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Where Is Paradise

Ephesians 4:10 says Christ descended upon His death.Many try to use Christ's statement to the thief on the cross to say He went to paradise when He died. Paradise is always refered to in the realm of heaven. If Christ descended when He died how could He have ascended to paradise at the same time?

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 ---Ryan_Z on 6/30/07
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You are right Lisa, he cant be listening to the Holy Spirit we know, because according to His twisted logic, the Holy Spirit guided the devout Greek scholars to correctly translate all the Greek language scriptures which he has been using here to defend his position. But when the same scholars reached the passage of Luke 23:43, the HS abandoned them! I think we need a little bit of intellectual humility if we are to understand the Bible better.
---Peter on 7/24/07


Ryan,

*I will take the instruction of the Holy Spirit first and foremost before I listen to any "scholar*

That would be fine if what you listen to was really the Holy Spirit. But clearly He is no the one instructing you for He cant contradict Gods scriptures. The HS cant manipulate scripture to mean whatever you want it to mean, to fit your false doctrine. I am sorry but to me and to many other here I think, you are clearly listening to the devil. Pray and turn to the HS, brother!
---Lisa on 7/23/07


Funny how, "He that hath seen me has seen the Father," gets changed into, "He that hath been in my presence has been in the presence of the Father," to fit your doctrine. I guess when you can manipulate scripture to mean whatever you want it to mean you can make it say whatever you want it to say.
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07


When scripture is appropriately interpreted in light of other scripture we see that Jesus did not go to paradise in the 'today' of His death, but rather into the bowels of the earth. Since that can be clearly illustrated in scripture we can deduce that His promise to the thief is of a future event.
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07


Matthew From LA, Peter had more spiritual knowledge then the devout scholars of his day because he had the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I will take the instruction of the Holy Spirit first and foremost before I listen to any "scholar."
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07




**Ryan does the passage suggest everyone Saint in heaven was slain for the Word? No. Then why would I?**

Because it appeared you wanted to use this scripture to prove all souls of believers go to heaven when they die.
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07


Ryan does the passage suggest everyone Saint in heaven was slain for the Word? No. Then why would I?
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/20/07


*Matthew From LA, I have already addressed the thief on the cross, that is a case of a misplaced comma.*

You claim to be smarter then the most devout Greek scholars. I believe those who have studied ancient Greek years and years. According to you all the translations of the Bible have it wrong. So all these Greek scholars don't know what they are talking about , yet somehow you who does not ancient Greek has got it right?
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/20/07


I will reiterate, Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus told the truth to the theif. Jesus went down to the prisons yet the thief went to be in the presence of God that day just as he was in the presence of God when he was dying alongside Jesus. Jesus said "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father".
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/20/07


#1 Brian, the Greek language does not have commas. It is possible that every translation you read misplaced the comma, let me explain why. When Christ died He descended into the earth Eph 4:9-10. We also read of Christ making proclamation to spirits imprisoned in Tartarus (A compartment of Sheol/Hades). These scriptures show that when Christ died He descended into the earth.
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07




#2 Brian, Now where does scripture place paradise? Look at II Cor 12:4 & Rev 2:7. Neither of these scritpures place paradise under or in the earth but rather in the heavens. So when we interpret scripture through scripture, as we are instructed to do, we find Christ descending into the earth upon His death. If christ promised the thief that he would ascend into heaven the day of his death then Christ would be a liar, I can not nor will not accept that.
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07


#3 Brian, Chrsit did not ascend into heaven until after His resurrection. No one has been resurrected because the faithful will not be perfected until the day of the coming of the Lord at the blast of the last trumpet. Christ assured the thief, on the day of the crucifixion, that at the day of His coming the thief would join Him in paradise along with the list of the faithful in Hebrews 11 and all the elect that are asleep in Christ and those that are alive & believe in the day of His coming.
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07


Ryan,
*What Jesus told the theif is, "Varily I say unto you TODAY, you will be with me in paradise*

