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When Was The Ice Age

In school we are learning about cave paintings in Lascaux france that are 'Ice Age" they say over 20,000 years old. As a Christian this confuses me.

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 ---Adella on 11/19/06
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StevenG, do you have something of substance to say? That is, something that is backed up by Scripture and not your own judgemental theowaffle?
---ktisophilos on 9/14/07


With respect, I don't understand the point you are making.
---Ed on 8/18/07

Ktisophilos: I suggest taking a year sabbatical from the things of man and meditate on the words of God, just you and the Holy Spirit without concordances, novels and other Christian reference books. You will definaet'y come out a mature Christian and a very personal relationship with God himself. But do it quickly for the end is near and will need to ask him if you are worthy enought to protect you and your family from the tribulation.
---Steveng on 8/17/07

Ed: "And that parts of atoms literally disappear into nothinginess and then reappear out of nothinginess.

And you are absolutely, positively sure about that, eh? Could our technology see the head of a pin or even a basketball 30 million light years away? Were you taken near a black hole by your uncle's UFO to watch it dissapear? We humans haven't scratched the surface of Earths knowledge let alone the cosmos.
---Steveng on 8/17/07


With respect, i think God gave us the gift of common sense. How can the opening chapter of the Bible contain all the information needed to understand the nature of creation, the universe and evolution.
I mean we now know that black holes are for ever imploding into themselves (but into what). And that parts of atoms literally disappear into nothinginess and then reappear out of nothinginess.
---Ed on 8/17/07


We don't whether something as elementary as light is a particle or a ray. We know of gravity but we don't really know what it is. Why the planets don't fly of their axies and into space. Astro-phsyicists now believe that there must be more than three dimensions to explain the mysteries of the universe. The point is that the universe is an incredibly sophisticated place. It is also mysterious. And science it showing to us just how great and magnificent creation is.
---Ed on 8/17/07


None of us can ever hope to discover all the mysteries of the universe and creation in this life. How on earth where the first Jews going to understand the nature of the universe and creation (without even the beginning of our knowledge of mathematics and science in general). And the point is: we are not meant to know everything. There are some things that are a mystery. That will always be a mystery (unless God, of course, decides otherwise).
---Ed on 8/17/07


We should be grateful for the science that reveals to us the mystery, the power and the beauty of the universe and creation, and leave it at that. Rather than trying to put the nature of creation in a box - the opening chapter, is not about understanding the nature of the universe and creation, but it is about the significance of it in our lives, in regards to our relationship with God and others).
---Ed on 8/17/07


And regarding Adam and Eve, evolution in no way detracts from Adam and Eve once literally really existing (perhaps they were the first Jews with a full understanding of good and evil and of their sinful nature). It is the nature of orginal sin that is important that is important, and that is as true to us, now, as it was to the first Jews.

(this is just my opinion by the way).
---Ed on 8/17/07

StevenG, please spare us the theowaffle. How exactly is it showing love to God by denying what He has said?
---Ktisophilos on 8/16/07

Alan, capitalistic multinationals have done much more to alleviate poverty in the third world than foreign aid.

They often pay twice the going rate in their areas, and locals queue up or even bribe to become an employee. And the "sweatshops" have better conditions than the other employment available.
---Ktisophilos on 8/17/07

Allister Heath pointed out

"Multinationals help to transfer capital, resources, skills and technical know-how across borders. Workers trained by global companies are invariably more productive than those in local firms, and when the workers move on they take their knowledge with them, helping to spread better working practices, increased productivity and higher living standards."
---Ktisophilos on 8/17/07

Alan, how was Warwick contradicting himself? The traditional view of the church, based on the Bible rather than uniformitarian "science", is that God created in six ~24-hour days. This time sequence was for our benefit, as Ex. 20:8-11, and Jesus' statement that the Sabbath was made for man.

God is of course outside time, but He created time. And it behooves us to believe the time frame in which He created.
---Ktisophilos on 8/17/07

Since humans cannot comprehend God, He and man use figurative language - metaphors and similes - to describe him.

"Thy righteousness is like the great mountains."

"...the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings."

God as a husband to Israel,
Christ as a groom to the Church.

"A day is like a thousand years" simply explains that God time is not our time and vice versa. The lifetime of one man is a blink in God's eye.
---Steveng on 8/16/07

AlanofUK-the word day in English has 3 meanings:

1) Vague period of time- every dog has its day. In this usage day means time.
2) Daylight, as in yesterday I spent the day at the beach. I went in the morning & returned late afternoon.
3) 24hrs -when we use a number with the word day we always mean a 24hr day.

