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Who Is Babylon

Who is Babylon referred to in the Book of Revelation?

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 ---sam on 2/7/07
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****Ginger****

Hello Ginger! It has been a while since I have seen you share a post, on CB, and even longer since we have shared together in the Word of the Lord.

This is in response to your prayers, for Wisdom on Life~Flesh or Soul_10/17/08, that you posted in "Is Abortion A Political Issue" Blog.

I would enjoy sharing with you on this issue, with hopes of edifying us both.

Just click on my name to find the last Blog I posted at, and then post your response....and don't fret over the increased sorrow that come with increased knowledge, because through diligently enduring to walk-in the Knowledge of God's Word, all sorrow is turned into Joy.
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/18/08


samuel, youre right.
The Church will have both true and false.
Then we also have to deal with the World condemning us too, because of false Christians.
Again Luke 6:45,"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good, and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

God gave Scripture to us to tell true from false. Especially if we don't have the gift of discernment (1 Cor. 12:8-10).

Back to the subject,
The Babylon of the book of Revelations is Jerusalem.NT(Matt 23:34-37)(Rev 18:20,24)-courtesy of Luke65
Read Hosea, it talks about old Israel and new Israel.
This tells you that Babylon isnt the RCC.
---miche3754 on 11/17/08


While I believe that the tares are inside the church since it speaks of removing tares and fear of digging out the wheat by accident.

There is one Parable that definitly speaks of false Christians in the church. The Wedding with ten virgins. Five were foolish. They thought themselves saved but did not truly posses the HOLY SPIRIT and so were lost.
---Samuel on 11/14/08


manny,
what are false Christians?
Doesn't the Word tell us we cannot serve two masters. Either you serve one or the other, right?
False Christians are in the same boat as unbelievers. Actually, they are worse- you know, luke warm.
So again yes it refers to this.
You are not looking at the whole picture.
It actually is both.
Tares = false Christians planted in the Church by the enemy & unbelievers.
False Christians are the reason there are so many unbelievers.
You know the ones that you could be sitting next to that say they are but aren't?
again, Christ still judges the heart.

luke, thank you and I agree with you too.
We are all at different levels, but we still should edify each other.
---miche3754 on 11/14/08


Miche,

You misunderstand the verses in Matthew. If you just continue in verses37 onwards Jesus explained it:
- Jesus is the sower of the good seed

- the Field is the world (not the church)

- the good seed are the children of the kingdom (the christians)

- the tares are children of the wicked one (the devil's children, unless you believe that a devil's child IS ALSO a christian...)

- the enemy that sowed them is the Devil

So, this parable does not talk about true and false christians within the church.

It talks of what is happening in the world.

In the world (field) Jesus sowed good seeds (christians) but the devil also sowed in the field (world) tares (devil's children).
---manny on 11/13/08




manny: "I'm only concerned with the use of "true christians."

Manny, Miche had a good answer. I'll add, "true Christians" doesn't mean they have a perfect understanding of Christ, it means the wheat - the elect.

Remember when the disciples (John, at least) complained to Jesus that a man was driving out demons in His Name even though he was "not one of us" (Luke 9:49)? Jesus said he was, simply because he had faith in Jesus Christ, and that is the first and biggest step towards salvation.

Although I would agree that we shouldn't speak of individuals as true Christians or not - that's what, "Judge not" is about - as Miche pointed out.
---Luke65 on 11/13/08


ddm,
No, but look at the World right now.

Israel is a nation that has all the kings of the earth enthralled.
Every major nation is arguing over and trying to bring peace to Israel.
Remember, this is a prophecy.
The RCC only had the Kings for a while. And even they were rebelious against it.

also, look at the 10 kings without a kingdom.
They will come from the middle east and they will hate the Harlot.
The middle east territories hate Israel more than any nation in the world. And they fight over Jerusalem even now.
how many times have we seen in history nations fighting over Jerusalem? Hello, the Crusades, and more.
---miche3754 on 11/13/08


Israel has NEVER ruled or Reigned over the Kings of the Earth, NEVER, Rome has though.
The only time that will happen is when Yahshua(Jesus) returns for his 1000 yr. Reign & when God brings the New Jerusalem
(1500mi.x 1500mi.x 1500mi.)to earth

The Jew's may have killed a couple 100 Christians, But, the Romans killed 100's of 1000's of both.
The Pope/Vicar of Yahshua, will receive the same evil spirit that the AC and the Image of the Beast receives

The people who are actually running things in the Vatican know what's up, The Pope is just a figurehead/mouthpiece
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 11/13/08


God's word is the same yesterday, today, and forever. ALL scripture is good for, teaching, encouraging, rebuking, correcting...etc. With God a day is like a thousand years and a tousand years are like a day. Every word of God's WORD is just that, God's Word! He's powerful enough to make sure we get at least that much right...We may not understand or even agree, doesn't make it not true
---Paulie_D on 11/13/08


manny, perhaps you should read Matthew 13:24-30, The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares.
Then read Matthew 13:36-43.
This explains the wheat and the tares.

