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Witnesses Don't Believe Trinity

I work with a Jehovah Witness. They don't believe in the Trinity, and I do. I have shown her scriptures but, we are at an impass in our beliefs. Should we be discussing the Trinity and if so, what else can I say?

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 ---Donna9759 on 12/12/06
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Beautiful thing about God...

Verily I say unto you,Whatsover ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Again I say unto you...[IF]
TWO OF YOU SHALL AGREE on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask,it shall be done for them OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.

Key word is [IF]...

The SPIRIT testifies....
This is Gods doing...not ours.
[IF] the words spoken out of OUR MOUTH are Gods WORD...


1John Chapter 5.

Gods Peace.
---char on 10/8/08

Jesus said I will not leave you without sending the Comforter (Holy Spirit, part of the Trinity).

FAILING to see Gods Truth YOU MUST ADD to Gods Word here to support the antichrist trinity ...nowhere in Bible does it say the comforter is part of a trinity

God tells us to prove all things do not ADD to HIS WORD

1Corin 8:5-7 ....Paul states others have many Gods and Lords BUT FOR US there is ONE FATHER and ONE SON CHRIST ...Holy Spirit is NOT mentioned as ONE of anything in this verse ...which is why Apostle Paul asked why isn't this knowledge in everyone?

no scriptures supporting pagan trinity

Holy Spirit not forgotten as a "god" in this verse Holy Spirit is not a "god"
---Rhonda on 9/11/08


Re: "Your not in the Body of Christ if you do not believe in the Trinity. Its that simple."

If it's "that simple" where does the Bible make that statement?
---scott on 9/11/08

gayla, your not in the Body of Christ if you do not believe in the Trinity. Its that simple. God reveals Himself through Jesus Christ. Jesus said I will not leave you without sending the Comforter (Holy Spirit, part of the Trinity).
Genesis 1:26, God said " let us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness". Book of Acts clearly shows God's work through the Holy Spirit, which empowered the disciples, as well as us now, with Baptism of Fire and Power. Jesus said, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". A believer in the Body of Christ, by conviction, accepts and believes God's Word and doesn't pick and chose what they want to believe. The Bible is not a box of chocolates to chose what flavor you want.
---Robert on 8/18/08

People have all sorts of nonBiblical beliefs. I know people who believe that God is energy and air and spirit, God is nature, God is a crystal, God is a catholic pope, God is a church. Your coworker is believing what her religion teaches her, and they rely upon their own writings rather than on the Holy Bible. She is a member of a false religion, so you just keep exalting Jesus, for he alone is proven YHWH. Also jehovah witnesses are known to convert to Christianity.
---Eloy on 8/18/08

There are others in the body of Christ that also, do not believe in the Trinity. Jesus only teachings are around also. As well as the Jewish population, that only believe in God, and refuse to believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. God tells us to share the truth, it is up to the hearer, as to what they do with it. We are never to argue about it, and to remain in the right spirit, as we share.
---gayla on 8/17/08

Each person will choose to believe whatever they desire. There is, however, only one truth. If you do not submit to The Holy Spirit, Christ the Son and God the Father and you choose to believe something that is in conflict with His word than He will be the judge of that. It is not the responsibility of the Christian to brow beat people into understanding. Understanding is only given through the Spirit it is His job to convict.
---Ryan on 8/15/08

Mysteries of God, are His...only revealed as one yields to the Holy Spirit, once again, God will help those who are honest hearted, but pride destroys, those who fight God tooth & nail in regard to the Holy Trinity are in grave danger,REFUSE God's COUNSEL (Prov.1:24-33), they have decided to heed to the counsel of man, self,devil(no unction of the Holy Spirit). God said come let us reason together. Only God can forgive mortal sin, only the Lord. God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/21/07