I've looked at 12 versions of the Bible before me here and I don't see a single one of these Bibles putting a comma AFTER the word "TODAY". They all put it BEFORE the word "TODAY". What version of the Bible are you quoting sir? Because where you put the comma can change the whole meaning of this verse. Advise us what Bible puts the comma after the word TODAY?
---Brian on 7/20/07


Matthew From LA, I have already addressed the thief on the cross, that is a case of a misplaced comma. In Revelation 6 are you suggesting every Christian has been slain because of the word of God?
---Ryan_Z on 7/20/07


Matthew, you have given Ryan good scriputural proof. Let him prove you wrong!
---Peter on 7/20/07


*but I ask you why would Jesus say He would be in paradise the day He died on the cross when the bible teaches He descended and never places paradise in the earth? *

Jesus told Him today he would be with Him in paradise. Jesus is God. Did God leave heaven, when Jesus went down to preach in the prisons? The theif was going to be in the presence of the Father and so Jesus told the truth. Jesus said "He that has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/19/07


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3)
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

And of course the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/19/07


4)
Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

This is before the judgement and resurrection, during the tribulation. These are saints in heaven, talking.
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/19/07


#1 as much as you people want to say that the soul goes to heaven when you die not one of you can produce scritpure to prove it. You attempt to twist the words of Jesus on the cross to the thief, but I ask you why would Jesus say He would be in paradise the day He died on the cross when the bible teaches He descended and never places paradise in the earth?
---Ryan_Z on 7/19/07


#2 What Jesus told the theif is, "Varily I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise." Not that actual day but in the day of His return. That is His promise to all believers.
---Ryan_Z on 7/19/07


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Ryan,
*Just because one is in the minority view does not make them wrong*

I haven't said you're wrong because you're in the minority view. People are wrong simply because they are spiritually blind. Only the Holy Spirit can cure the kind of spiritual blindness of the remnant of people who still believe in annihilation in the grave and re-creation of the person, people who, despite of clarity of scriptures still believe God is God of the dead, and not God of the living!
---Cissy on 7/19/07


#1 **It amazes me that even in this age of Biblical enlightenment...**

Sister, dont be amazed, Ezekiel 12:2 says they have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear. Jesus also says: They look, but they do not see. They listen, but they do not hear or understand (Matt. 13:13). Studies of religious sects show that once a sect instils a belief in its followers, no amount of sound evidence will get it out of them.
---Renato on 7/19/07


I agree with you Brian and others here, soul sleep is a false doctrine and its defenders here have hardly put up any scripturally sound defence of it, except stretching scriptures to suit their beliefs. True, theirs are erroneous heretic assertions. The good thing is that theirs is false minority view characteristic of remnants of religious sects that hardly convince any discerning, Spirit led, Bible reading Christian. Praise the Lord!
---Jereme on 7/19/07


#1 **It amazes me that even in this age of Biblical enlightenment...**

When I read this the first thing that came to mind was the warning to the curch at Laodicea, "You think you can see but you are blind, you think you are rich but you are poor, you think yoo are clothed but you are naked."
---Ryan_Z on 7/18/07


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#2 Just because one is in the minority view does not make them wrong. As a matter of fact narrow is the road and FEW find it. Who is to say that the majority position is the correct position of truth? Christ did not hold the majority position of the Parisees and Saudecees did that make Christ wrong and the Pharisees and Saudecees correct?
---Ryan_Z on 7/18/07


#3 I notice you will say Brother BIlly and I are incorrect, but your assertion that we are incorrect is based on the positon that we do not hold the majority view. It is not that you will use scripture for correction you just say, "Well the educated people told us this, so it must be true." Peter was uneducated and people were amazed by his depth of knowledge.
---Ryan_Z on 7/18/07


I clearly see that you interpret 2 Corinthians 15 in your own way to support your held belief, but this is not the teaching of the passages themselves - rather it is an assumption that you read into them. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, however misguided. God bless you.
---Brain on 7/18/07


