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What Is Universal Salvation

What is universal salvation? How can someone be saved apart from Christ? Is this meaning of salvation another false doctrine that has crept into the Church?

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 ---Samuel on 4/18/07
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Well now, Mary.
Do you have any idea how many people use Bob when they want to get their digs in?
I gave up trying to defend the name Bob.
Bob is the universal name they choose.
It's really handy, so Bob is used for all kinds of things on the campaign trail mix.
---Bob on 5/5/07


Bob,Chipper, don't you have more important things to answer then to follow frank,lisa? I looked at your name and most of your answers are for him/her. Your answers give prove that you had a purpose to use Bob and it was to attack another brother? He is gone, aren't you happy already? Look at the much work he did, what have you done to help anyone else? Nothing. Period. Zero. Nada. Sip.
---mary on 5/5/07


lisa frank, short time, it's over two years now on the same blogs.
I remember the last time you pouted. Some of the others blubbered for a couple days. Then you popped back as frank. I'm waiting for the new moniker.
---Bob on 5/4/07


B. "I" I also want to encourage you and many others that love the Lord with all of your hearts to continue learning and studying about Christ. Some have been great with great Scriptures to debate, and I thank all of you for your kindness to me while I was on line. My prayers are that you continue to build the kingdom of God with the gospel of Christ, "as workman approve by God"
---frank on 5/1/07


CN, thank you very much for allowing me to answer on this site for the short time I had. The helps you have are really good, and thanks to all the moderators who work so hard on this site. Blessings to everyone.
---frank on 5/1/07




Billy

I am going to miss you on here. You are a BIG voice of reason, and not just faith. Faith without reason is IGNORANCE. Indeed, faith is not an excuse for ignorance, as has been said by others. You reasoned out scripture, whether with me or others. We will indeed stay in touch. God bless brother.
---I_AM_I on 5/1/07


[1] Frank


YOU WROTE: I understand why many of those people are in the mess they are in. War, religion, and just plain power and hate have allowed millions to die of starvation, and neglect. It is no secret that many more millions will die. Cont- Am I on the right page with you "I"?

Indeed, God is not sleeping while this is going on. I do not blame this on God. This is simply man*s inhumanity to man. What is the motive? GREED!!! Religion (especially Christianity) is
---I_AM_I on 5/1/07


[2] Frank

dying off in Europe but spreading like wildfire in Africa and South and Central America. WHY? GREED is a terrible thing. Some people just want to preach the Bible to keep others in control. These people do not even believe or practice what they preach. You know some of them! I too know some of them. I have seen some of them up-close!!! This is all part of the design to keep the desire of GREED growing! The same thing has gone on in the U.S., as American Idol showed.
---I_AM_I on 5/1/07


I am I, I understand why many of those people are in the mess they are in. War, religion, and just plain power and hate have allowed millions to die of starvation, and neglect. It is no secret that many more millions will die. While everyone wants to make the world we live in separated from God when they speak, it is not out of His sight what is happening and when it will end. It is by design as you have said. That a Sovereign God permits or allows it to go on, is a true fact.
---frank on 5/1/07


B. I: I don't know what background you have in your teachings but as I see some of your answers are reform. I know that throughout the Bible the laws of nature, the course of history, the varying fortunes of individuals, are ever attributed to God's providential control. As I see God, I see that all things both in heaven an earth, from the seraphim down to the tiny atom, are ordered by His never-failing providence. I know many here don't want to believe this but as Christians we believe
---frank on 5/1/07




C. I: we believe with God, there is no such thing as fate, chance or luck. The Scriptures very clearly teach that all things outside of God owe not merely their original creation, but their continued existence, with all their properties and powers, to the will of God. He upholds all things by the Word of His power, Hebrews 1:3. He is before all things, and in Him all things consist, Col. 1:17. "Thou art Jehovah, even thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all its hosts,
---frank on 5/1/07


D. I: "the earth and all things that are therein, the seas and all that is in them, and Thou preservest them all" Neh. 9:6. "In Him we live, and move and have our being," Acts 17:28. He is "over all, and through all, and in all" Eph. 4:6. I don't know if you believe this words of Scripture but if you do then you understand what I am saying. "Whatsoever Jehovah Pleased, that hath He does" Ps. 135:6 "So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth;
---frank on 5/1/07


