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Jehovah Witness And The Trinity

I'm needing help with what a Jehovah Witness believes about Jesus and the Trinity. I know what scripture says, but what do they believe?

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I still hope someday you will allow God alone to teach you His Word.His love for us is so complete. His Word goes beyond loving kindness.He is Love-With Him ALL things are possible.I trust Yehovah.He will guide and led as He said. The freedom and liberty of loving Him back and knowing forgivness comes with repentance-man can not be judged for seeking Him-personally.Following the Word of God(Yeshua)and not having to focus studing so much Theology.To my understanding God confirms His Word-not the words of man.
By faith I look forward to your liberty of having Christ within you.In that day the liberty of His Love and freedom to love will be so overwhelming- The revelation of the name may just come.
His name is One Zech 14:9,Deut 6:4
---char on 9/1/10


You said: StrongAxe, incorrect, Genesis precicely defines the first ever day as an ordinary earth-rotation day, composed of daytime, ending at evening, and night time, ending at morning. This is a 24hr day.
No, Genesis never mentions "ordinary", "earth rotation", nor "24 hours". You are reading between the lines.

I never said "The creation day is not 24 hours". I said "The Bible nowhere says the creation day is 24 hours", something very different. I accept what Scripture ACTUALLY plainly says. I do not accept what you read into it.
---StrongAxe on 8/31/10

///The Bible also teaches that Jesus (the 'Word') '...was a god' (Jo.1:1). Also prophetically described as a 'Mighty God' at Is.9:6, but not as AlmightyGod.///

So is the Counselor-a god and the Mighty Father-a god--and the everlasting Prince all a god too? so far that does make Tri in unity?
Or is it just One God and a god which makes two?
There are many different bibles out there-but only ONE Word of God---that would be Gods' Word that became flesh-His Word never ceases-and without it nothing was spoken-that would be Aleph silence until spoken-bet.

Besides Me is no other...
---char on 8/31/10

Samuel- Jehovah's Witnesses teach what the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ and that is, Jesus is 'the Son of God' (Jo.1:34).

The Bible also teaches that Jesus (the 'Word') '...was a god' (Jo.1:1). Also prophetically described as a 'Mighty God' at Is.9:6, but not as AlmightyGod.

Even Paul acknowledged, 'just as there are many 'gods' and many 'lords,' there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.' 1 Cor.8:5,6.

Jesus is AT one with God his Father, but Jesus is not his Father. Jesus is the SON of his Father. So Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that there is more than one true God. Bible says the True God is Jehovah (YHWH). His son is Jesus Christ.
---David8318 on 8/31/10

John II- I do not believe God as you say, 'punished this 'god-Jesus' ...for our sins'. Where do you get the idea that God 'punished' Jesus? Are you saying Jesus sinned, and was in need of God's punishment? Please explain further.

Also, it is now clear by your use of the adjective 'this' in terms of 'this god-Jesus' that trinitarians are polytheists. You do believe in 3 gods. Of course, that has to be the case otherwise how else can you explain how 'God raised Jesus (God) up from the dead'? (Ro.10:9)

You evidently agree that 'this' Jesus is separate from 'the' God who resurrected him. But you also believe Jesus is 'God', so thus you do believe in separate God's working independently of eachother. Trinitarians are polytheists.
---David8318 on 8/31/10

I am unable to see how Warwick can deduce from Genesis 19:24 that Jehovah was on earth and in heaven at the same time?

Warwick comes out with the same old objection regarding the Divine name Jehovah. Most Biblical names we read in the English text were not spelt or enunciated in the same way we do in English today. Does Warwick believe people in Jesus day spoke English? How arrogant.

The word Jehovah is from the consonants found in the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH, meaning 'who causes to become'. William Tyndale is thought to have first used 'Jehovah' to vocalise YHWH (Psalm 83:18 older editions of KJV).

Jesus Christ in prayer to Jehovah said, 'I have made your name manifest'. Jo.17:6.
---David8318 on 8/31/10

StrongAxe when I began this dialogue I said you would not accept what Scripture says because you cannot accept what it says. You approach Scripture with a world-view which forces you to reject Scripture's plain meaning. If Scripture contradicts your man-made views you are forced to disregard or reinterpret it.

Your starting belief is in long-ages therefore ordinary 24hr days have to be rejected. Because you start with the wrong belief your understanding is wrong. And you undermine the foundation for the gospel.

On another thread you pointed out JW's reinterpret/retranslate Scripture to support their nonBiblical views. You do the same!

As they say when you point a finger at someone else three are pointing back at you.
---Warwick on 8/31/10

StrongAxe, incorrect, Genesis precicely defines the first ever day as an ordinary earth-rotation day, composed of daytime, ending at evening, and night time, ending at morning. This is a 24hr day.