Brian, I have looked at these fellows response to your posts. Clearly theirs are erroneous heretic assertions based on misinterpretation of 2 Corinthians 15. No amount of argument will change them. Only the Holy Spirit can. The good thing though is that God has ensured that this false doctrine remains confined to a tiny minority. It survives today mostly among Jehovahs Witnesses and Restorationist sects. Most believers with a sound understanding of the Bible dont even want to waste time arguing over it.
---Jonathan on 7/18/07


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It amazes me that even in this age of Biblical enlightenment, there are still a few Christians who still believe in annihilation in the grave and re-creation of the person, and that God is the God of the dead, and not God of the living! What kind of Bible do these people read?
---Cissy on 7/18/07


1. Brain

All the scriptures you used are true. But what you lack to see, is the timing of this transformation from our natural bodies to our spiritual bodies. 1Cor 15 proves that we cannot live without a body, "1Cor 15:37-44." So when do we receive our spirit bodies after we die? Well, we receive it at the last trump, "1Cor 15:52." When the resurrection takes place, there will be some that havent died. "1Co 15:51" Listen to this secret truth: we shall not all die,
---Billy on 7/17/07


2. Brain

but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant, as quickly as the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed.

Brain, this is the resurrection of the body, when we take up our spirit bodies. At this moment, the dead are still in the grave awaiting the resurrection of the dead. If we are still alive when the resurrection takes place, the dead will be raised first,
---Billy on 7/17/07


3. Brain

and then we that are alive will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Paul proves this fact in 1Cor 15:18. If there were no resurrection, or even until the resurrection takes place, those that have fallen asleep in Christ, "or those that are dead," are perished. Again, even if we could say that there is no resurrection, you claim that we continue to live after we have died. To perish means nothing to you. Paul also says in verse 32,
---Billy on 7/17/07


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4. Brain

that if there was no hope for the yet future resurrection, that we could eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Brain, Paul is saying that if the resurrection is not, that we will not be judged for what we do, because there is no more life. We will have perished. Those that are in the grave are still awaiting the resurrection. At the last trump, they will arise.
---Billy on 7/17/07


#1 Brain, the Holy Spirit, through Job, in chapter 7:9-10 declares that we will not see this body again, I think we agree on that. However the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, tells us in II Cor 5:2 that our new bodies are from heaven. These are the same bodies that Christ declared are in heaven where He has gone to prepare a place for us.
---Ryan_Z on 7/17/07


#2 Brain, 'Houses' in scripture are our dwelling place they are refered to as 'houses' 'tents' and 'temples', all of this is clearly discernable from scripture. Christ is coming for HIs elect with new spirit bodies FROM heaven. So this 'grain' or 'seed' mentioned in I Cor 15 what is it? I suggest to you that it is the perfected soul that has awaited resurrection here on earth and is prepared to be placed in our new houses from heaven.
---Ryan_Z on 7/17/07


Brain

I wont be able to respond till I get home from work. You did touch on 1Cor 15, but you missed the most important parts. Ill get to those scriptures when I get your post togather. I do think that your getting confused on when we are resurrected into our spiritual bodies.
---Billy on 7/17/07


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1)Thanks Brothers Bill and Ryan, for your responses. I honestly believe that the many scriptures given to you in all these posts here fully answer your questions regarding whether can we live without a body and when we do receive our spiritual bodies. But since you want answers with specific reference to 1 Cor 15, here they are.
---Brain on 7/17/07


2)The Bible teaches that we rise with a different body than the one that is placed in the grave. "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 44). The natural body is what is "sown" in the grave, and the spiritual body is what is raised up (1 Corinthians 15: 37, 42-44). People on earth have an earthly body, while people in heaven have a spiritual, heavenly body (1 Corinthians 15: 46-49).
---Brain on 7/17/07