Bruce you said: "Whether or not she believes in the trinity is irrelevant to her salvation." Bruce, How could you say the Holy Trinity is "irrelevant" to her salvation,JESUS is a part of the Holy Trinity!The JW's don't believe that Jesus is equal with God, but they will say that He died for their sins.God's FULL-TRUTH,and RECEIVING that TRUTH,is what SAVES people, half-Truths won't work.There's important oracles/components of the Gospel Truth,one of those being the Holy Trinity.
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/21/07

if the Witnesses believe differently to us, why are some of us attacking them for their belief? We are sharing on this blog aren't we? We think they are wrong yet they thing we are wrong..wouldnt it be better just to share our belief with each other instead of attacking?
---mam on 1/4/07

Donna, we answered the same question here.
---anonymous on 1/3/07

Joel, can you go to the Trinity blog and explain what the Trinity is? I will only take you a few moments and can be of great help to others. Thanks for your answer on the information you put down. Happy New Year
---lisa on 1/1/07

A threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Spirit of Bondage - root: Bitterness

Compulsive behavior
All addictions
Driving desire
Spiritually blind
Shattered life
Anguish of spirit
Broken heart

Rom 8:15-16, Acts 10:38, 8:23, Luke 4:18
John 1:4-9, 8:34, Matt 4:16, II Tim 2:26
Ex. 6:9, 1:14, Prov 5:22
---Joel on 12/30/06

Lying spirit - Root: Hypocrisy

Driving zeal
Garbled words
Vain notions
Vain babbling
Vain imaginations

2 Thess 2:11, Ezek. 12:24, Matt 12:35-37, 1 Tim 4:7, 6:20, II tim 2:16, Jer. 23:15-17
---Joel on 12/30/06

Spirit of Haughtiness - Root: Pride

Brow beating
Stiff necked
Exalted feelings

Prov 3:32-24, 6:16-17, 16:18, 21:23,24, 29:1, 13:10
Isa 16:6, 2:11, 5:15
Jer. 48:29
I Pet 5:3-5
II Cor 12:7
---Joel on 12/30/06

Holy Spirit of God - Root: Salvation
The Root of Jesse: Jesus Christ

Even Temper

Matt 7:16, 17 Matt 12:29
---Joel on 12/30/06

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Jesus's way of deliverance

Preach Word
Heal wounded spirit
Pray deliverance
God's truth to open blind eyes
Set captive free, restore by forgiveness

Luke 4:18, Isa 61:1, Acts 13:23
---Joel on 12/30/06

Isa 53:4-5


Bears our grief
Carries our sorrows
Jesus was stricken, smitten, afflicted
Wounded for our transgressions
Bruised for our iniquities
Chastised for our peace
With His stripes we are healed
---Joel on 12/30/06

Holy Spirit -



---Joel on 12/30/06

Jesus Christ

Alpha and Omega
Bright and Morning Star
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Chosen One
Name of Jesus is Excellent
Prince of Peace
Living Water
---Joel on 12/30/06

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Jehovah Elohim

He Who Was. He Who Is. He Who Is To Come.

Jehovah Elohim: Eternal Creator
Jehovah Adonai: The Lord Our Sovereign, Master Jehovah
Jehovah Jireh: The Lord Will See, Provide
Jehovah Nissi: The Lord Our Banner
Jehovah Ropheka: The Lord Our Healer
Jehovah Shalom: The Lord Our Peace
Jehovah Tsidkenu: The Lord Our Righteousness
Jehovah Mikaddeshkem: The Lord Our Sanctifier
Jehovah Sabaoth: The Lord of Hosts, Our Deliverer
---Joel on 12/30/06

Jehovah Shammah: The Lord is Present
Jehovah Elyon: The Lord Most High
Jehovah Rohi: The Lord My Shepherd
Jehovah Hoeenu: The Lord Our Maker
Jehovah Eloheenu: The Lord Our God
Jehovah Eloheka: The Lord Thy God
Jehovah Elohay: The Lord My God
---Joel on 12/30/06