Incorrect again,'evening' to us today refers to sunset but initially meant dusk, with no mention of the sun as the first days were lit by the light God created first.

Exodus does convey day length otherwise the Israelites would not have known when Sabbath was and their death would follow.

We do know that the 6 days of creation were ordinary earth-rotation days therefore by deduction they were ordinary 24hr days.
---Warwick on 8/31/10

David...if the mormans do not believe in the trinity, how do you explain this?
The Testimony of three witnesses(in BOM)it says:And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

---JIM on 8/31/10

Yehovah declares he has told us the END from the BEGINNING.
Is 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times[the things]that are not [yet]done, saying 'My counsel shall stand and I will do all My pleasure

Are we to believe that this is not true?

If any organization claims they alone have the truth-yet has a date they started-isn't that claiming-Yehovah didn't PROVIDE from HIMSELF-before their existence?-I AM-(I EXIST)these Words came out of Yehovahs mouth-Became flesh,Son of God-Son of man-was Tried and still-PROVEN-Eternal-Beginning to End Ex3:14,Jn8:24-28,-Gen 1:1,Is7:14,9:6,Jn1:1-14,Jn20:28

Col 2:9 In Him ALL the fullness of deity is resident in bodily form
Jn8:58Before Abraham was I AM(I EXIST)
---char on 8/31/10

David,the Watchtower literature supports the correct view of the Deity of Christ.The Bible in Living English translated by Steven T.Byington,published by the Watchtower Society in 1972-correct translation-Col 2:9 "In Him ALL the fullness of deity is resident in bodily form"
To believe God did not tell us the end from the beginning until the Watchtowers translation is not what Yehovah said Is46:10-and against what Immanunel(God with us) repeated in FleshJn6:58 before Abraham was I AM.
Ancient Hebrew definition to letter which defines and locks each word to context-I see No education to this within your explainations-without it you are force to rely on the translation of men.God is Aleph to Tav-His Word-Alpha and Omega.
---char on 8/31/10


I only have a cell phone to respond with...a little tricky...on my return i'd be happy to research whether col 1:15 fits the description of an idiom. The Greek is very straight~forward and, IMO, the addition of 'over' clearly changes the meaning of the verse. Paul simply says Christ is firstborn of creation. Therefore he is included in the group of the 'created'.

Love the NIV, use it all the time, but remember that (most) modern bible translation today is also a money making venture. The NIV admits to leaving God's name out because of their 250k investment. Some of their other choices could be viewed as catering to a particular audience...making those choices suspect in terms of a strict adherance to the original text.
---scott on 8/31/10


Once again:
1) Genesis 1:3-5 define a day as "evening and morning", but do not define "evening" and "morning"
2) "evening" always means "starting at sunset"
3) "sunset" means "when sun goes down" (i.e. when earth rotates relative to sun so observer cannot see sun anymore)
4) Before there was a sun, there could be no sunset
5) Exodus 20:8-11 says nothing about length of days, nor how days are measured - it is totally irrelevant to this discussion
6) The Bible never says 24 hours.
7) You wrote: Regarding 24hrs we today call an earth-rotation day a 24hr day

Right! we today. Not the Bible!
---StrongAxe on 8/31/10

David,God explains what you are confused about-Many others also -you just keep ignoring them.
Immanuel-God with us-His Word became flesh-does the Word cease or does the flesh? Was the Word raised from the dead or the flesh-Son of man?
Habakkuk1:12 said God cannot die-and was right which why the Christ witness to those in prison-Jesus Son of man resurrected.Just as as the Word of God in truth resurrects and bring life to a dead belief to whomsoever believe-
Word is eternal-The Word never ceases-Gods word is eternal.
Who is God?
His Word became flesh-Immanuel God with us-God is never without Glory-2Peter2:3:18...To Him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

Amen means Amen
---char on 8/31/10

David Paul did write in Romans that God raised Jesus from the dead. However in John 2:19 Jesus says He will raise Himself!

Is this a contradiction? Only for the nonTrinitarian as God and Jesus are one and the same. Jesus being fully God and fully man. Jesus the Son of Man, the human, died and was raised again to life and we know through Him we will be raised to life again after death. God the Spirit is eternal and cannot die. Artificial contradictons.

We know Jesus is Almighty God with the Father because both He and the Father are called the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Alpha and the Omega.

As regards 1 Tim.3:16, God the Son was indeed 'taken up in glory' His duty on earth finished.
---Warwick on 8/31/10

How do JW's explain Genesis 19:24 where Jehovah is on earth and in heaven, at the same time?

