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AntiChrist Will Save Israel

The antichrist will come talking about saving Israel and bringing it security. Will the Christians be the main backer of the antichrist since this is a major theme of Christianity today?

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 ---Jimbo on 1/29/07
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Naulon,

Healings in the NT were confirmed not by hospitals and the news, but by physical results and testimony.

When I was a baby my mother had a golf-ball sized tumor removed from behind one ear. She recovered and seemed fine. She became a Christian when I was six.

35 years ago she was diagnosed with breast cancer and told she needed a mastectomy. They scheduled the surgery, but she chose not to go through with it. She had prayed for God to heal her and believed He would. I was young and not a Christian, and I remember being terrified and angry at her faith, her church, at my father for supporting that decision. She received no chemo or any medical treatment.

She celebrated her 70th birthday last month.
---Laurie on 2/5/09


Naulon, prophecy doesn't have to be accompanied with signs and wonders. What about John the baptist? He didn't perform and miracles. The gift of prophecy is merely the ability to hear what the Spirit of God is saying, and to declare it to God's people. Prophecy is foolishness to unbelievers. Only God's sheep hear the voice of their Shepherd. Signs and wonders can be performed by Satan. Miracles happen all of the time and the unbelievers usually try to accredit the person doing the miracle with the glory, rather than glorifying God. And if you think the Day of the Lord has already come, then just read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Keep studying brother! Jesus will finish the work that He's started in you! God bless!
---Bryan on 2/4/09


naulon,
only the Enemy would actually ask God to prove himself. And I did not say there was a healer at my Church. I said healings. brother, there are miraculous healings everyday and we don't hear about them on the news.

Brother, Healing is not just physical. It is Spiritual as well.

Brother, you have twisted the word so bad to mean what you believe. I wonder if the reason why you believe Jesus has already come is so you can live how you want. God says there would men claiming they know and they would be the enemy in disguise. False prophets and teachers. What you say here has got me very suspicious of what you think is the Word.
---miche3754 on 2/1/09


miche3754, I'm not talking about preaching and teaching when I use the term "prophesy". I'm talking about direct revelation from God and there is no evidence it is happening. 1) It must be accompanied with signs an wonders but nothing verifiable takes place. If true, have your healer go to the nearest hospital and empty it by healing everyone. Get him on the news so the whole world can see. Then preach the gospel. 2) Even if someone prophesied we would have to compare it to scripture, believe what matches scripture and toss the rest aside. So what's the point? We have the scripture already. Who needs prophesy? 3) Paul said prophesy would cease when the church was consummated. That consummation happened in A.D. 70.
---Naulon on 2/1/09


naulon- I don't know where you live, but first off, prophecy doesn't have to be spoken in "unknown tongues". And we certainly do have prophets.
So, yep, the Holy Spirit is still working. The fields are white for the harvest right now and the workers are few, RIGHT NOW.
The sifting hasn't even started yet. We are still wheat and tares growing together.

Not sure what church body you worship with but in mine, The Holy Spirit moves greatly still. Healing, prophesying. You can't teach nor preach without the Holy Spirit. So how can you say the Holy Spirit is done and no longer striving with man?
---miche3754 on 2/1/09




miche3754, "These are suppose to literal physical signs." I don't deny they are literal physical signs. I deny that the metaphors are literal. The sun, moon and stars represent the literal ruling forces in Israel at the time that lost their influence and power prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

"he is talking about the Holy Spirit pouring out. Its not finished yet brother." Oh yes it is. There are no manifestations of prophesy or prophesy in other languages (tongues) along with confirming healings and other signs and wonders today. The only time that happened was in the 1st Century last days of the Old Covenant and Peter identified it. (Acts 2)
---Naulon on 1/31/09


What evidence have you found that such happened? - naulon

Brother, God has showed us literal proof of this happening in our own universe to other stars that God has created.

I haven't misunderstood what you mean by "Spiritual"- God is Spirit and MUST be worshiped in Spirit and in truth.
These are suppose to literal physical signs.
"Signs and wonders".
Again I believe when Jesus said this generation, he is talking about the Holy Spirit pouring out. Its not finished yet brother. But when It stops pouring out, then The End will soon come.
---miche3754 on 1/30/09


Miche, my view is the same. I believe he is very passionate about God. It is the Preterist view that has him caught up on what he is saying just as you mentioned. I am not much into their teachings but the preterist view is not known very well because it is only a small group that have taken a different stand. The RCC did something similar in the early church. Origin believed that Scripture is one vast allegory in which every detail is symbolic. Augustine justified his allegorical interpretations which he interpreted to mean that a literal interpretation of the Bible kills, but an allegorical or spiritual interpretation gives life. So there has been many views through history. He is answering from the preterist view.
---MarkV. on 1/30/09


miche3754,

Don't misunderstand the word "spiritual". I'm not using it the conventional way to mean "psychological". God is spirit and has some kind of "spiritual body". It's not possible to understand what extra dimensional beings might be like but I believe that's the kind of existence awaits us. (1 Cor. 15:42-44)

Because the Word is clear as to the time the events were to take place we have to look to the 1st Century to see if the sun literally turned color or that meteors fell from the sky. What evidence have you found that such happened? One of the keys to understanding the metaphors is to know when they were to occur.
---Naulon on 1/29/09


markv, I know brother. And I know that naulon is just as passionate about God.

