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Are Nephilim Angels Real

Are the nephilim angels of Genesis 6 real? Many people take these verses literally saying they were fallen angels, but I can't believe God would allow such a thing? What physical proof is there the nephilim angels really existed?

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Angels have free choice make decisions are people
do.
---Sam on 10/12/09


First off I believe there is scriptural evidence stating that the fallen ones are not indeed fallen angels. Further lets agree what Jesus has said and what he hasn't said.Yes women are neither married nor given in marriage but like unto the sons of God. (It does not state angels or man like angels are not able to procreate with women in this age) If this is so someone please indicate the scripture I havent seen it.
---Richard_K on 7/25/08


Angels are not sexual beings either in/out of heaven, they were not created for that purpose. There are many area's of the Bible that can cause confussion if we allow it. This is one. Why would a perfect being want to mate with an unperfect one? The orgianal sons of God, angels, did rebel and sin in heaven, then cast to earth.
---dan on 2/5/08


Well, I know that Zecharia Sitchin is a respected researcher of Sumeria, and Sumeria had the Annunaki.
---Amanda on 2/5/08


After stumbling onto this site this morning it's such a nice reminder of why i choose not to go to church anymore. It makes me cringe to think of what those seeking Christianity would think after reading all your babble. Are you the kind of people they would want to fellowship with and have help save their souls? Enjoy your petty arguments.
---Rick on 2/5/08




TS, MikeM., SLCguy likes to talk about nephilim, too.

"I think you mean the book of Enoch, quotes in Jude. It was considered by many to be inspired, and others did not accept it. It reads like Revelation. OK to read? Who would tell you not to read it??
---MikeM on 12/2/06"
---Observee on 5/3/07


*Shake the dust off your feet & move on from this pit. The tail chasers are going to rave on & on & on. For them it's really not about truth in the matter. I'm outta here! :)*

Leon. I am glad you decided to end this conversation that has nothing to do with our salvation.

Leon as you will notice I ended the conversation. I'm not part of it anymore.
---Ramon on 5/3/07


Just some friendly advice TS: Shake the dust off your feet & move on from this pit. The tail chasers are going to rave on & on & on. For them it's really not about truth in the matter. I'm outta here! :)
---Leon on 5/3/07


A.In Context:
Gen5/6"And Noah (RIGHTEOUS) was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.And it came to pass when MEN began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose."

These text refer to RIGHTEOUS Noahs descendants MEN. No mention of Angels here at all!

Same goes for Genesis 6:4
---TS on 5/3/07


B: Angels as Stars and Sons of God mentioned only in Job38, 300 pages after Genesis.

Job38:7 the morning stars sang together, AND all the sons of God shouted for joy

Job38 makes distinction between Morning Stars,Angels using the word "AND" sons of God.

Job1:6&2:1 Sons of God present themselves before the Lord.These texts dont tell us WHERE this took place.

I present myself to the Lord in morning prayer while Satan walks to an fro over the earth. Same as in Job1&2
---TS on 5/3/07




C: Thus Job38 shows Stars of Heaven AND Sons of God are not the same.

Stars are Angels. Sons of God are righteous context is Noah Gen5/6 & 11 other sons of God references in Old/New Testaments.
PRESUMPION says Job1&2 the Sons of God gathered in Heaven
PRESUMPTION says Stars are the same as Sons of God
PRESUMPTION says Gen5/6 has angels when it does not
PRESUMPTION says Angels procreate.
PRESUMPTION says what God did not
PRESUMPTION is what Eve did in the Garden and it is dangerous
---TS on 5/3/07


Word or Presumption?

Scripture says Angels "dont Marry" demonic or otherwise.

PRESUMPTION, is when God says Angels do not marry then believing that they do.

PRESUMING they procreate when no scripture says Angels Procreate.

Where are the women saying they were taken by angels? Where's the Army of evil giants taking over the planet?