JW's say the word Trinity in not in Scripture as though this means the Trinity is not a reality. But neither is 'Jehovah' in Scripture. Does that mean Jehovah is not a reality?

Though the word Trinity is not in Scripture the word Godhead is-Colossians 2:9.

BTW David your list of those who say Jesus is 'a god' rather than God is rather underwhelming. And contradicted by the titles Creator, Redeemer et al, Which Jesus shares with the Father.
---Warwick on 8/31/10

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///In fact, 1 Cor.10:4 is an excellent example illustrating why John 1:1 is correctly rendered 'the Word was a god'. The reason being as micha9344 highlights in her glaring omission of the definite article preceding 'petra' at 1 Cor.10:4.///

Not quite-Song of Moses tells us otherwise.

Yahweh is the Rock of His People
Dt32(ALL) you were unmindful of the Rock that begot you,you forgot the God who gave you birth.
Yehovah said He is the only Savior-believe Him or Not.Is 45:21-25...God and Saviour,none beside Me...

THE(ROCK)Word proceeds out of THE mouth-of Yehovah-just as the living water from out of the ROCK-.
Yehovah Spoke-He performs-He Saves.

Is46:9 ...I AM GOD, and none else, I AM God and none like Me,
---char on 8/31/10

David8318, either the Trinity halts where you surmise: 'God cannot raise God', or there is more to realise. God raised Jesus1 from the dead2, and this with mighty power. Now if God punished this 'god-Jesus' - whom you say He created - for our sins then God is unjust, and the raising of this god would be futile3. Or did God devise a plan so wonderful in which we are justified, Satan is defeated, where God takes it out on His own for ours' and His Name's sake?

  1. The Son of Man. N.B. not God Most High - respective Persons.

  2. 'Dead' does not mean out of existance as you JWs believe. God Most High is not subject to anything, even decay.

  3. Without power.
---John_II on 8/31/10

StrongAxe, I asked "Are these days (Genesis 1:5/Numbers 7:12) both the same length-yes or no, and why?"

You replied "I don't know, because the Bible doesn't say whether they are or not."

If you are correct we cannot know what Scripture means. But we do as God has defined what one day is in Genesis 1:3-5, confirmed by Exodus 20:8-11. The writer of numbers can write (confident we will understand)'the first day, the second day' etc because God had already defined what one day is! Do you suggest I could twice say-I work for 6 days-with two different meanings?

Regarding 24hrs we today call an earth-rotation day a 24hr day. Therefore it is correct to call the first earth-rotation day a 24hr day.
---Warwick on 8/30/10

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. (1560 Geneva Bible)

In the 17th Century, the Pilgrims and Puritans that brought the Geneva Bible to North America passed and enforced laws that it's punishable to speak against the Trinity.

Concerning Revelation 2:24, the Geneva Bible's gloss writes, ''The false teachers termed their doctrine by this name, as thogh it contained the most deep knowledge of heavenlie things, & was in deed drawen out of the deep dongeon of hell: by suche termes now the Anabaptists, Libertines, Papistes, Arrians, & c use to beautifie their monstrous errors and blasphemies.'' No doubt that Jehovah witnesses are Arians. I'll stick with I John 5:6-8.
---Kev on 8/30/10

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Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Exodus 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The Bible actually says 'six days'. No reading between the lines there.
It looks like six ordinary days to me.
Which lines are you reading between StrongAxe?
---micha9344 on 8/30/10

When Witnesses deny that JESUS is one with GOD the Father they say He is a god. In effect they are saying there are more then one True GOD. The trinity doctrine works with the Truth that there is only One True GOD. Since JESUS is GOD than we must reconcile this truth with the Bible teaching of only one true GOD.

Remeber Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

We honour the Father with worship. We honour the son by worship.
---Samuel on 8/30/10


I don't know, because the Bible doesn't say whether they are or not.

And as for me ducking the question - you have been ducking the "show chapter and verse where the Bible mentions the words '24 hours' in the definition of a day" many many times.

You said: As to 24hrs God said His 6 days of creation and 1 rest are all the same length and the same length as the days the Israelites lived (Exodus 20:8-11), ordinary 24hr days

That says nothing about hours, let alone 24, and nothing about length, let alone same length. You must be reading between the lines. I make claims based on what the Bible ACTUALLY says - and challenge claims others make based on what the Bible does not.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/10

Micha9344 cynical attempt to falsify the Greek rendering of 1 Corinthians 10:4 is indicative of trinitarians chasing their false doctrine into scripture.

In fact, 1 Cor.10:4 is an excellent example illustrating why John 1:1 is correctly rendered 'the Word was a god'. The reason being as micha9344 highlights in her glaring omission of the definite article preceding 'petra' at 1 Cor.10:4.