But I still believe he is might be confusing the things of the Spirit with the things of literal value in the Bible. I have even read scripture that have BOTH spiritual and literal meaning.
And I don't mean to be a pain. I am just trying to learn and understand.
I have so many different opinions of what is going on in Revelations, that I can get confused as anyone would.
I still don't "see" what naulon is talking about or how.
---miche3754 on 1/29/09




Miche, with my answer I didn't mean Naulon was right on his answers only that I thought he was not calling God a liar.
I wrote what I did because it is important to understand from what perspective the writer of Scripture was coming from. All Scripture is truth, but when God speaks in Scripture it is always truth when the words come from Him. When they come from man, like the writer or satan, they might not always be truth. Writers put their own feelings when they write, and Satan distorts what he says in the stories told to us. But nevertheless all of Scripture is the Inspired Word of God and is presented to us in that way.
---MarkV. on 1/29/09


naulon,
how do you explain that God will give Christians new bodies?
And what about the judgement of both the saint and sinners... the final judgement?

Where does this come into all of your total spiritualism?
I am not being antagonistic, its just some of the things you say just don't make literal or spiritual sense.

You also don't believe that when the Sun gets ready to die, it turns what color, naulon? Red.. and stars falling from the sky.. maybe meteors... again, your view that its all Spiritual and none literal, is an insult to God.
---miche3754 on 1/29/09


Laurie,

I'll recommend two less pricey books. Max King's, "The Spirit of Prophesy" available at Amazon and James Stuart Russell's "The Parousia" available online for free, at preterist archive dot com. They should answer a lot of your questions. (I refer to them often.) Planet preterist has 20 newer titles I've not read. Anyone of them might be just as good.

The reason the resurrection is spiritual is because heaven is. Yes, Jesus resurrection was physical and he had a physical body till he went back to the father. How else was he going to prove he rose from the dead? It doesn't necessarily follow that we must also be raised physically though.
---Naulon on 1/29/09


Kathr4453,

You're right, in Jerusalem on Pentecost, there were Jews from every nation under heaven.

Paul, addressing the Colossians who were mainly Gentile, said the "...truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world" and "...if indeed you continue in the faith...and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven."

Jews from every nation heard the gospel, and it had come to all the world, having been preached to every creature under heaven. I don't think this means that every person literally heard it, and it kind of lines up with Jesus command to make disciples of all the nations.

Just a thought.
---Laurie on 1/29/09


Laurie,

I'll recommend two less pricey books. Max King's, "The Spirit of Prophesy" available at Amazon and James Stuart Russell's "The Parousia" available online for free, at preterist archive dot com. They should answer a lot of your questions. (I refer to them often.) Planet preterist has 20 newer titles I've not read. Anyone of them might be just as good.

The reason the resurrection is spiritual is because heaven is. Yes, Jesus resurrection was physical and he had a physical body till he went back to the father. How else was he going to prove he rose from the dead? It doesn't necessarily follow that we must also be raised physically though.
---Naulon on 1/29/09


The antichrist will seek to divide Jerusalem and make a covenant between Israel and the Palestinians. He will even try to deceive the elect if possible, but I believe it will be extremely hard for that pride filled devil not to manifest himself, so I don't think he'll do that great of a job at hiding his true identity. He's to stuck on himself not to try and declare himself to be the messiah!
---Bryan on 1/28/09


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miche3754,

You seem to be having difficulty identifying metaphors. The sun moon and stars are metaphors for the ruling powers in Israel just as they represented people in Joseph's dream. The Son of man coming in power and glory is also a metaphor for judgment. (Isaiah 19:1, Psalms 18:7-15, Micah 1:3-4 Did the metaphors in these scriptures happen literally?) If you want a more literal application then perhaps the sun turned the color of blood from the smoke during the siege of Israel. Either way, Jerusalem being destroyed is the historical evidence that it took place. The destruction of Israel IS a literal fulfillment. The timing of the 1st Century is correct. How it happened we can disagree on.
---Naulon on 1/28/09


***In respect to the whole world hearing the gospel, I've heard it explained that on the Day of Pentecost, representatives from every nation heard Peter preach, which explains the verses that say the gospel has been preached to every creature under heaven (past tense). It's not so much that some have not heard about God, but that they rejected what they heard and can be seen in nature.***

Laurie, this cannot be so, because ONLY JEWS heard teh Gospel at Pentecost. Cornelius was teh first Gentile saved, and Peter had to go to him.