This is talking about true Christians with false Christians.
This is why Christ judges the heart.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good, and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

---miche3754 on 11/13/08




"...mystery, babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." (Rev.17:5)

In verse18 it was clarified: "and the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

So it is A CITY which reigns over kings (or leaders) of the earth. But remember, this could not be the old city of babylon because the book of Revelation is a prophetic book, hence the prophecies therein was not meant during the time of the apostles.

In this "end days"... What is this great city who "rules" over kings... where all other leaders of the world bow down to this city's "leader" ...?

I leave the answer to you guys...
---manny on 11/13/08


Luke and Miche>> "...there are true christians..."

I beg to disagree.

In any denomination there are GOOD people, but we cannot say they are TRUE christians...

A christian is a follower/disciple of Christ. (Act.11:26)

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom.10:17)

How can I have "true" or "correct" faith (so that i will be a "true christian") if what I will hear (taught me) is not the complete Word of God.

I'm not pinpointing the RCC or any particular denomination.

I'm only concerned with the use of "true christians."

True christians can only be in the true church.
---manny on 11/13/08


miche3754: "And some here want the "whore" to be the RCC so bad. Why, when in every denomination including the RCC, there are true Christians.
Wheat and tares exist in all denominations."

Well said, Miche. One of the reasons most people get her identity wrong, is that they get her title wrong. It's not the "Whore of Babylon", it's "Babylon, MOTHER of Harlots". Jerusalem played the harlot to God long before the RCC existed. And despite the fact that you can put all of these scriptures in front of them, it's still a "mystery" to them - prophecy fulfilled!
---Luke65 on 11/12/08


ddm,
Israel is the woman with the 12 stars giving birth to the true Israelites. The true are the true followers of Christ.

Jerusalem is the whore. see luke's post He gives you scripture and verse.

The RCC did not exist in the OT so how can the RCC be the Whore?
She is talked about in the same context both in the OT and the NT.
So we know from these simple things that the RCC is not the Whore.
---miche3754 on 11/12/08


Jerusalem is referred to as the Woman about to give birth & the 12 stars/144,000 that flee into the mts.
Jerusalem will NOT be destroyed forever or UTTERLY, Like the Great Whore Babylon WILL be, to say OTHERWISE wouldn't be BIBLICAL..

Now whether if it "is" ROME(as I believe) or The Babylon of old, which IS Iraq.
Iraq(old Babylon) of the Bible is hardly a country that would make ALL the merchants of the world mourn for it's "destruction that comes in 1 hour", and I DOUBT if ALL the world would MOURN for the destruction of Israel either, NO IT'S YOU ROME!

You shall ride on the back of the Beast(AC) and your cup will overflow with the BLOOD OF THE SAINT'S once again!
Read Daniel, Ezek & Isaiah
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 11/12/08


I know samuel, you are right, they make a good case, but it just isn't true.
All denomination have done horrible things to others who do not believe as they do.

We all, including myself, go against a specific thing that both Paul and Peter said to the churches. That we should not fight among each other.
Christ will seperate the wheat from the tares when He comes back.
Wheat being true believers, and tares being false.
This is why we are suppose to work out our own salvation.
None of this changes the fact that Jerusalem is the "whore."
---miche3754 on 11/12/08


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thank you luke.
I have been searching the scripture for these.
But, when I read revelations, the Holy Ghost revealed to me who the whore was... Jerusalem.
But, as the word says, try the Spirit, and search for the answer. The Spirit will confirm that which is true.
These Scripture you have given have done that.
And some here want the "whore" to be the RCC so bad. Why, when in every denomination including the RCC, there are true Christians.
Wheat and tares exist in all denominations.
---miche3754 on 11/12/08


DDM: "I'm sorry, But Rome had it's fill w/the blood of the saint's of old, Not Isreal or Jerusalem"

"Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD that has been shed on earth... O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you..." (Matthew 23:34-37)

"Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you... In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of ALL WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED on the earth." (Revelation 18:20,24)
---Luke65 on 11/11/08


StevenG, you say that Jesus is not on earth and will not be until he returns. Have you read the part in Matthew (25 or 26) where Jesus says 'When I was hungry you gave me to eat' etc. These are the words he will say to those who feed the POOR, and other minorities who are marginalized. Those who visit the sick and prisoners etc. They are doing whatever they do (or not doing it) to Jesus.
---frances008 on 11/11/08


Ruben - *Still have not given me a verse that gives me the canonoical list of the books!

