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Why Did God Give Us Laws

Why did God bothered giving us these so called laws and why did He give 2 types? I am so confused. Some say its done away yet some it isn't.

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 ---janet on 12/2/06
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Steveng - *Choose your counselors very, very carefully, espeically in today's world. Many of the so-called Christians books and novels conflict with the Bible. Even the Scofield's Bible is the interpretation of one person.*

Very true but I feel that those that suffer the most are those that base their belief system on one and only one person. Such is the situation with many of the cults.
---lee1538 on 7/6/08


Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

If the Ten Commandments is the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant is the law of Moses, then it would follow that the Ten commandments are at least part of the Law of Moses.

If we stick to all the Bible dictionaries we would have to agree that the 10 commandments are at least part of the Mosaic law.
---lee1538 on 10/21/07


Happy New Year, Lee.
You asked whether circumcision was "always a matter of the heart?"

YES, obviously you didn't read the references. Again, Deut 10:16, 30:6:
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
---Geoff on 1/1/07


Lee, OT & NT show God hasn't changed. He wants us to remove the skin of sin surrounding our hearts. Jer 4:4, Rom 2:29-
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, & take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah & inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest My fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; & circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, & not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God
---Geoff on 1/1/07


Lee, Rom 3:27 is about our boasting & pride. We are not saved by keeping the Law. We keep the Law because of our salvation. There is a BIG difference, you know. But because we are saved by grace doesn't mean we don't have to keep the Law. Here's the previous chapter-Rom 2:13:

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

No contradiction between ch 2 & 3

Also consider James 1:22-25

Clear?
---Geoff on 1/1/07




1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

The Law is not made for the righteous in Christ, there is no other righteousness,But to condemn sinners, We are under the Law of the Spirit of Life that is in Christ, The law of Liberty, the Law of Grace, by which we walk in the Spirit not fulfilling carnality
---exzucuh on 1/1/07


Please read Romans 13:1-5; I Timothy 1:8-11. There is the abolished Old Testament Levitical-Mosaic Law of B.C., and there is the currently in force New Testament Judaic-Messianic Law of A.D.
---Eloy on 1/1/07


The Law was the tree of knowledge of Good and evil the Tree of Life was Jesus, Adam had permission to eat of Jesus but not to eat of the Law, he was living in Grace, after he sinned eating of the Law he was under the Law and had to serve it, God thrust him from the Garden of grace into the world of the Law so he word not eat of Jesus and be eternally dammed. Jesus came, made of the written word the Law and was nailed to the tree by which sin came paying for Adams sin saving him and all his children.
---exzucuh on 1/1/07


Geoff - *Lee, it's not the obedient who judge you, the law does*

Yes indeed and like Paul I found that the law can only condemns one so we live by the law of faith.

Romans 3:27-28 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
---lee on 12/31/06


Geoff - *The Bible indicates circumcision has always been a matter of the heart*

Always a matter of the heart?

Definitely not true! Circumcision was a physical rite in which the foreskin of the male child was removed.

Luke 1:59 And on the 8th day they came to circumcise the child (John),...

I would assume that Jesus was also circumcised (2:39).

You speak of spiritual circumcision, why not accept that the Sabbath was also something of the heart? Hebrews 4.
---lee on 12/31/06




Geoff - *Grace does not allow us to continue to live in sin, but cleanses us from all unrighteousness-Ro 6:1-3, 1 Jn 1:7*

Totally true but does God consider it a sin if we do not obey an obsolete law or a law does no longer applies to the church?

The Christian is to abide in Christ under the New Covenant dispensation; not the Old.
---lee on 12/31/06


Lee, it's not the obedient who judge you, the law does

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law-Rom 2:12 (see Jam 2:11-12)

Regardless if you think you are immune from the law or not, if you are a lawbreaker, the law judges you. Trying to eradicate the law will not release you from it-1 Cor 15:55-56

Only Jesus gives you victory OVER sin-v57, but that's not license to continue-Ro 6:1-6
---Geoff on 12/31/06


Lee, notice in Gal 4:21 Paul is NOT telling us to discard the law. Instead, he tells us to LISTEN to it. So forget the persecution complex. Those of us who believe in obedience by faith are not persecuting you. That's your conscience bothering you. But there will come a time, and already is, when you lawbreakers will persecute the obedient-Rev 12:13, 17. That's simply indication of who your father is-Jn 8:44
---Geoff on 12/31/06


Lee, please tell us when circumcision was annulled. The Bible indicates circumcision has always been a matter of the heart-Deut 10:16, 30:6, Jer 4:4, Rom 2:29. I like what Leslie said: "Yes, ceremonial laws are done away with. Circumcision is now a matter of God cutting away all sin from your heart. The 10 Commandments you still have to follow though, there are no exceptions to those, New Covenant or not."