E. I: "But it will accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Is. 55:11. Nothing can be more clear then to listen to God proclaim who He is to all His children. A God of power and might, a God who rules from the throne. But in this times He is not much of anything. Just a Savior but not Lord. Am I on the right page with you "I"?
---frank on 5/1/07


Well, I believe its about time for me to move on to other things. Its been great talking with all. May God bless those that read and Lord give them eyes to see the truth. Frank, or Lisa if thats you, its been fun. CN, thanks for letting me speak whats on my heart, most websites wouldnt give one this much liberty, so thank you. God bless to all.
---Billy on 5/1/07


those that have not heard the gospel will be judged accordingly. God will not condemn a person to hell if that person would have chosen Christ if they heard. But that is not the issue with Universal salvation. Universal Salvation is that everyone can be saved by christ. Universalism means everyone goes to heaven. there is a difference don't mix them up.
---Jared on 4/30/07


[1] Frank

Unlike Billy, I have no idea if you are Lisa. However, I too so saw American Idol Gives Back (on Africa, etc.). My wife and I contributed what we could afford. The entire time I was watching the show I kept telling my wife this is man*s humanity to man. Once you understand the history of the Nile Valley (Africa, including ancient Egypt), you will know that RELIGION and NATURAL RESOURCES are two of the primary reasons why those kids are motherless and fatherless.
---IAM_I on 4/30/07


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[2] Frank

History always repeats itself. The *poverty* in Africa and in the United States are by design, just like AIDS, Cancer, tooth cavities, certain dangerous drugs and medicine, etc. There is a common thread that runs through these and others related to them! God rewards everyone who does research. God bless!
---IAM_I on 4/30/07


Sister Lorra, I hate to disapoint you but not all the world has heard the gospel. Not all the world knows about Christ. I don't know if you saw the children dying in Africa, some didn't have mothers they were father and mother to their younger brothers and sisters. This was on American Idol and money was to help them and poor people here in the states. Those children and many of the adults have known nothing but hurt and pain. It would be wonderful if they heard the gospel but millions haven't.
---frank on 4/30/07


Catherine

Do you believe that you are on your way to heaven? I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Catherine, Im glad to see that someone knows that theyve got there foot in the door, God bless
---Billy on 4/30/07


STOP with all of the nonsense. The facts are Jesus said "I chosed you" And ANY PERSON WHO HAS REALLY BEEN SAVED by the prompting of the Holy Spirit knows what true salvation really is. How sad, How so very sad that so many people will wound up in HELL, believeing they are on their way to heaven. I do rest my CASE.+++
---catherine on 4/29/07


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Frank

I believe Bob is right. You are Lisa! Lisa, why hide behind another name? I dont believe how stupid I am! I wasnt looking for the similarities because I would have never believed that you would do such a thing. I guess Im just a little naive when it comes to people that serve God. Well, maybe im not so surprised at all, but just fell ive been made out to be a horses hind end, LOL. O WELL, thats nothing new either, God bless LISA.
---Billy on 4/29/07


Doug

You misquote scripture. Rom 12:3 says that man should not think of himself more highly than he ought to think, which is the part of the scripture that you have disobey. So yes the woman had faith, but where did her faith come from? She would have no faith if it wasnt given to her from above. Her measure was dealt to her by God. Even Pilate was shown by Jesus that his power to let Christ Go, or be crucified, wasnt his own "John 19:10,11" God bless
---Billy on 4/29/07


(1) Frank

You had said on 4/25/07 on post C, But I will do my best if you put down one passage and please do not read it out of context. Read the whole section, and then ask me and I will answer you back. Then I agreed and said, "if it was OK for me to use 2 Passages", and these were Rom 8:19-23 and Ezk 16:55. So dont worry about the other passages that I have used.
---Billy on 4/29/07


(2) Frank

Your translation of Rom 8:19-23 is incorrect. You said For the earnest expection of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the the sons of God." clearly the creation consist of everything in the physical universe "except Human beings" who he contrast with this term in (vv.22,23). Verse 21 doesnt contrast anything.
---Billy on 4/29/07