Hebrew is the same.
---Warwick on 8/15/07

2 Peter 8 says .with the LORD a day is LIKE a thousand years & a thousand years LIKE a day. This doesnt prove Genesis1days arent 24 hrs as it isnt saying a day is a thousand years or a thousand years is a day. It says each is like the other with the Lord, who is outside of time.

Genesis was written for us demonstrating He alone is Creator & how He did it. Its written in terms we time-dwellers understand.
---Warwick on 8/15/07

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Genesis1:5 ..And there was evening & there was morning-the first day. This is day no. 3 above, always 24hrs. In case were slow to comprehend God says his day is composed of evening & morning.

The word day in 2Peter is used in reference to God whilst in Genesis 1 its used in reference to us living in His literal day by day creation.

Those who wont accept the days as days do so against grammatical rules & for extra-Biblical reasons.
---Warwick on 8/15/07

Jesus believed Genesis.
---Andrea on 8/15/07

Warwick & Mods.
I misjudged! The reply was published, but about 8 hours after submission, which is a very unusually long time
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07

Warwick ... Just to let you know I am not, in Mike's phrase, "bailing"
CN has chosen not to publish my response.
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07

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Warwick ... "God is outside of time but we aren't"
Then you contradict yourself by saying "This has nothing to do with the days of creation in Genesis"
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07

ktisophilos: "Right, loving God with our minds means believing what He has revealed about the origin of the universe, order of creative acts.

Doing is NOT knowing. How can you possibly DO the universe? How can you show your love toward God? By knowing about the age of the universe? God forbid. You would surely lose out on life. If youhad a child of your won, would you show love by telling him about the universe? Our love toward God depends on the here and now, not the yesteryer.
---Steveng on 8/14/07

MarkB-in 1 Co. ch.15 Paul explains the Gospel, referring to the historical events of Genesis 1 as it's foundational to the Gospel as Jesus came to die & rise again because of these real events alone. Any attempt to divorce Jesus death & resurrection from Genesis is a denial of Scripture- -for since death came through a man the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will me made alive.
---Warwick on 8/14/07

Note Paul was the apostle to Gentiles therefore needing to explain about the foundation of sin & the Gospel whereas the Jews already knew of these things.

As regards 2 Peter 3:8 you havent understood my point- when we place a number with the word day eg, the first day we always mean 24hr days. I know of no exception to this. Just to make sure we got the point God added the evening & the morning- to each successive day.
---Warwick on 8/14/07

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The verse in Peter does not contain a number with the word day nor 'evening & morning' so is a different use of the word 'day' than in Genesis. Also a careful reading of the chapter reveals this is about those impatient for Jesus' return. This isn't saying a day is a thousand years or vice versa but that God is outside of time but we aren't. This has nothing to do with the days of creation in Genesis.
---Warwick on 8/14/07

Steveng: "Paying more of your attention on the creation instead of the creator."

That means believing what He has revealed, surely! Long age beliefs are the result of allowing man-made dating techniques to trump His revelation.

"I believe we should spend more time DOING the two commandments spoken by Jesus in the NT and God in the OT."

Right, loving God with our minds means believing what He has revealed about the origin of the universe, order of creative acts.
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

Jack: "And several places in the Bible make it clear that God does not count time as we do."

Obviously, because God is outside time. But He inspired the Bible to teach us (2 Tim. 3:15-16), so the time measures He revealed must be man's days, unless otherwise stated.

But in Ex. 20:8-11, where the days of Creation Week plus 7th day of rest are the model for the working week of 6 work days plus 1 rest day. So the days of Creation Week must also be normal-length days.
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

Jack: "I agreee, God created the heavens and the earth, and I will not go beyond that."

So what gives you the right to stop at Genesis 1:1, and ignore Genesis 1:2 ff. right up to Ch. 11? All this is inspired Scripture.

IOW, why believe Gen. 1:1 that God created the heavens and earth, but not believe the rest where He explains the order of events, origin of man, sin and death, and the judgements of the Flood and Babel?
---ktisophilos on 8/13/07

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Warwick, umm please do not say unbiblical about the day being 24 hours, rather say i think why b/c 2 peter 3:8:
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
Read it in context and you will see it refers to time...

Next creation is not the foundation for why we need jesus, it was what happened w/ adam and eve and sin, and also what happened when God gave moses the law...
---mark_B. on 8/13/07

Alan God has defined His creation days as being of 24hrs. However you have trouble accepting that numbered days each having an evening & a morning are 24 hour days. How could God have better defined a 24 hour day? He says His work 6, rest one is His template for our work six & rest one week- 10 Commandments.

