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Who Is The One True Church

A friend is trying to convince me that the Catholic church is the one true church, the New Testament was compiled 400 years after the resurrection and what cemented the church was 'tradition' because there was no Bible for that length of time. Is this true?

Moderator - Most of the unbiblical tradition was put in place hundreds of years after the completed Bible. Using his logic, that would imply that the Catholic Church is the one true false church as it would be apostate not to follow the Bible which it knew to be true.

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The One True Church are...

The Christians who have a personal relationship with God. The Church is not a non-profit organization, a building, or a denomination.

Jesus is soon to return to join with (marry) His people, not a non-profit organization, a building, or a denomination. Your relationship is between you and God and Jesus being a mediator on your behalf. Not between you, the denomination, Jesus and then God as most Christians believe when you hear them pray to Jesus (Christians must not pray to Jesus).

Living a Christian life is a 24/7 battle against evil. Do an online search for "one another" and "each other" to find out HOW to do God's will.
---Steveng on 10/23/08


Pt 1 of 2: A lot of people misinterpret James 2:14-26 as saying that we are not made right in God's sight by faith alone. This is a vast misconception of this passage. After all, why would this be the only passage in the bible that seams to contradict the rest of the passages about salvation? What James is trying to show us is that faith alone is not enough for us on this side of eternity, that while we're here on this Earth, we should be showing our faith in our actions. Verse 22 says, "You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete." Our actions should be a result of our faith in God.
---Daniel on 10/23/08


Pt 2 of 2: A key to remember is this: Salvation is freely given, rewards are earned. Look at Jeremiah 17:10, "But I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve." And Psalm 91:16, "I will reward them with a long life and give them my salvation." God will reward you for your works, but salvation is given to you freely because of Romans 10:9-10. The bible says that we should be a living sacrifice for God. Let's let our works show that we have faith in God.
---Daniel on 10/23/08


Faith without works is dead....

Even so faith,if it hath not works,is dead being (alone).
James 2:17

Phil 2:13
For it is God which WORKETH IN YOU both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rom3:27Where is boasting then?It is excluded. by what law?Of Works?Nay:but by the law of Faith.

NOW Faith is the substance to things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.
Heb11:1

BUT Without faith it is impossible to Please him.for he that cometh to God must BELIEVE that HE IS and that he is a REWARDER OF THEM THAT DELIGENTLY SEEK HIM.
Heb 11:6


By faith we believe in the Resurrection,even though we were not there.

For those who believe...confess.
Rom10:9-10

God's Peace.
---char on 10/23/08


Annie, Id like to go back to your original post "Who is the one true church"

The RCC is NOT the one true church. Without going too much on specific verses in the bible to prove it, let us just examine if your friends reason holds water.

1. If the RCC is the true church, common logic would dictate that RCCs first leaders should have been taught by the apostles. In fact, they claim that Peter is the first pope, hence the pope who succeeded Peter should have heard from Peter and the other apostles the commandments of God, and it should have then been passed on from generation to generation of their leaders. If so, then "tradition of men" should have never even entered their set of doctrines. (continued)
---manny on 10/23/08




(continued)
2. Granting, without accepting, that the bible as we know it now (a book which is a collection of books from OT and NT) was not existing then, but the individual writings in the bible including the writings of the apostles were already in existence then:
e.g. "this 2nd epistle... I now WRITE..."(2Pe.3:1) The book of 2Peter in todays bible is the 2nd epistle that was WRITTEN during Peter's lifetime.

Books in the OT were also existing during the time of Jesus (read Luk.4:17).

So if the RCC is the true church the commandments of God as written in these different books were already in existence, hence "traditions of men" would not have entered RCC doctrines.
---manny on 10/23/08


Without works, faith is dead.
---Steveng on 10/22/08


Manny, being saved as far as where we spend eternity. Romans 10:9-10 says, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved." And Rom 8:1, "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus." Confessing and believing in Jesus saves us from the death we deserve from sin. We will live with Christ in His kingdom when God makes the final judgment of sin. Works are important while were here to confirm our faith in Jesus.
---Daniel on 10/22/08


The one true church isn't a denomination. It is the body of Christ, the believers, the ones who serve Christ and live for Him. The true church lives by the word of God, not necessarily by man-made religions. It's all about a relationship with Christ, not a religion.
---Faith on 10/22/08


Daniel, I think I know why we cant seem to meet eye to eye on the issue. But before I give my response to your post on 10/21/08, may I ask you, what does the term "being saved" mean to you? How are we saved? In John 3:16 "...that whosoever believe in him..." Do you believe that if we believe in Jesus Christ, we are saved? Looking forward to your response. Thanks.
---manny on 10/21/08