Everyone can see the def.article 'ho' preceding 'petra'. This identifies 'Christ' as 'the rock' under discussion in verse 4. However, at John 1:1, there is no def.article preceding 'theos' with relation to 'the Word'. Thus, 'theos' here is anarthrous and does not identify the Word as 'the God' it is with, but describes what 'the Word' is- 'a god'.
---David8318 on 8/30/10

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StrongAxe I notice you ducked the question:

Genesis 1:5 and Numbers 7:12 both contain "the first day."

Are these days both the same length-yes or no, and why?
---Warwick on 8/30/10

Micha9344 fails to understand the similarities between John 1:1 & Acts 28:6, and the reasons for my comparison, to highlight that context does have a bearing on the translation.

In John 1:1 and Acts 28:6, the Greek word 'theos', is anathrous (no definite article). In Greek, the definite article is usually 'ho', meaning 'the'. But in these 2 verses, 'ho theos' is not used, only 'theos' without the def.article.

Without the def.article, Acts 28:6 would literally read 'him to be god'. All translators know Paul isn't 'GOD', so context demands the English indefinite article 'a' to be used because Greek doesn't have the indef.article.

Same holds true with Jo.1:1- 'theos en ho logos' is accurately rendered, 'the Word was a god'.
---David8318 on 8/30/10

StrongAxe you said I hadn't shown any Scripture which say what creation day-length is. Demonstrably untrue!

As to 24hrs God said His 6 days of creation and 1 rest are all the same length and the same length as the days the Israelites lived (Exodus 20:8-11), ordinary 24hr days.

It is also clear that at Genesis 1:5 God is speaking of an ordinary earth-rotation day when He says-there was evening (the end of daylight) and there was morning (the end of nighttime)-the first day. The same formula given for each of His 6 creation days. God says added together these make the first day, the third day, the fifth day etc-6 equal-length ordinary 24hr days.

Conversely your view has no Scriptural support.
---Warwick on 8/30/10


I didn't say it was supported by the Greek. The word is not in the Greek, but in the English translation. This is often done in translations if a word not in the original is implied by the translation. Common examples are articles like a, prepositions like of and to, etc.

I said it made sense in English idiomatic usage - a "king of something" is a king over that thing. A lord of something is a lord over that thing. The firstborn of a group has special rights of inheritance over and above everyone else in that group. These are all implied by the meanings of the English words king, lord, etc. - and not by any kind of theological agenda.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/10

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The trinity contradicts many important Bible teachings.

Romans 10:9, 'God raised him (God) up from the dead'. In this trinitarian scenario, explain how 'God raised God' up from the dead? Evidently trinitarians do not believe God is eternal.

Habakkuk 1:12, 'O my God, my Holy One, you do not die'. Jesus "the Son of God" died for our sins. Thus, Jesus is not AlmightyGod, because Habakkuk said God cannot die.

1 Tim.3:16, trinitarians say, 'God was... received up in glory'. But AlmightyGod is the personification of glory. Do trinitarians believe God was without glory at some point? Who 'received' God?

Are any trinitarians able to explain these trinity contradictions?
---David8318 on 8/30/10

1.In covernant-Yehovah Father
2.In Word-Son-Yeshua-God is Savior
3.As teacher and guide-Holy Spirit
I AM-Ex3:14,Jn8:58
(Thy NAME)Jn 17
Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me,that they may be One, as We are.
Are His Words-Not Him?Is 55:10-11,Is45,Jn1:1-15,Jn14
Is He not Holy?-Hallowed be Thy Name-Mat6:9
Is He not Spirit?Jn 4:24
Is 9:6
Is He NOT-Immanual-God with us
He teaches us In Spirit-Holy Spirit
Jesus Christ-The name we used to Invoked.
Eph1:21,Phil2:9-11-Name above every name?
Is45:15,Acts 4:12-Saviour
Luke 1,:17,Acts 16:18-Demons subject to?
Lk24:47-Repentance and Forgiveness preached in?
Jn14:36-name Holy Spirit is called upon?
Acts 3:16-Authority is invoked?
---char on 8/30/10

FYI-Interesting read--
"Crisis of Conscience" Author Raymond Franz and former member of the Governing body of the Jehovah witness society.Raymonds' Uncle Frederick Franz was acknowledged as the organizations' principal Bible scholar.The translation committee is now known to be a group of five men-only one had little hebrew or greek training-failed a simple Hebrew test in the court of Law in Edinburgh Scotland.-The support of johannes Greber translation of JESUS WAS A god- 1980 Watchtower magazine printed nearly a full page on Greber and his spiritism which was from the occult known author of "Communication with the Spirit World of God" He claims spirits helped him in translation of the New testement.
---char on 8/30/10