Paul brough the Gospel to the Gentiles, and was not saved at Pentecost.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/09


I did not say he(naulon) was, markv. I asked a question.

It is pretty simple.
Naulon seems to be ignoring exact scripture on this point.
That God exists outside of our definition of time.
That God knows the whole entire world.
When He said the whole world, he meant the entire world.
God said, too, when the end comes He will not always be here with us.
But for some reason, naulon, you ignore these. Including the literal of the Sun turning red and other actual signs. Stars falling from the sky, etc.
~God Bless you~
---miche3754 on 1/28/09


Paul said the gospel had come to the Colossians as it had to all the world, and that it had been preached to every creature under heaven. This was a past tense statement.

The OT saints didn't hear the gospel until after death. Just as Jesus was the One who preached the gospel to them, it stands to reason He will be the One to preach to those who didn't hear it due to circumstances beyond their control, such as mental deficiencies, growing up in a spiritually dark nation, etc.
---Laurie on 1/28/09


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Miche, I believe Naulon is being sincere in what He said about Paul. I don't think he is calling God a liar as you stated. The word world in the bible has different meanings depending on the context, depending on the author which here it is Paul and what his intend was.
The question is really, what was the perspective view of the Author? The authors of Scripture sometimes write as if looking through the eyes of God (as spokeman for God, noumenologically, from God's perspective) particularly in moral matters, but in narrative sections they frequently describe things the way they appear from a human perspective (as reporters speaking Phenomenologically, from man's perspective).
---MarkV. on 1/28/09


miche3754,

I think Paul and the other NT writers understood the meaning of Christ's words. Paul understood the condition of the gospel going out to all the world to be fulfilled in his day and he expected the Parousia to be imminent as did all the other NT writers. I'm going to stick with them thank you.

I still don't understand your idea of "generation of the HS". Can you give me a biblical reference? You are "hard hearted" because you resist believing the clear time statements of the NT writers.
---Naulon on 1/28/09


Naulon,
You are forgetting that Jesus knew the rest of the world when the disciples did not.
He was at the beginning. Do you think his meaning for world was only the KNOWN world?
Of course not.
But you still refuse to see that.
As for babies being born, Christ says that one day his spirit- the Holy Spirit will not always strive with man. You don't take this in to account in your time line.

The Generation of the Holy Spirit is the generation when it strives with men.
Not our physical generation. Also, you aren't accounting for the fact that God lives outside of our time.
And I am not hard hearted, just a student striving like you to find the truth.
This we live in is not the New heaven or new Earth.
---miche3754 on 1/28/09


miche3754,

You are redefining the word "world" in a way it wasn't used or intended. If one takes your logic to it's logical conclusion then Christ will never return because there will always be "somebody" who hasn't heard the message yet. 134 million babies are born every year so you are never going to have 100% of the world having heard the gospel. It will always be significantly less. You will have to drew the line somewhere so why replace Paul's definition? Paul had the prophetic gift. He said the gospel had "been proclaimed to every creature under heaven." fulfilling Christ's prophesy.
---Naulon on 1/28/09


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miche3754, I'm not following you. What is the "generation of the holy spirit"?

I never called Christ a liar but if you insist the "parousia" didn't happen in "this generation" or during the lifetime of his apostles as he said it would, than YOU make him into a liar. In fact the whole liberal movement of the early 20th Century got started because they believed the prophesies didn't come true. They believe Jesus was mistaken. You have a choice. Either he was mistaken or your idea of "HOW" Christ returned is wrong. I concluded my ideas were wrong and began searching for answers. Being stubborn and hard hearted won't help you find the truth.
---Naulon on 1/27/09


Miche, I believe you are correct. If you just look at the time of Israel, only the nation of Israel had the gospel all through history. All the other nations were never previlged to have the gospel. Even when Paul and other were sent to preach the gospel, many times they were told not to go to certain cities or towns and go to others. Those people also missed the gospel. It is so obvious that in this time, many nations don't have the gospel. The reason for missionaries is so that many more will hear the Word of God. Out of 2or 3 billion people in China itself have never heard the gospel. So I believe you are correct, preach to the whole world, but that meant not only to Israel but to all nations.
---MarkV. on 1/27/09


naulon,
Are you calling Christ a liar?
He plainly says behold I come to establish a New Covenant. Jesus said "I" , not the Holy Ghost.
It was established when Jesus' flesh died on the Cross.
That is the establishing of the New Covenant.
The receiving of the Holy Ghost happened at pentecost.
Theses are 2 seperate events.
Jesus established the New Covenant, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is evidence of the New Covenant. The Holy Ghost is a seperate entity. Jesus said his father would send a comforter, one who will teach us all things.
This could not have been done if Jesus hadn't established it already.
---miche3754 on 1/27/09


In respect to the whole world hearing the gospel, I've heard it explained that on the Day of Pentecost, representatives from every nation heard Peter preach, which explains the verses that say the gospel has been preached to every creature under heaven (past tense). It's not so much that some have not heard about God, but that they rejected what they heard and can be seen in nature.