Why the necessity?

What was scripture was to a very large part recognized by the early church. Only a few minor books were in dispute in part because they did not have the circulation given to others.
---Lee1538 on 11/11/08


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While we can look at the Roman Catholic church today, it clearly has the organizational structure that will endure going into the Great Tribulation.

While it is true there are Christians in most denominations including the Roman Church, it is debateable to what extent they truly follow the official teachings of their church.

Ask many Catholics if they believe for instance if bread & wine becomes the actual body of Christ, they will tell you that the elements are merely symbolic.

And often they will speak of obeying God's law above that of their church. At least that has been my experience.

And the time will come when the Lord will call those that are His out of the apostate church.Rev. 18:4
---Lee1538 on 11/11/08


again, I figure you will not agree, but I am not here to agree or side with RCC haters either.
Our Savior Jesus was crucified by the Jews- Israel. You guys should really read the OT. Especially the books of the Prophets.
IT is not the RCC, no matter how hard try to Convince me that it is. Before there was Rome, There was a sinnful deceitful Israel. Read about it in the OT.
I really thought you kath would have figured this out since you figured out other things of Israel.
---miche3754 on 11/11/08


I don't like a lot of things about the RCC, but I can say this, they love God, so it is not them. miche3754

There are many today who do love GOD in the RCC. But many of the leaders that were followed in the past were wicked evil men who murdered Protestants and other Christians by the thousands. Martin Luther said the Pope was the Antichrist because of what he did. So they have a good case for it being the RCC.

For someone who has claimed History sure lacks a bunch!, Gospel of Peter, Didache were even argue as scriptual and Hebrews and James were not in the first century.
---Ruben

The Peter Gospel and the Didiache is Second century. But Hebrews and James have many points for being written before 70 A.D.
---Samuel on 11/11/08


How many times did they do this to our wonderful, loving, providing God?
I don't like a lot of things about the RCC, but I can say this, they love God, so it is not them.
---miche3754 on 11/11/08

I'm sorry, But Rome had it's fill w/the blood of the saint's of old, Not Isreal or Jerusalem, sure they killed the prophets and others that God sent to them, But they are far from being the ones that "Had" or "WILL" have there fill w/the blood of TODAY'S saint's(Christians).

It's true Israel's playing the part of a Harlot as prophecied by Ezekiel, HOWEVER, They will be saved, "The Great Whore, Babylon" WON'T be, Utter destruction comes to Babylon, NOT Israel!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 11/11/08


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***everyone, Babylon is Jerusalem.***


Babylon is not Jerusalem and Jerusalem has never been Babylon. Jerusalem was taken into captivity by Babylon because of Her disobedience...however Babylon did not BECOME Jerusalem.

And Miche, the RCC has always HATED Israel and anyone that came against her, murdering anyone and everyone who questioned her authority....THAT IS not anyone who LOVES GOD!! That's someone who loves itself, and had tried to glorify itself. I believe the word is VAINGLORIOUS!!! Self-promoting!

1 : excessive or ostentatious pride especially in one's achievements
2 : vain display or vanity
---kathr4453 on 11/11/08


everyone, Babylon is Jerusalem.

Ask yourself this and then pray then go to the word of God on it-
How many times did Israel play the harlot?
How many times, after God had saved them out of God knows how many bad situations, did they turn away from God?
God had to send Moses to rescue Israel from Egypt.
Then while Moses was gone, they turned from God and worshiped false gods.
How many times did they do this to our wonderful, loving, providing God?
I don't like a lot of things about the RCC, but I can say this, they love God, so it is not them.
---miche3754 on 11/11/08


Lee* Believing that the Roman Church was given authority to determine what was in the canon? - a belief not held by Biblical scholars!

Still have not given me a verse that gives me the canonoical list of the books! And could you please tell us how and when the books are added as one...Thanks

Lee* Unlike the Old Testament canon, the New Testament canon was pretty much settled by the end of the first century, most of the churches recognized what was scripture.

For someone who has claimed History sure lacks a bunch!, Gospel of Peter, Didache were even argue as scriptual and Hebrews and James were not in the first century.
---Ruben on 11/10/08


Ruben - *Tell where in the Bible does it give me the canonical lists of the books?