Pt 2: Works are what Jesus expects of us, ONCE we are made right with God. Works do not save us. Faith is what saves us and makes us right with God. Look at Romans 3:27-30 again. It explains it in clear English. No one is saying that works are not important, its just not required for salvation, this is done alone by faith. Remember, Hebrews 11:6 says, "And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him." It doesnt say, "Without works..." What James is saying is that if we say we have faith in God, then our works should reflect that.
---Daniel on 10/21/08


Excellent response Lee.
---Daniel on 10/21/08


Sorry Lee, I was just responding to Daniel's post which gave the notion that works is not needed for salvation. I agree with your position that works is a result of a faith that is alive. Because of faith, we believe in God and in Jesus Christ our savior and we surrender ourselves to His will. But men alone cannot remain steadfast in God's commandments. "...it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps." (Jer.10:23) After we are born again in the spirit, God pours out the holy spirit in us to strengthen us that we may be able to do the works which He had commanded His children to do. "A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." (Prov.16:9)
---manny on 10/20/08


Pt 1: Manny, again, works is NOT what saves you. We are saved by grace, through faith. You are completely missing the point in Romans 3:27-30, "Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isnt He also the God of the Gentiles? Of course He is. There is only one God, and He makes people right with Himself ONLY by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles." We are made right with God ONLY through faith. Continued
---Daniel on 10/20/08


manny - agree with most of what you posted, however, the argument is whether one is saved by faith and works, or is works simply the result of a faith that is alive?

Most Biblical oriented Christians take the latter approach and believe that God works within His children to cause them to do good works.

Eph. 2:10 10 For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When one is born of the Spirit, that Spirit creates a desire within the believer the type of character God wants of His children.

Phil. 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
---Lee1538 on 10/20/08


Ruben, see response to Nicole (2 posts). God sent Jesus. That is the divine part. God had to send Jesus because man could not get it right. Jesus sent the apostles. Yes, the apostles did miracles in the name of Jesus, but Jesus alone could forgive sins. 1 John 1:9 says, "But if we confess our sins to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness." We confess our sins to God, not man to receive forgiveness from God. If man does not forgive you, God still forgives you. Man will have to deal with God for not forgiving you. Jesus was teaching the disciples the importance to forgive others.
---Daniel on 10/20/08


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(1) Daniel (10/17) It is irrational to pit faith against works. These two always go hand in hand in our service to the lord. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have ALL FAITH, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1Cor.13:2) Imagine, how big his faith is it could remove mountains, yet, as apostle paul said, if he did not have charity he is nothing. Isnt charity good works? And again, please read this verse it is very plainly stated: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead? (James 2:20) It is very clear, if works is not needed then the apostles should not have said this.
---manny on 10/20/08


(2) It is faith which makes us believe and accept Christ as our savior but after we have accepted Him as our savior and have confessed our sins to him and asked to be forgiven, do we stop there? "...teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father... teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."(Mat.28:19-20) So after we have been baptized and begin our new life as real followers of Christ, leaving behind our works of old the works of the flesh, we are commanded to observe ALL of Jesus Christs commandments.
---manny on 10/20/08


(3)"...if your enemy is hungry, feed him..."(Rom.12:20) As we follow this commandment of God, are we not doing good works? Yes, and remember that a real Christian will do this good work because Jesus said to observe all of his commandments. "...they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."(1Pet.2:12) Do you see the importance of good works? because of the good works that the followers of Christ do - which the gentiles will see - the gentiles shall glorify God. In short, because of the good works that the nonbelievers see in us Christians (if we are really Christians), they shall glorify God, meaning we may help convert these nonbelievers into children of God. Isnt that great?!
---manny on 10/20/08


The Catholic Church is not the one true church. The true church is composed of the followers of Jesus Christ. We are His Bride, washed whiter than snow by Jesus' blood.
The end times will see the whole world in a one world religion under the Pope in Rome. I think the Catholic church is a false church because it worships others than Jesus.
---Sandra on 10/19/08


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If you where looking for someone in a crowd, what would you look for?
My answer- Characteristics that would identify the individual from all others.
In order to determine which church is truly God's church we must know what His church looks like so that we can pick His true church out of the crowd of professed true churches.
1 Peter 2:9-10- States that God's people are peculiar, among other things. This means different or UNCOMMON. Jesus stated that few find the road to life, because the way is strait and narrow in Matthew 7:14(look at 13 also). Whats popular my not be right Dan 3:8-30. Search the scriptures faithfully for the characteristics of His church.
Read Rev 14:12, 22:14 Isaiah 33:14-15
---John on 10/17/08


Ruben, the version was right after the book and verse: NLT - New Living Translation. In the KJV, "...which had given such power unto men." Look at what the passage is saying, the people praised God for sending Jesus because "He taught with real authority." Not that power was given unto men to forgive sins, this is a wrong interpretation.
---Daneil on 10/17/08