Eve believed Satans lie PRESUMING she would not "surely die" She PRESUMED something that God did not say. Dangerous.
---TS on 5/3/07


The reason why I have given the 32 facts concerning our discussion is that one can know what I believe and what's true and false.

They have been many false accusations flowing around on this blog.

After this post, I will no longer post at this blog, I feel that I have been to long in this blog which has nothing to do with our salvation at all.

If you say that I am a worker of darkness and have sin for believing this then you have to answer to God.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Can an angel sin? Yes. Is their sin in heaven? No. Yet an angel CAN sin. Is their marriage in heaven? No. It says they took human wives. I just look at that as the same as marriage. When you say an angel can't marry outside of heaven. You are agreeing they can choose to commit every sin in the book,yet they can't take a wife on Earth? IN HEAVEN they dont marry.
---Matthew on 5/2/07


Clearly marriage is not allowed in heaven, because we are told angels cannot marry one another in heaven. If their is no sin in heaven and yet angels can sin. How does there is no marriage in heaven prove they can't marry? That scripture does not refute our beliefs.
---Matthew on 5/2/07


28) There is no evidence, stated or implied, that the line of Seth was godly.

29) The view that Genesis 6:1-4 involves angels mating with human females has a strong contextual, grammatical, and historical basis.

30) Peter talked about angels (i.e., spirits) who were disobedient during the time of Noah, but are in prison (1 Pet 3:19)

31) Angels are spiritual beings but they can take on human form.

32) Renown Bible Scholars accept the "angel" view.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


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Facts concerning our discussion

1) This subject has nothing to do with my salvation or yours. Salvation comes from Jesus alone.

2) Believing that Gen 6:1-4 speaks of angels is not based upon traditions.

3) Those who upheld my belief has not committed any sin.

4) Those who upheld my belief still serve God and honor His angels.

5) Hell is not the place one goes if he/she believe what I believe.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


6) My doctrine does not mock God in anyway.

7) No one here have stated that demons are "Sons of God".

8). No one have stated that "Sons of God" aren't righteous. Rather they can choose to sin (Ezek 3:20 etc)

9) No Scripture indicate that Angels cannot Procreate. You have to use circular reasoning to get there.

10) The New Testament clearly teaches some heavenly angels sin (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 6-7) Not Lucifer and demons.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


11)The original Greek of Jude 6-7 clearly teaches the opposite of what you preach

12) Not one Scripture in the OT have "Sons of God" referring to anything but Angels.

13) Angels do not Marry in heaven. The angels came down from heaven in Gen 6:1-4 to do so.

14) Lucifer was righteous, but he fell, proving that "Sons of God" can choose to sin.

15) Demons was "Sons of God" yet they fell.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


16) None of our beliefs are Fundamentals Doctrines of Christianity. So it does not affect our salvation in any way.

17) Those who upheld my belief are not "workers of darkness".

18) Angels become fallen angels once they sin. Gen 6:1-4 describes how the angels in heaven sin.

19) Our doctrine maintains that Angels have free-will (Lucifer fell). Thus, Angels in heaven, though being "Sons of God", can still "choose" to sin.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


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20) The "Seith" view has to many problems.

21) The "Seith" view does not account for the unnatural children born.

22) God had never threaten to destroy the Earth for mixed marriages (Believers and unbelievers) before or after the flood.

23) Failure to accept that "Sons of God" have multiple meanings shows your ignorance.

24) My belief does not call God a hypricate.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


25) Text used in Genesis does not say "Sons of Seth and daughters of Cain". You have to use circular reasoning to get to that point.

26) The concept of separate "lines" itself is suspect and contrary to Scripture. God didn't warn them.

27) Substantial liberties must be taken with the literal text to propose the "Sethite" view. (In data analysis, it is often said that "if you torture the data severely enough it will confess to anything.")
---Ramon on 5/2/07


TS. You have taken this discussion to far. You treat this discussion as if it will determine whether you go to heaven or hell. The angels in Gen 6 are God's angels until they commited the sin. Angels become fallen angels once they sin not before. A righteous person can choose to sin according to Bible. You, TS, commit sins, you not perfect.