Happy New Year, Everyone!
---Geoff on 12/31/06


Debbie, you said "a holy God can not be approached through the Law." Text please? Only the clean & pure may stand in His presence-Ps 24:3-5. We must be clothed in Christ's righteousness-Mt 22:11-13, Job 29:14, Ps 132:9, Is 61:10. If we are presumptuous sinners it will be disastrous to attempt to enter God's presence-Mt 11:13, Lv 10:1-3

Grace does not allow us to continue to live in sin, but cleanses us from all unrighteousness-Ro 6:1-3, 1 Jn 1:7
---Geoff on 12/31/06


Tonne said "When [God] put [His Law] in stone they did not work."

Sorry Tonne, there was nothing wrong with the Law, just our ability to obey, but Jesus was successful and demonstrated how to keep it-Ro 7:7, 12-13 (did you catch that, Craige?); Heb 4:15; Jn 14:30
---Geoff on 12/31/06


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Jude 17-18 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

And who is qualified to judge that others are mockers just because they do not share the convictions of the SDA - the children of Hagar, in their observance of OT laws?
---lee on 12/30/06


There will always be conflict between the slave children of Hagar (those that desire to be under the law - Gal. 4:21) and those born according to the promise who are free (4:23).

Galatians 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
---lee on 12/30/06


The mockery of the obedient by the ungodly is a sign that we are living in the last days. "But beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: How that they told you there should be MOCKERS in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts" Jude 17,18
---Gina on 12/29/06


Gina, Geoff a precept is a rule or principle prescribing a course of action or conduct. Your attempt to describe the Sabbath as a precept "established forever & ever" (Psalms 111:7-8), fails as OT scripture also describes circumcision as established also forever.

But if something as important as circumcision (sign of the Abrahamic covenant) can be annulled for the church then why not the Sabbath (sign of the Mosaic covenant) be annulled as well?
---lee1538 on 12/29/06


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Geoff "Gina's on to something here "Let us not mock God's word,as Psalm 111:7,8 is true." Do you notice a pattern with Lee?

Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour-Prov 14:9"/ Yes, I do see a pattern with Lee,& w/ John T of mocking the obedience of others. We should bear the mockery with dignity, as Jesus did when he was mocked by the soldiers Luke 23:36 "And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar" Mat27:27-31.
---Gina on 12/29/06


Leslie - *Yes, ceremonial laws are done away with. ... The 10 Commandments you still have to follow though, there are no exceptions to those, New Covenent or not.*

The Sabbath is a ceremonial law given only to the Jewish nation and nailed to the Cross - Col 2:14

It is best to stick with your convictions as to whether you observe a day or not - Romans 14:5 "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."
---lee1538 on 12/27/06


Yes, ceremonial laws are done away with. Circumcision is now a matter of God cutting away all sin from your heart. The 10 Commandments you still have to follow though, there are no exceptions to those, New Covenent or not.
---Leslie on 12/26/06


Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

The verse sort of blews the foot off the Adventist argument that even the Gentiles were given the Sabbath law (you know the Sabbath was made for man thing) but at the same time indicates that the Gentiles knew what moral law was.
---lee1538 on 12/26/06


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Debbie-"we can see that the Law sets bounds and brings death. A holy God can not be approached through the Law."

1st G-d said that He puts before you life & death, blessing & curse. Keep the Laws, life & blessing, don't keep laws death & curse. If G-d cannot be approached through the Law, then why does G-d say to worship Him only in the manner prescribed in the Laws? Why give the Laws in the first place& make a promise to them if they cannot approach Him through it to begin with?
---jeff on 12/26/06


Debbie-"God told Moses to sanctify the people and let them wash their cloths. What is seen here is self-righteousness. They are washing their own cloths or trying to clean themselves up."