Still at war with God's word? Believing that the Roman Church was given authority to determine what was in the canon? - a belief not held by Biblical scholars!

Unlike the Old Testament canon, the New Testament canon was pretty much settled by the end of the first century, most of the churches recognized what was scripture.

Sorry, but the Apocryphal was not recognized by the early church - a book that really does not support unique Roman Church doctrines.
---Lee1538 on 11/8/08


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kath~ you may be right...I'm not sure if anyone knows the exact answer...but we can be sure that Babylon has to do with evil.
---Anne on 11/6/08


****The Bible seems to refer to Babylon as a place of great sin, material obcessions, and declining moral values. This could easily be referring to modern day America.***


Anne, this could also refer to all without Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/5/08


Babylon=Iraq,Iran=Persia,Gog/Megog=Moscow/ Russia.Their plan:take Israel for natural resources/kill them/come get us!Read Ezekiel/Daniel..Islamic terrorists.Don't be fooled.Obama/neighbors of Louis Farrakahn(Nation of Islam/Million Man March)10-07-08 said of Obama,"Let the Messiah speak." Rev. Jeremiah Wright(Black Liberation front), Steve Ayers "Weatherman" U.S. bombing terrorist teaches university wished he'd bombed more places in U.S.,Tony Rezco planned Iraqi security guards to train/ monitor our power plants.They insured Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac got Obama's house in their rich neighborhood(Kenwood)well below cost.WAKE UP PEOPLE!It's Sheep being led to slaughter by a charasmatic type person.No one knows his real birth place.
---Dee on 11/5/08


The place that is called Babylon existed in the days of the Apostles.

1Pe 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you, and [so doth] Marcus my son.

False churches are referred to as evil women committing fornication with the world.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

So to me this must be a church. But it is also a false way of thinking. Many feel they follow GOD yet follow the devil.
---Samuel on 11/4/08


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*** But for the record, the Catholic Church teaches that those who "through no fault of their own" don't know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the only Savior of the world, can still be saved - by the Blood of Jesus Christ - if they have tried to follow the law that God has written on their heart, and they repent for their sins.***

Luke, I heard not long ago that the POPE made a decision that unbaptized babies now go to heaven, whereas before the New Pope made that decision, unbaptized babies went to hell or somewhere ??


But with what you are saying ,does the RCC really have that authority on either of these issues? What you are saying is not the Gospel the Bible teaches, but one the RCC teaches?
---kathr4453 on 11/4/08


The Bible seems to refer to Babylon as a place of great sin, material obcessions, and declining moral values. This could easily be referring to modern day America. Plus we have spread a lot of these empty values all over the world...many people worldwide now value these same things, instead of finding our greatest value in the holy word of God.
---Anne on 11/4/08


I apologize kath, I was speaking to frances.
Maybe I should clarify about the unbiased part.
We do know that in the past, some translators have twisted the Bible's words to say what they want it to say. There have even been some speculation that extra has been added to the Bible. Today, with man's kowledge bestowed by God, it is easier to get a copy that has less personal bias than before. I am not saying that this doesn't still happen, but is less likely because more people can read now than in centuries past.
Luke, you are so right, when the people start to cry Peace, Peace!! then comes the end.
---miche3754 on 11/3/08


As a result of Adam's transgression, men are born in sin and by nature are spiritually dead. Therefore, if they are to become God's children and enter Heaven, they must be born anew of the Spirit. Therefore as sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" Romans 5:12.
Because men are born in sin and are by nature spiritually dead, Jesus taught,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew"
---MarkV. on 11/2/08


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***but if they are presented with a false picture of Jesus represented by false Christians, he will understand.***

frances, are you speaking FOR GOD or just your personal opinion.

Blind leaders of the Blind will ALL fall into a ditch.

Ye must be Born Again Frances, and if you are not....well, Why is there the word MUST!!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/1/08


frances008: "Jesus is angry..."

Jesus, after the resurrection, does not get angry, maybe a little disappointed.

"Also, Jesus can come in disguise, and does, as a beggar etc."

