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Is Purgatory Paradise

Is the evangelical position of 'Paradise' fundamentaly similar to the catholic position of 'purgatory'? Not so much the particulars of how each works but rather the basic concept that they are both holding places for the soul?

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Purgatory is Roman Catholic doctrine, and it is not found in scripture. Perdition is found in scripture, and it's just another word for Hell or the Lake of Fire. Paradise is the new Jerusalem or Heaven. It is not a holding place for Christians. Why do people who claim to be Catholic try to seperate themselves from the name christian? All christian means is follower of Christ. Who are Catholics following. I'm not a christian or any denomination. I'm a son of the Living God, grafted in and attached to the house of Jacob by the blood of Jesus! Once you enter the kingdom, you'll finally figure out that there is NO denomination in Heaven. Read the bible body of Christ!!!
---Bryan on 2/6/09


miche,it's ok...
Satan's deceives,but...
God puts a slumber on some.
He will REVEAL in His timing.

According as written,
GOD HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT OF SLUMBER,EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE,AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR:UNTO THIS DAY.
Rom 11:8
Is 29:10

The truth then will be plainly seen.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher.

GOD DECLARES HIMSELF TO BE THE "ROCK OF OUR STRENGTH".
Is 17:10

Declared in the song of Moses...
THE ROCK-how faultless are his deeds...
Deut 32
Is 9:6
He declares it,HIS WORD DOES NOT CHANGE.

is there a GOD or...ANY ROCK BESIDE ME!
Is44:8
The Gates of Hell WILL NOT prevail against IT.

Satan knows IT.
God's Peace.
---char on 12/3/08


Mic, what Mische is trying to tell you is absolute Biblical truth. The Bible says it is appointed for man once to die, after that, judgement. There is nothing about a stop between dying and the judgement.
---Sally on 12/2/08


mic,
How have I contridicted myself?
I absolutely do not believe in purgatory and you do.
I believe Christ in us does the perfecting while we are alive and when we die, we go to be with the Father.
You believe that Christ does SOME perfecting while you are alive, but when you die you go to purgatory to be completely perfected.
Jesus never said anything like this.
Jesus came so we could be saved. An IF purgatory existed, Christ coming changed that.
Since we know God's word does not Change, purgatory can't be true. Again, I apologize if I offended, it is just truth.
---miche3754 on 12/2/08


Mische:-You desire to be right but your posts are full of contradictions and hence causes repitituous quibbles in reply a waste of my time.You say he same things I do and then disagree with Innuendos.Go in peace>
---Mic on 12/2/08




mic, its not me that has blind stubborness.
You believe in something that Christ himself DIDNT believe in and didnt teach.
If the RCC upholds Christ teaching so much, why do they uphold this lie?
Or do you just pick and choose that of the Scripture of Jesus that only suits you? Like that Of Peter being the rock and NOT Christ?
Jesus just isn't enough for you is He?
Jesus dying and sacrificing Himself just isn't enough for the RCC.
I know for me Jesus is enough. He should be for you too but you keep thinking that you have to do sacrements and go to purgatory.
Don't you understand that you cant BUY or EARN your way to Heaven?
Christ is the WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE. No man goes to the FATHER but through CHRIST.
---miche3754 on 12/1/08


Mische:-Who am I to contest the word of an Ancient knowlegable lady who desires to be Right in the face of The Holy Spirit,whom Jesus said He would send to guide us till the end of times.If He The H/S canot change your mind the question remains.Is he the H/S or are you or I being Misguided.I stick with Matt16:13-19 in his word, You do as you please.
---Mic on 12/1/08


Mische:-Who am I to contest the word of an Ancient knowlegable lady who desires to be Right in the face of The Holy Spirit,whom Jesus said He would send to guide us till the end of times.If He The H/S canot change your mind the question remains.Is he the H/S or are you or I being Misguided.I stick with Matt16:13-19 in his word, You do as you please.Your wisdom from Ecclast6:1-4 says HOPE IS in the living:so prayers for them is still hope!!But you may continue in your blind stubborness with a hardened heart.
---Mic on 12/1/08


Google, "Do Jews pray for the dead?" and you may be surprised. Maybe even stop passing falsity on what Jews believe. Even the subject of "Purgatory" from a Jewish perspective...
---Nana on 12/1/08


mic,
say what you will about me.
Still, the Bible says dont pray for the dead.
Eccles 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Written before 2 maccabees. The books of maccabees are from the Alexandria period and have to do with that part of the world.
They dont appear in original Tanakh(OT). You must remember, mic, the Jews were Gods people first and have much more accurate accounts of the Living and the dead than the RCC do.
The RCC took the original God's Word and added to it without regard for the actual truth. But you approve of this because you feel it is accrurate when the Tanakh(OT) is much older and more accurate.
---miche3754 on 12/1/08