3)The fact that people in the spiritual world have a spiritual body is evident from the appearance of angels mentioned above. For example, Saul recognized Samuel after his death because he had a body similar to the body he had on earth. Clearly it was Samuel's spiritual body, since his physical body was still in grave, and it was his spirit (1 Samuel 28:13) that had risen and was conversing with Saul.
---Brain on 7/17/07


4)The fact that there is a spiritual body is also clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, the rich man lifted his eyes, and asked that Lazarus might dip his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16: 22-24).
---Brain on 7/17/07


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5)We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" (1 Timothy 6:7). When we go to our eternal home "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:5, 7, compare Genesis 3:19). So our earthly body cannot go to heaven, but when we put off our physical body, our corruptible and mortal life is changed into an incorruptible and immortal life (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54).
---Brain on 7/17/07


6)Evidently when Paul said this, some people were wondering if everyone would sleep a long time in the grave before the resurrection, for Paul reassures people that we will not all sleep, and that it will not take ages but will happen immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, that is, when we die.
---Brain on 7/17/07


7)One of the ways that Jesus teaches us about the life after death is by saying, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies, it produces much grain" (John 12: 24, compare Matthew 13:31, Mark 4:31, Luke 13:19).
---Brain on 7/17/07


This is very similar to the analogy that Paul uses: "Someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grainperhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as he pleases, and to each seed its own body." (1 Corinthians 15: 35-38).
---Brain on 7/17/07


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8)When a seed is put into the ground, the outer husk of this seed simply rots away. But within that seed is a germ of life that is raised up with a completely new plant or body around it. Paul says very clearly here that the body which is raised is not the body which is put into the ground.
---Brain on 7/17/07


9)Furthermore, when the farmer plants his seed, it immediately begins growing. It does not remain dormant in the ground for centuries before a new life begins. Likewise, when our bodies are buried in the ground, the germ of life within each of us is immediately raised up clothed with a new body appropriate for the spiritual world.
---Brain on 7/17/07


10)Conclusion: Eternal life is not something that is waiting for us in the distant future. There is no reason to think that we have to wait for a long time, for Jesus tells us that for those who accept the life He gives, the kingdom of heaven is already within them (Luke 17:21), and they have already begun living eternally (John 5:24, 17:2, 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20). That life is not interrupted by death, but rather becomes more abundant and complete.
---Brain on 7/17/07


Ryan, Christ said to the repentant one hanging beside him, this day you will be with me in Paradise. And he said to the Father in heaven, I commit my spirit into your hands, then he gave up the spirit to his Father in Paradise. His expiated spirit, then had to go down into hell and free those waiting for him, and so he took the keys from Satan and rightly released all those souls, then he resurrected his body and appeared to many, and then he ascended with his physical body back up into Paradise.
---Eloy on 7/17/07


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1) Ryan,
You need to interpret Jn. 14:2 in context. This is Jesus' last teaching to His disciples before His crucifixion. Jesus' disciples were about to go through the greatest test of their faith that they had ever encountered. According to John 16:1 (which is a part of this same teaching), Jesus said He was saying these things so His disciples would not be offended. The reason for this is to comfort the disciples and help them put things in perspective.
---Brain on 7/17/07


2) The Greek word for "house" is "oikia" meaning "a residence, abode, or home." This verse is simply stating that in heaven, there are many dwelling places and Jesus is preparing one for us. The use of the word "mansions" simply denotes that we will be taken care of in fine fashion. Simply because our body is referred to as a house or tent in some scriptures doesnt mean that everywhere the word house is mentioned it will be referring to the human body!
---Brain on 7/17/07


1/ Brian

They did not answer my question. I asked them to answer my question according to 1Cor chapter 15. Show me the post where anyone has done this. You believe that im not practicing what I preach concerning "rightly dividing the word of truth"? Im trying to show how we can do this if someone would dare to walk with me through 1Cor 15, and all the other scriptures that theyve used that seem to contradict 1Cor 15.
---Billy on 7/16/07