Jesus will not return to earth until his appointed time. Meanwhile, he is in heaven preparing a place for his people. It is the angels that are disguised as beggars, not Jesus.
---Steveng on 10/31/08


frances008: "I suggest people get back to the GOSPELS and away from the LETTERS of PAUL. "

God chooses anyone he wants - Jews, Christians, sinners, holy men and women - to do his bidding. God knew that the world needed a bible that would tell the truth about him, Jesus, His plan of salvation, and the prophesies that can be translated into different languages. And, thus, came the KJV (many of the 60 scholars from all over the then world that were chosen were not necessarily from the Church of England or the RCC). You may think that man chose these scholars, but it was God himself. If Paul's letters were chosen, they were chosen by God. If God didn't want it, He wouldn't have allowed it.
---Steveng on 10/31/08


Sorry, I seem to have written an error. Jesus is angry with those who reject him, but if they are presented with a false picture of Jesus represented by false Christians, he will understand. He also rejects false Christs as well as false Christians. Also, Jesus can come in disguise, and does, as a beggar etc. If we reject the needy we are in danger of Hell's fires.
---frances008 on 10/31/08


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I don't say that we go to Heaven or Hell based on our own inate goodness or badness. Jesus will have mercy on whoever He wishes to have mercy. I believe in a Jesus who keeps His word. I read what He said, and He makes it clear the kind of personality He approves of. I suggest people get back to the GOSPELS and away from the LETTERS of PAUL. They have not obeyed the WORD because they have only been interested in whatever proves their own desire which is to be treated as a special case with a special ticket to Heaven.
---frances008 on 10/31/08


kathr4453: "And frances, since you think GOOD people go to heaven too, based on their goodness, and not on the Blood of Jesus Christ"

I've never heard Frances say that. But for the record, the Catholic Church teaches that those who "through no fault of their own" don't know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the only Savior of the world, can still be saved - by the Blood of Jesus Christ - if they have tried to follow the law that God has written on their heart, and they repent for their sins.

God's justice is perfect - it's only those who reject Christ, and reject God, who are "without excuse".
---Luke65 on 10/31/08


Kathr, there are two types of people in the world, described in the Bible as wheat and tares, or sheep and goats. We know that Jesus tells us how He is going to judge the world (by our actions not our words) in Matthew 25 for instance but also Matthew 13. We know that Jesus identifies with the poor, prisoners, crippled and rejects of the world. If you help them you are admitted into Heaven. Where in the world did you get the idea that good people are rejected by God? Original Sin was invented by someone who thought it a brilliant idea. We know that He is not going to be so angry with those who meet and reject Jesus, as He is with those who hear His message and ignore it, making up there own ways of getting to Heaven.
---frances008 on 10/31/08


miche3754: "I think this happening is a sign from God as to what area we need to be looking at."

I think it's an interesting sign too - just not the actual fulfillment. Just like the nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl ("Wormwood") was a sign, but not the actual fulfillment of Revelation 8:10-11.

Signs are all around us. I think it's clear that God is trying to wake up His people!
---Luke65 on 10/31/08


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miche3754:

How can you have an "unbiased" translation from ANY language into another? Hebrew and Aramaic, don't write most vowels. In most cases, one can tell which vowels were meant, but in some cases, there are multiple possible readings.

Similarly, English doesn't write phonetics. "I read it now" and "I read it earlier" are clear, but "I read it" could mean either one.

When a source language has an ambiguity not in the target language, the translator MUST use his own judgment - so we necessarily get a translator's bias. Hopefully such bias is an educated one, so we get something close to what the original author intended. such problems happens with most languages.
---StrongAxe on 10/31/08


So you can't say we don't have direct translation, because now... WE DO.
---miche3754 on 10/31/08


Miche3754, I'm not sure what you are saying here....I've said nothing about translations of scripture.

---kathr4453 on 10/31/08


Lee* I rather doubt you can make the case that the epistles found in our Bible were passed downward as oral tradition.

Tell where in the Bible does it give me the canonical lists of the books?

Lee* As for the Gospels, Luke for one wrote his gospel from interviewing different people that were eye-witnesses to the events in the life of Christ.The other Gospels were compiled and used as teaching texts as more converts came into the church,

Tell me where does it say Mark, Matthew and John wrote the Gospels and where it tells me only 4 gospels will be written? Also show me where Jesus tells any of the Apostles to write everything down and compile it to a book?

---Ruben on 10/31/08


kath, we have had written language for thousands of years.
So, yes the Gospels were written down within a 100 years of Jesus being present with us. Some while he was here.

The problem in the past was that aramaic and hebrew are different than other languages of the world and they have some words that have no vowels. They translated to latin and greek by men, some with their own thoughts on how it should go.

But now we have direct translation from aramaic to english that is non biased and truthful.
So you can't say we don't have direct translation, because now... WE DO.
---miche3754 on 10/31/08


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Taking text out of context is a hobby of many OSAS people.
---frances008 on 10/30/08


Really Fracnes????? I see so much taken out of context of those who don't believe in OSAS.