Here is part 2. What a great idea no other pontiff had thought about. Here was an infinite source of revenue that even his greediest predecessors had not even dreamed of. Infinite because all humans die. The pope, creature of flesh and blood, had power over the regions of the dead. Souls in torment for their misdemeanors could be released by his word, provide their relatives dipped into their pockets. And which of them wouldn't if they had a spark of decency? Praying for the dead was one thing, "paying for them another." People were led to believe that the pope, or those who came to their village and sold the pardons, guaranteed their dead would go to heaven, on the wings of indulgences. Just another false doctrine of many.
---MarkV. on 11/30/08


Read your Bible folks! The word "purgatory" or a description of purgatory isn't even in the Bible.

It is a ploy developed by the Roman church to extract money from the berieved. It was sold as an attempt to pray people into heaven! Ridiculous.....

Jesus said, "no man commeth unto the Father but by me"
---durango on 11/30/08


Mische:-You use me as your illustration-how about taking some one who is holy (like YOU) but yet prone to simple sin, inadvertant sin Who is a christian or even a catholic,who dies with this venial sin.where would he go?Hell or Heaven.If you say Hell- I ask is God merciful- if you say-Heaven then will God change His mind ?break His rule and allow a defiled soul admittance?so why cannot Purgatory be an alternative?all points are covered by this.besides it says so in 2 MacB 12,45.Take my advice dont practice what I preach but reflect You may have cause to use it some day,when some suffering soul needs your Help.Dont deny Him this privelege.
---Mic on 11/30/08


When Francesco de la Rovere took the throne of Rome in 1471, had build the chapel where all popes are now elected but was also was the pope to us purgatory to an advantage. Sixtus was the first pope to also license the brothels of Rome, They brought him in thirty thousand ducats a year. He also gained great wealth from taxes imposed on priests who kept mistresses, which was another source of income from granting privileges to rich men "to enable them to solace certain matrons in the absence of their husbands. It was the area of "Indulgences" that Sixtus showed a touch of genius. He was the first pontiff to decide that they could be applied to the dead. What a great idea since he could forgive sin.
---MarkV. on 11/30/08


mic
We are perfected in our walk with Christ.
Lets take you for instance.
You are a faithful follower, you love Christ with all your heart. I know this from your post.
Brother, God will judge the heart and soul of you. because you follow Christ teachings. LOVE unconditionally is what is expected of us. The love we have shown in this life and faith in Christ as the son of God.
It is because of what you do in this life NOT what you do in after that counts. Once you die, you can't do anymore.
And there is no such thing as a small sin. All sin is equal in the eyes of God.
---miche3754 on 11/29/08


Mische:-2 points to your existing post.1If by christ's coming we are perfected then why does He challenge us to 'Follow HIM and be Perfect as our Heavenly father is perfect'. A truth, Then why is there so much sin grief in the world today ?WE SHOULD BE PERFECT- ARE WE?or is this a elusion?(sugar coating the truth)
2 If Purgatory existed in the past to which you agree what conditions have changed by #1 to prove we are free from sin.B/C this is what sends us there SIN small ones which debar us from entering Heaven By the Scripture"Nothing defiled enters heaven"If we are made to His image we should live up to it, each one of us,by our justification of Him,who came to show us the WAY.Hence Prayer for relief of the FAITHFUL departed.
---Mic on 11/29/08


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***Nowhere in the Bible is "purgatory" ever mentioned. Purgatory is a fabricated place by the Catholics to create more income for the church in the early years.***

Sally this is exactly TRUE. Some Pope LOST property in a gambling debt. He made up purgatory to extract monies from the ignorant(because people were not allowed to read scripture themselves)AND the RCC to keep people in the RCC teach, believe it or not A RCC OSAS doctrine, that even if you don't measure up?? you're sent to pergetory to get finished and purified, as long as you are RCC. Scripture teaches otherwise. It is appointed once for man to die...and then the JUDGEMENT....

Also the Story in Luke, concerning those in Hades had NO second chance whatsoever!
---kathr4453 on 11/29/08


mic, I am not angry with you.
I am trying to understand how you can believe that when Christ came, He left something not finished.

mike explains it beautifully.
Purgatory may have existed BEFORE Christ came. I am not refuting that. I am saying it NO LONGER exists because Jesus came and reconciled us back to God. Because of this there is no purgatory anymore (if it did exist at all).

mic, when I was talking of you agreeing, go back to the blog "can we be perfect" and read the post I posted and you so graciously agreed with. It is connected with this. Chrsit perfects us in our walk with Him NOW. Once we die, it is done. We go on to be with God.
---miche3754 on 11/29/08


Mic,Nicole...cont,

1John1:9, If we confess our sins, HE IS FAITHFUL an JUST to FORGIVE US our sins AND to CLEANSE us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

The RCC and Nicole say we will always have some unconfessed sin. That they say we must pay for.

