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Jesuites Believe In Mary

Why do the Jesuites call themselves Jesuites when they don't believe salvation is thru Jesus but Mary?

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 ---bob on 11/23/06
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#2 "If anyone dares to say that Christ was a God-bearing man and not rather God in truth, being by nature one Son, even as 'the Word became flesh', and is made partaker of blood and flesh precisely like us, let him be anathema." St. Cyril of Alexandria
---Tina5349 on 12/15/06


Jack: "I'm not tolerant to untruths about either the full divinity or full humanity of our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Lies about Jesus come from the devil."

AGREED!!

Someone else was not so tolerant of Nestorianism.

"If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh, let him be anathema." St. Cyril of Alexandria
---Tina5349 on 12/15/06


Jack - I'm praying that the Lord will heal you. I am Borderline Diabetic. Happy Christmas.
---Helen_5378 on 12/13/06


Helen& Jack:Thank you for according this forum such levity.But what has sugar in the coffee, got to do with the price of tea in china, or coals in New castle.You two remind me of a loving tolerant couple gone sour like milk in a cup of tea.What is that saying True love never runs smooth.Yikes Guess I am a romantic.
---Emcee on 12/12/06


Hi Jack, I'm still praying for you. I hope your doing alright. Hope your sugar levels stay where they should. Merry Christmas.
---Jonie on 12/12/06




**Jack - Hi! Do you have sugar in your coffee? **

As a matter of fact, I'm diabetic (with a way of going hypoglycemic if I'm not careful) and use artificial sweetner when I drink coffee, which is seldom.
---Jack on 12/12/06


Wow I tunned on this to learn about the Jesuites,& once again came in to a brawl & learned nothing of the question asked. I only read this page-figured why even bother w/another. Jack whether Helen is right or wrong I am not even going there but Emcee is right U can disagree, argue, debate but why so harshly? How can U win her over since U think she is wrong, or help her along her way by coming out swinging like a boxer stung by a bee?
---Jeanne on 12/12/06


Jack - Hi! Do you have sugar in your coffee?
---Helen_5378 on 12/12/06


** Jack - So now I am a liar am I? **

You are not saying that what you believe--that Jesus did not take His human nature from Mary-- is the TRUTH, are you?

A lie about Jesus is a lie no matter who says it.
---Jack on 12/11/06


Jack ::"Lies about Jesus come from the devil"
Absolutely & the Devil needs an audience to be heard I am sure you do not want to cater to him.Jesus said "Begone satan you know that thou shalt worship the lord thy God & not tempt him"
---Emcee on 12/11/06




Jack - So now I am a liar am I? Why is it you who is the only one who speaks to me like that regarding what you think is wrong? There are others here who know what I believe at the moment, but praise God they are not rude or insulting.
---Helen_5378 on 12/11/06


Jack - If you think for one single moment that I would listen to anything you have to say you must be joking. There are others who have explained why I am wrong, but at least they have done it with patience and gentleness. You reek of hatred. But that doesn't matter because to your own master you either stand or fall.
---Helen_5378 on 12/11/06


Jack - "Contrition" for sin is Roman Catholic. The RCC teaches that you have to do something towards forgiveness of sin. Jesus teaches that all you have to do is ask Him to forgive and He will.
---Helen_5378 on 12/11/06


**Its a Godly trait to be tolerant my friend & you will understand.**

I'm not tolerant to untruths about either the full divinity or full humanity of our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Lies about Jesus come from the devil.
---Jack on 12/11/06


Jack::Perhaps if you read Matt.11;25-26it may throw some light on the situation.Its a Godly trait to be tolerant my friend & you will understand.
---Emcee on 12/10/06


** Jack - Is the "hell" you are talking about the same as the Lake of Fire in the Book of Revelation? I ask that because it would seem that nobody has gone there yet, not even the devil.**

I have answered this question numerous times, even on this blog, and I don't know why you don't understand it.