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(3) Frank

This isnt talking about the physical universe. The word creation and creature in these verses is the Greek word "ktisis" From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance. This word is only used 19 times in the NT, and never once refers to the physical univers.
Ill give two examples, "Mark 10:6" But from the beginning of the creation "ktisis"
---Billy on 4/29/07


(4) Frank

God made them male and female. "Mar 16:15" And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature "ktisis". Every time ktisis is used it refers to the creation of man, so good try. As far as post D and E, ive already explaned myself on those comments, if you cant see my reasoning behind it, I dont know what else to say. So please read chapter 16 of Ezk and tell me how
---Billy on 4/29/07


(5) Frank

God will restore Sodom and Samaria to there former estates, "verse55" God bless.
---Billy on 4/29/07


"Billy I don't usually answer stuff that anyone can study for themselves. However, this time I will make an exception to the rule."
Catherine, ROFL, roll on floor laughing.... that would be every blog here, we could all study our own questions and forget answering each other. But that wouldn't be as much fun, now, would it. You do make me smile.
---Raine on 4/28/07


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[4] Catherine

reserved for God*s MESSENGERS OF LIGHT, which is less than % of all created beings! God*s messengers of light are wired (predestined) to do God*s will and they have NO CHOICE, as Jesus demonstrated! The rest of the population has FREEDOM OF CHOICE, which we use to complicate our earthly lives! This is the age-old instinct (predestinate) against the capacity to reason (freedom of choice) argument philosophers have been grappling with. My brother Billy and I will get into soon!
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


[5] Catherine

Under the scriptures used to support your position, no one in the remaining 99 and % of the population can ever know if they are *saved.* That is why those scriptures supporting God*s will to save all of humanity make more sense and are not inconsistent with people being CHASTENED or *PUNISHED* by God in the Book of Revelation. To really understand this requires some SERIOUS research, which Billy did and explained on the Punishment blog last year! God bless.
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


[1] Brother Billy,

You are indeed at your best when you are enlightening others that it is God*s will that ALL of humankind will be *saved.* This is CLEARLY in Scripture. You have exposed one of the hypocrisies in how SOME people interpret Jesus* mission. Some people will gladly admit that Jesus died for the *sins* of the ENTIRE WORLD. Some of these same people will then say Jesus did not come to save the ENTIRE WORLD. Amazing! As you know,
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


[2] Brother Billy

I completely agree with you that no one will burn in any hellhole or hellfire forever and ever and ever and ever and ever, etc. Some men and women have wickedness in their heart. God, however, has no such wickedness. Throughout history man has committed wickedness against his fellow man and has justified his conduct in the name of God. These same people use God to justify just about everything they commit and want to commit. Keep enlightening others! God bless.
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


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[1] Catherine

YOU WROTE to Billy: Face it man only a few will find the narrow road that leads to heaven.[Also scripture].

Yes, this interpretation is in Scripture. However, it contradicts the point that Jesus came to save the ENTIRE WORLD, which is also in Scripture. Also, there are many scriptures showing that it is God*s will to save the entire world, including those who are *lost.*
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


[2] Catherine

YOU WROTE: It is sad I admit, but only Jesus chooses and saves And anyone who has ever been chosen and saved knows this.

Scripture tells us that God knew several people (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, Jacob, Esau, etc.) before they were born. Scripture also tells us that those who God FOREKNEW God PREDESTINED, called, justified and glorified. These people had NO CHOICE, when you analyze it philosophically! These people were CHOSEN, as you pointed out. Who are God*s chosen people?
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


[3] Catherine

This has been the problem in history. Some people say the Hebrews/Israelites, who are black, white and yellow (Asian). Some people say Christians, who are also black, white and yellow. Some people say only whites, and others say only blacks. I will not go into this any further for now. However, do you see the DANGER in the chosen people syndrome in this context? Chosen has a more restricted application than what many people have been misled to believe! This kind of chosen is
---I_AM_I on 4/28/07


Frank, Jesus came to save us all, but that does not mean that we all want to be saved by Him. The early Church was given a mandate by Christ to go out and spread the Good News throughout the whole of the earth.