Luke's verse in Joshua for instance.

Study to show yourselves approved.. RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth.

So our object is to study to show OURSELVES approved unto God....It's God who does the approving. Our object isn't to try and find places we think GOD LIED, as so many make that their object.

And frances, since you think GOOD people go to heaven too, based on their goodness, and not on the Blood of Jesus Christ.....What would you know about keeping scripture in proper context?
---kathr4453 on 10/31/08


luke, I know. But I think this happening is a sign from God as to what area we need to be looking at.

I don't believe it is the RCC. I believe the 7 churches is the key to that. There are parallels in that, too. Not only do they represent real churches from the past, but they represent how churches are today. That is including the RCC.
When revelations says city, I think it is literal.
RCC is part of the Body of Christ. So it is not the city of Babylon.
So yeah, I agree with you, luke. Some don't want to see it though.
---miche3754 on 10/31/08


The people passed on an oral 'tradition'

I rather doubt you can make the case that the epistles found in our Bible were passed downward as oral tradition. They were written to different individuals & churches, copied and distributed to other churches.

As for the Gospels, Luke for one wrote his gospel from interviewing different people that were eye-witnesses to the events in the life of Christ.The other Gospels were compiled and used as teaching texts as more converts came into the church,

Your position is really that of the Roman Church that has to admit much of their peculiar doctrines cannot be defended from what Biblical Christians believe was penned at the direction of God's Holy Spirit.
---Lee1538 on 10/30/08


Luke, this is the marvel of the Bible. The gospels were not written at all to begin with. The people passed on an oral 'tradition'. It was historical accounts as witnessed by thousands and collected in different documents. These documents were disposed of or lost over time. Maybe someone has them somewhere hidden. From these documents and their own sources the four writers whose names we cannot be sure of, wrote their gospels. If it was untrue, you would be able to tell. All four would have either written wildly differing accounts, or they would have stuck to their agreed story. But we have just enough differences to show that details were remembered differently etc.
---frances008 on 10/30/08


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Paul wrote to the early church. His letters are historical documents that prove that Jesus was a real man and a real threat to the Roman authorities. Paul's letters tell us about the early church. Jesus speaks directly to us. Who are you going to listen to, Luke? It seems that you have found another stone to build a church upon. I am pointing you to the true rock, Jesus. My church is the church of God, made of good Holy Spirit-filled people who are generally outsiders when it comes to the established church. Jesus is the one who speaks on behalf of the outcasts of society.
---frances008 on 10/30/08


Any part of the Bible can be misapplied, Luke. I try to apply the words properly. If in doubt I go to Jesus's own words. It is not a slippery slope to discern rightly what the Bible is telling and who it is talking to. The Bible is a Holy Book, but it has been endangered by many people changing the words in translation so that now we have some copies that contradict each other. Whether we like it or not, we have to use Holy Spirit discernment to know what is said. It is plainly wrong to take one or two bits of what even Jesus said and not to listen to EVERYTHING he said. Taking text out of context is a hobby of many OSAS people.
---frances008 on 10/30/08


*Kath, it was when you said the Book of Joshua was in error when he said that God had already fulfilled all His promises to the "house of Israel" - which was true (not His promises to Abraham, and David, and the prophets, which were later fulfilled and continue to be).*

Luke you stated a scripture in Joshua, and said with that that God had fulfilled His Promises to Israel. What was your purpose in stating a promise in written in Joshua?

Are you saying ALL his promises were fulfilled at that time?


You seem to have overlooked Genesis 49..Promises concening the LAST DAYS concerning Israel. Those have not yet been fulfilled. One such is...to Judah...Until Shiloh Comes...is yet to be fulfilled!
---kathr4453 on 10/30/08


kathr4453: "Luke, please tell me where I said the Word of God is in error. I said Herod, a Edomite, (descendants of ESAU...HELLO!!) became proselytes in Israel...but not True Jews..."

Kath, it was when you said the Book of Joshua was in error when he said that God had already fulfilled all His promises to the "house of Israel" - which was true (not His promises to Abraham, and David, and the prophets, which were later fulfilled and continue to be).

As far as Herod goes, you're right about that. His people were converts to Judaism, but Herod seemed to have no fear of God. But it is was Herod who was threatened by Jesus Christ, not Rome.
---Luke65 on 10/30/08


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frances008: "You surely are one who would say 'I follow Paul'."