God has commanded us to spread the gospel throughout the world, maybe not so much because it's up to us to make sure we reach every person as it is to allow God to show Himself thru us. My thought is that God has a plan for reaching every individual who has an open heart and mind, and He knows who they are so we can be assured no one will be missed.
---Laurie on 1/27/09


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miche3754, "When he was on the cross and said "it is finished", he was talking about the establishment of the New Covenant,"

When Christ was on the cross and said "it is finished" he only meant his sacrifice for sin was finished. The new covenant had not even begun yet let alone be consummated. The church didn't begin till Pentecost.

Whether one is a preterist or futurist there are still more souls to be saved. Salvation of souls is what the New Covenant is all about. It doesn't suddenly stop upon it's consummation at Christ's return.
---Naulon on 1/27/09


God's word had reached everyone in Paul's day. (Rom. 1:8, Col. 1:6, 23)
---Naulon on 1/25/09
Why do you leave out the rest of the world?
When God said the gopsel must be preached through out the entire world, why don't you accept this literal truth , naulon?
You have missed the literal Word. why do you ignore what God is saying here?
Do you think God is lying or are you just applying what you think?
The Mediteranian was not the entire world. They knew about China, Europe, and they had not heard yet.
Again, when Jesus said "this generation", He meant the generation of the HOLY SPIRIT NOT the fleshly generation.
~God bless you~
---miche3754 on 1/27/09


Naulon,

At times people have gotten very nasty because I ask a lot of questions and don't want to just take their word for what they say. Usually I'm the one getting blasted for DEFENDING the church, not for holding a low view, this is the first time anyone has accused me of that.

Some have been so offended by my defense of the church and have attacked me so viciously I had to develop a thicker skin. It was hard to believe Christians would talk to each other that way, but I found that not everyone is like that, so I hope we can keep the dialogue going in a way that's edifying and glorifying to our Lord.
---Laurie on 1/26/09


Naulon,

Thanks for your comments. The research I've done so far on the preterist view leaves me with more questions than the view I presently hold, and $100 is way more than I spend on any book. One of the biggest problems I have with it is the "spiritual-only" resurrection because the implications of death are not just judicial and spiritual, but physical as well. Why would Jesus encourage Thomas to touch him if His resurrected body wasn't physical? Why did Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:17 that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away and all things have become new, this was before 70 AD. He did not imply the the new creation would have to wait until 70 AD, but that it had already begun.

---Laurie on 1/26/09


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naulon,
God can take a day or a thousand years. He is in charge.
When Jesus says generation, he is speaking not of our literal generation, he is talking about the body of Christ.
The harvest is not done yet.
How can you NOT see that?
Christ's work is not finished in harvesting his followers.
When he was on the cross and said "it is finished", he was talking about the establishment of the New Covenant, NOT THE WORK.
The fields are white for harvest and the workers are few.
~God Bless you~
---miche3754 on 1/26/09


Laurie, I believe "the sea" is in reference to Hades, the place of the dead who were awaiting Christ's return and the resurrection. (Rev. 20:13). With the consummation of the New Covenant kingdom Hades gave up it's dead, thus the reference that there was no longer any "sea".

The loud noise could be in reference to the noise of war as Jerusalem fell or the sound of the trumpet which proceeded the judgment.

The New Jerusalem was in the shape of a cube as was the most holy place in the temple. It represents the New Covenant church in heaven. The best source on Rev. from a preterist perspective is Kurt Simmons but his book is OOP and quite pricey. (Amazon $100.00)
---Naulon on 1/26/09


Naulon,

I didn't see your answer. Maybe I missed it, or it could be that I'm looking for a more detailed answer that explains the significance of a great noise, no more sea and NJ coming down out of heaven.

Perhaps someone else with a preterist view would comment?

I do appreciate the time you've taken to answer my questions. On various occasions I've encountered preterists on blogs, but they tend to have a poor opinion of those who don't hold to their view. It's clear that you've spent a lot of time researching it, and your answers do make a lot of sense, even if I don't agree.
---Laurie on 1/25/09


MICHE3764,

Peter wasn't saying that when God speaks about time it has no meaning. He meant things get done on God's time schedule. What man says takes 1000 years God can do in a day, what man may want to see in a day, God may reveal over 1000 years.