The message of Christianity has now been spread through the whole of the earth and many people have the opportunity to ponder its mysteries and to become Christians if they choose. God does not deny them, although some of their countries try to.
---lorra8574 on 4/28/07


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Billy I don't usually answer stuff that anyone can study for themselves. However, this time I will make an exception to the rule. That scripture you referred to, simply means that Jesus died for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Face it man only a few will find the narrow road that leads to heaven.[Also scripture]. It is sad I admit, but only Jesus chooses and saves And anyone who has ever been chosen and saved knows this. No contradictions you only have to study. Have a good day.+
---catherine on 4/28/07


Yes, Frank. If we get happy about seeing one of our enemies being punished by God, God may get angry at you or me and stop punishing them. Amazing isn't it. We should everyone take God more seriously. He has a great sinse of humor He also expects us to obey Him and be holy, less you won't see the Lord. Have a great day.
---catherine on 4/28/07


Sister Catherine, thank you for posting, I really liked the last one. "not to glory in the wicked man's calamity because we ourselves have barely escaped from Hell." Very well said. I could not agree more with that statement. If it was not for the grace of God we too would be going there and not knowing it. Praise and glory to God in the highest for having mercy on us. There is work to be done for Christ, and we need to hurry for some of them may die tomorrow without Christ.
---frank on 4/27/07


[1] Catherine

Hello meLady. If Christ only died for his people, those obligation to receive Christ when he calls them, fall under the same category [his people]. So yes, not all will be saved, at this very moment. Many called [the church world as a whole], but few are chosen [Gods remnant, his elect seed]. Ive already explaned how that God is still saying Jacob ive loved, but Esau ive hated. Not all will be saved at this moment, but when Jesus is all in all, and death is destroyed,
---Billy on 4/27/07


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[2] Catherine

there will be no more wicked, all will be made righteous. So if Jesus only died for His people then why does scripture say that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world? but Christ want even lift a finger to pray for the world? Doesnt make sence unless he is going to save the world at a latter time. God bless
---Billy on 4/27/07


"For I will save my people from their sins." The elect. Now remember, this by no means takes away anyone's obligation to accept and receive Christ when He comes calling. Not everyone is going to be saved. Jesus did not pray for this world. Whom did He pray for? Why, His people, that He knew God was going to give to Him. >>>If you are one of the few God has chosen, we are not to glory in the wicked man's calamity. Because we ourselves have barely escape Hell.
---catherine on 4/27/07


D. Billy: "why would it matter to teach anyone if everyone is going to be saved?" and you answered it mattered. How could it matter? What good would it be if it mattered or not if in the end all will be saved anyway? I don't see your reasoning even in the way you answered. Stop to think this over, first of all, you say everyone is going to be saved, how can the gospel help them? What difference will it be in the end? What about Christ? What good would His death be if everyone is saved?
---frank on 4/27/07


E. Billy: Why even have a bible? What good would the words of God be since all the lost would be saved? What good are the stories? They cannot help the lost to make him better since in the end everyone is better and saved? Everything would be meaninless. Oh Billy, if you were debating about a doctrine that would be great, but you are debating salvation for everyone. Just to far from Scripture. You might find one verse that might seem like it says that, but the whole council of God does not say that.
---frank on 4/27/07


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Brother Billy, Romans 8:20. That passage looks forward to the resurrection of the body (v.23) and the subsequent complete Christlikeness which is the believer eternal glory. Phil. 3:20,21; Col. 3:4; 1 John 3:2. In verse 19 which talks about the creation, "For the earnest expection of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the the sons of God." clearly the creation consist of everything in the physical universe "except Human beings" who he contrast with this term in (vv.22,23).
---frank on 4/27/07


B. Billy: All creation is personified to be, as it were, longing for transformation from the curse and its effects. "The Revealing" Literally means "uncovering" or "an unveiling", when Christ returns, God's children will share His glory. Verse 20 "For the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Clearly this sentence makes clear it creation was not all of mankind,
---frank on 4/27/07


C. Billy: Creation spoken of clearly means all of the physical universe except human beings, since verse 21 states that the creation will be deliver from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. At no place does the passage speak of Universal Salvation.
---frank on 4/27/07


#1 Catherine

So is John 17:9 saying, because Jesus didnt pray for the world, that he has no desire to save them? Not at all. What this is saying is "Rom 9:13" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated, "Mat 22:14" For many are called, but few are chosen, "Rom 9:18" Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. "Rom 9:21" Hath not the potter power over the clay,
---Billy on 4/26/07