I think you have accepted a long-ages view (not found in Scripture) & therefore are forced to reinterpret the meaning of days.
---Warwick on 8/13/07

Remember the facts of Genesis 1 are the foundation for & cause of the need of Jesus death & resurrection. How much Scripture can we reject or reinterpret before we are rebelling against God? Jesus took Genesis 1 as history & said- if you dont believe me about earthly things how can you believe me about heavenly things? On what basis do we choose which part of His Word we believe?
---Warwick on 8/13/07

Do you say Andrea that a person has to believe in the 144 hour creation to be saved?
I thought it was all about Faith in the promise of Jesus?
---alan_of_UK on 8/13/07

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Your obsession with Roman Catholicism is not healthy. Provide us with the evidence that the Roman Catholic Curch is more or less a supporter of evolution theory than other denominations? Like people from other denomiantions Roman Catholics come with mixed views about the evolutionary theory.
---Ed on 8/13/07

Many people will die without God bc of the theory of evolution. Christians do not need to remain ignorant of the facts.
The Bible stands on the fact that it is the revelation of God Himself It cannot be wrong.
And there are many super intelligent people who study evo and think its just an explanation of how the earth would have come about if there were no God.

It is the religion of atheists and the pope.
---Andrea on 8/13/07

This surely is a frivolous debate just by reading the posts. Debating evolution and the age of the universe/earth causes a division among Christians and name-calling. Paying more of your attention on the creation instead of the creator. I don't see an evolution/age commandment. Debating an issure that can't be proven will not get you into heaven. I believe we should spend more time DOING the two commandments spoken by Jesus in the NT and God in the OT.
---Steveng on 8/12/07

What must be remembered is fundamentalist have redefined what science is, redefined to support their own idiosyncratic world-view. It is a redefined science by, for them, alone. Objective evidence is accepted, rejected based on biblical literalism, period. Anthropology, biology, paleontology, geology, archeology, etc etc etc do not even exist as sciences, according to fundamentalist Christians. Occasional anomalies in say dating are seen-touted as failure of said sciences.
---MikeM on 8/12/07

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No one has dealt with the issue itself. Google Lascaux cave paintings these were painted during the last ice age in France.
The last ice age ended 12,000 years ago. In eastern Washington there is a Pleistocene site with clear evidence on man their during the late period of the Pleistocene. If you are afraid of science, do not visit the site or 10,000 others like it. The conflict is not between the Bible and science/evolution, but between fundamentalism and everything else.
---MikeM on 8/12/07

BEAUTY. The Bible is obviously full of beauty. One of the most beautiful images is of the The Three Wise Men, believed to have been astronomers, following the night sky and the star of David to the manger where Our Lord was born with shepherds and angels. The Three Wise Men - from the world of science and the shepherds from the world of pastoral simplicy merging to give honour to God. God: The Master Scientist and Artist - The Creator.
---Ed on 8/12/07

VIOLENCE. And the beautiful image of the birth of our Lord is soon shattered by the violence of the killing of the innocents. Reminding us of the violence of the world. And that Our Lord will face humiliation, persecution and execution. Our Lord, Who is God, and at One with The Creator. Creator of the universe in all its power, beauty and sophistication. God is all-powerful and could have smote down the executioners of Christs as if they were flies. But He didn't. God is so powerful. And yet humble.
---Ed on 8/12/07

Today they are still digging mammoths out of the ice, and the occassional human too. There have been several ice ages with warmer periods in between, and humans have been around for one or more of them. The last one occurred before recorded history (and the Bible as "written" word), but that does not mean that they were not experienced by God's people. Of course, being more centrally located, they would have been less affected by the ice ages than their northern cousins and southern cousins.
---lorra8574 on 8/11/07

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Don't let it confuse you. the last ice age was supposed to have ended approx. 10,000 yrs ago. That fits in well with Creationism. Even young earth creationist put the earth at around 15,000 or so. Many creationists believe in an old earth this is perfectly acceptable with biblical beliefs.

Its the man from the primordial ooze that is a problem for believers. Go to Answers in Genesis dot com or Creation dot com both good biblical creation sites that explain the theory of evolution and the Bible.
---Andrea on 8/11/07

MikeM bobs up here & there with the same old story that we who believe the Bible to be correct -is jest ol iggerant fundymentalists-geetar pluckers to a man!