Jesus used "this generation" many times and every time it meant the contemporaneous generation then existing. In fact in the same context as Matthew 24 he had just used it in 23:36 in predicting that the Pharisees of his generation would receive all the punishment stored up for ages and Jerusalem would be left desolate. It happen in their generation in A.D. 70.

God's word had reached everyone in Paul's day. (Rom. 1:8, Col. 1:6, 23)
---Naulon on 1/25/09


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Trav,

The New Covenant church IS the bride of Christ. (Eph. 5:25) It's who he died for.

Laurie, "What is your understanding of the heavens passing away with a great noise, no more sea, and the city coming down out of heaven?"

I believe I already explained it in a recent blog. The New Covenant church is the new Jerusalem within the new heaven and earth.

The main problem of premillennialism is it's rejection of the church as the kingdom of God. It wants to bring back the Old Covenant temporal kingdom which God destroyed.
---Naulon on 1/25/09


Miche3764,

You made a good point, I think God is speaking both literally and spiritually and when you look at it that way it really pulls it all together.
---Laurie on 1/25/09


Naulon,

What is your understanding of the heavens passing away with a great noise, no more sea, and the city coming down out of heaven?
---Laurie on 1/24/09


Laurie, listen to yourself.......
SHAME ON YOU FOR HAVING A LOW VIEW OF CHRIST'S BRIDE THE CHURCH!
---Naulon on 1/23/09

The same could/should be said to a teacher...you...who denies or doesn't know/hasn't seen/or asked who the Bride or Church REALLY is.....in essence by negating the DIVORCED/REDEEMED/forgiven bride AS SELF ORDAINED TEACHER, doing far worse than the person you are accusing.
While your emotion is valid....it is incorrectly applied.
---Trav on 1/24/09


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naulon,
I did not EVER say that the Kingdom of God is not the Church.
Have you ever thought that God is speaking BOTH literal and Spiritual in this aspect?
He says he is coming back for his Kingdom, His bride, the Church.
God also says he destroy this earth literally and Spiritually and Make a New Heaven and New Earth.
And what is meant as "in this generation" to us is a 100 years or so BUT Peter said that a day to God is like a 1000 years to us. This is a really big Key in telling time in the NT.
So when the Disciples said in this generation, they are talking of the Generation of the Kingdom of God, His Church.
He won't be back until his word has reached everyone
---miche3764 on 1/24/09


Naulon ... "(The moderator must have agreed because he let my comment pass without censer.)

Don't be so sure of that.

The moderator lets all sorts of outrageous things through. They believe in free speech
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/24/09


Laurie, Can a city be a bride? Obviously we are dealing in metaphors. The new heaven and earth, new Jerusalem and bride are all metaphors for the New Covenant church where righteousness dwells. Hebrews clearly identifies the new Jerusalem with the New Covenant Church.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, the CITY of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the CHURCH of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of RIGHTEOUS men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a NEW COVENANT, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
---Naulon on 1/24/09


The "elements" that burned up in 2 Pet. 3:11 are the "elements of the Jewish age". The word "stoicheia" is used only five other times outside of 2 Pet 3 all in this way.

Gal 4:3 "we were in slavery under the basic PRINCIPLES of the world.

Gal 4:9 "turning back to those weak and miserable PRINCIPLES? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? "

Col 2:8 "takes you captive ... on human tradition and the basic PRINCIPLES of this world rather than on Christ.

Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic PRINCIPLES of this world, why, ... do you submit to its rules:

Heb 5:12 teach you the ELEMENTARY truths of Gods word all over again.
---Naulon on 1/24/09


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Naulon,

I don't think the New Covenant is described as the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem, etc. I just don't see that in the following passages:

"...the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
---Laurie on 1/23/09


miche3754, "maybe you are mistaken on the scripture you take literally and the ones you take spiritually."

I can live with that. That can be said for all of us.

But a low view of the church Jesus gave his precious life for, I won't let pass without responding despite Mark V's protests. Those who claim the church is not the kingdom of God are committing the same error that Paul so vehemently fought against and which eventually cost him his life. If Paul can be so bold, so can I. Do not slander the Lord's church in my presence! (The moderator must have agreed because he let my comment pass without censer.)
---Naulon on 1/24/09


that is fine naulon, you believe as you wish.

The thing is, have you taken in account of everything literally going on in the world that is literally pointing to the end?
I have.
So, maybe you are mistaken on the scripture you take literally and the ones you take spiritually.
Not saying you are wrong or right, just asking you to take a look at the literal world around you and tell me what you think is going on?
That what Ezekiel and John(revelations) prophesied about is not coming to pass right now. Because from what I see, it is.
---miche3754 on 1/23/09


"SHAME ON YOU"
A person cannot answer a simple question. What is the intent from the heart?
"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man"

Dictionary, "The utterance of a falsehood that damages another's reputation" There is no need for this behavior from anyone. Not even unbelievers.
---MarkV. on 1/23/09


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funny but how the the new covenant have demensions as described in Rev.
---evangelistjerry on 1/23/09


Laurie, listen to yourself. "What the Jews were wrong about was not in believing Jesus would set up a physical kingdom on earth, but in thinking He was going to do it right then." NO Jesus died not for some future physical kingdom he died for the NEW COVENANT CHURCH.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the CHURCH of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.