I won't go to hell for believing this nor will you. You judge too fast TS. I hope God will have mercy on you.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


mathew: "They will be like the Angels. They are niether married or given in marriage."

Why then do you use the term Marry in your argument below?

The Bible is clear Angels do not marry: Angelic or Demonic.
---TS on 5/2/07


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TS, expounding further using your reasoning this statement should make more sense

"Satan and His demons tryed to overthrow God in heaven."

then this one

"Lucifer and God's angels tryed to overthrow God in heaven"

But it doesn't, the latter makes more sense. Why is that? Because demons can't commit a sin that will bring them to a fallen state because they are ALREADY FALLEN.
---Matthew on 5/2/07


TS. Its clear that you don't read people posts. Lucifer is not a son of God, nor are demons. BUT THERE WERE! According to you, however, they never were. NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT ANGEL CAN'T PROCREATE! Case Closed. I do not follow traditions, I follow the Word of God! You adding to people words TS, for you have accuse me of believing things that I never said I did. Follow your traditions TS. God Bless!
---Ramon on 5/2/07


Ts be very careful. When you start treating this subject as a damnable doctrine you destroy the discussion. This is a matter of interpretation on a subject THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR SALVATION. Why do you treat it differently? Are those who believe Jonah wasn't really swallowed by a fish guilty of the same thing I and Ramon are? No scripture states angels can't procreate and once you understand Genesis 6 is talking about angels you will see that is the scripture that says they can.
---Matthew on 5/2/07


2)


The angels in Gensis 6 were righteouss and they chose to sin. I don't see your reasoning here. Is this statement wrong?

Lucifer deceived God's angels angels in heaven and convinced them to help Him overthrow God. As a result Lucifer and God's angels that followed Him were cast out of heaven.

If there is nothing wrong with this statement then there should be nothing wrong with Genesis 6 talking about angels. Gensis 6 is talking about something that happened in the past.
---Matthew on 5/2/07


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*Now if the text said "Demons saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful..." then you would have something.*

No it would make no sense TS. Because the sin hasn't been comitted yet until the marrying occurs. Therefore the demons were not fallen yet until they married. The passage is NOT talking about after the angels married. Since the angels weren't fallen until the sin was commited then it makes MORE sense the passage is talking about God's angels.
---Matthew on 5/2/07


TS. I will end this conversation now. But you have added to my words many times, saying I believe this when in fact I do not. You accused me of not serving God and honoring his angels. You accused me of committed a sin against God. TS, Are you going to condemn me to hell too?

TS, whatever one believes on this subject does not matter. It will not cast you into hell. I do defend my postion greatly and feel that your belief is false. Believing your belief is not a fundamental doctrine of Christianity
---Ramon on 5/2/07


Ts, the same can be said with your doctrine. No Scripture say angels can't procreate. You have to use circular reasoning to get there. All your agruments can be used against you. It doesn't disprove my belief.

But you can't see this. This subject is not a big issue. I believe Scriptures, thats why your doctrine is false. God Bless TS! This discussion is closed as of now.
---Ramon on 5/2/07


ramon: Hold onto your tradition its sinfullness will find you soon enough.

Satan is not a Son of God. Lucifer was but no longer exists.

No Scripture declares Angels procreate. None. You have to use circular reasoning to get there.

Maintaining "Sons of God" are not righteous whether Angels or Men goes against Scripture.

You teach a False Doctrine.
Your sin will find you out.
God will not be mocked.
---TS on 5/2/07


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Brother Billy,

I am so sad that you have decided to leave CN. You have posted many truths that I agree. And though we disagree on some issues, you still my Brother in Christ.

I am sorry that we weren't able to finished our discussion about the immorality of the soul. I was busy at that time, and then you and I AM I were having a discussion, I didn't want to intrude.