Not according to God!
If we confess unintentional, secret faults.
God knowing our hearts.
HE WILL FORGIVE US.
---Mike356 on 11/28/08


Mic,Nicole,
When you give a gift to someone freely.
You don't take it back after awhile do you?
You don't require them to pay for some of it do you? (purgatory)

If you do not. Are you greater than God? Is not His Mercy and Grace infinite?

Have you in your past forgiven someone for something they did to you? You know that they didn't mean too, but it hurt you badly.

Are you greater than God Here too?
Do you presume to have superior gifts and greater forgivness than God?

Psalm 19:12 David asks: Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults.

Is God not Faithful do forgive secret faults if we ask? 1John1:9

cont...
---Mike356 on 11/28/08


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Mische:You are angry with me.You say I agreed with you. But make no mention of what it is.We only agree if we declare -so dear what is it I agreed on.Please refresh with facts.I want you to reconsider,If a human being who does Does not Merit Heaven Neither Hell-DIES-WHERE DOES HE GO-You say you speak the truth, but Truth can only be spoken if one has "ALL the facts".DO YOU?You speak of Purgatory as if you have been there,You refuse to accept2Machabees12:45 as it is not in your bible.does that prove,it does not exist,(especially in view of what Martin Luther did) remove them,but yet GOD says it is a good thing to pray for the dead.read diligently before replying.
---Mic on 11/27/08


Sally:You do need to study about Purgatory from a catholics View point not a christians misenterpreted rhetoric, misssing the finer print-and hence at a disadvantage.I am being Kind, as you are a new edition.
---Mic on 11/27/08


Nowhere in the Bible is "purgatory" ever mentioned. Purgatory is a fabricated place by the Catholics to create more income for the church in the early years. The deal was people left behind had to pay the church to do masses for the deceased, and the more masses requested, the more money was brought in. Purgatory, the place where, according to Catholicism, is a place for "purging" the remnants of your sins, thus saying that what Jesus did on the cross was not good enough! It is a lie, and a travesty that the Catholic church has foisted on people. Paradise is a truth because Jesus told the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in Paradise". There is no comparison between the two.
---Sally on 11/27/08


nicole,
you left out a part. Here it is John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Jesus told her to let go because he had not been to see God yet.

*Where do you think Jesus was?*

There is no purgatory because When Jesus said it was finished it meant ALL of his work.
Give scripture to back up your theory of purgatory please. thank you!
---miche3754 on 11/25/08

cont....
---Mike356 on 11/27/08


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There was two holding places according to Jesus, Luke16:19-31. He eliminated one of them after his death, Ephesians4:8-12. That (Abrahams Bosom) was a place of rest, Not torment or purification.

Jesus took the TOTAL punishment for our sins at the crucifiction,
1Peter3:18, Christ has ALSO Suffered ONCE for sins, The Just for the Unjust, that He might bring us to God.......

Titus2:14, Who gave himself for us that HE might redeem us from ALL INIQUITY, and PURIFY unto Himself a people of His own....

Jesus, in the eyes of God, Has Already Purified us.

1John4:10, Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Jesus Totally appeased God of sin!
---Mike356 on 11/27/08


mic
you know what- What I speak is truth.
You conveniently agree with whom you please instead of realizing you constantly contradict yourself.
On the blog can we be perfect, you stated yes and agreed on how I responded. Now, you are disagreeing with it by agreeing that purgatory exists when it doesn't. Why would Jesus make you go thru being forgiven in DEATH? He would not. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I don't believe in OSAS. I believe that we must persevere in this life to show faith in God, and do his will. I believe you have to have faith and the fruit of that faith is works from the heart- LOVE. The reason why Jesus came in the first place.
---miche3754 on 11/27/08


Mische:-Soft cajoling words are not balm for words of Truth rather they camouflage the lie.Purgatory has always been in existance.and that is why we are challenged by Jesus to be Perfect as our Heavenly Father is Perfect This then is the key of admission to Heaven.Not the innane presumptive OSAS theory you put forward in disguise.God died for our sins -Balderdash-God took the form of Man as God to show us the way to Heaven-Follow me he said.Did you not hear Him?Keep my commandments? .do not commit adultery?Love one another?Conquer the evil desires within you take charge of your life your soul and return it in the same condition it was given to you.That then is the walk of a REAL christian.
---Mic on 11/27/08


nicole,
I am trying to get you to understand that Christ came to open the door to heaven that was closed before He came.
Christ dying for us eliminated purgatory(if there ever was one to begin with)
But you seem to feel that Christ dting for you was NOT enough to get you back to God.
Why do you constantly deny this TRUTH?
Instead you choose to say I haven't given scripture, WHEN I HAVE. From the NT.
Anyway, I will continue to pray for you, because I do everyday, that God opens your eyes to the truth. That Christ died for your sins and you do not need to be perfected AFTER you die because Christ in you does the perfecting while you are alive.
Anne, GOD bless you sister and thank you!
---miche3754 on 11/27/08


