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Theory Of Natural Selection

Doesn't the theory of natural selection have to be true to become a theory? What about the theory of evolution? Doesn't theory mean they are proven? How does that affect Christianity?

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 ---Dave on 3/19/07
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Natural Selection is associated with animals selecting the stronger of the species to reproduce. Evolution shows how animals adapt to meet the needs of their environment. If you watched the Galapagos Special March 18th on National Geographic Channel it was an excellent documentary explaining and illustrating both concepts. If you actually know what you are reading when you study Genesis is will not affect your Christianity. If you were never properly trained in exegesis you likely will have problems.
---notlaw99 on 11/29/07


AlanofUK as MikeM is unable to answer my question, I'll happily answer yours. It's by faith we understand the universe was formed at God's command...Hebrews ch.11-not blind faith as the evidence, the same for evolutionist or creationist, points strongly towards creation as per Genesis. MikeM insists evolution is a foregone conclusion, a scientific fact when in fact belief in evolution- microbe to man-is an extraordinary leap of faith lacking proof & contraindicated by available evidence.
---Warwick on 4/26/07


how can we combine God with others to make good a study?? How indeed. God cannot be combined with any other..He does not need us to help Him. We need Him instead. God is the Creator, and the Creator does not combine with the created to make good a study of creation.
---jana on 4/26/07


TS, good on you for defending biblical creation. But may I respectfully suggest that you check out "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use" from Creation Ministries International?
---Ktisophilos on 4/25/07


Natural selection is a fact. It was discovered by creationists like Edward Blyth 25 years before Darwin wrote "Origin". It has absolutely nothing to do with evolution, because natural selection *removes* information while goo-to-you evolution requires *new* information. See the book "Refuting Evolution" (450,000 copies in print), available from Creation Ministries International.
---Ktisophilos on 4/24/07




IamI- wrote well- science & religion must be combined for proper study. The founders of the scientific method- such as Newton, Pasteur, Boyle, Faraday, Morse, Brahe, Keppler, Christians all. A historian of science,(atheist),wrote they & others investigated the world convinced it was the product of God-therefore could be investigated. Our lives are far better because of their system of operational science.

Microbe to man evolution has no part in this scientific investigation as it's untestable.
---Warwick on 4/16/07


Noway is a theory a proof. A theory is an organized body of ideas as to the truth of something. Sometimes from speculative imagination. Knowledge of a science or art from such study and speculation. On to Natural Selection----A process occurring in nature which results in the survival of the fittest or elimination of individuals or groups, depending on adaptation to environment. True Christianity is no theory, if you have the Lord thy God living in you.
---catherine on 4/16/07


Ok, well theory of natural selection is true, soo true that its been done before, so true that thats why its called a theory...Theory in science is very very very very very very very very close to law, give it another 10 years and it'll become a law, when something is called a law, it means that its been proven true countless of times for a very long time
---mark on 4/16/07


Alan and Warwick

Warwick, that is a fair question to MikeM. Alan, that is a fair question to Warwick. Neither question can be answered without resorting to faith or dogma in the religious context and theory and hypothesis in the scientific context. Observable science is limited to the five (5) senses and some religions ignore REASON as it relates to the five (5) senses. Science has some dogmatic theories (faith). Both science and religion must be combined in order to properly study humankind.
---I_AM_I on 4/16/07


Alan you turned a question I posed to MikeM and I have no reluctance to answer it. It is very easy to answer.

However as a matter of etiquette I will (as previously advised)allow MikeM to answer before answering you. He seems reluctant to do so and I have challenged him a few times. He is all talk.
---Warwick on 4/15/07




Warwick ... I am not MikeM, so don't understand your reluctance to answer me.
---alan_of_UK on 4/15/07


AlanUK: The Moon is said to be a "Billion years old". The Lunar lander had huge skids so as not to sink into the thick dust layer. Probes measure dust to be accumulating at a rate of 0.0003 inches per year on the moon. Being a Billion years old the landng skids were made large so as to not sink into the thousand feet layer of dust.

Armstrong made a 2-inch print in the dust and then hit bedrock. 2-inches divided by 0.0003 inches per year yields 6000 years.
---TS on 4/12/07


Alan of UK- I think I will wait until MikeM answers my question then I will happily answer yours. One will follow the other.
---Warwick on 4/12/07


Warwick ... Leaving opinions & beliefs aside what one piece of evidence can you supply to support your belief that the world is less than 7000 years old - evidence which can withstand the rigorous testing of operational science i.e.observability, testabiliity, repeatability, in the lab?
Straight question-straight answer
---alan_of_UK on 4/11/07


Jared: The THEORY of natural selection is a THEORY. Not been proven true. Science shows quite the opposite. What Religion of Evolution can not explain is placed further back into unobservable time.

The Geologic Column claimed Millions and Millions of years old has Petrified Trees Grown through it!