2/ Brian

But it looks like no one will take me up on it. Well Brian, how bout you? Do you have it in you to see what the whole of Gods Word will reveal to us about this matter, or will you as well cling to the idols of your heart? So would you answer my question according to 1Cor 15?
---Billy on 7/16/07


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#1 Brain, where do you get the idea that it is the body that is raised from the grave? Jesus said, "Im My Father house are many houses, I go there to prepare a place for you." what do you think these houses are? The body we live in is refered to as a house or tent in scripture, from this we can discern the 'houses' Christ spoke about are our new bodies.
---Ryan_Z on 7/16/07


#2 Brain, We also read in I Cor 15 that we do not sow a body but rather a grain or seed to be placed in our new body. It is our soul that is resurrected from sheol because we read in Psalms that God will not abandon us in sheol, not our sinful body of flesh but rather our soul which he has redeemed. No one had ascended into heaven except the Lord Christ Jesus and we will all be perfected together in the day of His coming.
---Ryan_Z on 7/16/07


Diane a careful study of the first four chapters of 2 Cor reveal that Paul is speaking of the day of the coming of the Lord. To take this one section of chapter five and ignore the first part of the letter is not rightly diviving the Word of Truth.
---Ryan_Z on 7/16/07


Ryan,

*2 Cor 5:6-8 is one of THE most abused scriptures in the bible. It certainly does not proclaim that immediately following your death you are in heaven.*

Please prove scripturally that Paul was referring to a future time and not immediately following one's death. Thanks.
---Dianne on 7/16/07


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Bill,

1) I can see from the posts that the brothers and sisters here have already fully answered your questions, using concrete scriptures. May be you want them to use some words (human language) that fits within what you know or desire to believe? You rightly talk about dividing the Word of Truth but your posts here dont prove it.
---Brain on 7/16/07


3) Jesus said in John 5:28-29, ". . . For the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." There is a future time when all people will be resurrected.
---Brain on 7/16/07


3) What kind of resurrection will this be? John 5:28-29 makes it very clear that it will be the part of us that is in the grave, i.e. our physical bodies. In other words, it will be a bodily resurrection. Notice that it will be the voice of the Son of God that will bring them forth, some to a resurrection of life and others to a resurrection of damnation.
---Brain on 7/16/07


4) At this time the immaterial part of man (soul-Rev. 6:9, and spirit-Jas. 2:26) will be reunited and reassembled with the material part (body). When a person dies physically, his body goes through a decomposition and returns to its original elements. However, the soul and spirit go into Heaven or into the lower parts of the earth (2 Cor. 5:8, Lk. 16:19-31), depending on their acceptance or rejection of salvation.
---Brain on 7/16/07


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5)1) True when we die (absent from the body) we are present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). Paul did not believe, nor does the Bible teach, a soul sleep, where after death a person is just asleep or unconscious until the time of the resurrection. I hope this helps, but you are free to continue with your false, man made doctrine, brother!
---Brain on 7/16/07


Ronaldo2

Me nor Ryan are trying to argue. Your words show how your post is one sided and aimed to please those that believe as you do. The scriptures that have been given by those that you have approved are also one sided. No one has considered to whole of scripture to "Rightly dividing the word of truth". Failing to do this will lead to man made doctrines and error. I dont mean this in a bad way, but ill pray for you and them as well, God bless.
---Billy on 7/14/07


Ryan

Very well put! God bless brother.
---Billy on 7/14/07


1/ Frank

We cant take one or two scriptures, or for that fact, we cant take ten scriptures that appear to say the same thing, and deny the two scriptures that appear to contradict the other ten. This isnt how we discern Gods Word. The sum of Gods Word is truth, "Psa 119:160" The sum of thy word is truth, and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. I think this is to much for you to grasp because it reveals the truth of this false doctrine.
---Billy on 7/14/07