Joel, forgive me if you are one that does know how to explain the Trinity in its context. I have read all the responses on the blog of the trinity and I can see that not many even know how to explain it away. Some say an egg, some say Christ was created, some say, Jesus is not fully man and fully God, that there is no such thing. Most everyone is clueless on how to explain it. The point in answer to Bruce is that to come to Christ, a person does not need to know the theology of the Trinity.
---lisa on 12/29/06

2. Just think of what it would be to go to an unbeliever and say, "Here is the good news of the gosple" and later you say, "but here is the bad news, you have to believe in the Trinity" First of all how can a lost person believe before he is saved? There is no way he can grasp what you are talking about. The Good News always accomplishes what it was intended for by God. "So is My word that goes out from My mouth:
---lisa on 12/29/06

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3. and here is what His word does and why, "It will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what "I" desire and achieve the "purpose for which I sent it." So the Good News is what they really need. The theology of the Trinity is for the believer to learn. When a believer does not have a correct understanding, it will make a big difference in how he worships, to whom he thinks he is worshipping to, and a true concept of Christ our Lord.
---lisa on 12/29/06

lisa, you would be amazed at the number of Christians that do understand the Bible. We're not clueless about the Trinity or theology. Some of us allow "the Holy Sprit to teach us in the 'very hour' what we ought to say." Luke 12:12
Some of us are always ready to give a defense to everyone who asks a reason for the hope that is within us. 1 Peter 3:15.
---Joel on 12/29/06

I want to say thank you, lisa. I appreciate your interpretation of the scriptures, in your own words. I understand where you are coming from now.
---Bob on 12/29/06

Bruce, again I believe you are correct in what you say about the lost and the trinity. First of all not to many Christians can explain the trinity and only Christians that have studied the theology of the subject of the trinity will understand it. The other Christians don't have a clue what it is meant by the trinity. I have seen so many answers and paths to God from so many so call Christians that I am amaze each day how they talk.
---lisa on 12/29/06

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2. The lost, to begin with do not believe any of Scripture. He is lost and has emnity with God. So explaining the trinity to them is useless, what we need to do is to preach the good News, the gospel of Christ and resurrection. The Spirit convicts the soul and bring them to life, and gives faith to the person in order that he will believe. How can a lost person know about the trinity? it is impossible. Now when you witness to a Jehovah Witness, it is almost as hard as trying to teach a
---lisa on 12/29/06

3. born again Christian whose fundamentals have a different theology. The Witnessess have their own fundamentals, and believe their own way. It is when we speak the truth that God, not us, will change them if God so desires. It is after all up to God to do the changing and not us. That is why I agree with your statements. I do understand Morgans answers but they pertain to the Christian that is already born again to learn as he becomes educated in Christianity.
---lisa on 12/29/06

Lets get a big egg and call it God, You will never prove the triniy it is not in the Sciptures, nor will you prove the oneness doctrine, The apostles only preached and wrote about the Father and the Son, and being Jews already knew the Father was the Holy Spirit, The Son came to do the will of the Father and always gave witness of the Father and The Father gave witness of the Son.
---Exzucuh on 12/28/06

Wrong. Wrong-o, Mary Ann. All roads do not lead to God. That would be New Age, One World Church type of teaching.

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Enter by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

Matthew 7:13,14
---Joel on 12/28/06

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Now where have I seen that phrase before "All roads lead to God"?
Must be somewhere in the Bible.
Can anyone enlighten me??
---alanUKquent64534 on 12/28/06

Try asking about their beliefs. Then talk in their language. I found this to be helpful for me. I also read some of their newspapers which helped me to talk with them. But, Remember also, All roads lead to God, and "Live and let Live" In other words it is ok to agree to disagree.
---Mary_Ann on 12/28/06

The thief on the cross was the last to be saved under the old covant
---Betty on 12/28/06

Jesus said when you se me you have seen the father.My father and i are one not three God says he is the begaing and he is the end .He also said i know no other God. The bible speaks of one throne not three. God says he is a jealous God and he will not share his glory with another
---Betty on 12/28/06

