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Woman Usurping Men At Church

What is your opinion on women in church. Should they be usurping authority over the man by preaching or teaching? Shouldn't we listen to God and believe He will supply His own worker as He did for Abraham? (answer with bible texts please)

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 ---lily on 12/1/06
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1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Can't get clearer than that Women must be silent (QUIET) in church and Not TEACH or USurp the man of God. Nope no husband there so it's men in General.
---Carla5754 on 7/29/08


Well, I don't have my Bible with me because I am in my bedroom on my lap-top. Get back on this mabe tomorrow. note: I do have a Bible in here but I am too lazy to get up and study on God and women and why He uses them cause He does use women. Infact, God loves women very much. This is in the Bible. One woman He used to save a nation. I believe Easter was her name. Paul used women, also,Some will take ONE SCRIPTURE and make a doctrine out of it, I guess. God pays no attention, because God still does as He pleases, and God uses whomever He pleases, in anyway, shape, or form. Got it?
---catherine on 7/29/08


Secondly, before God their is neither male nor female, but all one in Him--Gal 3:28. God always will use whom He deemeth best and we must never reject His vessel, even if it be a donkey, Numbers 22:28-30. Our part will be to humble ourselves and pray, being reproved of Him.
---Wayne87 on 7/27/08


The bigger question is should Christian women have any authority over men at anytime? Should a Christian women enforce laws of the state; should she command troops in war? Isn't Paul's guidance in Timothy 2:12-14 based on reasons before "the Church" existed? Likewise, shouldn't a women dress modestly at all times?
---stu on 1/16/07


Mary...Vashti's conduct...was that of rebellion...I do not commend rebellion.

Vashti acted [or refused to act] out of defiance. What was this womban trying to prove? That she could disobey the King's orders at her own whim...?...What an unfeminine example she was setting for the other ladies...and the king knew it...at which time...he agreed with his advisers...that Vashti was on her way out...or else other womben might follow her terrible lead...Rahel
---Reiter on 1/2/07




Hi Racheal; boy, this is getting to me lol! While I agree that Esther was called for the purpose, I STILL say Vashti had the COURAGE to say in effect "I'm not just an object of sexuality, but a human"; she paid dearly but it did lead the way for Esther :)
---Mary on 12/30/06


Some believe it took 'guts' for Vashti to defy the system and dishonor her King...I say it was just stupidity. The Appropriate Feminine Standard was set by Queen Esther...who approached the King with reverence...who gained her Influence via winning the King's Heart, not through sowing rebellion. Those who admire Vashti enough to follow her lead...must be willing to accept her demise...the Fall that follows haughtiness. Rebellion has its high price.

...rachel...

---Reiter on 12/9/06


Reiter: hmmm...I'll grant you that Esther was the better woman and that God used her, but I STILL think people are too hard on poor Vashti for taking a stand. She had guts, especially considering the times she lived in; anyway, God bless you
---Mary on 12/7/06


Mary...let's not encourage women to follow Vashti...Vashti didn't make such a Good choice...I don't commend her...her rebellion was Folly...there is nothing worth praising about her behavior...the best to do with Vashti...is learn from her...by making her a model...of what women should Not be...rachel...
---Reiter on 12/7/06


I just want to add that I sure wish more Christian men (and yes, women too, including me) were more like Jesus! Jesus didn't Lord it over anyone and He had EVERY right to; men are human like women are and boy, can they show it! :(
---Mary on 12/7/06




I think women are equal and vital to the ministry of christ. I've never questioned it because that is how I was raised. our faith tradition has had women pastors for over 300 years. I have been lead by many wonderful women. those that oppose the ministry of women tend to over look the fact that Paul also praised women in ministry. the cultural context has been lost when he opposes their ministry.
---Jared on 12/7/06


The only man who truely is given authority over a woman is her husband. Only husbands were given rule over the wife in Genesis 3:16, it therefore is impossible for a woman to usurp authority over other men in the church, because they don't have rule over woman to begin with,of course Pastor in church has leadership role over both men and women alike and that should be respected.
---Darlene_1 on 12/7/06


Jared: "Also scripture says that we are one in christ. Not Jew/Greek, slave/Free, Male/female. we are all equal..."

You are taking these verses out of context. We are all heirs to the promises, but there must be a hierarchy in the body of Christ or then we are equal to God. That is women must be submissive to man and man to God.
---Steveng on 12/6/06


Wow! Some interesting points made on both sides here! I personally, however, DEFEND Vashti--she did not allow herself to be used as a mere object and she paid the price; of course, this did allow God's will to be done in the life of Esther--but Vashti was BRAVE!
---Mary on 12/6/06


greetings.where there is the spirit of the Lord there is liberty.Does God approve either as having spiritual authority ?If so ,does either retain liberty?Is this the spirit of the Lord for either to usurp authority over the other?There is more than enough room on planet earth for all to reach out to their fellows without sectarian bondage.
---earl on 12/6/06


**Shouldn't we listen to God and believe He will supply His own worker as He did for Abraham?**

Lily, what do you mean by this puzzling sentence?
---Jack on 12/6/06


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Brother Mike...your wife is a wise woman to understand that it is Good to be Submissive...submission is empowering to women...but not every woman wants to access that potential influence. Rebellion is self-defeating. Vashti's way is the highway to nowhere good...i'm glad you have a well working relationship...which is not so common anymore...peace...rachel
---Reiter on 12/5/06


God has used many women to encourage the church and the Jewish faith. Look at all the greetings and thanks at the end of the epistles. Also scripture says that we are one in christ. Not Jew/Greek, slave/Free, Male/female. we are all equal God will use who is willing. in many cases women are more willing than men.
---Jared on 12/5/06


Even thought every page of the Bible from beginning to end shows that men lead and women are "servants" - although joint heirs.