SHAME ON YOU FOR HAVING A LOW VIEW OF CHRIST'S BRIDE THE CHURCH!
---Naulon on 1/23/09


miche3754, "OT prophecy..not all have been fulfilled. Some are still ripening or yet to be fulfilled."- Not according to Jesus or the NT writers who said it would be soon, within their generation, and that they were in the last hour. Disbelieve them if you will. I won't. I'm the most "literal" person on the site because I take the NT writers at their word and am open to changeing my ideas to fit what scripture says, not what I want or others want me to believe.

Eschatological language is full of metaphors. The New heaven and earth is described as the new Jerusalem, the new mountain, the new temple, the new land, the new kingdom, the new tabernacle, THE NEW COVENANT. The old passed away the new came.
---Naulon on 1/23/09


Naulon,

My approach to studying the Bible is to understand it literally, knowing there are times when it should not be taken literally as when metaphors, allegories, figures of speech, etc., are being used. God's laws, for example, should be understood, taken, and obeyed, literally.

What the Jews were wrong about was not in believing Jesus would set up a physical kingdom on earth, but in thinking He was going to do it right then. When Jesus said His kingdom was not of this earth, He was right, the earth at this time is being ruled by Satan. The Bible tells us, though, that this will not always be the case. This is why Jesus is coming again, to take back the earth and set up His reign here on earth.
---Laurie on 1/23/09


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naulon,
you are correct. Scripture bears witness to scripture.
And there are many OT prophecy that have been fufilled in the NT.
BUT not all have been fulfilled. Some are still ripening or yet to be fulfilled.

I believe in the literal and spiritual signs of the antichrist coming.

And, Revelations says there will be a NEW Heaven and a NEW earth. The one we see and live in now is going to be destroyed by fire and brimstone.
The old is passing away and being replaced by the new.
But the old is not finished passing away yet.
---miche3754 on 1/23/09


Naulon,

I agree the Bible contains spiritual realities in the form of shadows, types, metaphors, allegories, symbols, figures of speech, etc. It also contains physical realities. The problem is we don't all agree which are which.

Mormons, for example, believe God the Father has a physical body, based on verses that speak of His arms, eyes, hands, etc. This is too literal, and disregards verses that say God is a Spirit, invisible, and has no form.

Some don't like the idea of hell, so they "spiritualize" it and end up with a false and dangerous idea about eternal punishment. Because they can't accept the idea that a loving God would condemn people to hell, they deny the reality of it.
---Laurie on 1/23/09


Laurie, there is many examples of what God does that we don't understand. Scripture declares, When terrible things fall upon man it is the Lord that has done it many times, "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?" Amos 3:6. And in Lamentations we read, "Though He brings grief, He will show compassion, so great is His unfalling love." and he goes on to say in verse 37, "Who is he who speaks and it come to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the most High that both calamities and good thing come? Why should any living man complain when punished for his sins?
---MarkV. on 1/23/09


Laurie~ I loved how you said on one of your posts.."I am comfortable to say that I don't know." It is good you are comfortable with just letting God guide you with the answers in His own perfect time, but that you are still seeking. It is good you don't pretend to know all the answers, and that you humbly admit to that. I agree, there are some things, that only God is His amazing and perfect wisdom can know. We are not called to know all the answers, but rather we are called to trust and obey Him. Keep your lovely humble spirit!
---Anne on 1/23/09


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Laurie,

Things that are about heaven are spiritual. They are not "spliritualized". They are spiritual by nature. I'm not spiritualizing things. You are despiritualizing them. The Jews wanted Jesus to set up a temporal kingdom and he denied it to them. He said his kingdom was not of this earth. That's why the events that bring about the spitiual kingdom are spiritual in nature.

By demanding Christ's kingdom be a temporal one you throw your lot in with the religious leaders who killed him. They chose as you do "a more literal way" to understand the prophesies. We live by faith not by sight.
---Naulon on 1/23/09


Laurie, thanks for your answers. Let me say when I look at Scripture I look at it from God's perspective, never from men's perspective. The whole of Scripture is all about God, what He wants, what He will do, what He has done, and what His plan is. From the Omniscience stand-point, He not only created that plan but already sees the end of that plan all at one time. That things are happening in time for us does not in anyway change what He already knows will be. If things were learned by God through time then He would not be Omniscience. But He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He never changes. Why He made this plan, we don't know, why not another? we don't know. What we know is that it was a righteous plan. Because He is righteous.
---MarkV. on 1/23/09