This is obviously your interpretation and is farthest from the truth. Rev.22:14 says in original greek manuscripts Blessed are those who do His commandments. The alternate text says wash their robes. Obedience is what G-d desires not lawlessness, which is what you're advocating.
---jeff on 12/26/06


Debbie- excellent answer. But i would include Rom. ch. 7-8 as well.
---craige on 12/26/06


#1 God did not give "us" the Gentiles the Law (Romans 2:14), it was given to the Children of Israel. In Ex. 19: 4-6, God gave Moses words to speak to the people. In Ex. 19:8, the people put themselves under the Law in saying, "what ever You say we will do." In verses 9,10, God told Moses to sanctify the people and let them wash their cloths. What is seen here is self-righteousness. They are washing their own cloths or trying to clean themselves up.
---Debbie on 12/26/06


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#2 In EX. 19:11-13, we can see that the Law sets bounds and brings death. A holy God can not be approached through the Law. With Exodus study Romans 2-6.
---Debbie on 12/26/06


Perhaps you should take a course in Humanities and it will explain some of the laws. There are different types of laws. Kingdom. Divine. God gaves us laws because if we keep them we will become a special people unto the Lord a people who does not error. God wants us to be holy like him because we are made in his image.Old Testament: When he put them in stone (Moses) they did not work. New Test: He put them in us by the holy spirit and it convicts us
---Tonne on 12/25/06


Merry Christmas Lee1538 & friends. Life is precious so today please remember to spend time & share Jesus with family, friends & all who need Him. May I also suggest reading Lk 2:1-20 and Chapter 4, "Unto You a Savior," p 43 of Desire of Ages.

As I have said, circumcision, like the Sabbath & the 10 Commandment Law, has always been a matter of the heart-Dt 10:26, 30:6, Jer 4:4, Rom 2:29, Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10, 10:16
---Geoff on 12/25/06


Gina - *Circumcism was changed from outward to inward (heart), and never was done away with. Let us not mock God's word, as Psalm 111:7,8 is true.*

And using the very same identical type of reasoning we can also conclude that the Sabbath became a thing of the heart like circumcision.

Read Hebrews 4 and imagine that I may be right and that you are wrong.I would beg you to prove me wrong but you cannot.
---lee1538 on 12/24/06


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Geoff - If circumcision - the sign of the everlasting covenant between God and the descendents of Abraham - was something that was established forever (Gen. 17:11) and then annulled for the church, then the Sabbath being also an everlasting covenant between God & Israel alone (Lev 24:8), could also be annulled for the church.

THINK ABOUT IT! The Jewish Sabbath was not a permanent injunction.
---lee1538 on 12/24/06


"Let us not mock God's word", agreed but your position seems to offer one that opportunity.
---lee1538 on 12/24/06


Geoff - ...please note it's the covenant that that's old, not the 10 Commandment Law-Rom 8:13*

Wrong again as the 10 Commandments are the Old Covenant.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Are are indeed foolish to insist that the 10 Commandments are not the Old Covenant. Maybe Craige is right about pearls before swine?
---lee1538 on 12/24/06


Gina's on to something here "Let us not mock God's word, as Psalm 111:7,8 is true." Do you notice a pattern with Lee?

Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour-Prov 14:9

But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy-2 Chron 36:16

Lee1538, please note it's the covenant that that's old, not the 10 Commandment Law-Rom 8:13
---Geoff on 12/24/06


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Gina - *Circumcism was changed from outward to inward (heart), and never was done away with.*

And since circumcision (the sign of one covenant) became something of the heart alone, we can also accept that fact that the Sabbath (the sign of another covenant) also became something of the heart.

We read in Hebrews 4;3 that those who have believed have entered that 7th day rest that God spoke of.
---lee1538 on 12/23/06


les -*You see, on the matter of circumcision, it's always been a matter of the heart*.

Not within Judaism; circumcision has always been a matter of physical removal of the foreskin. Anyone that believes otherwise simply is not at all familiar with Judaism.
---lee1538 on 12/23/06


Lee "Geoff you & Gina may really be on to something here!!!!. If Gods precepts are "established forever"(Ps.111:7-8) then clearly the early church erred when they decided that the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised." /Lee Circumcism was changed from outward to inward (heart), and never was done away with. Let us not mock God's word, as Psalm 111:7,8 is true.
---Gina on 12/23/06


les - never did I state that it was not of the heart that God views. If I have erred, then point that out specifically and prove me wrong by Scripture.