IE The Father calls Jesus His "Son".Jesus calls God his "Father" using this "relationship" so we humans can understand. 1st no father and son are the same age (a no brainer)God created a Son Rev.3.14.and Col.1.15 and together they created all things Jn.1.3. What's the mystery?
---1st_cliff on 1/3/07
Amen! i'm no longer associated with the Jw's, but i never supported the false trinity theory. Thankyou for showing this.After studying scriptures on my own ,not related to churches I am defintly a non-trinitarian. Jesus is my king, my spiritual brother. his father is my father. no trinity needed. Who can't understand that?
---candice on 8/30/10

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Micha9344, I believe you have just 'shot yourself in the foot' in your assertion that John 1:1 is 'much closer grammatically' to 1 Corinthians 10:4.

You omit the 'definite article' at 1 Cor.10:4. You posted 'petra de en ho Christos', when in fact it reads 'ho petra de en ho Christos'. So it is not how you say, 'Rock was the Christ'. It is '...the/that rock was the Christ', the 'rock' under discussion in verse 4.

John 1:1 does not read, 'ho theos en ho logos'. If it did then it would be 'much closer grammatically' to 1 Cor.10:4, and it would identify 'the God' of verse 1 as 'the logos'. But John 1:1 doesn't say this, rather it reads, 'theos en ho logos', without the def.article. Context and grammar agree with, 'the Word was a god'.
---David8318 on 8/30/10

'Over' can't be supported by the Greek. It's a theologically driven rendering. Few (even trinitarian) translations were willing to add this word even though it would support their theology and understanding of the verse. It's an addition. Non~Jw, Jason BeDuhn comments on this in his book 'Truth in translation'.
---scott on 8/30/10

Others who render John 1:1 as 'the Word was a god':

'and the word was a god.' The New Testament in an Improved Version. Archbishop Newcome, 1808.

'and a god was the word.' The Emphatic Diaglott. Benjamin Wilson, 1864.

'and the Word was a divine being.' La Bible du Centenaire. Maurice Goguel, 1928.

'and the Word was divine.' The Bible- An American Translation. JMP Smith & EJ Goodspeed, 1935.

'and of a divine kind was the Word.' Das Neue Testament. Ludwig Thimme, 1946.

'and the Word was a God.' The New Testament. JL Tomanek, 1958.

'and godlike kind was the Logos.' Das Evangelium nach Johannes. Johannes Schneider, 1978.
---David8318 on 8/30/10


Idioms in one language often add/remove words in another. The problem is when words NOT implied are added.

"over" clarifies (but does not change) the English. "King of the Jews" means "King over the Jews". "King of Kings" means "King over all Kings". Under Jewish law, "firstborn" is a legal term regarding rights of inheritance, so "over" makes sense here.

"other" is only implied *IF* one PRE-SUPPOSES Jesus was created. Someone not familar with Greek might use such a verse as "proof" Jesus was created, lifting this unsupported doctrine up by its own boostraps.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/10

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When YOUR words come out of YOUR mouth-are they not equal to YOU?
Are they not declaring---YOU?
When YOU give YOUR word to someone-do YOU actually do what YOU said YOU would do?

If YOU don't and YOU have someone else do what YOU said YOU would do---did YOU do it or someone else?

Is 55:15-24(ALL) So shall MY WORD be that goeth forth out of MY MOUTH: it shall not return unto ME VOID, but IT SHALL accomplish that which I please, and if shall prosper [in the thing] where to I SEND IT.
Is 45:21...GOD and Saviour, there is none besides ME....

We are only human and still capable of doing what we say we will do.
God is so much Greater---ALL THINGS are possible--His capability is SO MUCH MORE and beyond mans.
---char on 8/29/10

greetings from kauai.

The NIV uses the word 'over' creation at col 1:15.
Is the word 'over' in any greek Ms.?
---scotf on 8/30/10


Please cite chapter and verse where the Bible ANYWHERE mentions a day is 24 hours. The traditional Biblical day is always from sunset to sunset - and that is USUALLY 24 hours, but not always. Where the two differ, it is sunset to sunset that determines the day length, NOT the stopwatch. A good example is the day Joshua commanded the sun to stand still over Gibeon - extending the length of the day so his army could be victorious.

(Also, why are you dragging this tired argument into this blog? This is about The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity, not about the days of Creation).
---StrongAxe on 8/30/10

The Jehovah's Witnesses often alter words in scripture when they conflict with their own theological interpretations.