Now either those trees are "millions" of years old or a flood laid the sediment in layers.

Creation: Devolving from God. Evolution: Becoming like God.
---TS on 4/11/07


MikeM you're a passionate defender of chemical(non life)to life, microbe to man evolution, a belief contrary to the clear meaning of the Bible. As the saying goes- 'there's no evolution in the Bible & no Bible in evolution.'

Leaving opinions & beliefs aside what one piece of evidence can you supply to support your belief- evidence which can withstand the rigorous testing of operational science i.e.observability, testabiliity, repeatability, in the lab? Straight question-straight answer MikeM!
---Warwick on 4/11/07


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The theory of natural selection is very true. If you were to take a polar bear and put it in Africa they would die. that's not that hard to figure out. Evolution may be true and shouldn't affect the church.
---Jared on 4/11/07


Christians believe that how ever God did create he still brings purpose and meaning into life. If he actually started evolution then so be it. I'm not going to tell God he can't. As Christians we need to be more open to science because it is the study of God's creation, IF we would stop fighting it and embrace it we just might be blessed and encouraged.
---Jared on 4/11/07


There is "Micro-evolution" which means small changes that happen within a species. There is "Macro-evolution" where one claims a frog suddenly became a cat. Absolutely no evidence exists for the latter.

I threw a bunch of car parts into a box, added heat (set the box on fire) and waited. It seems that even if I wait a million years those parts will never "evolve" into a car.

Only an Intelligent Designer can put the pieces together.
---TS on 4/11/07


My education is in the hard physical sciences. I have no problem with evolution through Natural selection or the Bible. Its pure cognative dissonance to deny evolution. its a false dictonomy to see science and the Bible as mutually exclusive
---MikeM on 4/5/07


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"science without religion is blind, religion without science is lame." -Albert Einstin

There is evolutionary theory, then there is evolutionary law. palentological evidence is more scant than some scientist wish to accept, micro-biological evidence through is solid evidence of evolution. Evolution is no way refutes faith in the Bible.
---MikeM on 4/5/07


"I hate it when MODs allow 4 questions in the heading..." I wholeheartedly agree NV_Steve. Often, when some folk come at you with a blitzkrieg of questions, they don't want answers but are on a mission to prove themselves right. Before you can answer any of their questions, they hard press you with an endless bombardment of other questions. They don't want answers. They just want to blow (up) your mind with a barrage of garbage. That's the nature of the "old man" (Ro. 6:6, 2 Cor. 5:17)
---Leon on 4/4/07


so what about all those fossils?
---Millie on 4/4/07


Phil the Elder... if you don't believe the Truth of Genesis, how you believe the Truth of salvation thru Jesus? The Word is the Word, Old and New Testaments. You believe it all or none. There is no compromise here.
---betty8468 on 4/4/07


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And the Bible is fact. I know God is not a liar. I also know my Redeemer lives from Genesis to Revelation and now in me and with me. Have a most pleasant afternoon lorra8574.
---catherine on 3/26/07


Short answer: Theories are ideas that have not yet been proven. Once they are proven then they are called facts. Evolution is a theory not a fact, even if it is very interesting and may explain some things.

We can all have theories. Proving them is another ball game.
---lorra8574 on 3/25/07


truth,truth,truth.science has accomplished one thing.well several things.but all point towards one outcome.drawing us away from the dependence we need on GOD.puffing us up as though we are something ,or have accomplished something, and filling us with pride and disobidience.
---tom2 on 3/25/07


Toward the center of the planet?

If you want to be real technical...objects do NOT fall to the center of this planet.

They fall toward the center of gravity which has NOT been precisely located.

The trajectory is goverened by the gravitational pull of ALL-matter minus the effects of anti-matter, nudged a bit by the elements of wind, precipitation, the ambient temperature, how the leaves interact with the air, if the worm wiggles left or right and how many snow-flakes it bumps into.
---NV_Steve on 3/23/07


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If you want to believe a lie, go ahead. The theory of Evolution is the biggest lie that,s ever been told. So ahead. Believe! ---No fear of God, "No regard for man."
---catherine on 3/23/07


Evolution explains the survival of the fittest but not the arrival of the fittest!
---1st_cliff on 3/23/07


5. I hope we dig (like scientists) into our FAITH and become better Christians.

p.s. All puns were intentional :)
---NV_Steve on 3/21/07


4. Hmmm, who was first to ride a donkey, someone with faith that they could ride it or a scientist trying to prove it could be done.

And yes, I know about the 1st, 2nd and 3rd refutations of the theory. I even have a unpublished refutation of my own. See my point. All of it is just hypothetical not theory.
Let them poke around all they want, they'll soon find out it takes FAITH to be a Christian.
---NV_Steve on 3/21/07


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3. An exercise in (the two different-states of) ambiguity ... the real question is "How does that affect Christianity?".

Some of us have more FAITH in science,
AND
Some of us have more FAITH in God.