What he knows but won't acknowledge is that evolution is a belief about the past which cannot be proved by the scientific method. The scientific method which has produced the most amazing life saving technology knows nothing of, nor needs belief in evolution to produce such technological marvels.
---Warwick on 8/11/07

"The claim is that man first came to the americas via a land bridge from Siberia 30,000 years ago during an 'ice age.'"

Read the MOD's comments, Helen.

"Moderator - If you believe that Carbon Dating is correct then your professor is correct. He would put Adam and Eve at 5 million years old. I believe the Land Bridge theory makes the most sense..."
---Bob on 8/11/07

"Moderator - Of course dinosaurs existed, however they are not mentioned in the Bible. There are bloggers here that believe the word dragon in the Bible proves that the Bible spoke of dinosaurs. That is a misunderstanding of the scriptures. Dragon in the Bible depending on the context means Satan, a whale or a crocodile, but not dinosaurs."
---Bob on 8/11/07

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Evolution in no way takes away from Creation. God created the universe. Full stop. The 6 days is an allegory. Adam and Eve is either allegorical of natural fall from grace, or they really did exist, but they were the first Jews in Israel to be have proper knowledge of good and evil. Evolution doesn't take away from this at all. What the scientists are showing us is just how sophisticated, magnificent and awesome God's creation really is. Let's not be like the Christians who thought the world was flat ..
---Ed on 8/11/07

"Moderator - After studying many fossils, being on digs of dinosaurs and understanding the evolution THEORY, I realise that there are too many scientific holes. If I were not a Christian, I would still consider evolution only a weak theory regardless if I believed in God."

Turn on the science channel, Helen, if you can't leave the house.
---Bob on 8/11/07

Helen, that was weird. Scientists extract ice samples and can determine when the Ice Age was here, major volcanic eruptions, weather disturbances. What planet are you living on? Do you ever read any scientific journals or watch the science channel?
Have you read any of the Moderator's comments about the age of the earth? Apparently not.
---Bob on 8/11/07

"Moderator - I don't believe the earth is 6,000 years old nor does the Bible. That Bible theory came from someone adding the ages of the people in the Bible from Genesis to the birth of Christ through today. Of course there are gaps. You don't really believe the theory that the earth is billions of years old on the other extreme side do you?"
---Bob on 8/11/07

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Helen, black and white thinking to this degree, is not normal.

"I do not believe that dinosaurs existed. And for them to walk the earth at the same time as man, well that just does not make sense.... they were so huge and if they were real I am sure that they would be mentioned in the Bible. So therefore they would have had to existed before man was created which does not line up with Scripture at all.
---Helen_5378 on 5/19/06"
---Bob on 8/11/07

The Bible doesn't mention that the speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s and that it is scientific fact that there are stars over 6,000 light years away. The Bible isn't the only source for truth. God gave us scientific reason. Thanks to this we know that God's creation is many times more sophisticated and magnificent than the creationists would have us believe. God gives us the gift of natural intelligence, as well as supernatural intelligence via the Holy Spirit.
---Ed on 8/11/07

Helen, do you ever leave the house?

Have you ever been to a museum and looked at a dinosaur's actual bones. Have you ever looked at a fossil of any kind?
Have you witnessed an actual dig or been to a site where archaeologists are excavating a dinosaur? I have. I live near one the world's largest sites for locating dinosaurs. A great museum is located nearby.
Helen, your ability to stick your head in the sand, baffles me.
---Bob on 8/11/07

Helen ... The Bible does not mention the Ice Age. So it did not happen, you say.
The Bible does not mention the occupation of Britain by the Romans (this occurred before the time of Christ. So it did not happen?
Nor presumably the previous occupants of the island, of which there is ample evidence. They were never here?
---alan_of_UK on 8/11/07

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It confuses you because there is nothing Biblical about an Ice Age, so it almost certainly did not happen. Plus the earth is most likely only around 6,000 years old.
---Helen_5378 on 8/11/07

MikeM, I accept science, but I reject the theory of evolution (molecules-to-man). I believe that true science confirms the Bible, rather than contradicts it.
---Kay on 12/4/06

Kay from all I have read and seen, fundmentalist claim anyone who accepts science is an 'evolutionist.'