One egregious example is in Colossians 1:16-20, saying "Because by means of him all [other] things were created" and similar phrases. The word "other" is not in the Greek, and is not implied by Greek grammar. However, they believe that Jesus is not God, but a created being (the first thing God created). As such, Jesus could not have created himself, so according to their own theology, the word "other" must be inserted here, or the else scripture contradicts their theology.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/10

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'The same rule of Greek grammar is seen for example at Acts 28:6. People didn't think Paul was 'God', but 'a god'.'-David8318 on 8/29/10
Still using this verse to support your false doctrine I see.
Acts 28:6b...he was a god (theon auton einai)(god he was)(noun noun verb)
John 1:1b...the Word was God(theos en ho logos)(God was the Word)(noun verb noun)
This is much closer grammatically to:
1Cr 10:4b...that Rock was Christ(petra en ho christos)(Rock was the Christ)(noun verb noun).
You may want to try to find a better grammatical example of your false interpretation.
---micha9344 on 8/29/10

David who other than those of the Watchtower Society say that John 1:1 should read "And the word was a god" ?
---Warwick on 8/29/10

Gen3:15,Is 9:6-9,Jn1:1,Mat 1:10-20,Cor 2
Satan is defeated-he can NOT create-He can only duplicate what is AlREADY IN EXISTENCE.
His goal?-convince man That Gods' Word is not equal in power once HIS Word became Flesh- result? If man does not believe God-HIMSELF-provides ALL their needs-They would need to rely on Man to teach.1Jn2:22-29
God Himself-performs His Word-confirming it
As Father He provides it-In-Word-He spoke(Immanuel)
In Spirit He confirms-(Holy Sprit)
He alone gets the Glory.
Satan brings another word-instead.To Cause-fear of Gods' true One Way to-Himself-believing Him-In-Word confirmed by Him in Spirit(TRI-unity)
Satan Duplication?-Babylonian god:anu-god of Heaven
enlil-god of earth
enki-god of water
---char on 8/29/10

David you acknowledge Numbers 7 describes everyday ordinary 24hr days. Rather obvious isn't it as that is exactly how we use the word 'day' when accompainied by a numeral i.e. the first day or 1 day.

But you say Genesis 1 is "God's count of time." This reasoning is flawed, contradicted by Scripture, grammar and logic because:

1) God is eternal, therefore completely outside of time. He has no time.

2) The Bible was written for man, not God. And in our terms.

3) In Exodus 20:8-11 God says His 6-days of creation and 7th-of rest are of the same length as mans 6-days of work and 7th-of rest.

And further you are unable to give one Scripture which supports the days of creation as other than 24hr days!
---Warwick on 8/29/10

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John 1:1 is a favorite for trinitarians and is always raised in a discussion of the trinity.

It's not only Jehovah's Witnesses who understand when the anarthrous (no article) predicate precedes the verb as in 'theos en ho logos' - the noun describes the verb. Thus a correct, non-trinitarian rendering will be, 'the Word was a god'.

The same rule of Greek grammar is seen for example at Acts 28:6. People didn't think Paul was 'God', but 'a god'.

At John 1:1, how can the Word also be the God it is with? The rendering 'the Word was a god', thus agrees with the grammar and context of the verse. The trinitarian rendering, 'the Word was God' however, does not agree with the context or grammar but with the false trinity doctrine.
---David8318 on 8/29/10

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in one AlmightyGod- Jehovah (Ps.83:18 KJV), from the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, YHWH.

Jehovah has a 'son', Jesus who was anointed with HolySpirit by his Father, thus becoming 'the Christ' (or 'anointed one')- Mt.3:16,17.

Jesus Christ is not 'God incarnate'. The word 'incarnate' is never used Biblically with reference to Jesus Christ. If God wanted to 'incarnate' himself as a man, why would He need to cause Himself to be born in the natural way in order to become flesh?

Thus, trinitarians use the Hellenic philosophy of 'metaphysics' (Neo-Platonism) to describe 'God's incarnation', saying Jesus is 'fully God and fully man'. This is not a Bible teaching.

Rather, Jesus is the 'Son of God'- Jo.1:34.
---David8318 on 8/29/10

God creates. Satan perverts.
God, the Word, and the Spirit were all here before Satan could pervert it through Babylonian false Gods.
Who wrote Gen 1 and Numbers 7?
For whom were they written?
---micha9344 on 8/29/10

'Talk of the Devil'- I'll take Warwick as an example and his comments (8/29/10) which show that as a trinitarian, because Warwick reduces God to a man, he is unable to distinguish between God's count of time and that of mans.

Genesis 1:5 and Numbers 7:12 are used comparably by Warwick to determine the length of God's creative day.