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Nicole, you have no idea what you are talking about concerning the Bible. In your attempt to discredit Luther which by the way was Catholic, you speak false. Luther translated the Bible in 1534 and his final revision was in 1545. Luther gave Scripture to the Church in what was in the original cannon. He asserted that the sole authority of Scripture (Sola Scriptura) Scripture intepret's Scripture. It was written with the ability of the laity to read the Bible and distinguish between "revealed Truth" and the distorted practice of the "RCC Church" and provide a new German version of the Bible that drew on the original Texts. You know this but yet still argue.
---MarkV. on 11/27/08


To the Moderators and families, I wanted to wish all of you a great Thanksgiven Day and also thank you for all the fine work all of you are doing for the glory of Christ,
Happy Thanksgiven to everyone else also, be safe out there.
---MarkV. on 11/26/08


Miche~ Continue in your patience and endurance for the Lord. Also hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving!
---Anne on 11/26/08


it is not Luther that has a hold on me. It is God, honey. I Love God with all of my heart soul mind body and spirit just as He has commanded. That is fine you go ahead and Go to purgatory. I will go to Heaven and be with God, after I die. Hope to see you there!---miche3754

Then search for the rest of His Words.
Why follow a Man.
Why love his way and not God's way.

You claim you Love God.
But, you are too proud to admit that it isn't logical for you to have 7 books less than Luther.

As I said before, if it was MONEY, you would have figured it out a long time ago.
But, since it isn't money, you won't worry about it.
AFTER ALL IT IS ONLY GOD'S WORDS!
---Nicole on 11/26/08


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The 2 "P"s cannot be compared because PURGATORY does not exist!
PARADISE is generally identifiied as the earh before the fall and subsequently the earth made new after it will have been pugd of all traces of sin.
---Pier5358 on 11/26/08


nicole, I am not mad
you can't use anything that happend before Christ came.maccabees was BEFORE Christ.---miche3754

There you go again changing your standards.
Give scripture to back up your theory of purgatory please.---miche3754 11/25

You didn't say NT Scriptures.
Or is OT isn't Scriptures?
Luke 1:1-37 is out for you?
John 1:1-5 is out Because it was before Christ.

Jesus is God you know? Before Maccabees.
John 8:57-58 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

I don't pick and choose the Scriptures I wish to believe in.
I BELIEVE ALL SCRIPTURES.
---Nicole on 11/26/08


oh, and by the way nicole,
it is not Luther that has a hold on me. It is God, honey. I Love God with all of my heart soul mind body and spirit just as He has commanded.
That is fine you go ahead and Go to purgatory.
I will go to Heaven and be with God, after I die. Hope to see you there!!
God Bless you sis!
---miche3754 on 11/26/08


nicole, I am not mad
you can't use anything that happend before Christ came. He opened the door to heaven for us.
maccabees was BEFORE Christ.
Christ said behold the old things are washed away and ALL things are made NEW!!
Christ giving HIS life fixed it for US.
We don't have purgatory. You, me anyone who dies In Christ will go STRAIGHT to the FATHER.
How much more Does Christ have to do for you do SEE this!
I guess Him suffering like he did wasn't enough. Well God said it was enough. So who am going to believe? You or God? Certainly not you. But yes, I Believe Christ when He said it is Finished and We are FREE.
---miche3754 on 11/26/08


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Miche3754, are you mad? You made a statement ON THIS BLOG! I even gave you the information about YOUR blog. If you don't want any comments, then DON'T BRING IT UP!

2nd, I gave Scripture! The Moderator didn't release it, but I will try again.
I notice you got the Scripture already.
2 Maccebees 38-46. THAT IS SCRIPTURE!
Now you are upset because it is in the OT?
Do you see yourself? This isn't a game.
You asked and it is given. You are mad because it was answered and then you set another standard?
Get real!
Get mad at Luther for getting rid of Your Scripture!
My Church didn't because She cares for me.
She doesn't think I am dumb and I can't read the Bible.
Luther is the one messing with you, not us!
---Nicole on 11/26/08


Give scripture to back up your theory of purgatory---miche3754

I didn't leave anything out. I was telling you how you are mistaking about touching Jesus.