I say, "Without God there would be no science."
If we turn that around to say, "Without science there is no God." it falls flat on its 'donkey'.
---NV_Steve on 3/21/07


2. I know that's not good analogy. They can't even agree on the spelling of his name OR on the exact meaning of his theory.

Is it, All things being equal, the simplest answer is probably the best one.
Is it, All things being equal, the simplest answer is probably the correct one.
Is it, All things being equal, the best explanation is generally the proper one.
---NV_Steve on 3/21/07


1. I hate it when the MODs allow 4 questions in the heading. It allows for to much squabbling.

Thats true Jack, but nit-picking on those synonyms is just ... splitting hairs.

I hacked it with Ockham's razor and found out that the words are so close in meaning that it only amounts to the difference of which side of the 'two-edge-sword' you use.
---NV_Steve on 3/21/07


hey isn,t it great that God basis for judgement is on the spiritual selection theory.rather than the scientific gravity apples falling thru the sky theory.????/what in thwe world does all this really mean in the kingdom folks.God has made the GREAT THEORY OF choosing jesus ,OR DYING ain,t no theory there ,or apples ,or anything else. either choose jesus or DIE.
---tom2 on 3/21/07


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Good job Jack!!!
---I_AM_I on 3/21/07


"Theory" in a scientific context does NOT mean the same thing as "theory" in an ordinary context. What you are calling a "theory" in the scientific lexicon is called a "hypothesis."
---Jack on 3/21/07


Part 2:

In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.
---Jack on 3/21/07


Part 3:

It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.
---Jack on 3/21/07


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Phil the elder- after 30yrs in scientific pursuits,surrounded by friends/acquaintances in scientific research I'm confident the Genesis creation narrative (not allegory)of gives a much more plausible explanation of origins than does the evolutionary hypothesis. Nonetheless neither can be investigated by the scientific method-ultimately its about faith either way.

You take upon yourself great knowledge of the past saying people were primitive. On what scientific investigation do you base this?
---Warwick on 3/20/07


Phil the Elder- you say no competent theologian takes Genesis as real history. Nonsense! I can give you names of highly regarded theologians who do? Would you disregard them because your starting premise forces you to say that by taking Genesis as history renders them incompetent? Answer please.

BTW who says Genesis is a science text? Thankfully it's historical truth which never changes rather than the constantly changing ideas of science. Answers please Phil.
---Warwick on 3/20/07


I beg your pardon, Sir. Creationism has zero holes. Evolution and all the other theories is in direct contradiction to the creation to Eve. Evolution would reduce Adam to a spiritually transformed ape. Evolution is clearly, strongly, and completely refuted by the Bible. It is the biggest lie, I say the biggest lie, ever been told. You will be held accountable, and everyone else that God does not know on the Great Judgment Day. Just you wait and see.
---catherine on 3/20/07


The major problems is that that Creationism has more wholes in it than Evolution does.

Creationism is based on a totally allegorical account in Genesis Ch 1-3 that should never be taken as fact or science by a competent theologian. They are simply stories of primitive people trying to explain their beginnings and transmit specific religious precepts to their progeny.
---Phil_the_Elder on 3/20/07


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Natural selection occurs but it's the opposite of microbe to man evolution. Certain organisms cannot survive in certain conditions & won't thrive & therfore wont breed, therefore disappear. The gene pool then has less diversity of genetic information. Microbe to man evolution needs totally new information to construct new features. This isn't seen.

Evolution is more a hypothesis than scientific theory-takes more faith to believe evolution than Biblical creation.
---Warwick on 3/20/07


Theories===An organized body of ideas as to the truth of something, usually derived from the study of a number of facts relating to it. But sometimes entirely a result of exercising the speculative imagination. [Conjecture].
---catherine on 3/20/07


dave , actually theory means it is not proven. in so far as the strong survive that doesn,t need proven. atleast as far as the flesh is concerned,unless God gets involved. then you can be the weakest man alive , and be the strongest.scripture tells us that God intentionally uses the weak, and simple things, and people to confound the world
---tom2 on 3/19/07


In science, theories are basically considered true, The theory must have been proven thousands of times by different scientists w/ different tests...the only time it becomes a law or a fact is if its been around for centuries and not one good test has proven it wrong...
I do agree w/ theory of natural selection??
I could really care less about theory of evolution and how people take it as long as they know that God had his hand in it...
---mark on 3/19/07


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Dave ... You are quite wrong in thinking a theory has to be true.
A theory is never known to be true.
Once something become proven, it becomes a fact.
A theory is only a supposition, the unproven ideas of a person or group of people.
Creation in 7 days is only a theory (unless you are convinced the bible is literally accurate in Genesis)
Similarly Evolution is only a theory
Neither is proven
---alan_of_UK on 3/19/07


A theory is something not proven, if it was proven, then it would be a fact.
---Rev_Herb on 3/19/07


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