No, Frances, I believe everything God told us through His Holy Spirit - not just through Paul, but all His prophets. But you seem to forget that the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John - not by Jesus. They were fallible men, so how do you know Jesus actually said what they said He said? You're on a slippery slope, Frances, get back on the Rock of Truth! God gave us His Word, if you believe nothing else believe that.
---Luke65 on 10/30/08


miche3754: "Saddam Hussein started rebuilding Babylon."

Miche, look what happened to him! And as far as I know the only plans are to make it a tourist trap, not a city, but I wouldn't be caught dead there! Anyway, your other guess is the right one.
---Luke65 on 10/30/08


**Kath, the Word of God is not in error, as you suggested earlier. But behold:**

Luke, please tell me where I said the Word of God is in error. I said Herod, a Edomite, (descendants of ESAU...HELLO!!) became proselytes in Israel...but not True Jews, KNEW that no where did an Edomite have any right to be King of Israel.

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. The Herod's sucked up to Rome, and became powerful, through politics, to the Romans!!!

That was Herod's problem, and why he wanted Jesus KILLED. Jesus Christ, as stated in the first Chapter of the Genealogy in Matthew PROVES Jesus through HIS Birthright, and through JUDAH was indeed the KING of Scripture Prophesied.
---kathr4453 on 10/30/08


Luke #2
Cont...Please post

When Herod the Great became sole ruler , he appointed high priests of his own choosing. Roman governors appointed the high priest. It is certain that most of the high priests he appointed came from Sadducee families.

After the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, there was no room for the Sadducees any more. They were too closely linked to the cult in the Temple.

The RCC, Rome in Drag, still has this ungodly link between Esau's offspring,( Esau married into the children of Ishmael ....enemies of Israel, and the Sadducee's....a Political Cult within Rome.
---kathr4453 on 10/30/08


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luke,
I found this information when I was looking up Babylon, historically.
Saddam Hussein started rebuilding Babylon. This is factual and his followers have continued the work even though it is slow in its progress. My point on this is maybe it is a sign? What if it is and Revelations is really true then it symbolizes the 10 kings.

What that passage in Isaiah speaks of is prophecy just like Revelations, and Daniel.

I believe they all go hand in hand and there are many parts that are parallel.

But still it is a topic of great discussion even if we do not always agree.
---miche3754 on 10/30/08


samuel, thank you!
I wasn't talking about denominations. Denominations are man-made.
I was talking about true believers. The ones who follow Christ, truly. They can be any denomination. God looks at the heart not your denomination.
Looking through human eyes, we might see a person who is just a mess. But when God looks at them,God sees His child.

Back to the subject- I still think Babylon will be either Jerusalem itself or the Real Babylon in Iraq. This is because of where the beast will come from-The 10 kingdoms.
---miche3754 on 10/30/08


Say, Samuel, that you accept that after the gospels there was no mistake in any letters. Why in Hebrews 9.26 does it say Jesus did away with sin, then in the next verse we will be judged, and in v 28 where did sin go? Did Jesus take it to Hell? But sin still exists, clearly. St Paul suffered from sinning all his life. Jesus conquered death and sin does not mean that sin disappeared off the map. It still has to be dealt with. For this reason Jesus came. To tell us to repent of sin.
---frances008 on 10/29/08


miche3754: "what if the babylon of revelations is actually Babylon, in Iraq?... So maybe it is literal?"

Here is one reason why it can't be literal:

"Babylon... will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah. SHE WILL NEVER BE INHABITED OR LIVED IN THROUGH ALL GENERATIONS... But desert creatures will lie there, jackals will fill her houses..." (Isaiah 13:19-21)

Like Sodom and Gomorrah, Babylon will never be rebuilt - you can take that to the bank! Even the "Babylonians" realized that and instead built a new city nearby which they didn't dare call Babylon, but Baghdad.
---Luke65 on 10/29/08


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Luke, nobody is perfect, no human being. Paul wrote letters to churches, he was not writing prophetically, to the future church. He gave the message that was needed at the time. Jesus is the one you should put your trust in, not Paul. Paul came from Tarsus, which was a center for Mithraism, and he must have been influenced by that religion. He uses figurative language. He was talking about and to the churches of his day. Jesus spoke about all people, everywhere, and at every time. You surely are one who would say 'I follow Paul'. Well, the church is built on Christ. The Holy Spirit teaches everyone at this very moment in time. If I had to choose between God and Paul I would say Paul was obsolete. The Holy Spirit is correct.
---frances008 on 10/29/08