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#2 Catherine

of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Does the fact that Jesus didnt pray for the world make Titus 2:11 of no value? Of course not. Or 1John 4:14 that the Father sent the Son to be the saviour of the world? Im sure you would say, well, the whole world must willing confess him as there saviour before Jesus can save the world, and this would be impossible.
---Billy on 4/26/07


#3 Catherine

Well I dont think that God put a stipulation on Jesus saving the world. Either hes the saviour of the world or hes not. The scriptures are plane that every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord "Phi 2:11". But the real kicker is when will this take place? Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: [2] A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
---Billy on 4/26/07


#4 Catherine

Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. There is a set season as to when Jesus will be all in all. At this moment God has got an elect seed that he has chosen to bless and work through and he isnt praying for the world. And it will be through these "his elect" that the rest of creation will obtain mercy. The season for this will be at the end of the ages.
---Billy on 4/26/07


#5 Catherine

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth [the lake of fire], the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness[God will be all in all]. God bless
---Billy on 4/26/07


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Brother Billy, I wanted to respond to one of the passages you gave me first, and it was 1 Cor. 5:10. then you gave me Romans 8, I tried to respond to you on 1 Cor. 5 first to explain the context of that passage first. I cannot answer all the passages you gave at one time, if you wanted a true answer I would do it for each passage at a time. I sent it to the wrong blog somehow, but that is ok. You wrote to me about eight statements all with different passages and each one should be taken one at a time.
---frank on 4/26/07


2. Billy: if you want to debat, please don't accuse me of anything. I don't think I have to your person and I am more then willing to debate any passage but since it takes a lot to write to describe each one, please be patient, most of the Jehovah Witnesses want to take you all over at one time, and confusion comes in. Lets do it with control, and I will do my best to answer you. Give me one at a time. You can say all you want as your opinion just as I will, but one subject or passage at a time.
---frank on 4/26/07


Mt 9:22 But JESUS turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy FAITH hath MADE thee WHOLE. And the woman was made whole from that hour. FAITH OF THE WOMAN MADE HER WHOLE.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the GRACE given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as GOD hath dealt to every MAN the MEASURE OF FAITH. BILLY IT'S by GOD'S GRACE. Through our faith in him.
---doug7835 on 4/26/07


"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." [Titus 2:11].>>>But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me, and I give them eternal life. I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine. [John 17:9].
---catherine on 4/26/07


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1/ Catherine

If Jesus hadnt died for the sins of the world, you wouldnt be saved at this very moment. All being saved doesnt exclude Jesus Christ at all. All will have to go through the same steps to be saved, and that is grace through faith. You should know that there is none righteous, no, not one: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one "Rom 3:10&12.
---Billy on 4/26/07


2/ Catherine

Why would the holy spirit lead Paul to say that there are none that does good, no not one! Well heres your answer, For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all "Rom 11:32". Catherine, we were all unbelievers at one time, and not our faith, but the faith OF Jesus Christ is what changed our hearts. So dont think that he cant do the same for them in due season, Jesus truly is the saviour of the whole world, God bless
---Billy on 4/26/07


If Universal Salvation means everyone is going to be saved, it's a lie. Apart from Christ you cannot be saved. That would be making the cross out to be a joke,if universal salvation was true. Now, if the whole world would except Christ, then follow would be universal peace. The Bible teaches us this. Only doubters and unbelievers won't buy into it. Nontheless it is TRUE.
---catherine on 4/26/07


3/ Eloy

So what is it thats being destroyed in these wicked men? Is it the man himself or the wickedness thats in the man? After the wickedness is destroyed in us, then we will have become as pure gold tried in the fire. Clean as a new born baby. God bless
---Billy on 4/26/07


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Frank

Its Romans chapter 8 and Ezekiel chapter 16. Not 1Cor 5:10. You must have trouble reading my posts, your always misqouting what I say. Please take your time, I try to always read someones post 2 to 3 times to make sure I understand what there saying. If you have this much trouble with what I write, I can understand why you might have trouble seeing this in scripture. God bless
---Billy on 4/26/07


