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Do Catholics Need Wine

I work in a prison setting and recently the issue of real wine coming into a prison facility for use in communion service for catholics was raised. Can juice be used or is it a part of the catholic ritual that cannot be substituted.

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 ---Shelley on 5/11/07
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When I read your question I think there is a deeper question. It has to do with what one believes about Communion. Catholics believe it to be a Sacrament. It is not just a "remembrance" of what Jesus did at the Last Supper. n or is it simply "Fellowshipping with others?" The Catholic Chuch believe it is the real Jesus.
---noel_frey on 4/7/11


If you work in a prison setting, the law is usually going to win on the side of error.
Which means, they probably don't care which is the proper element, wine or grape juice.
I imagine grape juice is all that is acceptable to the prison.
---Trent on 1/8/08


If a person takes communion without partaking of the wine(or substitution therefor) they are in fact remembering a bloodless sacrifice. And since there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood this would seem he totally inadequate for any efficacious effect!
---Mima on 5/17/07


*When a Catholic partakes of communion he does not need to take the wine. He can take the wine or the host or both. Catholics who are alcoholic often just kiss the bottome of the chalice. Catholics who are alergic to the gluten in the host - take only the wine.*

Good point, Grace. I was thinking someone here had already mentioned this.
---augusta on 5/16/07


*augusta: I agree. My comment to Jack was in regards to this in the first place, and his reply back was "not if it was administered by the Apostleship whatever" having nothing to do with diluting, but that they had the power to chance into blood I guess...
---kathr4453 on 5/16/07*

Kathr, just in case you were unaware, the Apostolic churches teach that even though the substance changes, the physical characteristics of the Eucharist remains the same.
---augua9846 on 5/16/07




Emcee ... I wish my freind that yiou did not take all I say as an attack. I was just making a comment, and the Anglican communion does follow from our catholic connection & I was talking from an Anglican viewpoint, because the principle of the original question applies not only to RCs but to Anglicans & others.
Anglicans say that since Christ did command us to do whatever, however we interpret it (transubstantiation or not) we should partake of both elements
That's just to explain, not to argue!!
---alan_of_UK on 5/16/07


Emcee ... # 2 But a point has just occurred to me ... If it is acceptable (and I believe it is usual) for a RC not to partake of the wine, but just to bow to it, what is the situation if, as in the case of the original question, the Cup does not contain real wine?
---alan_of_UK on 5/16/07


Emcee ... # 3
If real wine not allowed into the prison, they would not be able to bow to the Blood (either or symbolic, dependent on you view of transubstation)
Would this invalidate the sacrament?
I can't think that God would say the sacrament was invalid, nor that the water or other wine substitute was inadequate to represent or be the Blood.
---alan_of_UK on 5/16/07


augusta: I agree. My comment to Jack was in regards to this in the first place, and his reply back was "not if it was administered by the Apostleship whatever" having nothing to do with diluting, but that they had the power to chance into blood I guess. My comment back was " If people ARE having reactions, then it doesn't turn into anything..it remains wine.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/07


Alan Of Uk ::I neither interfere or argue process observed by other denominations. you may or may not consider whats right.I speak as a Catholic. The wafer in many parts of the world & even here in Canada is Considered To Contain the BODY BLOOD SOUL & Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ It is only of Late in some cases is wine being offered as the other species as because this is what Jesus did.But To acknowlege that Jesus is Present in the Sacred Blood is Required By a simple bowing of The persons head.
---Emcee on 5/16/07




When a Catholic partakes of communion he does not need to take the wine. He can take the wine or the host or both. Catholics who are alcoholic often just kiss the bottome of the chalice. Catholics who are alergic to the gluten in the host - take only the wine. Therefore there is no real valid reason to bring alcohol into the prison. It's unnecessary.
---grace3869 on 5/15/07


kathr, I've taken communion in an Episcopal church and no more wine is required to be consumed in their service than at a Catholic Mass. And no, a sip of wine amounting to 1/10 of tsp is not enough to interact with a drug.

I'd say more than likely the facility doesn't want a lawsuit is the reason they dilute it and I don't blame them. Not to mention they can't be expected to monitor how much each individual decides to drink anyway.
---augusta on 5/15/07


augusta: please listen and believe what notlaw99 said. Are you saying this person is a liar? How dare you!!!

****I live an a long term health care facility and we had a problem with an Episcopal Priest using wine in his service. When given to residents it causes some drug interactions. Reducing the concentration solved the problem, 1 drop of wine to 20 oz. of water is usually effective.
---notlaw99 on 5/14/07
---kathr4453 on 5/15/07


augusta: please listen and believe what notlaw99 said. Are you saying this person a liar? How dare you!!!