Laurie, Here is a list of Old Testament shadows of New Testament spiritual realities: (Old/New) Tabernacle (Amos 9:11-12, Ezek. 37:26-27/Heb. 8:1-3, 9:23-24) Priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5-9, Heb. 7:11-12/1 Pet. 2:5-9, Heb 7:11-12) Sacrifices (Heb.10:1-6, 9:9-10/1 Pet. 2:5, Heb. 13:15-16) Temple (2 Sam. 7:4-5, 2 Chron. 22:6-10/2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 2:19-22) Throne (1 Kings 2:12, Ezek. 21:27/Heb. 1:1-3, Acts 7:49-50) Seed (Gen. 12:1-3, John 8:33-39/Gal. 3:16-29, Gen 12:1-3) Israel (Rom. 9:6-8/Gal. 6:16, Rom. 9:6-8) Mountain (Heb. 12:18, Gal. 4:25/Heb.12:22, Rom. 11:26) Jerusalem (Gal 4:25/ Gal.4:26, Heb.12:22) Land (Gen 13:14-15, Mt. 5:5, Heb. 12:22-28, Amos 9:15) Sabbath (Gen 2:3, Exo. 20:8-11/Heb 4:1-11) You still think I'm spiritualizing?
---Naulon on 1/23/09


Mark V,

I agree, God is the One who makes known the end from the beginning, from ancient times until what is still to come. He told us the earth had a beginning, but sin entered the world and brought death to mankind, and just as our bodies will be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, the earth will also undergo a change, a major makeover. Jesus will prepare a place for us, new bodies, new heavens, new earth.

Miche3754,

Echo that amen! All the pollution and damage to the environment will be gone, not because of man's efforts but because of God's.
---Laurie on 1/22/09


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In my opinion that's what causes people to start spiritualizing things, they read something God said or did and because it's not what they would do or what they think God should do, they try to make the scripture mean something else. The important thing is, does your/my understanding line up with scripture.
---Laurie on 1/22/09
AMEN
(OT)Isa. 65:17
For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart
(NT)Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more,
New Heaven and new earth is literal. Scripture with scripture.
---miche3754 on 1/22/09


Naulon,

You think it's unreasonable for God to end the world after only 2,000 years. Some people might think it was unreasonable for God, after less than 2,000 years, to destroy the world (except for Noah & fam.) with a flood. I think God doesn't answer to anyone so He can end it anytime He wants to, I don't presume to judge His actions or decide what I think a God of love would do.

In my opinion that's what causes people to start spiritualizing things, they read something God said or did and because it's not what they would do or what they think God should do, they try to make the scripture mean something else. The important thing is, does your/my understanding line up with scripture.
---Laurie on 1/22/09


Trav,

The Gentiles are not "generalized Israel". Paul took the gospel to "generalized Israel " at the synagogues first, then he took it to the Gentiles. This was his pattern everywhere he went. But the two are different.
---Naulon on 1/22/09


Naulon,

I'm sorry you won't take my word that I wasn't offended, I put quotation marks around that phrase because I was responding to your comment, no other reason.

I did answer your question, maybe not the way you wanted me to. The Bible does not give us the answer to everything we would like to know. It tells us everything we NEED to know, and everything God wants us to know, but it also tells us we look thru a glass darkly so it's not a cop out to say only God can answer a particular question.

I don't think we can understand everything God has done, is doing, or will do. I'm comfortable saying I don't know, the Bible doesn't say. See my next post for the answer to your question.
---Laurie on 1/22/09


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Laurie,

Yes you did take offense at my use of the expression "milk the system" and so did Mark V. You did this to avoid answering the question. And you avoided answering it again by saying, "some questions only God Himself has the answer to."

Why are you so afraid to answer? It's because you know that it is unreasonable for God, after going to all that trouble to set up the kingdom of God, to end the world after only 2000 years. You know that it is reasonable for him to continue to bring as many people into the kingdom as he can. That's what a God of love would do. But such reasoning goes against your eschatological presuppositions. So you refuse to answer.
---Naulon on 1/22/09


Laurie, I love your answers. You have a way of explaining the two concepts, freedom of choice and God's Omniscience. I don't believe Naulon understands the God He has. Here is something God has to say on the matter, "Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels, remember the former things, those of long ago, I am God, and there is no other, I am God, there is none like Me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times what is still to come. I say, My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." He said, "Remember this" and He said "fix it in mind" that He makes known the end from the beginning." He is a God who is not only sovereign, but Omniscience.
---MarkV. on 1/22/09


Laurie,

I'm glad you have a handle on the word "imminent". Question: Does 2000+ years sound "imminent" to you?

The scripture does not teach God has determined who he will or won't save. It teaches that he has determined that all who choose and trust in Christ will be saved. The New Covenant is determined. The choice of mankind to be a part of the New Covenant is not.