Please Penpal me at ramon3489! I want to still be in touch with you. God Bless Brother!
---Ramon on 5/1/07


#5 Thereby, I did not "assume these (angels) have given themselves to sexual immorality" as you said. That's what the original Greek said, not me! If you wish to ignore this, be my guest. You say you believe Scripture, then why don't you believe this? Yes Scriptures must agree, and my belief agree with Scriptures

Ts, I know you will still disagree with me on this. I believe Scriptures. Thereby, I think we should "agree to disagree". What do you think?
---Ramon on 5/1/07


*No texts say angels procreate*

TS, don't Scripture states angels can't procreate.

*Lucifer no longer Lucifer but rather Satan the fallen Angels would be demons.*

According to your logic, Lucifer was never God's angels (Son of God), nor the other angels who left with him.

*Now if the text said "Demons saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful..." then you would have something*

Again you adding to people words, for I or Matthew did not say it was demons!
---Ramon on 5/1/07


#2 You see if the text said, "sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain" then you had something to go for. But it doesn't say that!

*My beliefs clear from the Word of God.A God who does not change as you suppose.*

No, your beliefs does not come from the Word of God.

*Angels dont marry.Fallen angels arent "Sons of God*

Angels don't marry in heaven. Gen 6:1-4 states that angels came down. No one here saids fallen angels were "Sons of God".

---Ramon on 5/1/07


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#3 *"Sons of God" are righteous whether men or Angels*

And a righteous person still have free-will to choose to sin (Ezek 3:20 etc). Again, Lucifer was righteous yet he fell from Grace Your beliefs have no merit.

*Demons are not Sons of God.Lucifer became Satan.*

Yes. But Demons were Sons of God. According to you, they never were!

*Your theology fails test of Scripture.*"

No it doesn't. Jude 6-7 in the original Greek teach what I preach.
---Ramon on 5/1/07


#4 Both St. Peter and St. Jude taught that they were angels who sin, but were cast into Tarturas, never again to roam the earth (1 Peter 3:19, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6-7). The Bible teaches that Lucifer and his angels are not in prison yet. And Jude 6-7 in the original Greek say their sin (sexual immorality).

Thereby, contrary to Leon, there a "untold" number of angels who sin. If Gen 6:1-4 talks about angels in heaven who sin then it all make sense!
---Ramon on 5/1/07


God bless Ramon

Ive decided not to post any longer on CN, I believe I can use my energy to profit the kingdom in other areas. I'll be finishing up on one other blog till hopefully we reach a conclusion. Ive had a great time discussing the scriptures with you, and also the others I havent menchened. God bless bro.
---Billy on 5/1/07


Ramon: You assume "these (angels) have given themselves to sexual immorality."

No texts say angels procreate and Sons of God dont fornicate. The scripture is past tense just as Lucifer no longer Lucifer but rather Satan the fallen Angels would be demons. Now if the text said "Demons saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful..." then you would have something. But it doesnt say that. Thus your conclusion is from asuming something and using it in circular reasoning.
---TS on 5/1/07


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Roman: My beliefs clear from the Word of God.A God who does not change as you suppose.

Sons of God dont fornicate.
Angels dont marry.
Fallen angels arent "Sons of God"

"Sons of God" are righteous whether men or Angels.

Demons are not Sons of God.
Lucifer became Satan.
Satan is not called Son of God.

Your theology fails test of Scripture. "All Scripture is inpired by God profitable for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness."
---TS on 5/1/07


Leon.#6 In agreement with the original Greek, the translation of Jude 7 should be translated like this: "just as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them, in like manner to these (connecting to verse 6), having given themselves over to fornication and having gone after strange flesh."

The sense of the entire passage (vv.6, 7) is that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them, in like manner to these (the angels), have given themselves to sexual immorality.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


Leon. #7. St. Peter, under the inspiration of of the Holy Spirit, states that some angels other than Lucifer and the angels that left with him, sin and are in Tarturas now(1 Peter 3:19, 2 Peter 2:4). Please keep in mind that "Noah time" is specifically assign in the passages following it.