****I live an a long term health care facility and we had a problem with an Episcopal Priest using wine in his service. When given to residents it causes some drug interactions. Reducing the concentration solved the problem, 1 drop of wine to 20 oz. of water is usually effective.
---notlaw99 on 5/14/07
---kathr4453 on 5/15/07


*You see Jack, Alcohol in the Wine DOES cause many health risks....and again proves it does not turn into anything.
---kathr4453 on 5/15/07*

Alcohol in excess can be a health risk. However, for healthy people wine in moderation has been proven to be beneficial. Regardless, the amount of alcohol in a sip of wine is so miniscule it's a non-issue.
---augusta on 5/15/07


You see Jack, Alcohol in the Wine DOES cause many health risks....and again proves it does not turn into anything.
---kathr4453 on 5/15/07


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Robyn: I have seen Holy Communion where water was used,as well.When Jesus was pierced in the side water and blood came forth.*

And this is why the wine is always mingled with water, the water representing the unity of Christ's church. Wine alone or water alone (or any other substitute) has never been acceptable. "Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek" (who came bearing bread and wine). This was prophesied and fulfilled by Christ and how He was recognized as Messiah.
---augusta on 5/15/07


2.

"Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars; She has slaughtered her meat, She has mixed her wine, She has also furnished her table. She has sent out her maidens, She cries out from the highest places of the city, "Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!" As for him who lacks understanding, she says to him, "Come, eat of my bread And drink of the wine I have mixed. Forsake foolishness and live, And go in the way of understanding." (Pr 9:1-6)
---augusta on 5/15/07


3."A foolish woman is clamorous; She is simple, and knows nothing. For she sits at the door of her house, On a seat by the highest places of the city, To call to those who pass by, Who go straight on their way: "Whoever is simple, let him turn in here"; And as for him who lacks understanding, she says to him, "Stolen water is sweet, And bread eaten in secret is pleasant." But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of hell." (Pr 9:13-18)
---augusta on 5/15/07


Emcee ... The denomination of which I amd my friend are members have the practice that communicants consume both elements, so just bowing would not be a full communion.
She does however take non-alcoholic wine
---alan_of_UK on 5/14/07


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Jack ... the situation put in the original question was that real wine was forbidden to be used. How then can a valid communion be taken without using a substitute?
I'm afraid with this I have to be with the heretic!!
Emcee, God does not always provide wine. There are many parts of the world where grapes cannot grow. In the absence of trade (say during a war) wine may not be available. Does that make a communion invalid?
---alan_of_UK on 5/14/07


**The host can start with wine and then be diluted with water to such an extent that it would pass any prohibition of introducing alcohol into the prison facility.**

Following a pre-Christian Jewish custom mentioned in the Talmud and other sources, the wine in the Kaddish cup/Chalice was ALWAYS mixed with some water. It was never straight.
---Jack on 5/14/07


The host can start with wine and then be diluted with water to such an extent that it would pass any prohibition of introducing alcohol into the prison facility.

I live an a long term health care facility and we had a problem with an Episcopal Priest using wine in his service. When given to residents it causes some drug interactions. Reducing the concentration solved the problem, 1 drop of wine to 20 oz. of water is usually effective.
---notlaw99 on 5/14/07


**God would allow you to use water, and the communion whould be just as valid to Him**

Same thing was said by the heretical sect of the Encraitites.
---Jack on 5/14/07


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1 Corinthians 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Seems like at this Lords table some were having toooo much of the wine at communion. Can you get drunk on blood? There is NO scripture that says it turns to blood.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/07


Lorra 8574: You can read these scriptures for yourself, as I did. Be led by the Holy Spirit as you read. Luke 22:19-20 and I Corinthians 10:15-17 and especially, Matthew 26:26-29. It does not say wine or grape juice it says: fruit of the vine. Both wine and grape juice are made from the fruit of the vine(grapes) the process used makes the difference. I prefer grape juice now over wine for health reasons. Your choice. Be blessed.
---Robyn on 5/13/07


I have seen Holy Communion where water was used,as well.When Jesus was pierced in the side water and blood came forth. Therefore some churches have used water and bread. Also, wisdom and common sense should be used at all times. If children and recovering alcoholics are participating these issues need to be taken into consideration. They will not be able to take alcohol, in any form.
---Robyn on 5/13/07


Lorra: Grapes are the fruit of the vine. Noah planted a vineyard, guess what it was? A grape vineyard. It is what it represents. IN REMEMBERENCE OF ME. Jesus drank wine at Passover, but he was making a point. and the point was, he said he would not drink no more of the fruit of the vine until the day he drinks it new in the Kingdom of God. It doesn't matter if it is wine or grape juice. The person must first examine themselves and not drink it unworthily. How many are those prisoners drink it unworthily?
---Rebecca_D on 5/13/07


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Lorra8574: Wine can be dangerous to one's health. It is always better to err on the side of good judgement. Grape juice has never hurt anyone that I know of. Grape juice should be preferred over fermented wine.The wine/juice ,is only a symbol, by the way ,and does not turn into the actual blood of Jesus Christ.
---Robyn on 5/13/07


Alan of Uk ::I am sure you are expresing an opinion but as long as the word says wine there will be grapes.
---Emcee on 5/13/07


Jared ::To be obedient to the word is to be submissive.an A is an A & a B is a B & I hope you (C) see the difference.The word cannot be changed.
---Emcee on 5/13/07