Brother Billy, I am not accusing you of anything. I don't remember me attacking your person. I said that Universal Salvation is not in Scripture. I gave you reasons why I though it was not true. I also thought you said that it was taught from the Catholic Church and so I knew they don't teach that. They might have a few doctrines I don't agree with, but not that one. Also I will touch on Romans 8,and 1 Cor. 5:10. First of all the passages do not teach Universal salvation. That everyone will be saved.
---frank on 4/26/07


1/ Eloy

Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Eloy, have you ever been rebellious? What good thing was in you that caused God to give you grace, and not the prostitute or drunk on the street corner? You dont deserve salvation anymore than me, or the drunk or prostitute.
---Billy on 4/26/07


2/ Eloy

Theres was nothing good in you that cought Gods eye to say, "OOOO theres a good respectable man, I think ill save him". God makes the vessel as HE sees fit to make it. Some to honor, and some fitted for destruction. So lets see what happens after God destroys the vessel.

Ps. 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
---Billy on 4/26/07


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.billy, God made no such promise, he promises heaven for the righteous, but never heaven for all creation, and especially not for the wicked. So you are greatly deceived in believing in what God did Not promise. God is only an enemy and monster to those living in sin, for the Lord says: Vengeance is mine, says YHWH, and I will repay. Did he not destroy every living man and woman and child with all life off of the whole earth in Noah's day, saving Noah and his family only? Please read Hebrews 10:26-31.
---Eloy on 4/25/07


1. frank

God created us for his good pleasure. He made man subject to vanity, not willingly "Rom 8:20". God didnt ask our permission to be made this way. He made man weak and in need of a saviour. This is the reason for our saviour Jesus. Why God didnt just make us perfect is a question that you will have to take up with God. Read my post again, I never said the Catholic Church taught this, but my early church studies are correct,
---Billy on 4/25/07


2. frank

so if you think im wrong, dont just say im wrong, prove me wrong. Ill give you a little run down on there names. (1)Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria, the Alexandrian school of Christian thought (2)Clement of Alexandria (3)Origen, greatest scholar of the early church (4) Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria (5)Didymus (6)Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop (7)Titus, Bishop of Bostra (8)Asterius, Bishop of Amasea
---Billy on 4/25/07


3. frank

(9)Diodore, Bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem. I dont want to bore you so ill stop there. I have about a hundred names I can give you if you wish, and my studies didnt come from some book I read from some author. You said Why would we have to witness to anyone if all will be saved? Why teach anyone anything if it does not matter? First, it matters a whole lot! If our carnal nature is so ungrateful for the opportunity to rule with Christ,
---Billy on 4/25/07


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4. frank
as opposed to being cast into a figurative lake of fire which will destroy death, and will also destroy hades, that is, the grave, then we will not be in that "Blessed and holy first resurrection". We will instead be raised after the thousand years. We will come up from our graves in what is called the "great white throne judgment". And we will at that time be cast into the "lake of fire". But we are plainly told that it is better to endure that fire now,
---Billy on 4/25/07


5. frank
and be judged now, rather than to have the attitude of, well, I'm going to be saved anyway, so I'll just live for the flesh and pay the price later. In your post C. and D. you still falsely accuse me of teaching salvation without being punished for our sins. Before you came to Christ, what kind of sinner were you? Do you think that you deserve to be forgiven for your sins? None of us deserve it, but through his saving grace, God will show mercy on us all.
---Billy on 4/25/07


6. frank

Do you think that because you are a Christian that this exempts you from the judgement of the sins that youve committed? 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Frank, youve asked me to give you a scripture to debate on, which ive already done, and you havent responded to any.
---Billy on 4/25/07


7. frank

So lets try it one more time. Ill give two if thats OK.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
---Billy on 4/25/07


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8. frank

[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Scripture #2. Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return
---Billy on 4/25/07


9. frank

to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Frank, read the whole chapter of "Ezk 16", and tell me when, why, and how God will restore Sodom and Samaria to there former estates if they are suffering the fires of eternal hell fire. And how and why God is going to deliver the creature, or creation, from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. God bless
---Billy on 4/25/07


Doug

I dont think that we should be so hard on Adam and Eve. Maybe if it was you in the garden instead of Adam, we might not be in the mess were in today.

No Doug, it couldnt have happened any other way, you or me would have done the same thing. God bless
---Billy on 4/25/07


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