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Leslie the egg has three parts but we usually in our house throw the shell away. The egg now with two usable parts, in our house anyway, came from two birds to co-create that egg and only one bird delivered the egg. And the egg comes out warm.
---stewart on 12/28/06

Use an egg! An egg is one whole egg with three parts (shell, yoke, white). This is a picture of the trinity.
---Leslie on 12/27/06

Donna9759, "What is the difference between trying to show a JW the truth of the word and trying to show a deceived born again believer the truth about her life and what she's being deceived about? Neither will listen nor accept you are telling them the truth, so what's the difference between these 2 people? Nothing?" ---Dear Sister, Could you be more specific, what is this Christian decieved about? God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/15/06

Don't discuss! Acts 1: 8 "Witness what YOU have seen!" Who doesn't believe, that Jesus is God's Son, is throwing away the Gospel, God's loving extended hand and in fact it is throwing away God's word, God's love for us.... Who throws away Jesus, is on the same level as Muslims! Christianity is NOT a religion! Christianity is a PERSON! The name of that person is Jesus. ONLY ONE NAME is given to us!! When you have a relationship with Jesus, you will discover, that discussions lead to nothing.
---Ernst3769 on 12/15/06

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M.M;It's not the "case" that's shut and closed,it's the mind. Saying that "most Christians" ,indicates that you're a follow-the-leader type person,what the majority think has got to be truth. There's more than a billion Muslims and Catholics world wide to day.Following the big numbers may not be your best choice!IMHO. Incedently I'm not JW.,I do have the ability to think for myself. Today's battle is for the mind.Eph.6.12.
---1st_cliff on 12/15/06

??"...a deceived born again believer..."??

This statement is an oxymoron. You can not be deceived and be born again. There is only one truth and it is found in the word of God, which took Him 1000's of years to give to us.

My people perish for a lack of knowledge.

Study to show thyself approved.
---Ryan on 12/15/06

1st_cliff, Are you a JW? Because they don't believe in the Holy Trinity either. Most Christian's don't walk with those who attack the Holy Trinity, It just isn't accepted by the Church(even with all the confusion in the Chruch today, as a whole the Holy Trinity is a shut and closed case).
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/15/06

Folks, here's another aspect/question I have: What is the difference between trying to show a JW the truth of the word and trying to show a deceived born again believer the truth about her life and what she's being deceived about? Neither will listen nor accept you are telling them the truth, so what's the difference between these 2 people? Nothing? or am I missing something?
---Donna9759 on 12/15/06

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M.M.; Beware of translations indeed Mrs. M. are you a translation expert?
---1st_cliff on 12/15/06

Elder; That's true fundamenalism alright.It is in fact the "secondary issues" that are the problems.Mormons,Catholics and JWs also believe that Jesus was resurrected,are they also fundamentalists?Catholics believe in a firey hell,and immortal soul and trinity,what's left? Even Muslims and Hindus believe in the immortal soul, and firey hell! I believe that's why Jesus said "narrow is the gate...few there be that find it"
---1st_cliff on 12/15/06

** Cliff my idea of a Fundamentalist is one who believes in the Fundamentals of the faith.**

Where do you think the name "fundamentalist" came from, but a series of books called THE FUNDAMENTALS, giving a number of non-negotiable propositions (including the Resurrection and Deity of Jesus) that were held to be "fundamental" to Christianity.
---Jack on 12/15/06

Cliff my idea of a Fundamentalist is one who believes in the Fundamentals of the faith.
One Fundamental is Jesus rose from the dead.
If He had just died and not rose there would be no Salvation. That becomes a fundamental.
A fundamental of flight is to try to land the acft on its wheels any thing else is not a fundamental.
There are many secondary issues in the faith but the fundamentals establish it.
It is not wrong to be a fundamentalist.
---Elder on 12/14/06