Jude 6-7 in the original Greek states their sins. This is not the only reasons I believe the angelic view. Most Bible scholars accept this view. Why? The seith view does not account for many things.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


Leon. #8 I do not know what else I can tell you. You obviously disagree with me greatly on this subject. I have study the Scriptures carefully, and their no good reason to conclude that the "Son of God" in Gen 6 were the godly line of Seth, even that it's not correct.

Leon, you made your mind up. You chose to reject what Scriptures states. You have no case Leon. Why don't we call it quits? You will not convince me your beliefs is correct, nor can I convince you. This is getting tiredly.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


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Leon. #4 Is the NEB a bad translation in other Scriptural text (many) compare to what the Greek saids? Yes of course. I don't deny that. But at the same time no translation is 100% accurate. The KJV, though a very good translation, have errors in it.

The NEB is not the only English Translation that have correctly translated Jude 7. I do not use the NEB as a main translation, but you cannot ignore what the Greek saids no matter what the reputation of a translation is. That's your problem.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


Leon. #5. That is why I used different translations in my studies. I use KJV, NIV, NKJV, and others. Some translation show the true meaning of a specific text more than others. If you want to go further, all translations are "inaccurate translations" because they make mistakes in some places.

You can say that the NEB is a inaccurate translation, and I agree, but some translations do a better job in translating from the Greek in some biblical text better than others.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


TS. #5 Your beliefs is based upon your own opinions. That's why you are afraid to answer my questions and refute my facts here one by one. You know you can't do that because the Bible agrees with me. But you chose to continue spreading your false accusations against me.

You say that the OT and NT must agree. And they do. But you say that only when it suites your needs. Sons of God in OT=angels, Sons of God in NT= Those who decide to follow God commandments and believe Jesus.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


* There's your problem Ramon. You're eating out of a garbage can bud! The NEB is so inaccurate it had to be revised in 1989*

Leon, that's doesn't change the fact that it correctly translated Jude 6-7 from the original Greek. All translation have errors and none are perfect!

The original Greek does not agree with you. The NEB is not the only one that correctly translated it from the original Greek. Lose it Leon!
---Ramon on 4/30/07


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*Workers of darkness hate the light. (Jn 1:5; Eph. 5:6-20)*

Leon, Am I'm a worker of darkness? Yes or now. Are those who are workers of darkness go to hell?

Will I go to hell for believing that angels were the ones spoken of in Genesis 6? Yes or no.

I am a true believer in Christ and I do serve God contrary to what TS saids. I have study the Scriptures carefully.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


Ramon: Agreed, Obviously you are no Angel.
---TS on 4/30/07


Leon. #2 There are many problems with the seith view.Procreation by parents of differing religious views do not produce unnatural offspring. God never threaten to destroy the earth for mixed marriages (believers and unbelievers) before or after the flood.

Where did Jude and Peter get the idea that some angels committed a sin and were cast into prison? The Bible states that Lucifer and his angels are not bound, so why do you say I'm wrong when I say other angels sin besides Lucifer and his angels?
---Ramon on 4/30/07


Leon. #3 Verse 7 of Jude begins with the conjunction hos, which means "just as" or even "in the same way as."

Do you have a clear example where the phrase "Sons of God" clearly does not refer to angels in the Old Testament? Yes or no

Saying that the NEB is not a good translation does not change what the Greek actually saids. All translation is not 100% accurate. The NEB is not alone in being a "inaccurate translation".
---Ramon on 4/30/07


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TS: Workers of darkness hate the light. (Jn 1:5; Eph. 5:6-20)
---Leon on 4/30/07


TS#4 It is by the Holy Spirit (Spirit of adoption, Rom 8:15) that we are adopted as the sons of God. Israel was seen as being a corporate son of God (Ex. 4:22,23), but never as sons individually. But we do see clearly that angels are called the sons of God (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7, etc).