One can make 'faith statements' about anything, beliefs etc.Science is based on empirical evidence, and sometimes empirical objective evidence goes against someones particular belief system. Natural selection is opposed only on an emotive level.
---MikeM on 12/3/06

MikeM, when someone mentions science do you automatically assume they are referring to evolution?
---Kay on 12/3/06

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Kay; Science and evolution are not the same? Where do you get that?
---MikeM on 12/2/06

Of course, MikeM .... Did I say I did not like the analogy? Actually, your description amused me, if you need it spelt out plainly.
---laure5759 on 11/26/06

"Lucifer, before becoming satan, had a throne on earth during an earlier age."

bob, where do you get this from?

"Science/evolution is theory only."

Science and evolution aren't the same.

---Kay on 11/27/06

Laure- Metaphors-You know what metaphor means?
---MikeM on 11/26/06

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MikeM - I was, um, talking about the actual animals ...
---laure5759 on 11/26/06

Bob; I believe science and faith)Bible) need not conflict. What you are offering is idiosyncratic rhetoric, unique to your religios would view, and one I never heard before. At that point, from your post I guess you are saying science does not exist, and if it does it is only a demonic manifestation. If that is so, why are you here? The cyber-world must then be evil.
---MikeM on 11/25/06

Isa.14:9-11,12-17, Ezek.28:1-10,11-19 gives us a peek into the "Luciferian" world of Gen.1:1. The world 'science' [I Tim.6:20-21] now know was much later [Gen.1:2>] during the (re)creation. Lucifer, before becoming satan, had a throne on earth during an earlier age. A throne means subjects, which no doubt are some of what you are speaking of. Science/evolution is theory only. The bible is factual. Walk in faith til your desired answer comes. "The Ark On Ararat" can help.
---bob6749[Elishama] on 11/24/06

laure-Yes live dinosaurs-


lizards-ex spouses,


chameleons-TV preachers

these are all part of the dinosaur family, around today in great numbers!
---MikeM on 11/24/06

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Only SINCE Adam and Eve sinned did death enter the world. Nature has suffered BECAUSE of Man's fall.

And yes, I have seen live dinosaurs - crocodiles, lizards, snakes, chameleons - these are all part of the dinosaur family.
---laure5759 on 11/24/06

MikeF 'Just call me an ostrich'- no argument there! The fallacy I see at work here is tautological, "it aint so cause it aint so." A priori assumption- total subjectivity over objective reality. That is they type of thinking that characterized what we called the 'dark ages.' It the holdout fellow on the jury who says, "dont CONFUSE me with all the facts, my mind is made up, I will vote with my heart."
---MikeM on 11/23/06

MikeF-(and all) The Bible is about salvation, it is not a biology book. But I see no conflict between biology(science) and scripture. the hard sciences go far far beyond simplistic Carbon dating. An arguemt for God comes from science itself. Its an ontologifal arguemtnt, as life did not come from nothing, as the complex APT/ADP process did not emerge from nothing. As to natural selection its obvious.
---MikeM on 11/23/06

** Jack - believing in evolution necessitates the requirement that creatures were made that never should have lived - maimed creatures that were experiments. It necessitates much death.**

Ever hear the word "extinction"?

Ever hear of dinosaurs--but have you ever seen a living one?

Saying that they drowned in the flood goes against what God said, which was to take some of all creatures on the ark.
---Jack on 11/23/06

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Amen Okebaram, " I know he used his word to create the world, calling forth things that were not to become."
---Christina on 11/22/06

Jack - believing in evolution necessitates the requirement that creatures were made that never should have lived - maimed creatures that were experiments. It necessitates much death.

I prefer to believe in a God Who knew what He was doing. Who created exactly what He wanted first time round. Who does not play games. To believe in a God who even controlled evolution is to believe in a sadistic God. God of the Bible is anything BUT sadistic!
---laure5759 on 11/21/06

Okebaram, good catch. We may even have the same heavenly Father (you too.).
---mikefl on 11/21/06

*I certainly don't pretend to know what mechanism He did or did not use.*

Well, you may not, but I do. I know he used his word to create the world, calling forth things that were not to become.
---Okebaram on 11/21/06

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Mike M., I base what I understand as scriptural research. From Adam to Noah's entering the Ark was about 2000 yrs. From the flood to Jesus's birth about 2000 yrs and from then to now, yep 2000 years. IF there were "hunter/gatherers before 6k yrs ago, they weren't human as God created in the Garden. I still don't trust carbon or other man "dating" methods on materials that have been on earth in some form since it was made. Just call me an ostrich (with a Bible in my wing).
---mikefl on 11/21/06

MikeM, shouldn't you and MikeFl be in agreement since you bear the same first name. :-)
---Okebaram on 11/21/06

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