Where Geoff and I disagree is that the church is under selective laws of the Old Covenant and not solely under the New. Hebr 8;13.
---lee1538 on 12/23/06


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#1 Janet, in the bible, you see that God gives laws, rules, etc., because He loves us, as Paul says, the law is holy, just, and good. Man transgressed in Eden and death passed upon man. God provided a Ransom, His beloved Son, and revealed this wonderful salvation available through the sacrificial system--a substitute was accepted in the sinner's place. The sinner could avail himself of the provision and be saved, or reject and his sins remained.
---Wayne87 on 12/23/06


#2 In other words, the sacrificial system revealed a way to be brought back into oneness (atonement) with God when one had broken any of the commands of God. The Old Testament presents the gospel in picture and symbol--through prophets (Hebrews 1:1), but in the New Testament, we have the Son Himself revealing the reality of the gospel. Commentators generally call these two systems of law, the moral and the ceremonial.
---Wayne87 on 12/23/06


#3 There are differences of opinion as to which are moral and which ceremonial, but generally we see the moral as that which is commanded to all men--Thou shalt love thy God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself. The ceremonial law was a picture of the atonement and was commanded to all who would be reconciled to God before He came personally. Yet it was only their faith in God that even made the ceremonial system a blessing. Without faith, God had to say I hate the sacrifices.
---Wayne87 on 12/23/06


#4 When Jesus died, then the ceremonial system was no longer needed because the reality had come. Hope this helps. He will guide you by His Spirit, and you will see that from Genesis to Revelation, God reveals His love, both in revealing His will and revealing His provision to bring man back into harmony with that will. If you wish to share more, feel free ask questions here or to contact me at Wayne8738. God bless.
---Wayne87 on 12/23/06


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I agree with you Geof and Lee is absolutely wrong and off side. It is of the heart. If you repent,cleanse/circumcise the foresking of your heart, then you will know error from truth if you come closer to God each day. Lee you preaching error all thru...
---les on 12/23/06


Leslie - *God gave us laws to protect us. If you have a stop sign on the side of the road, you should not just keep going - there could be a car in your path, and going would only kill you. The same with God's laws.*

Did God give up civil laws? Some of God's law are clearly ceremonial in nature and do nothing to protect us.

If we follow the commandment of Christ to love one another then clearly all the requirements of the law are fulfilled. Romans 13:9-10
---lee1538 on 12/22/06


God gave us laws to protect us. If you have a stop sign on the side of the road, you should not just keep going - there could be a car in your path, and going would only kill you. The same with God's laws.
---Leslie on 12/22/06


Geoff - *You see, on the matter of circumcision, it's always been a matter of the heart*.

Wrong again -

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And of course, like circumcision of the heart, the Sabbath is a matter of the heart - that rest the believer has in Christ.
---lee on 12/18/06


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Now you're talking, Lee. Only, the Holy Spirit IS also in agreement with the Father & the Son, & the OT & NT completely agree. You see, on the matter of circumcision, it's always been a matter of the heart.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deut 10:16, 30:6, Jer 4:4. This is gender-inclusive. Hmmm, think about it.
---Geoff on 12/17/06


Craige "The only law that a person who is born agian is under,is found in ROM.8:2--"For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus,has made me free from the law of sin and death."Very true, because when we walk with Jesus,& have His spirit within us,we will no longer sin,& therefore no longer be in bondage to sin and death. It does not mean we no longer have to keep the 10CC and be sinners, but means we will be freed from the condemnation of the Law through Jesus keeping us from sinning.
---Gina on 12/17/06


Psalms 111:7-8 the works of his hands are faithful and just; all his precepts are trustworthy; they are established forever and ever, to be performed with faithfulness and uprightness.
---lee on 12/17/06


Geoff you & Gina may really be on to something here!!!!. If Gods precepts are "established forever"(Ps.111:7-8) then clearly the early church erred when they decided that the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised.

Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit got the wrong direction from God? OTOH if His Spirit was correct then circumcision as well as some of the other distinctive laws (Sabbath?) given only to the Jews may not be applicable to the church. Lets think more about it.
---lee on 12/17/06


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Geoff, Gina - if an 'everlasting covenant' as was circumcision could be annulled Gen. 17:13 - it was a sign of a covenant made between Abraham and His seed forver, then could not the Sabbath - another sign of an 'everlasting covenant' also be annulled?

Think about it! perhaps the early church made an err when they failed to impose the Sabbath onto the Gentile church.
---lee on 12/17/06


Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

And since we all are offsping of Abraham, (and I think our pseudo Adventist Jeff would agree) we all need to be circumcised, keep the sabbath and other Mosaic laws as these were part of any 'everlasting' covenant made by none other than God Himself.
---lee on 12/17/06


The only law that a person who is born agian is under, is found in ROM.8:2-- "For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has made me free from the law of sin and death."
---craige on 12/17/06


Lee1538, I hope you caught, from what Gina presented, the Law's perpetuity Ps 111:7,8 and application on the heart Heb 8:10. It's always been a matter of the heart. Where is yours? Ps 40:8

Lee1538 & Kay, I hope you also noticed the continuity & consistent religion of the church, the same woman in Rev 12:1-17. There's only 1 bride, as there is only 1 Groom-Rev 21:2. If you don't identify with the bride, you must be one of those other women/false churches-Isa 4:1, Rev 17:3
---Geoff on 12/17/06


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Yes Kay, the 10Cs are Mo's Laws, but Mo's Laws aren't the 10Cs, as females aren't males, though humanbeings comprise both. The Law of Christ (Gal 6:2) IS God's Law, for Jesus is God the Son and Father & Son are in perfect agreement-Jn 10:30, 17:21, 1 Jn 5:7. Don't you agree? Furthermore, Jesus is consistent-Jn 8:25, Lk 24:27

Why would you hold only 9 of 10 Commandments perpetual. Why do you break them up when God gave & keeps the 10 as a unit? Deut 5:22 Where does God say they're temporary?
---Geoff on 12/17/06


GOD gave us the 'Laws' not to train us to be perfect...we are all born perfect. And before someone mentions it, we are born into sin.. not born as sinners. The laws were made into stone to help remind us, to help focus our thoughts on the correct path, just as we create monuments to remind us of past times, people, incidents. Our imperfections come when we 'choose' to do otherwise. We all know right from wrong, it's imbedded in our hearts/souls.
---Christian on 12/17/06


Gina -*Both covenants REVOLVE AROUND the 10 commandments*

Totally wrong! There is virtually nothing to support that view. Even Jesus when asked what was the chief of all commandments did not even reply with any of the 10 commandments.

*The new covenant is God writing the Holy 10 commandments upon our hearts:*

Again totally wrong again, as God would not write a ceremonial law - the Sabbath commandment, given as a sign of the Old Covenant upon the heart.
---lee1538 on 12/16/06


Lee1538:"Seems to me that she has been unable to understand the difference between the covenant given to Israel alone and the covenant that included the church." Both covenants REVOLVE AROUND the 10 commandments. God's Holy 10 commandments,the heart of all morals,have not nor will ever be abolished."The works of his hands are verity and judgment: all his commandments are sure, THEY STAND FAST FOR EVER AND EVER,and are done in truth and uprightness" Psalm111:7,8
---Gina on 12/16/06


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Lee1538:"Seems to me that she has been unable to understand the difference between the covenant given to Israel alone and the covenant that included the church." Both covenants REVOLVE AROUND the 10 commandments. The new covenant is God writing the Holy 10 commandments upon our hearts: "For this is the COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.." Hebrews8:10
---Gina on 12/16/06


Geoff - it would help if you would recognize what is plainly stated in Hebrews 8:13 -
"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

The Ten commandments with its Sabbath commandment are simply part of the Old Covenant Mosaic legislation that is not applicable to the church (Acts 15).
---lee1538 on 12/16/06


Kay, it will help if you accept the authority for the Old & New Testament as the inspired word of God-2 Tim 3:16. The religion & church of both is the same (Rev 12:1-17) for God didn't change-Mal 3:6. If 10 Commandments were permanent, wouldn't God have expected the Jews to abide by them as well? You start with the assumption that they were only given to the Jews.