Did't Christ tell them not to touch him after his ressurection because He had yet to see Him The Father?---miche3754 11/20

No theory Sis, Scripture!
2 Maccabees 38-46
Plain and clear even for you!
Look it up online.
Luther took it out of your Bible to keep thinking the WAY HE WANTS YOU TO THINK!
Even he knew you would believe in Purgatory with those Books.
Be logical! You don't have to be RC to have all 73 books of the Bible.
Other Christians have the complete Bible and are not Catholic.
Be nice to yourself! Get a complete Bible. Undo Luther's hold
---Nicole on 11/26/08


Mark :Be rational and reread my post, not what you interpret.To proffer an arguement or rebuttal it must be on the subject .you side track the issue bringing in irrelevant material."be true to yourself".That is if you desire true and concise civil discussion.You break Matt16:13-19 and you prove God wrong .want to try?
---Mic on 11/26/08


Ronald:-You are dealing with a different scenario.The thief was absolved of His sin Purgatory is meant for those who die with venial or small sins.They are heaven bound.I would not jump the gun as you may one day be in need of digesting those thoughts.What you believe or say is irrelevant. It exists as it is a teaching and in the Bible.Just b/c you protest does not erradicate the Truth.
---Mic on 11/26/08


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Only Jesus Christ holds the KEYS to anything....as we see there are many Keys...

No human being has that kind of power or authority.....But God and God ALONE.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/08


nicole,
get off your false doctrine about Peter holding some kind of keys.
He doesn't have any keys and it is not part of the discussion here. If you wish to discuss that, then please go to that specific blog, thanks!
Jesus did say let Go.
I ask for the same you asked of me. I gave it.
Give me scripture from the Bible where it speaks of Purgatory.
Jesus plainly speaks of Paradise, He said it. That He and the good thief were going to be with God in Paradise.
Not purgatory.
---miche3754 on 11/26/08


Mic, you say, "if I am wrong," you are wrong. The only thing connected to the church with Peter is His head which is buried under the floor of St. John Lateran.
That is the only connection the RCC has with Peter. Where the head is, there is the place of burial. Even today, pastoral practice considers the head the most important part of the remains. In the case of decapitation or a mangled death, it is the head that is annointed with sacred chrism. In 1370 Pope Urban V enclosed the heads in silver busts encrusted with precious gems. This gems were stolen by two youn men. They were caught and their hands were chopped off and later burned. If Peter woke up today he would be shocked at what the church has done.
---MarkV. on 11/25/08


Mische:-"Jesus told her to let go"There is no purgatory because Jesus said "it was Finished"Is that a deduction or a fact ?You want scripture but you do not recognise the scripture so how can you prove something you do not recognise.and a Childish Thank you to boot.!!You do need some one to interpret the scriptures as you are putting the Cart before the Horse and this does not work.I hope I am as ambiguous as you are!!Jesus was sent by the Father to do a JOB his completion of this obedience is telling His Father "It is finished "I have conquered sin by being treated like a sinful man-now you may open the gates of heaven as I go to release those good people who are dead.Matt27:52
---Mic on 11/26/08


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nicole,
you left out a part. Here it is John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Jesus told her to let go because he had not been to see God yet.
Where do you think Jesus was?
There is no purgatory because When Jesus said it was finished it meant ALL of his work.
Give scripture to back up your theory of purgatory please. thank you!
---miche3754 on 11/25/08


Mark /Mische:-If I am wrong then the word of GOD is FALSE Matt16:13-19 comes with an admonition"The gates of hell will not prevail"Gods words not man yours mine or its interpretations.Mische God forgives sin only when we ask.The premise that all is forgiven b/c he died on the cross with the words "It is finished "says the job He was sent to do by the Father is completed"Your interpretation is your own b/c Almighty God has prophesied in Gen3:15 The enmity,will continue "His seed and Her seed" till he will be crushed -so you become part of that equation by resisting Matt16:13-19 "MY Church".My teachings My Doctrines .It is not by chance we engage with Jesus but by choice.HIS WAY.
---Mic on 11/25/08


When Jesus was on the cross, and the one thief believed in Christ, Jesus said that today you will be with me in Paradise. He surely didn't use the word purgatory. I hate to pop people's buble, but the truth is, there is not a prugatory. Where in the Holy Bible is that word, "prugatory" even used? Where in the Holy Bible is "prugatory" even talked about in scripture? Where is a description of "prugatory" in the Holy Bible? If "prugatory" is very important to our eternal souls, wouldn't the Holy Bible contain many verses talking about such a place? The only way someone can prove that there is even a "prugatory" is to give a list of verses in a very literal version of the Holy Bible.
---Ronald on 11/25/08


Miche3754, I don't know what you mean by that statement?
But, I totally agree with Mic about Jesus did not go to hell, but to the dead to free those who were not baptized.

Be careful. There you go again applying one person to all.
Like the Key going to Peter only and you extended to all.