Read what I have written here in several places.
---Jack on 12/10/06


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**
Jack::Are you angry with Helen?Please dont be it is unbecoming**

Not at all. But she admits she "struggles" to accept Christian doctrines such as the Incarnation and Descent into Hell, and seems to things that basic Christian ideas such as contrition for sin is a Roman Catholic concept.
---Jack on 12/10/06


Jack - Is the "hell" you are talking about the same as the Lake of Fire in the Book of Revelation? I ask that because it would seem that nobody has gone there yet, not even the devil.
---Helen_5378 on 12/9/06


**Helen: In using a parallel Bible, I looked up Psalm 139:8, and it has the word Sheol in the New American Standard version and the word hell in the King James. They are one and the same place in the Bible. **

"Sheol" is one of the meanings covered by the English word "hel;" this is what I've been trying to get across to Helen.

When the ERV of 1881 was published, it used "sheol" in place of "hell" whenever the Hebrew used it, and it
---Jack on 12/8/06


Part 2:

When the ERV of 1881 was published, it put SHEOL in place of Hell in the OT whenever the Hebrew used it and Hades when used in the Greek NT.

Hardliners accused the translators of trying to soft-pedal hell. There was even a cartoon about it in contemporary papers.
---Jack on 12/8/06


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Jack::Are you angry with Helen?Please dont be it is unbecoming& the only one who sits & derives pleasure is SATAN.If I may intrude the A/Creed states 'He descended to the "DEAD" dead because the Gates of heaven had been sealed shut due to Mans sin.However Jesus's act of redeeming released those GOOD people saints & Babies who were denied access due to no fault of their own These are the Ones Jesus released from the dead & took them to heaven when He went back to the Father.
---Emcee on 12/8/06


Helen: In using a parallel Bible, I looked up Psalm 139:8, and it has the word Sheol in the New American Standard version and the word hell in the King James. They are one and the same place in the Bible.
---Madison1101 on 12/7/06


Jack - I said that Jesus did not descend into hell. I did not say that Jesus did not descend into Sheol. Sheol is not hell.
---Helen_5378 on 12/7/06


** Helen: Jack - ("When you're wrong about Jesus you're automatically wrong about everything else") -- I suppose you think you are the only one with the truth on here?

Is truth absolute or subjective?**

I believe that truth is absolute, and Helen's beliefs about the Incarnation and descent into Sheol are absolutely wrong.
---Jack on 12/7/06


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Helen: Jack - ("When you're wrong about Jesus you're automatically wrong about everything else") -- I suppose you think you are the only one with the truth on here?

Is truth absolute or subjective?
---grace3869 on 12/6/06


** Jack - ("When you're wrong about Jesus you're automatically wrong about everything else") -- I suppose you think you are the only one with the truth on here?**

I just know good and well that YOU don't have any truth because you admit elsewhere you "struggle" with basic Christian doctrine.
---Jack on 12/5/06


Jack::Helen is in warp drive & only answers those that she can wiggle out of, or she knows when she is nipped!!!she probably dosent remember now.Helen even the good thief admitted to his fault Dont let Pride stand in your way.To err is human to forgive is divine.You will still be a little sister& I for one will be the first to ensure that no one will condemn you,as I am sure al here are good honest men who remembers Jesus'swords I also do not accuse you.
---Emcee on 12/5/06


Helen ... You have said on numerous occasions that Jesus was "placed" in Mary's womb, and that she was not His real mother.
I used the word "inserted" to show in plain basic and perhaps crude practical terms just what it is you claim.
But it is made nonsense by the fact that we are told Mary conceived and bore Jesus
---AlanUKqu?ent5969 on 12/5/06


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Helen,
Alan is refering to the only option to Jesus being Mary's true son, surrogacy. Either her ovum was fertilized by a supernatural act of creation (God provided the chromosomes to go with her own) or God put in her a fertilized ovum with none of her genetic material needed.

I have given you very solid scriptural reasons why surrogacy was not an option. Can you understand why it is not? why he had to her real son.
---Bruce5656 on 12/5/06


Jack - You reckon we don't have a sin nature! How then did you know when you were a little boy to tell a lie for the first time?
---Helen_5378 on 12/5/06


AlanUkquent - What do you mean "Jesus inserted into her womb"?
---Helen_5378 on 12/5/06


Jack - ("When you're wrong about Jesus you're automatically wrong about everything else") -- I suppose you think you are the only one with the truth on here?
---Helen_5378 on 12/5/06


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**
If Mary was a surrogate, than Jesus would have had no earthly origins as to the flesh. He would be like a descendant of Eve (human) but not truly human.**

Quite right, Bruce.