Even a Christian can lapse for God's Standard time to time. Your beliefs have no merit TS!. Angels can chose to disobey God. You do greatly err TS. Please don't compare us with angels.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


"...read the NEB [New English Bible] translation..."? There's your problem Ramon. You're eating out of a garbage can bud! The NEB is so inaccurate it had to be revised in 1989 into what is now the Revised English Bible. The NEB is a notoriously unreliable thought-for-thought translation of Bible manuscripts. Lose it!!!
---Leon on 4/30/07


TS.#2 *They refuse to see that by thier doctrine they call Holy Angels perverts*

And you refuse to see that God's Holy Angels can CHOSE to sin and disobey Him!. Lucifer was God's angel, yet he chose to sin. The angels that left with him chose to sin against God.

Using your reasoning, Lucifer and the other angels was never God's angels (Sons of God) to begin with. Is this not the biggest lie their is?
---Ramon on 4/30/07


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TS. #3 * They refuse to see that by thier doctrine they call Holy Angels perverts.*

The angels that sin in Genesis 6:1-4 CHOSE to sin. Just like people today chose to sin against God. Your beliefs have no merit.

*They refuse to see that God Inspired both Old and New Testament and OT/NT must agree.*

And they do. Thats doesn't mean that God can't call his Angels "Sons of God", which is proven in the OT.
---Ramon on 4/30/07


leon: They refuse to see thier own circular reasoning. They refuse to see that by thier doctrine they call Holy Angels perverts. They refuse to see that God Inspired both Old and New Testament and OT/NT must agree.

"Sons of God" do not sin. Period.

Ramon does not serve God nor honor His Holy Angels by such doctrine.

Now Ramon will come back spewing more venom because the truth regarding the lie he teaches is so clear.
---TS on 4/30/07


#2 But you say that Peter and Jude was incorrect in their teachings and your belief is correct. You ignore what the Bible states to fit in your erroneous ideas

Leon, your beliefs have no merit because it is based upon your own opinions, and not the Bible. You have place your beliefs above what the Bible states. You beliefs sound true but they are not because they contradict what the Bible states.

So I ask again. Who should one believe? Leon or the Bible?
---Ramon on 4/29/07


Leon. Because of the punctuation of verse 7, this Scripture appears to say that Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the cities around them, gave themselves over to sexual immorality. However, the underlying Greek text does not support this interpretation.

If you read the NEB translation, you see verse 7 correctly translated.The underlying Greek text indicates that the fallen angels left their own domain and indulged in sexual immorality, going after "strange," or "other" flesh.
---Ramon on 4/29/07


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#2*Then, he talks about the people of Sodom & Gomorrha who went after strange flesh.*

Again, your statements have no merit in the original Greek. The reason is that some translations has mistranslated these passages.

The Greek (and even most English translations) is very clear that similar things are in view in both verse 6 and 7.

And, Jude 6 is not talking about Lucifer and the angels that left with him in rebellion! They are not in prison now! These are other angels that sin.
---Ramon on 4/29/07


*Your erroneous pontifications (great swelling empty words) are devoid of "real facts" & sound biblical doctrine*

Leon, thats the only you say in this blog. You find it easier to just tell those who oppose your beliefs that they are wrong, but can never refute their claims one by one.

Everything I say is found in the Word of God. Both Peter and Jude states that other angels sinned and are now in prison (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 6-7). Jude said they went after strange flesh.
---Ramon on 4/29/07


"Jude states that the [sins] of the angels were going after strange flesh."