Jesus ONLY TOLD Mary Magdalene not to touch Him. Not the Apostles.
Rememeber He ate Fish with the Apostles.
And He told THOMAS to put his fingers and hand to His Hands and Side to believe. John 20:24

Anyway, the translation has been altered in a way.
Scholars believe that Jesus was telling Mary to LET GO of Him.
It seems Mary was holding on to Him for a very LONG time.
(Which I would have as well.)
---Nicole on 11/25/08


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No Mike356, you are wrong and Jesus is correct.
Are you saying you know more about Salvation than Jesus?
You are disagreeing with Jesus not me!
Jesus is the one speaking in Mark 16:16.

Original sin is present on babies.
Jewish boys were not asked if they wanted to be circumised. Girls wasn't circumised. But all were God's people. Only Adults converts had to believe and be circumised.
Same as Baptism.
Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision Col. 2:11-12. In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ".
Acts 16:15,33,18:8-compare 11:14,1Cor 1:16
They baptized the WHOLE HOUSEHOLD, when ONLY ONE Adult was converted. No one asked the wife, children and servants if they believe?
---Nicole on 11/25/08


Mic, I guess Jesus taking it all still wasn't enough maybe you should read this.
Isa 53:4-5
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

Jesus took it ALL away. The key is you have to ask and repent.
can you ask for forgiveness and repent when you are dead? no you can't.
---ginger on 11/25/08


mic youre wrong, When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross---miche3754 on 11/25/08

No you are wrong.
It is finished is only speaking about the Passover. He is the Lamb!
He wasn't passed so WE CAN BE PASSED!
But, Jesus still has to be raised by His Father.

Paul agrees: 1Cor 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is VAIN, you are still in your sins.

Also remember Jesus said: destory this temple and He would raise it in 3 days.
He didn't stop at the destory part.

The Paschel Mystery is the Passion, Dead and Resurrection!
No Separation.
---Nicole on 11/25/08


luke, you said "There is no "forgiveness" in Heaven or Hell, so there must be a third (temporary) state."
Where does it say this? in 2 maccabees Brother this is OT, when we were seperate from God. Christ came to take away this.
This is the same as saying "since Jesus was the first born of Mary, this means she had more children" remember this statement that you refuted by saying "First born does not mean there were other children after"
It does not say there is a purgatory, because there is no need.
Forgiveness happens Here and Now. There is no need when you are dead.
---miche3754 on 11/25/08


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JESUS completed his Sacrifice for us at the Cross. But He is now acting as our High Priest. Predestination in which GOD says some will go to heaven and others will be sent to hell is false.

It is false whether it is bound up in five point Calvanism or in Once saved always saved. Which is point five of the Calvanism Tulip.

We enter into the Prescence of GOD bodily through the blood of JESUS CHRIST. We go to our High Priest for forgivness.
---Samuel on 11/25/08


mic youre wrong,


When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). Hebrews 10:14 declares, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." Hence, those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever, no further "purging" is necessary. 1 John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

cont....
---miche3754 on 11/25/08


cont... (moderator please include this)

Jesus took care of "purging" our sins by His work of salvation at the cross. Hebrews 1:3 affirms, "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus provided full purification for our sins.

mic, you say it cannot be proven. you take 2 maccabees from the ot and say it continues through the nt. that is truly false because Christ paid it all for you. The veil was torn in two giving you access to the Father.
The original sin was undone by Christ.
---miche3754 on 11/25/08


Mic, you insist you follow Christ when you answer but you are really following the RCC denomination, because you think that the RCC is following Christ, so what you do is follow the RCC. If you were following Christ you would know He is Lord and the Head of His spiritual church, where all born again believers are united into one body by the Spirit.
What you have done is followed other man, who is are head of a man made body, who are all sinners, who fail so many times that history is full of their failures. With the believe they are following Christ.
"So your dependence is on the Church and not Christ. Your own faith is on your Church and not Christ. Can you not see this big mistake?
---MarkV. on 11/25/08


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ginger...
After, the cloth in the temple was torn in 2(mark 15). We were no longer seperated from God. Jesus came for ALL NATIONS.

Your right on this Ginger!
The Vail was torn from Top to Bottom, signifying that the Lord had opened up direct access for us to the throne.

Consider this: By putting the Eucharist in the tabernacle at their church alters. The RCC has put God back behind the vail. Suggesting that access to God is only thru them.

This is what mic is saying also!
---Mike356 on 11/25/08


miche3754: "We pay for our sin in this life not the after life."