This would be the heresy of Docetism--that Jesus only APPEARED to have a human body, but was not really fully human.

It's related to Manicheeism, which says that matter is intrinsically evil.
---Jack on 12/5/06


**
Helen::"Jesus got His flesh from Mary. I was NOT taught that.hadnt heard it before!!
If so may I ask from where you learnt this false doctrine & why do you cling to it inspite of repeated Clarifications Biblical.& by so many.**

It's standard Christian teaching. "Incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary" as the Nicene Creed puts it.

I hope you have better luck finding out where Helen thinks Jesus got His flesh than most of us have had.
---Jack on 12/4/06


**If Jesus did get His flesh from Mary, then He would have had the sin nature.**

There's no such thing as a "sin nature." Sin is NOT part of our original ontology, but an add-on.

But then, when you're wrong about Jesus, you're automatically wrong about everything else.
---Jack on 12/4/06


Helen::"Jesus got His flesh from Mary. I was NOT taught that.hadnt heard it before!!
If so may I ask from where you learnt this false doctrine & why do you cling to it inspite of repeated Clarifications Biblical.& by so many.Is it right to continue spreading a doctrine that is FALSE.?
---Emcee on 12/4/06


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PART TWO:
The one thing that was unique about Jesus conception was that there was no man invovled. Therfore, it must be the absence of natural procreation that allowed Jesus to be born sinless.

Secondly, we are told Psalms 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Again a reference to human procreation and the transmission of the sin nature.
---Bruce5656 on 12/4/06


PART ONE:
Helen, The sin nature is passed on by human procreation. Jesus was not the result of human procreation. Therefore he did not have a sin nature. We know this by deduction: As has been amply demonstrated it was necessary for the messiah to be a member of the human race (not like a human but a descendant of Eve).
---Bruce5656 on 12/4/06


Helen ,, Please supply scriptural evidence that Mary did not conceive, but had Jesus inserted ito her womb.
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 12/4/06


Jack - It is not that I refuse to believe that Jesus got His flesh from Mary. I have not been taught that, and hadn't heard it before until here on the Blogs. If Jesus did get His flesh from Mary, then He would have had the sin nature. It seems to get very complicated. I believe that He took on human flesh in Mary's womb, but that her egg was not used.
---Helen_5378 on 12/3/06


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Thank you, augua. Where Jesus got His physical body is VERY important, because it has to do with who Jesus is.

Helen is denying His full humanity. And you will noticed that I've given scriptures to defend the traditional Christian belief that He received it from the Virgin Mary--belief held not only by Roman Catholics, but Eastern Christians and classical Protestants.

Helen has offered NONE for her alternative belief in a surrogate rent-a-womb arrangement.
---Jack on 12/3/06


*Augusta - Soul sleep? No way. When a saint of God dies, the spirit is immediately with the Lord but their body stays down here awaiting the rapture and the first resurrection.*

Well stop calling the saints in heaven dead then, Helen.
Saints Alive!! :)
---augua9846 on 12/3/06


*Augusta - ("Catholics don't conjure the dead to predict the future") -- The devil does a perfect job of that by conjuring up Mary to supposedly appear to people.*

Well we can't help what the devil does.

Don't worry about Mary now, Helen. She can't save you anyway, all she can do is lead you to Christ. So instead go study the posts by Jack, Bruce & Alan on Christs' human nature. It is very important.
---augua9846 on 12/3/06


**If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, then why did He not refer to Himself as "Son of Mary" instead of Son of Man?**

The word the KJV and other English Bibles render as "man" is NOT the gender specific male (anir) but the word for generic human being (anthropos).

Tell us, Helen: If Jesus did not get His flesh from the Virgin Mary, where did He get it? Give scriptures for your answer. Why do you refuse to believe it?