Alan of Uk::The bread contains the Body Blood Soul & Divinity of Our Lord to those who Believe as Our Lord said. Your friend did not Have to take the wine but Bow & ackowlege the Truthfulness in such a situation,if she feared retriggering.
---Emcee on 5/13/07


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I am sure that if wine, or grape juice, or even any form of fruit juice is forbidden or unavailable, God would allow you to use water, and the communion whould be just as valid to Him
---alan_of_UK on 5/13/07


**Who said it had to be wine?**

Jesus.
---Jack on 5/13/07


Catholics do receive both bread and wine in mass and have since Vatican II. prior to that laity only received bread. But if it comes down to the person and their beliefs if a person is a catholic they cannot accept plain juice because they are used to the wine. it has meaning to them. The sad thing is we don't really need any symbol for Christ to be close. you don't need bread or wine, or water but only a believing obedient submissive Heart.
---Jared on 5/13/07


Jack ... I know a woman who, when given a doctored drink and unknowingly drank alcohol, immediately her alcoholism was retriggered.
Any drop of alcohol would do that. So she is given non-alcoholic wine at communion.
---alan_of_UK on 5/13/07


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Jack: Just wanted to understand what you are saying. Please correct me if i'm wrong. Are you saying only those who have the power of turning the wine into literal blood are worthy of true communion, all the rest of us who take communion in rememberance of Jesus death and resurrection are not really taking communion or are worthy of that communion?

I believe Jesus said to do in "Remembrance of me".
---kathr4453 on 5/13/07


Jack: Just wanted to understand what you are saying. Please correct me if Im wrong. Are you saying only those who have the power of turning the wine into literal blood are worthy of true communion, all the rest of us who take communion in remembrance of Jesus death and resurrection are not really taking communion or are worthy of that communion?

I believe Jesus said to do in "Remembrance of me".
---kathr4453 on 5/13/07


I believe that prisons should be very strict on their rules and not allow Alcohol for any reason into the prison.
---Helen_5378 on 5/13/07


Rebecca and Robyn, show me in the scriptures where grape juice is ever used in religious celebrations.
---lorra8574 on 5/13/07


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If any of those prisoners aren't saved, then they have no business taking communion in the first place. If they are saved, then grape juice would be just fine. Who said it had to be wine?
---Rebecca_D on 5/12/07


I am Christian, and not a catholic. But I see nothing wrong with allowing wine in a prison for use in a Christian Communion service. It is not like any inmate could become intoxicated by partaking of a few sips of wine, which is in memory of the Passover of Jesus' blood being sacrificed for us.
---Eloy on 5/13/07


**Could it have been the communion wine that set her off?**

No.

I know of NO case where an alcoholic was ever sent on a binge as a result of the wine of the Eucharist that was consecrated into the Body of Christ.

Now, if your friend goes to a church without Apostolic Succession, that's another issue.
---Jack on 5/12/07


Grape juice is acceptable in the churches of God.It can be used. Wine is not necessary for Communion.
---Robyn on 5/12/07


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Wine is necessary for the Mass. However, if it is not a Mass being celebrated in prison, but communion being brought in, just the bread will be fine. Once the bread and wine are consecrated and thus become the body and blood of Christ, each portion is all of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. We have both bread and wine as symbols but Jesus cannot be separated into bits. He can exist many times over, just as the five loaves and two fish became enough to feed a multitude.
---lorra8574 on 5/12/07


Shelly: I'm confused. Is it the "Alcohol" in the Grape juce that is suppose to turn to blood? I could be wrong, but I was told that Catholics only partook of the body of Christ, and only the Priests partook of the grapejuice as the Blood of Jesus. I asked my Brother in Law who is an ex Catholic and he said that was correct. Have they changed that? If they have, and they believe it actually turns to the Blood of Jesus, I don''t know of any scripture that says the alcohol is what turns to blood.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/07


Shelly #2:I have a good friend who even a thimble full of anything with alcohol will send her on a binge for weeks. Not knowing the background of anyone who could be highly allergic to alcohol is wise for any church/prison ministry not to serve fermented wine at communion. Now that I think of it,I'm wondering if that is why out of no where she would go on binges. Could it have been the communion wine that set her off? Hum! Many crimes are drug and alcohol related. Don't take a chance with fermented wine.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/07


Roman Catholics are not the only ones who use wine.

So do Episcopalians and Lutherans.

So do all the Eastern Churches.

In fact, until a Methodist minister named Welch learned how to pasteurize grape juice, EVERYONE used wine.

Because grape juice, left to its own devices without refrigeration, pasteurization, or preservatives will always turn into wine.
---Jack on 5/12/07


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Shelley, if you really want a useful answer to this question, why don't you ask the RC prison chaplain or diocesan bishop directly?
---Jack on 5/12/07


Wine is used as far as I know in Catholic churches. They may think that their rights are being denied if it is replaced with grape juice. Seeing that they change the contents of the cup into the blood of Jesus anyways, what's the big deal as to what's in the cup in the first place?
---john on 5/12/07


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