Miche, you haven't proved that because you can't - the Bible doesn't say that. Is divine justice achieved in this world? No. But it will be in the next world:

"anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32)

There is no "forgiveness" in Heaven or Hell, so there must be a third (temporary) state. Read 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and you will see that your "works" - good and bad - will be "tested", and "revealed" on "the day" - Judgment Day - after you have passed "as through fire".
---Luke65 on 11/24/08


mic,
that is just like you to try and twist the word to what you want it to say.
All of the scripture I gave is truth. You are tying to apply and say it is only for the RCC. There in lies the false hood of the RCC.
Christ came to save all through Him.
The restitution is through the way you live.
by asking for forgiveness it is freely given- GRACE.
The RCC cannot save. Only Christ can and does.
Your mistake is thinking that through performing "sacriments" you are saved. Wrong.
The word says It is a gift freely given by God. You say you have to earn it when you don't. You just have to ask.
You cannot ask for forgiveness if you are dead. How can you be punished for something Christ has already forgiven?
---miche3754 on 11/24/08


mic,
obviously, you think that Christ dying for your sins, is not enough. Even though, the word of God says it is. The RCC had to come up with purgatory, too.
Surely you realize that BEFORE Christ came we were permenately seperated from God?
After, the cloth in the temple was torn in 2(mark 15). We were no longer seperated from God. Jesus came for ALL NATIONS.
Matthew 12:31 plainly says for All sin, but for the RCC, Christ just isn't good enough,right?
Brother, surely you realize this is Blasphemy, just as this passage speaks of?
by creating purgatory and believing in it, you are saying Jesus was not enough, when God said He is.
---ginger on 11/24/08


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cont..
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."matt. 26:28
Then tell me, mic, why did Jesus say that was what it was for?
Christ spilled his blood to atone for All sin.
The RCC has corrupted this to mean a literal and only RCC exclusive thing.
Again, you twist the Words of Christ to mean what you want them to say and cause many to perish because of a lack of knowledge.
---miche3754 on 11/24/08


Mische:-You make reference to several quotes from the scriptures,but placate the wrong intent.Matt26:27-29 is NOT about forgiveness The word for Eucharist is THANKS.Eat wrongfully and it is to your condemnation.To JN14:6 add Jn6,16-17notice the word 'cannot'.God reconciles himself to us by sending His son 2cor.5:17-19 so where is your restitution to God for "your" sins?There is only one way Mische.that is what He preached through His church remember what Mark said:we corrected or tried to correct God by the reformation and see what it got us "Confusion dissatisfaction,and a whole lot of disagreement But the RCC tands true brilliant and unscathed b/c,it is 'My Church'Matt16:13-19.Sayeth the LORD Jesus.
---Mic on 11/24/08


luke,
We pay for our sin in this life not the after life. This is because we know the consequences of sin.
To answer your other questions-
Forgiveness of sin (RCC calls it Eucharist)- Matt 26:27-29
Actions alone don't get us to heaven-John 14:6
Reconciled- 2 Cor. 5:17-19
Life and forgiveness- John10:10
Repentance- Matt. 4:17
Jesus, an atoning sacrifice-1 John 2:2
Author & finisher of our faith - Heb. 12:2
Forgivenss of ALL sin (except Blashpemy of HS)- Matt. 12:31
Be with God- Luke 23:43, 2 Cor. 5:8
Why Jesus came- John 3:16
God Bless you Luke!!
---miche3754 on 11/24/08


miche3754: "Christ covers all sin."

Miche, this is the basic error Protestants make: Yes, Christ's blood covers *forgiveness* for all our sins, but it doesn't cover the *punishment* He judges is due to our sins:

"ANYONE who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism." (Colossians 3:25)

You "repay" our Lord with suffering or good works - if you don't like suffering:

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love COVERS OVER a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8, cf. James 5:20)

How can we "cover over" what Christ has already covered over? We can't.

And nowhere does the Bible say we go straight to Heaven - why do you think that is?
---Luke65 on 11/24/08


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#1. Mic: It isn't about my way, it is all about God's way. And if you don't like God's way then that is tough it is still God's word. Daniel 12:2 has not happened yet. One thing to remember is that the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation works hand-n-hand. Micheal the archangel came to Daniel and showed him in a vision these things. If you read on down in Daniel 12, before Michael told Daniel this prophecy he showed him a vision about what is too come. This prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet. I don't know where you get the idea that it has been fulfilled. Because if it has been fulfilled then we're all in trouble. Re-read this chapter again and you'll see that it hasn't been fulfilled.
---Rebecca_D on 11/23/08


Nicole...your quote.

Miche, you are confused about Salvation.
Jesus' death got rid of Original Sin. Mark16:16.

Mark16:16, Has nothing to do with original sin/infant baptizm!

Marks quote: "HE who believes" and is baptized WILL BE SAVED.
This refers to a person(He) in the singular.
God is interested in saving each individual.
Luke15:10, Likewise I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over One Sinner who repents.

Babies do not have the capacity to reason, or understand something they have no cognizance of in order "To Believe".

