Kay on 11/20/06


"or nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom"

Emcee, Born-again Christians aren't defiled.

"or He who keeps my commandments"

Born-again believers keep the commandments of Jesus.

"or Keep holy the sabbath day."

Our salvation isn't based on whether or not we observe Jewish laws.
---Kay on 11/20/06


Those who use the term 'apostate' a lot always, of course, place themselves far from the apostates, the true church being represented by their own beliefs, as opposed to all else. The letter of Jude speaks of this. Look at the fruits of a sect, religion, is it, with the exception of a few members Christlike in its disposition? If it is not, all the pretty rhetoric, doctrines, fancy hairdos mean nothing.
---MikeM on 11/20/06


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In the context of these fourms (oops, BLOGS)the phrase "Apostate Chruch" is one of those highly misused phrases that gets swung around like a big club. Used against those who do not see eye to eye with the user.

Brother Okebaram, I agree with your statement on the matter.
---Bruce5656 on 11/20/06


Great answer Kathr. I have quoted that one and people just don't want to hear that one, even though they know not what to do with that passage. I guess just pick the one's that seem to imply in their favor.
---lisa on 11/20/06


KDear::"those who belong to the body of christ will enter the kingdom of heaven"Really?then what about those who say Lord Lord & His reply Iknow you Not.or nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom or He who keeps my commandments, or Keep holy the sabbath day.Or those not in the state of grace & claiming I am saved.& the final admonisition "Be Perfect as your heavenly father is perfect "this applies to all denominations even Rcc.seek & you will find.
---Emcee on 11/20/06


I am not RCC-nor do I plan to be. The RCC is attacked strongly here, but what is failed to be mentioned is that the same RCC is what put together the Canon, and extablished some of the doctrines protestants hold dear, for better or worse. Sola scriptora is as a man made doctrine as the Roman apostolic leadership.
---MikeM on 11/20/06


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Emcee ... That happens to me too.
I think you may be right about the reasons.
---quent5969_the_Scot on 11/20/06


"many of my answers are gone.."


Emcee, that happens to me sometimes,too.

love ya!
---Kay on 11/20/06


Those who have fallen from Grace as Paul said in Galatians. Those who have left Grace plus nothing. Those who have gone back into the world. The Bible said they started with us, but left, because they never were saved to begin with. They have an outward form of Godliness, but have denied the power. That power is Jesus Christ living in us. That power comes only through being crucified with Christ, totally yielded to His righteousness, as He lives through us.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/06


I think the powers that be want an end to this discussion as replies are either being censored & make things one sided which suits theur creed.many of my answers are gone the way of the American filing ststem
Shredded by attrition.
---Emcee on 11/19/06


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I think the powers that be want an end to this discussion as replies are either being censored & make things one sided which suits theur creed.many of my answers are gone the way of the American filing ststem
Shredded by attrition.
---Emcee on 11/19/06


"Throughout the NT we get PAUL as the person to whom the Holy Spirit reveals the majority of the doctrine that the church follows today. If Peter was the "head" of the church, why Paul?"

laure5759, excellent point!
---Kay on 11/19/06


Throughout the NT we get PAUL as the person to whom the Holy Spirit reveals the majority of the doctrine that the church follows today. If Peter was the "head" of the church, why Paul? It does not make sense. And Paul even stood against Peter at one point. No. He was not the "head" of the church. They worked together - as did all the apostles, and Christians.
---laure5759 on 11/17/06


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