God did not say the physical world would end. He said the Old Covenant "world system" (your words) would end.

The Church, or body of Christ refers to the New Covenant parties to which salvation in heaven is promised.
---Naulon on 1/21/09


Naulon,

You said God has not determined who will/won't be saved because He gave us free will. The Bible says that we have a choice, all who believe in Jesus will be saved. It never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him. It does, however, say that just as there was a point in time when we chose Him, there was a point in time when He decided, ahead of time, to choose us.

Somehow, predestination works hand in hand with a person being drawn by God and believing unto salvation.
---Laurie on 1/21/09


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Naulon,

God has a different view of time than we do, the word imminent can be understood as meaning His return can occur at any moment. Predestination is widely debated, although He gave us the ability to choose and expects us to exercise it, He also chose us before the foundation of the world. This tells me He's already determined how many people He will create and whom He will save.

I agree that God desires that none should perish and all saved, but He also told us this world system will come to an end. That's why we are told to watch and pray.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, also known as the body of Christ. The Kingdom of God can refer to salvation, or to heaven, depending on the context.
---Laurie on 1/21/09


Naulon,

I didn't take offense and I wasn't trying to avoid your question, but some questions only God Himself has the answer to. There are many things I wonder about, too, but the information God has given us is all we have at this point.

Anyone can ask, why would God do such and such, we forget we have trouble keeping our own lives in order much less figure out how the universe should be run. It's quite likely we would do things different, a scary thought. The Bible indicates God created an uncountable (for us) number of angels, all at once. He is not continually making angels.

Just as He decided how many angels He wanted to make, it stands to reason He can decide how many human beings He wants to create and save.
---Laurie on 1/21/09


Trav,

The concept of uniting Jews and Gentiles in the New Covenant found everywhere.
Acts 15:17, 20:21, Romans 1:14, 1:16, 2:9, 3:9, 3:29, 3:30, 4:9, 4:11, 9:24, 10:12, 15:27, 1 Corinthians 1:23, 1:24, 7:19, 10:32, 12:13, Galatians 2:7, 3:28, 5:6, 6:15, Ephesians 3:6, Colossians 3:11
---Naulon on 1/21/09

Naulon, you are correct. Gentilized Israel. Aknowledge for one moment, who all the prophets were part of, spoke too and about. Realize that there is no new covenant wording to the effect you promote.
Realize, that GOD does not negate/Lose this people...you do. Realize...you may be this people and not realize it. Or you may chose not to be. GOD will do what he will do. No scripture twisting will change GOD.
---Trav on 1/21/09


Trav,

The concept of uniting Jews and Gentiles in the New Covenant found everywhere.

Acts 15:17, 20:21, Romans 1:14, 1:16, 2:9, 3:9, 3:29, 3:30, 4:9, 4:11, 9:24, 10:12, 15:27, 1 Corinthians 1:23, 1:24, 7:19, 10:32, 12:13, Galatians 2:7, 3:28, 5:6, 6:15, Ephesians 3:6, Colossians 3:11.

The uniting of the Jews and Gentiles in one covenant is is what Paul emphasized, not the two kingdoms of Israel.
---Naulon on 1/21/09


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Laurie,

You took offense at my figure of speech and evaded my question. Why would God make a trillion, trillion stars over 13.7 billion years, form the earth for life, make man, make covenants, take 1500 years to teach the concepts necessary to recognize Christ, have his only son humble himself as a man, be rejected, betrayed, suffer and be crucified, experience separation from the Father, set up the kingdom of God his church and then end it after just 2000 years? Wouldn't he, after going to all that trouble not want as many people in the kingdom of God as he could call? Wouldn't it be reasonable to allow the gospel to be preached for tens or hundreds of thousands of years or even longer? Wouldn't that bring more glory to God?
---Naulon on 1/21/09


Laurie, those were wonderful comments, especially the one you said, "I don't believe Jesus is trying to "milk the system" for all the souls He can get" and your answer was great. Praise be to God that many believe in the power of Christ. If He was trying to milk the system for all its worth, He sure would be making a mess of it for many are lost. It is as you say, He has determined how many souls He will save, and when that number is reached He will end this world system. Your words are golden for the glory of God.
---MarkV. on 1/21/09


Trav,

Good grief Trav, Ephesians 2:14 is talking about uniteing Jews with Gentiles.
----Naulon

You haven't been told gospel"good news". If self taught, you discard that which GOD loved,married,preordained. Not a safe thing to do really. Since you are unaware as Saul....understood by me anyway. Gospel.

13.sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (witness) all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all countries whither thou hast driven them,...
Daniel 9:6-8

14 ..hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, (witness) wall was between the two nations...north house/south house.
the wall between me and them, ..Ezekiel 43:7-9
---Trav on 1/21/09


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