NOT SO! Read in context, Jude 1:1-8 gives examples of rebellion against God. He tells of the consequences paid in each circumstance. First, he begins with the evil speaking children of Israel in the wilderness. Next, he tells of Satan's fallen angels who despised God's dominion over them. Then, he talks about the people of Sodom & Gomorrha who went after strange flesh.
---Leon on 4/29/07


Leon. Why can't you answer the questions and refute the facts listed here instead of saying I'm Wrong? I Guess that's too hard.Why do you reject Jude and Peter?
---Ramon on 4/29/07


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The Hebrew word "heylel" is not a proper name that means Lucifer. Check it out for yourself. Read the whole chapter, it is refering to the king of Babylon, not Satan. Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: All this is mediforical language to describe his heart. This could be said of any tyrant that wants to rule the world.
---Billy on 4/29/07


#2. So where did Peter and Jude get this idea that some angels sinned, but were cast into the Abyss with chains? Jude states that the sinned of the angels were going after strange flesh. I have yet to see you answer my questions and refute my facts one by one with good explanations. So I ask you the same question I ask Ts: Are you scare?
---Ramon on 4/29/07


"Your beliefs have no merit." Says who Ravon, you? Pleeeze! Who're you trying to fool? :) Your erroneous pontifications (great swelling empty words) are devoid of "real facts" & sound biblical doctrine.
---Leon on 4/29/07


You are correct Matthew. God called the ultimate rebel "son of the morning". But Leon believes that God will not call a rebel by that name.

Lucifer was God's angel. He was mighty and special amongst the other angels, but he chose to sin. The Bible, both the OT and NT, makes it clear, that other angels besides Lucifer and the other angels, chose to sin. But God send these angels into prison, never again to roam the earth. Quite contrary to the other angels' (Rev 12:9) punishment.
---Ramon on 4/29/07


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Leon. I have given all the reason why the angelic view is correct. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that some angels committed a more sinful act then Lucifer and the other angels committed.

For this, God sent them into the Tarturas (i.e., the Abyss). Lucifer, who is now Satan, is not in prison, well not yet anyways. The angels that left with him are not in prison, yet. They are still awaiting their imprisonment. Peter states that the devil roam the earth.
---Ramon on 4/29/07


"Was" is the operative word. It speaks of things that were (past tense), prior the arch-angel Lucifer's fall, in comparison to what presently is. Lucifer & his followers were loyal/obedient angels to God; but, chose to become disobedient. Disobedience severed their "relationship" to God. "Now", God calls Lucifer the serpent, Satan, the devil, the dragon, etc. Fallen angels are now called demons & unclean spirits.

---Leon on 4/29/07


*What's interesting is they think Holy God would call rebels in the Bible "sons of God*.

Whats even more interesting is that God called the ultimate rebel Satan "son of the morning(beautiful title I might add)" and the "anointed Cherub"

Isaih 14:12
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
---Matthew on 4/29/07


Ezekiel 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Using your reasoning God cannot possibly be talking about someone who was once an angel of God here because God wouldn't call a rebel "son of the morning" or "anointed cherub that was upon the Holy mountain of God"
---Matthew on 4/29/07


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*Even though Lucifer drew 1/3 of the angels from heaven when he fell (Rev. 12:4), these folk would have us to believe there were an untold number of "other angels" who also chose to rebel against God.*

Leon, Lucifer was God's angels, all the others angels who followed him was also God's angel. However, they chose to go against God. They have free-will. What makes you so sure that others can't do the same (i.e., chose to rebel against God)?

Your beliefs have no merit.
---Ramon on 4/28/07


#2 Second the Bible makes it clear that other angels chose to sinned, but were cast unto prison (ie.,not able to roam the earth) (1 Peter 3:19, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6-7)

So who's correct here? Leon or the Bible?

* What's interesting is they think Holy God would call rebels in the Bible "sons of God". *

Gen 6:1-4 talks about how the angels (sons of God) came down and has intercourse with womens. Jude states that they left they "abode" (Jude 6-7).
---Ramon on 4/28/07


#3. Third, your statements have merit in the original Greek. Jude 6-7, in the Greek and some English translations, clearly teaches that some angels sinned (i.e., going after strange flesh). But they cast into Abyss by God, never again to roam the Earth (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6-7).

Do you honesty think these angels that are bound in the Abyss are Lucifer and the angels that left with him? Honesty! If that were true, then Jesus was mistaken when he cast demons out of people!
---Ramon on 4/28/07


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