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1st_cliff, Are you saying you don't believe in the Holy Trinity? You said: "...but the REAL meaning is like the NIV and other modern english translations put it did not think equality with God was something to be grasped" (thereby robbing God) get it?You say a lot about TRUTH ,think about it!?" -- Beware of Translations, 1st_cliff!
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/14/06

Mrs.Morgan;You say much about "understanding" but I can see you yourself having a little struggle with understanding. Jesus promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise (future) as he was dead for the next 2 days (hardly paradise) because he acknowledged Christ and the comming "kingdom" Jesus said nothing about "forgiveness" He told his followers to ask God for forgiveness (Lord's prayer)
---1st_cliff on 12/14/06

M.M.2: The only time "equality is mentioned is in the archaic KJV Phil 2.6 "thought it not robbery to be equal to God" but the REAL meaning is like the NIV and other modern english translations put it "did not think equality with God was something to be grasped" (thereby robbing God) get it? You say a lot about TRUTH ,think about it!
---1st_cliff on 12/14/06

(I.)I browsed around the JW's official website, I wanted to get an better idea of who they see Jesus as. What I found out is that the JW's claim that Jesus' death was accepted by God for the sins of mankind, They will tell you that Jesus' death was the perfect sacrifice, but they don't understand/refuse to believe WHO JESUS IS, His authority, so all they have is a Counterfeit Calvary. They don't believe that Jesus Himself has the authority to forgive them of their sins,
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/14/06

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(II.)...they erroneously believe that Jesus is just a tool,and BENEATH God the Father. The JW's are very different than that robber on Jesus' side during Calvary. The difference being that the robber and other's like Mary Magdalene, BELIEVED that JESUS had the power to forgive mortal sin, something only God can do, so they BELIEVED IN/RECEIVED the REAL JESUS...
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/14/06

(III.)...they KNEW He was EQUAL to God, had the same AUTHORITY as God the Father, Because God REVEALED that to them, because they had a HONEST-HEART. I also discovered that the JWs have their butchered version of the Bible on their website, how sad! God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/14/06

The JW's have only have a "counterfeit jesus", Just like MANY so-called Christian's, One can't be SAVED/CHANGED with a "counterfeit jesus". God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/14/06

1st Cliff, Jesus is not a creation of God. Jesus is God. In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. And the word became flesh.
---Ryan on 12/13/06

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Ryan; Yes a creation of God "can" and "did" satisfy the justice of God .How? with a "pefect" creation IE Christ's human birth,since no one on earth was perfect and equal to Adam (pre sin) a perfect one was supplied by God. This is basic theology, the reason for Christ's death a "ransom sacrifice!" If not we have no hope of salvation
---1st_cliff on 12/13/06

(I.)(Luke 23:42,43) --There was two robber's , One was on Jesus' left the other on His right side when our Lord was being crucified. One robber had a honest-heart/ intentions coupled with true godly repentance(Matthew 5:8), So God gave him enough of light/knowledge to KNOW WHO JESUS WAS(That He had power and Authority to forgive MORTAL SIN, who else can do that unless they are God, Equal with God?).
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

(II.)God reveals His Truth only to the honest-hearted, Those that FIGHT God's Saving Truth/holy reasoning, ARE NOT HONEST-HEARTED, No matter how "innocent" they appear, or how many Scriptures they can quote, or how much theology training they have had. God's PURE-Truth can only be accepted by those who honestly desire It(Matthew 5:8).
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

(III.)Jesus said no man can come to Him/The Truth, unless they are DRAWN by the Holy Spirit FIRST, Those that the Spirit Draws are ONLY those that honestly SEEK/DESIRE Gods PURE Truth, and they are the ONLY ONES who CAN BE SAVED(Many think they are saved, but are not, because they didn't honestly desire God's Truth, So the Holy Ghost didn't Drawn on them.)
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

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(IV.)Once Again, It all comes down to THE HEART/INTENTIONS(in which God knows), people that don't even know how to read and write but are honest-hearted truly desiring God's Truth, God can WORK WITH THAT, He won't hide His Truth from them, But will REASON with them, REVEAL HIMSELF TO THEM. Amen! God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