One scripture refers to God's count of time, the other to do with mans count of time. Can you tell which one's which?
---David8318 on 8/29/10

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\\Jehovah's Witnesses believe what the Bible teaches.\\

Of course, they change the Bible to make it say what they believe.

See, for example, what they did to John 1:1.

Now their own translation says in Isaiah 43:10 that there will be NO God formed after Jehovah.

So is this "Word" who is "a god" (as if Biblical Greek had the distinction between capital and lower case letters) a true god or false god?

Either way, Jehovah's False Witnesses have one god too many.
---Cluny on 8/29/10

Jehovah's Witnesses believe what the Bible teaches. As neither 'trinity' nor the concept of the trinity is found in the Bible, they do not believe it.

The trinity can easily be traced back to Ancient Babylon's triadic worship, later fashioned by Hellenic philosophers (Plato) so that 3 god's (triad) can be worshipped as 'one' (triune) god, thus conforming to the 'shema'- Deut.6:4. Trinitarians use Neo-Platonism to explain the trinity.

Jehovah's Witnesses expose the trinity for what it is- a FALSE DOCTRINE, which pre-dates Christianity, and designed by Satan to conceal the true identity of AlmightyGod Jehovah (Ps.83:18 KJV). It also reduces the AlmightyGod to that of a man.

Jesus Christ is 'the Son of God' (Jo.1:34)
---David8318 on 8/29/10

StrongAxe, on another thread you wrote "You have yet to show a single scripture that ACTUALLY says what the creation day-length is.' Not true many Scriptures which prove creation day-length have been given. The reality is that you are unable to supply one Scripture which supports your view.

As I said previously those who stray from what Scripture says will not accept what Scripture says if it contradicts their nonBiblical views.

You are of course free to hold nonBiblical or antiBiblical views, and I am just as free to demonstrate your error with Scripture.

Genesis 1:5 and Numbers 7:12 both contain "the first day."

Question: Are these days both the same length-yes or no, and why?
---Warwick on 8/29/10

Lawrence, you have trouble typing out words in their entirety?
---Cluny on 8/28/10

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st - ax

For the same devil 2nd.Cor,11 v's 14 - 15 that gave man the deceiving ideas for the Man - made trin rcc & her daughters churches Rev.17 v's 4 - 6, the devil also gave man the deceiving ideas for the Man - made j - witness, buddha, hindu, hare krishna, muslam god, the moony's etc.
---Lawrence on 8/28/10


I find it curious that you lump the Jehovah's Witnesses in with the Catholics, since the Jehovan's Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity.

Donna9759 (if she still even reads this blog):

If you know what the Bible says on the matter, why do you even care what the Jehovah's Witnesses say about it? If it's the same, you already know - and if it's different, you don't WANT to know.
---StrongAxe on 8/27/10

I encourage you to Ask God Himself.
He knows His Word-teaches and guides by His Spirit.(1 Cor 2)1Jn 2:26-29
Have Him show you the Hebrew-Greek and Aramaic language. The ancient Hebrew from pictrograph is the original Language he chose to use first. Each ancient Hebrew letter is given a definition-When you understand this the letters define-the Word and context of scripture in agreement.He tells us the End from the beginning-following His Word leads you right back to Him-He is the Beginning and the end.His Word is inspired down to each letter.(Jn1:1-15)
Worship God-by studing and having Him teach you His Word-for the pure sake of loving Him and fellowshipping with Him.
Let His will be done-
God bless.
---char on 8/27/10

I'm needing help with what a Jehovah Witness believes about Jesus and the Trinity. I know what scripture says, but what do they believe

Have you triued asing a Jehovah Witness?
You do realize that any information you get is second hand and propaganda?
---francis on 8/2/10

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The j - witness & the trin relig org's begiining with the rcc ARE Man - made ideas that came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15.
---Lawrence on 7/31/10

All you need to know is what a Christian believes. The Holy Spirit can deliver this person from error. If you are sincere, why not fast and pray for their spiritual eyes to be opened to the Truth? We have all witnessed that denominational arguments rarely change a mindset. Prayer and fasting.
---Trace on 8/6/07

Eloy; Abraham and Issac prefigured God and Christ,as father sacrificing (or offering to) his son. Was Issac also Abraham? were they the same age? Think about it Eloy.God would not have used "father and son" as terms for He and Jesus if they were the same person! Common sense will tell you that much. God knows how we think, He would not use ambiguous terms!
---1st_cliff on 1/6/07

If you r scared the JWs will indoctrinate you, then wouldnt it be better still to get the answer from them who know the teachings better than any of us? Just reading the blogs on this site makes me shiver with cold to know that christians rip each other apart. So unchristian. I still advise, Go see whatever church u want to know of their teachings.
---billy on 1/5/07

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The Trinity.