Samuel, I see where you are coming from. You think the church is a denomination or group of such. Or you think it is found in buildings on Sundays meeting together. The true church members are the poor, homeless, prisoners, victims of crimes, abused, persecuted, neglected, bedridden, honourable people, righteous people. They are members of the Temple which is made of spirits who have accepted the Holy Spirit into their lives. They have often not heard of Paul, Peter or any disciples. Even if you go by the Bible alone, look at what happened to the churches. John in Revelation tells us that they were not pleasing to God. It's time to accept Jesus's message which condemns legalism and hypocrisy and proclaims the new law of Love.
---frances008 on 10/29/08


Kath, the Word of God is not in error, as you suggested earlier. But behold:

"When I found ISRAEL, it was like finding grapes in the desert, when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the FIG TREE." (Hosea 9:10)

"Seeing a FIG TREE by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except LEAVES. Then he said to it, "May you NEVER bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered." (Matthew 21:19)

"Now learn the parable from the FIG TREE: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its LEAVES, you know that summer is near, so, you too... recognize that He is near, right at the door." (Matthew 24:32-33)

"Leaves" - NO FRUIT. Believe God.
---Luke65 on 10/29/08


Frances (and Kath), I don't know if you believe this, but here it is:

St. Paul: "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:11-12)

St. Paul: "By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one OBSOLETE, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."

"He SETS ASIDE the first to establish the second." (Hebrews 8:13,10:9)

It's not "liberal" to say the Old Covenant is "obsolete".
---Luke65 on 10/29/08


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The Law was temporary because Jesus came to fulfil it, and (proving God to be true) bring on a new era in which we had a new perception of the old laws but did not throw them out. Why Jesus came was due to the people abusing the old Laws and consistently falling away into one mistake or another. If they had continued to keep the Law but not abused it, Jesus would not have needed to come. 'Fulfil' does not mean 'abolish', and the examples you use do not show that Jesus came to abolish the Law. Jesus said He kept His Fathers commandments and we should do the same in John 14 or 15.
---frances008 on 10/29/08


By today's liberal church I mean those who through out much of the Bible in exchange for what men falsely call 'science', and who regard the rules of the O.T. and N.T. things that do not apply to us today. I refer to people who rationalize everything, and put human freedom above God's laws. The same liberals who accuse religion and God of being responsible for massacres of innocents, think that women should be able to choose abortion as an option to solve temporary problems that bringing a baby into the world would cause them.
---frances008 on 10/29/08


frances008, do you mind answering a question?

What did you mean by "today's liberal church"?

I believe that All Christians are the church, so I am trying to figure out what you mean by this.

thanks!!
---miche3754

I think you should substitute the word Denominaton for church then it would make more sense.
---Samuel on 10/29/08


Luke, and just as the imposter Herod, who was threatened by the REAL King of the Jews spoke in scripture=Jesus, Herod was threatened by the REAL KING, wanting all those Jews under 2 killed....driving Jesus and His family into Egypt.

Anti-Christ..(symbolic of Herod ) will do the same, when He drives Israel (The rebirth of Israel) into the desert...Revelation 12.
---kathr4453 on 10/29/08


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Luke, the Bible is a book written by humans.frances008

These Men were inspired by GOD.

It has the truth in it, but there are parts that I would not agree with, particularly in the bit between John's gospel and Revelation.frances008

Whether you agree or not. Does not matter. Millions prefer sin to agreement with GOD. That does not change GOD'S word.

Those documents are letters to churches that were meant to be read and applied to those churches, not to us.frances008

Incorrect. The principals apply and often the very words. For those churches are us the church.
---Samuel on 10/29/08


Jesus when he spoke to the Pharisees was not talking to today's liberal church. frances008

True. It would liberals when he is talking to the Sadducees. The Pharisees were obsesed with Traditon making it equal to the Bible. They were hypocrites who used their traditions to disobey GOD.


Not Exactly. It was one church leader correcting another. No person was above being confronted about their mistakes.

Revelation says 'Do not change a single letter of this book' but with the many translations, many words and sentences have been changed completely.
---frances008

Incorrect. The translators words have been updated. The meaning is the same.
---Samuel on 10/29/08


***"Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed, EVERY ONE WAS FULFILLED. (Joshua 21:45)***

Well Luke, would you say that text in Joshua came before the Birth of Jesus? So I would suppose at that time ALL the promises to Israel had not been fulfilled.


The Davidic Covenant is not yet fulfilled. It will be when King Jesus, The RESURRECTED GLORIFIED True King comes and knocks the impostor Herod( symbolic of anti-Christ) off his throne. You know, that one spoken in 2 Thessalonians 3....the one anti-Christ sits in claiming he is King!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/29/08


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