(BTW--I'm not a Roman Catholic.)
---Jack on 12/3/06


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Jack - No, Jesus did not get His flesh from Joseph. That is impossible, because Joseph and Mary did not have marital relations until after Jesus was born. Also, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, not Joseph. What is FIE?
---Helen_5378 on 12/3/06


Bruce, yes Jesus is the seed of David and many times referred to as the son of David. However, if you look up the lineage of Jesus in Matthew and else where, it clearly states that Jesus is descended from Abraham, eventually David then onto Joseph...so why is that so?
---Christina on 12/3/06


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and
dwelt among us,
The flesh of Jesus was made out of God, thats why he told Phillip when you see me you see the father, John 14:9 and 15:24 jesus said because they saw his works and hated him they had seen the Father also and hated him.
---Exzucuh on 12/2/06


** Jack - Can you supply Scripture/s where it says that Jesus did take His flesh from Mary? Also, why is it so important to you that He got His flesh from her? If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, then why did He not refer to Himself as "Son of Mary" instead of Son of Man?**

And just WHERE do you think Jesus got His flesh? Scripture to prove your point, please.

I've answered why it's imporant to believe this.
---Jack on 12/2/06


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Part 2:

**If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, then why did He not refer to Himself as "Son of Mary" instead of Son of Man?**

Do you really mean that Jesus got His Flesh from Joseph? FIE, madam!
---Jack on 12/2/06


PART ONE:
Helen,
The reason it is important that Jesus was a ltteral descendant from a human mother and that that mother was not a surrogate is because the bible does say so.

The first messanic promise given to Eve was that one of her descendants would defeat Satan. Gen 3:15

We are told that a virgin would concieve. Isa 7:14. In what sense could a surrogate be said to have concieved?
---Bruce5656 on 12/2/06


PART TWO:
We are told that Jesus was "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh," Romans 1:3

If Mary was a surrogate, than Jesus would have had no earthly origins as to the flesh. He would be like a descendant of Eve (human) but not truly human.
---Bruce5656 on 12/2/06


PART THREE:
In the OT God appeared to people in the form of a man. Gen 18:1-3 (We call such an appearance a theophony) Josh 5:13-15.

Helen, here is a question I would like you to answer. If Jesus did not have to be fully human (a literal descendant of Eve) then why the virgin birth at all? Why not just have Jesus be found as an infant in a way similar to how the Egyptian princess found Moses. Why not have him appear as an adolescent or even a grown man?
---Bruce5656 on 12/2/06


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** Jack - Can you supply Scripture/s where it says that Jesus did take His flesh from Mary?**

I've answered this quesiton before the first time you asked it. Luke 1:31: "Behold, you shall conceive". Matthew 1:20-21 says substantially the same thing. When a woman conceives, she provides the ovum.

If Jesus did not take His body from the Virgin Mary, as the Scripture says, then He is not descended from Adam, and not a true human being.
---Jack on 12/2/06


Part 3:

I ask all here to look at Luke 1:41-43, at how Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit to call Mary "Mother of my Lord", in effect, "Amma YHVH--Mother of Jehovah". Who is the Lord but God?

And to anyone who knows the Bible, "Son of man" is a Messianic title from the OT, asserting the Messiah's full humanity.

Where else and how else could Jesus have received His human nature? Please give scripture to prove your point.
---Jack on 12/2/06


Part 4:

I just thought: If, as Helen falsely insists, Jesus did not receive His human body from the Virgin Mary, then He was not the real sibling of the "brothers and sisters" referred to elsewhere in the Gospels, now was He?

But then, He could not have been a descendant of Adam after the flesh--and hence not OUR brother either, making Galatians 4:4 lying.

Nor was He even subject to the law (since Jewishness is inherited from the mother), if Helen is right (which she isn't).
---Jack on 12/2/06


Helen ... You do not need anyone here to tell you where to find the scripture that tells us that Mary conceive, and later bore Jesus.
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 12/1/06


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Jack - Can you supply Scripture/s where it says that Jesus did take His flesh from Mary? Also, why is it so important to you that He got His flesh from her? If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, then why did He not refer to Himself as "Son of Mary" instead of Son of Man?
---Helen_5378 on 12/1/06


Jack - Jesus did come in the flesh. While here on earth, Jesus was fully God and fully human. I do not understand all the fuss as to how the Word became flesh.