God in three infinite, eternal, equal persons....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
---Joel on 1/5/07

The JW's deny t6hat Jesus and God are one, co-eternal, and hencer are Arians. If you deny that God and Jesus have been oner from the beginning, you are an Arian.
Arianism was condemned at the Council of Nicea, 325AD. The Nicene Creed was written against the Arians and as such is against the JW's.
---mike8384 on 1/5/07

I would not advise anyone to go to J.W.s for information. They will simply indoctrinate you. They'll come to your door often enough without you going to them!! There are some excellent books on the market written by people who have LEFT the J.W.s and are now Christians. It is their stories you need to hear. Type 'Released from the Watchtower' into Google and you'll find a book of that name and links to many others.
---m.p.a. on 1/5/07

1st cliff, The Holy Ghost is not an impersonal power or force, any more than any other person is, for not only is the "Counsellor" called by the personal pronoun "He", but also according to scripture (Please read John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7,8,13-15 very carefully) he both hears words and speaks words. Sometimes he is called Siloah, meaning "Sent".
---Eloy on 1/4/07

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1st cliff, The personal pronouns "he", "him" and "his" which are used in reference to the Holy Ghost, indeed all refer to the masculine person of the Holy Ghost; which is the one spirit of God, the spirit of the Lord, and the spirit of Christ.
---Eloy on 1/4/07

Jehovah's False Witnesses are Arian, not Trinitarian.

They believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael--created--made flesh, who did not actually rise from the dead.

In other words, they believe in a second-class Jesus which can offer only a second-class salvation, which they admit is the best most of them can hope for.
---Jack on 1/4/07

Eloy;The Holy Spirit is not "another God",actually the power used by Christ and God (Father)H.S is not a "person" The Son has a name (Jesus) the Father has a name (YHWH) The H.S has no personal name Holy Spirit is "what" He is not "who" He is. The fact the he is called "He" does not make him a person!
---1st_cliff on 1/4/07

Being led of the Holy Spirit, sensitive to His leading, is knowing that God will allow some to plant, some to water, and some to reap the harvest of a soul. Fast and pray for yourself, to know what your part should be. We cannot be all things to all people, that's why God uses the Body of Christ as a whole to accomplish His perfect will. If you're not seeing results, seek God for what His purpose is for you in all of this.
---Trace on 1/4/07

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It is the Holy Spirit that brings correction, conviction, and repentance.

If you have repeatedly given this person the Good News, allow the Holy Spirit to move on their heart. The Holy Spirit always exceeds where our flesh fails. If you force or argue, you may push them further away. Seek God, He may share with you, 'unique' ways to make inroads. Kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, longsuffering, peace, joy, love, faithfulness.
---Trace on 1/4/07

Donna, go see the JWs and learn of their doctrines..why do you bother asking here when all you will get is so many strange answers..and arguements about whose right and whose wrong...get it from the source dear...
---mam on 1/4/07

Their false doctrine is blasphemous, called, "diety dissing". They are polytheist and believe that Jesus is less than God. They do not believe that Jesus is the only Creator God. They believe that the Father is one God, and the Son is another lesser God, and the Holy Ghost is even another God. But Jesus is called the Everlasting Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, because there is only 1 God, even the devils believe this and tremble at the only Everlasting Lord God of heaven and earth.
---Eloy on 1/3/07

They do not believe in blood transfusions in order to save a person's life whom needs blood, and they do not believe in celebrating Christmas, and they believe that hell is just the common grave and not a place of everlasting punishment, and I think she said that she believes this is heaven here on earth, and that only their membership is of the 144,000 thousand spoken of in the book of Revelation.
---Eloy on 1/3/07

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They neither believe in God manifesting in 3 persons nor in God as One being able to manifest Himself in different forms to different people. They see Jesus as the chief angel of God. The H.S. is an active force of God. To have eternal life one must be a part of the WatchTower Society (their doctrinal teachings). They have "updated" the bible in their own translation NWT, making changes to match them rather than changing to match the Bible, as other world/international translations have done.
---mikefl on 1/3/07

AMEN 1st Cliff, Im with you 100%
---Billy on 1/3/07

JWs view of the trinity is similar to mine and many others.IE The Father calls Jesus His "Son".Jesus calls God his "Father" using this "relationship" so we humans can understand. 1st no father and son are the same age (a no brainer)God created a Son Rev.3.14.and Col.1.15 and together they created all things Jn.1.3. What's the mystery?
---1st_cliff on 1/3/07

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