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2/ Frank

Ive laid a question out for Precious and her first answer was just to beat around the bush to avoid answering it correctly. So Frank, maybe you can answer it. The whole chapter of 1Cor 15 is speaking about the resurrection and when it is that we continue life after death. So according to 1Cor 15, Can we live without a body? If not, then after giving up this body of clay, when do we receive our spiritual bodies?
---Billy on 7/14/07


3/ Frank

Seeing the truth of 1Cor 15 will give us the answers that we need to properly translate Phil 1:23 & 2Cor 5:6-8. So are you willing to sit down with me like an adult, and find the truth of this matter, or are you afraid you might discover that its your eyes that dont see, and your ears that dont hear.
---Billy on 7/14/07


Meyer, you have a better understanding and correct interpretation of scriptures here on this subject, and I would urge all those who are truly seeking to learn and not just to win arguments, to reflect on the scriptures you have provided. Its really an interesting debate here, but I wonder how these Jehovah's Witnesses and the SDA brethren here can fail to understand scriptures that are so clear like that? Anyway, let pray for them.
---ronaldo2 on 7/14/07


2 Cor 5:6-8 is one of THE most abused scriptures in the bible. It certainly does not proclaim that immediately following your death you are in heaven. What Paul is saying is he looks forward to the time when he will no longer be clothed in sinful flesh but rather be resurrected and placed into his perfect body. Using Phil 1:23 & 2 Cor 5:6-8 to prove a doctrine and ignoring the rest of scritpure is not accurately dividing the Word of Truth.
---Ryan_Z on 7/13/07


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Precious

OK. I dont think it answered my question. I had asked if you could answer the questions according to 1Cor 15. If we can see what Paul is saying in 1Cor 15 first, then we can try to put that scripture togather with Phil 1:23 & 2 Cor 5:6-8, to see how we should interpret these scriptures as a whole. So according to 1Cor15, Can we live without a body? If not, then after giving up this body of clay, when do we receive our spiritual bodies? God bless.
---Billy on 7/13/07


Precious *"If I am in my mortal body, I am absent from God, and if I am absent from this body, I am present with God." Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:6-8.*

Well stated sister, but to brothers like Bill, this is still too hard for them to grasp. I don't know whether it is a problem of the English language, but anyway, Jesus said they will have eyes but they will not see, they will have ears but they will not hear. How true!
---Frank on 7/13/07


Jane

1Cor 15, gives more than enough proof as to what happens after we die. After death we dont live again till the resurrection. If there is no resurrection, Paul said that we could eat and drink, because tomorrow we die. Paul was saying that we wouldnt even have to fear being judged because we dont continue living once we die. Its the resurrection that brings us alive to sit at the judgement seat of God. No one is in heaven or hell at this very moment, sorry. God bless
---Billy on 7/13/07


Bill *Can we live without a body?*

"If I am in my mortal body, I am absent from God, and if I am absent from this body, I am present with God." Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:6-8.
I hope that answers your question?
---Precious on 7/13/07


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1/ Precious

You said, *unless the Jehovah's Witnesses and SDAs brothers here can provide sound scriptural evidence to the contrary (which I havent seen yet in their arguments here). They remain wrong*

I am not a Jehovah's Witnesses nor a SDAs. Neither have I said that I believe in soul sleep. Death is refered to sleep in the scriptures, as Jesus had claimed that Lazarus was asleep,"meaning his death", He had to speak plainly to his disciples and say that Lazarus was dead.
---Billy on 7/12/07


2/ Precious

Death is only refered to sleep in the scriptures, I hope that this is plain enough for you to understand. Even those that sleep in Christ are dead. Sleep is symbolic language for death. I also have given sound scriptural evidence without anyone able to tell me why my scriptures cant be used to support my stance, only to say that im wrong. So If you think that im wrong, dont just say that im wrong, show me that im wrong.
---Billy on 7/12/07


3/ Precious

So ill ask you the same question that Jackie has not been able to answer. So according to 1Cor15, Can we live without a body? If not, then after giving up this body of clay, when do we receive our spiritual bodies? God bless.
---Billy on 7/12/07


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