Elder; For want of a better description, my idea of a "fundamentalist" is your modern day church going holier-than-thou "Christian" who believes the basic theology that God is triune,He burns people in a fire forever, just to see them squirm,and the soul never dies! What other label fits this type? FWIW- The book of Mormon says the soul never dies (Alma 42.9) the bible does not!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/06

Cliff what is a fundamentalist?
---Elder on 12/13/06

Donna9759, everything this JW coworker speaks of does not line up with Scripture. There is a danger in you thinking so. You must know and understand the context of the Scripture before dealing with someone like this.
It will not be long before you are confused about your own beliefs and salvation.
---Elder on 12/13/06

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(I.)Bruce5656, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."(John 8:58 ) People must know who Jesus is, Or how can they ACCEPT/RECEIVE Him? Those that refuse to honor Jesus as the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of the Living God,AND the 2nd Person of the God-Head can't be saved. As a little child, I was very much AWARE who Jesus is, God gives us a measure of Faith and Understanding even as CHILDREN, So why couldn't an ADULT understand and Accept Who God is?
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

(II.)Bruce5656, "...for he that cometh to God must believe THAT HE IS, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."(Heb. 11:6b) ---"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD:"(Phil. 2:6) ---"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?....
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

(III.)Bruce5656, ...and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a PREACHER? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, and bring glad tidings of good things!But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?So then faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD."(Romans 10:13-17).
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

"The Good news does not involve theology lessons."

I agree but the bad news of JW does.

You can preach salvation to someone who thinks they're saved, but they'll resit you because they don't recognize the need.

You have to show them that because they have not honored Jesus as Lord and instead have made him an angel they thereby have not honored God. (see John 5:23)
---Pharisee on 12/13/06

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Does that make null and void everything else she believes? I'm not sure.
---Donna9759 on 12/12/06

You betcha!
If you start with corrupted version of truth the whole thing is crooked, and in this case from the top down.
---Pharisee on 12/13/06

(IV.)Bruce5656, Before a person can be saved/free, This MUST take place FIRST: "And ye shall KNOW THE TRUTH, and the truth shall make you FREE."(John 8:32). The Truth must become a part of us, (JESUS is the Truth: John 6:47-66), Or one will NOT BE CHANGED/SAVED/FREE, It always comes down to having RECEIVED the Basic Essentials, the Very Foundation of God's SAVING-TRUTH/The Gospel of Christ.
---Mrs._Morgan on 12/13/06

Perfect logic Ryan!
---Pharisee on 12/13/06

i truely believe that you can talk to a jw as a person and tell him/her that the things that GOD took you out of, let them know that you are truely a riend. you must pray fervantly before you do any thing though. so that you can get the right words.JESUS said in HIS own words to HIS deciples, i am in MY father and HE in ME, WE are one. and in john 1:1 it says that in the begining was the word, the word was with GOD,the word was GOD.pray before making a judgement might make it easier to help.
---ghost on 12/13/06

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Mrs Morgan,

I did not say I do not believe in the Trinity.
I did not say that a person should not believe in the Trinity.
I said: Whether or not she believes in the Trinity is irrelevant to her salvation.
I should have said Whether or not she believes in the Trinity is irrelevant to her getting saved.

The Good news of Jesus Christ (the Gospel) does not involve theology lessons.
---Bruce5656 on 12/12/06

It involves a basic comprehension that man is a sinner and cannot save themselves. That Jesus is that salvation.

Theology (study of God)
Pneumatology (study of the Holy Spirit)
Christology (study of Christ)
Eschatology (study of future things)
Soteriology (study of salvation)
etc. can follow conversion.
This persons principle need is conversion not a study in theology.

Show me where Paul taught Trinity before basic salvation. First things first.
---Bruce5656 on 12/12/06

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached
---Bruce5656 on 12/12/06

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