All women are mankind, but not all mankind are women for some of mankind are men.
---Geoff on 12/16/06


Sorry, but I don't understand 2(??) types. Anyway, the law was necessary to make human life and living together possible!! Never the law was the way to salvation! Remember that the Lord gave his law (Sinai) to saved people!! Many are saying the opposite way. First salvation then the law. Everyone who loves Jesus, has not the law of stone, but he became the law in his heart!
---Ernst3769 on 12/15/06


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law in ot was given to show us we can not be has rightous as lord is. But god needed it to be fullfilled, that's why jesus came and fullfilled every single point of it.
then the second law- "the royal law" the law of love is summed in two commidments: love the lord... and love each other the way Jesus did. that's the law for those on christ...and he always helps us to obey it through his holy spirit. God bless you and gives you a revelation spirit of himself. rosaa9987
---Rosa_Amelia on 12/15/06


Mima - *Jesus fulfilled the law for all who believe but nonbelievers have no way of escaping the law and the condemnation thereof.*

Yes, exactly as Jesus is the Savior for those who have accepted Him into their lives, they only need to look to Jesus to be counted righteous in the sight of God.

The Adventists seem not to understand that it is God's Spirit that molds one into the image of Christ; and that does not include obedience to ceremonial laws as is the Sabbath. Phil 2:13.
---lee1538 on 12/15/06


Recently a friend made this statement to me. The law is still in full force and as such is very condemning to the lost. Jesus fulfilled the law for all who believe but nonbelievers have no way of escaping the law and the condemnation thereof.
---Mima on 12/15/06


The law was given to show us that we cannot be made righteous by our own attempt at trying to be perfect. It is only by faith in Christ that we are made right in Gods sight. We cannot be good enough to get into heaven.
---Daniel on 12/15/06


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Since it was Moses who was the recipient of the 10 Commandments and we read throughout the writings of Moses - the Torah, the phrase "the LORD said to Moses", followed by some instruction to Israel, there is little choice but to agree that the 10 Commandments are anything less than part of the Mosaic law.

It is hard to defend SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, but it is highly dubious that one can separate the 10 commandments from its Mosaic legislation.
---lee1538 on 12/14/06


Geoff, so you believe that the 10 commandments are the Mosaic Covenant, but the Mosaic Covenant isn't the 10 Commandments? What do you believe in regards to the Law of Christ? Do you believe that the Law of Christ is the commandments of Jesus, but the commandments of Jesus aren't the Law of Christ? According to the Bible, the Law of Moses = the 10 commandments & the book of the law. The 10 commandments + the book of the law = Old Covenant. The 10 formed the beginning of the old covenant.
---Kay on 12/14/06


"..Ten Commandments-timeless moral code to govern mankind."

Not so, Geoff. The Bible clearly teaches that the 10 commandments were given to Israel as a TEMPORARY covenant between them and God. That covenant was never given to the entire human race. As for being a moral code, only 9 of the 10 are moral laws. The Sabbath was a ceremonial law.
---Kay on 12/14/06


"You understand sets & subsets."

It doesn't make a bit of difference. The 10 + the book of the law = the Old Covenant. A covenant that has faded away.

"Now re-read Ex 34:27-28"

I didn't see anything different about it. God is still claiming that the 10 are the words of the covenant.

Deut 4:13-"And he declared unto you his COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone."
---Kay on 12/14/06


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Kay, A=Mosaic Law-large body of laws to govern Israel, B=Ten Commandments-timeless moral code to govern mankind. A contained B, so B is A, but A is not B. Literally, Israel is part of mankind, but mankind is not Israel. Likewise, the 10Cs IS (notice the unit, singular-Deut 5:22) part of Mosaic Laws, but the Mosaic Laws are not the 10 Commandment Law. You understand sets & subsets.

Now re-read Ex 34:27-28
---Geoff on 12/14/06


Geoff, what do you believe is the Mosaic Law or Mosaic Covenant? The 10 commandments ACCORDING TO GOD are the words of the covenant (Ex 34:27-28). God told Moses to place the 10 commandments into the ark.
---Kay on 12/13/06


Geoff, why do you think the ark was called the "ark of the covenant"? It was because the ark contained the covenant. Which covenant? The covenant that God made with Israel. Who was its mediator? MOSES! The covenant that God made with Israel through Moses is referred to as the Mosaic Law, the Mosaic Covenant, and the Law of Moses.
---Kay on 12/13/06


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