Luke3:3, And he(John) went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of Repenetance for the remission of sins.
---Mike356 on 11/22/08


Hades is describe as synomymous with death. Christ holds the keys to Hades and death spoken of in Rev. 1:18. He only is the One that holds those keys. The RCC does not hold those keys as they claim by their doctrines.
For the RCC cannot decide as to who lives or who dies. Only Christ descides that. Hades, is equivalent to Old T. Sheol, the place of the dead noted on 20:13).
Since Hades and death are synonyms, yet death is the condition and Hades is the equivalent to Sheol, the place of the dead.
In Rev. 6:8 Hades been the place of the dead, which is indentified as a common and fitting partner of Death follows. In Rev. 20:13 the phrase describes the state of death.
---MarkV. on 11/22/08


okay,
let clarify before I answer-
you all believe that even though you are saved, you still die with some sin?

Okay, why did Jesus come here then?

This is a wrong teaching. If you are a Christian, you are clean though His sacrifice. When you die your sins are gone, They have been forgiven, completely.
Christ erased them all, So you don't die with some sin.
How can you believe this falsehood?
You are under the blood. Just like the Jews in passover. Christ's death covered you and when you die, you go straight to heaven. You don't need anymore purification. Christ has already taken your sins.
Why do you do eucharist, and confession, if you believe that Christ hasn't absolved you of all your sins?
---miche3754 on 11/22/08


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by the way mic, hades is greek/roman for relm of the dead. It is not a place of no return as you stated.
I am not teaching my son that Christ doesn't take away ALL sin. Because that is false and what you seem to be saying.
Christ said that he came so that we could be free from all sin.
I guess you missed that part.
So, you go ahead and believe that Christ didn't die and cover ALL your sin, and go to purgatory.
Me and my children, We know that Christ took away all sin, and when we die, we will have been absolved of all sin and go to be with the Father,as Paul states. God bless you brother.
---miche3754 on 11/22/08


Samuel:-How does one reply to a question such as yours.Ever heard of Alpha and Omega.Words written in the bible areOf God and TRUE.He (GOD) was, is, and always will be -"Let us create Man to our image and likeness".and so was the soul or spirit of God spoken into man for all eternity.This means immortal never die.hence the saying "as you have lived so shall you reap"
---Mic on 11/21/08


Matthew 17:1-8
So Peter, James and John are lying about seeing Moses (who died thousands of years ago) and Elijah(also died hundreds of years ago) standing next to Jesus?

Let me help you.
We are immortal. Our souls will live forever.
Where is determined by yourself. Nicole

Elijah never died. So that is a mistake. Second Moses appeared in the flesh. Not as a bodiless Spirit which the soul is supposed to be. So he was resurrected.

The bible never says the soul is immortal. It says we are a soul. Gen 2:7 So where is the soul said to be immortal?
---Samuel on 11/21/08


Mische:-You misunderstand Paul Nicole and myself.You speak about things in the RCC that you are not conversant with and then call Nicole Demented.Read your own words:-Hades split in 2 parts??where did you get this from?could you quotePLEASE B/c Hades is a place from which there is NO return.Now you are talking like a 7year old.Mische-nothing defiled enters Heaven so if you die with one teeny weeny sin You are locked OUT till clean, and if you do not have some one praying for you, Then that is where you stay, so teach your son about Purgatory.It will be benificial to Him and for YOU.Righteous pride has a downfall.
---Mic on 11/21/08


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Dear Miche, not sure if I can agree with all sins are the same. Sins are all ugly and they offend God but you can't compare the sin of stealing an apple to the sins of Hitler and other brutal dictators.

The RCC believes that if we die with venial sins, then we'd have to get our souls cleansed in purgatory. I don't want to push you to believe there is such a place - I guess we have to learn how to respect each other's beliefs.
---Paul on 11/21/08


thank you paul for the answer.

Why purgatory, when Christ absolves you of ALL sin while alive?
in Christ eyes, all sins are the same size.
No small and no big because of the intensions.
Remember when Christ says" If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have sinned". Now did you sleep with her, no, but since you thought about it, Christ says you did sin. But Christ forgives it all the same.
You can't repent after you are dead.
Anyway isn't Maccabees OT? if so, Christ's death did away with that brother. Christ covers all sin. If you die a Christian, you go to God because Christ erased all your sins already.
---miche3754 on 11/21/08


We Catholics believe that there are various levels of "sin". We can't believe that God would punish me if I steal a chocolate the same as He would punish someone who commits genocide.

So we believe that for small (venial) sins, we go to purgatory to cleanse our souls from these smaller infractions. We find this in the Maccabees, which is not accepted by Protestants but that does not mean that we are wrong to accept them.
---paul on 11/21/08


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