But remember what Jesus said about whoever wants to lead must be a servant.

Besides, who are the REAL rulers of the Earth? Mothers. For whoever rocks the cradle, rules the world. Unfortunately, for the past 100 years, women have missed their chance.
---Steveng on 12/4/06


Rickey, please see Acts20:17,"And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus & called the elders of the church." Then vs28,"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, & to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." Now read 1Tim.3:1-7. A bishop must be a "husband" & a "he". There are other scriptures also. Scriptural authority is male. Women aren't lesser humans, it's about placement.
---mikefl on 12/4/06


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Sis. Rachel, thank you for expounding there. I respect placement and admire strength in God's people. We all have our burdens to bear yet it helps so much to know where man and woman can share those "tasks" with each other. My wife and I are very comfortable with God's arrangement also.
---mikefl on 12/4/06


Mikefl...Emotions are very strong in us [women]...also...we [women] receive messages that contradict The Word...Feminism teaches us that we are 'oppressed' if we remain submissive, honor men, and keep our virtue...even if a woman says she does not follow feminism...it is impossible for her mind not to be affected by this force...just slightly...the best thing for us [as women] to do...is keep our eyes on Esther and shun the ways of Vashti...An Esther is a Model of Righteous Femininity...rachel...
---Reiter on 12/4/06


No scripture states that a woman shouldn't be a leader in a church. It does state that the woman should be submissive to her husband. Ephesians 4:11 says, " He called some....". It doesn't say some men or women; just some(man or woman). In 1Corinthians 14 Paul was telling the women to keep silent because they were speaking to their spouse causing an interuption.
---Rickey on 12/3/06


StevenG "it's written that women should never have authority over man"
Where is that written, with the "never"?.
---AlanUKquent5969 on 12/3/06


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What would happen if man wanted to be equal to God? What would happen if women became equal to man? for it's written that women should never have authority over man. So what do you call a women preaching to man? It's unnatural. It's unBiblical. Women, since the beginning, is to serve man (and not on a silver platter). Not the other way around. Joint heirs (as in a marriage), yes, but not have authority.
---Steveng on 12/2/06


Women in church? Yes, in keeping with scriptural order just as men & children must. Usurping authority? No, there is written church order from God. Listen to God and believe...? Absolutely, if it is ever up to humans instead of God, we are in real trouble... There are many scriptures on church/family order. They are very plainly written. God's reason for this order is given. This subject has been discussed many times here but some find excuses not to heed God's word so they can follow their emotions.
---mikefl on 12/2/06


NO Lily...gosh...you brought up such a relevant point...well...a woman should not usurp a man's authority...but...what if she is called to teach or prophesy or...whatever the calling may be...Still...there is a certain Order or Authority...a Woman does have Influence...But within the Order...the Influence that a Woman in Leadership has was more than likely given to her by the Word of a Man...so how conceited and forgetful of her to think she is Now Above that man...does this make any sense... rachel...
---Reiter on 12/2/06


The word explains that women should not teach Men. Men/women are watering down the gospel to suit themselves re-writing the word as never before. Women have asked for the leading role and taken it regardless of what is written in the Bible. It's not just about women preaching but Disobedience on a large scale to the word of God. But we know these things will manifest themselves because it is written about the times we are now living in.
---Carla5754 on 12/2/06


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Of course women should not usurp authority over men. However, that said, there is a role for women in teaching women, and if men choose to sit under a woman's preaching, he is free to do so. Scripture cites places in the early church where women minitered.
---Madison1101 on 12/2/06


You first ask for my opinion and then tell me to answer with Bible text.

I'm not sure which you want, but I think I see the point you are making.
---Pharisee on 12/1/06


Just because someone is preaching and teaching doesn't mean they are usurping authority. If women are given the oportunity to teach and preach how can that be usurping? We have women preach and teach in our church but they don't usurp any ones authority. The authority is in the Word whether spoken by male or female, young or old.
---john on 12/1/06


Firstly, Paul is very clear that women are not to usurp authority over men in church--1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and 11:3, any more than men are to try to usurp authority in the place of God. The spirit of usurpation is wrong, whether it is by man or woman. Just because God may call a woman to take the lead when needed, does not mean they are usurping anything. No spirit of usurpation in Deborah because of Barak's lack of faith--Judges 4:4-9.
---Wayne87 on 12/1/06


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