The RCC is full of idolatry through and through. Ask the Lord to open your eyes to this. It is guaranteed that if you do come to see it you will be very shocked.
---Helen_5378 on 12/1/06


Augusta - You sure do a good job of proclaiming all the falsehoods of the RCC here on these Blogs. If you were to honestly and truthfully compare the teachings of the RCC with Scripture you would be shocked at all of it's heresies.
---Helen_5378 on 12/1/06


Augusta - ("Catholics don't conjure the dead to predict the future") -- The devil does a perfect job of that by conjuring up Mary to supposedly appear to people.
---Helen_5378 on 12/1/06


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Madison ::The word pray,means to ask earnestly.It is not worship as you were being told to ASK to emulate the mother of God following your confession. If your reread your reply you will see your own misunderstanding of the direction given you by the priest.she was your example which you were being asked to strive for.
---Emcee on 12/1/06


Helen: Nowhere in Scripture will you find that statues will draw us to God.

And neither did I say that statues will draw you to God.
---grace3869 on 12/1/06


Augusta - Soul sleep? No way. When a saint of God dies, the spirit is immediately with the Lord but their body stays down here awaiting the rapture and the first resurrection.
---Helen_5378 on 12/1/06


Augusta and Grace - How is it that neither of you have been able to give an answer to my question? (Helen)

I try to always answer your questions. If I didn't answer it then I didn't see it. On the other hand it doesn't really matter if I answer your questions or not - you just dismiss what I say anyway.
---grace3869 on 12/1/06


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*You have a total misunderstanding of the Biblical meaning of alive in Christ. Alive in Christ is those who are on earth right now.*

Helen, I know what this verse means. And I have never used this verse in reference to the saints in heaven.

I have used this one however...

"Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death." (Jo 8:51)

Why do you believe in soul sleep of all things? Are you a JW?
---augua9846 on 12/1/06


*I'm glad it gives hope...Just look to the Lord Jesus, our hope is in Him!!! He really IS awesome*

Amen. :)

*Praying for you.*

Thanks, Christina. Any & all prayer is greatly appreciated.
---augusta on 12/1/06


** Augusta and Grace - How is it that neither of you have been able to give an answer to my question?**

When you answer our questions about where the Bible teaches that Jesus did NOT take His flesh from the Virgin Mary, you'll be in a position to ask why others don't answer your questions.
---Jack on 12/1/06


** Jack - What do you mean "you don't even believe in the real Jesus"? **

Because you don't beleive that Jesus is fully human, being a descendant of Adam (which can only be through Mary) according to the flesh, therefore you don't believe in the real Jesus.

Another question: Why do you WANT to believe that RC's are committing idolatry?
---Jack on 12/1/06


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Part 2:
**As I have said before what you proclaim on these Blogs is exactly the same as RCC teaching.**

This is not just Roman Catholic teaching. It's the teaching of classsical Protestantism concerning the Incarnation.

Why don't you beleive the Bible, Helen?
---Jack on 12/1/06


Augusta, That is awesome, Christina. That gives me even more hope for my family too.

I'm glad it gives hope...Just look to the Lord Jesus, our hope is in Him!!! He really IS awesome

Praying for you.
---christina on 12/1/06


** *Augusta: If the RCC does not allow idol worship, why do they kneel before statue**

And if a person knees by his bed to say his bedtime prayers, is he praying to his bed?

If the RCC practices idol worship then Baptists say prayers to pieces of cloth.
---Jack on 12/1/06


*Augusta - As you should know by now, I have no desire whatsoever to go to any catholic sources for information. I stick to the Bible thanks.*

Helen, if you were going to research the teachings of the Methodist Church or the Foursquare Church you know you wouldn't go to the "bible". You would go to a pastor of their church or their website.

And this is what I meant by 'just the truth'. The truth regarding Catholic teachings.
---augusta on 12/1/06


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2. This sums up Mary's role "His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it." (Jn 2:5)
---augusta on 12/1/06


*Augusta: If the RCC does not allow idol worship, why do they kneel before statues..*

Madison, kneeling in of itself isn't worship. Just as prayer is not worship. It can be a part of worship but it is not the same as worship and not all prayer is part of worship. Here's just one example in Scripture: So they told the king, saying, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed down before the king with his face to the ground. 1Kings 1:23
---augusta on 12/1/06


2. Another: And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

*That is idol worship, according to the Bible*

All worship in a Catholic Church is directed towards God alone. There is only one form of worship in the Catholic Church and that is the Mass. From the catechism (note bold):

I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"
---augusta on 12/1/06


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