But in Jhn 20:20-23 it reads " As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you. the Father send Jesus to do all sort of things didn't he, so now Jesus is sending the apostles to do the same thing.
---Ruben on 10/17/08


Nicole, again man does not have the power to forgive sins, only Jesus. The context that John 20:22-23 is referring to is that we should forgive people that hurt, harm, deceive, slander, and persecute us as well as anything else they may do wrong against us. We as Christians should be walking in forgiveness. Part III and V of my posts were not posted for whatever reason, but as far as man being able to forgive sins for their salvation, this is not true and wrong. We do not hold that power, that belongs to God. For example, if you wronged someone and then asked for their forgiveness and they did not forgive you, but you asked God for forgiveness, God forgives you...continued
---Daniel on 10/17/08


Continued...It's up to the other person to get right with God. God has already forgiven them, they just choose not to forgive you, and so they continue to walk in unforgiveness. Now apply John 20:22-23, if they do not forgive you, does that mean that your sin is not forgiven and you are not right with God? No, it doesn't. As long as you went to them and asked them for forgiveness and asked God for forgiveness, who do you think takes precedence? God does. So you have been forgive by God and are right with God, but the other is walking in unforgiveness. I hope this clarifies this for you. God bless.
---Daniel on 10/17/08


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Ruben, the version was right after the book and verse: NLT - New Living Translation. In the KJV, "...which had given such power unto men." Look at what the passage is saying, the people praised God for sending Jesus because "He taught with real authority." Not that power was given unto men to forgive sins, this is a wrong interpretation. Look at the whole context in which the passage applies. Most people continue to say that the KJV is the REAL bible, this is false. The KJV is still a translation of the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic text. So to say God gave power to men to forgive sins is completely false and against God.
---Daneil on 10/17/08


Manny, I can say it because God said it. Hopefully Pt V of my post will have posted by the time you read this one, but here is Romans 3:27-30 NLT again, "Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isnt He also the God of the Gentiles? Of course He is. There is only one God, and He makes people right with Himself ONLY by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."
---Daniel on 10/17/08


we do not confess our sins to man, cause man can't help you..We no longer go through the priest to ask God for forgiveness, we go to God directly IN THE NAME OF JESUS. Period.---Daniel

Your Bible missing the Gospel of John?
John 20:22-23 He is only speaking to the 11 Disciples, men not everybody as many want to make excuses for these verses.
Take Jesus on His Words.
He didn't say tell every nations to come to me only if they want forgives. No, He gave them Divine Power to forgive or not to forgive sins in HIS NAME!

"RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. whose SINS YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose SINS YOU RETAIN are retained.

No OT Here.
He gave this Command after His Resurrection.

Why argue with Jesus?
---Nicole on 10/17/08


Pt II: Face it, we do not confess our sins to man, cause man can't help you and that is part of the old covenant (going to the priest). Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not to destroy the law. We no longer go through the priest (man) to ask God for forgiveness, we go to God directly IN THE NAME OF JESUS. Period. The bible says if you want to be made right with God by obeying the law, you have to obey the WHOLE law without any deviation from it. And remember, Galatians 3:10 shows us thisContinued
---Daniel on 10/17/08


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How can you say works is not necessary for salvation? "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20). As a Christian we must follow all the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wasnt it he who said "if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him drink.."(Rom.12:20) If we follow this, are we not doing good works? "And besides this, using all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge temperance, to temperance patience, to patience godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, to brotherly kindness charity..."(2Peter 1:5-7) Clearly faith is not enough.
---manny on 10/17/08


Lee* You are again in error as you assume that my salvation lies with membership in an ecclesiastical institution rather than on the person of Jesus Christ. (Jn. 3:16, Eph. 2:8-10)

This ecclesiastical institution was establish by Jesus himself, you have said it was not the Catholic Church but you have not given me the name of the Church!

It is your salvation that is on line as it is you that beleives an institution will provide for your salvation.


No lee it is Jesus Christ who provides for my salvation, but left the Church to leads us " "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." (Matthew 28:20 Douay)
---Ruben on 10/16/08


Pt I: Ruben: Let's look at Matthew 9:6-8 in the NLT, "So I will prove to you that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins." Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for SENDING a man with such great authority." The context of this passage is in reference to the truth that JESUS has the authority ON EARTH to forgive sins, not man. Stop defeating the work of the cross. Continued...
---Daniel on 10/16/08

Daniel what Bible version are you using, it says "Men" not man.
---Ruben on 10/16/08


Pt I: Ruben: Let's look at Matthew 9:6-8 in the NLT, "So I will prove to you that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins." Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, "Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!" And the man jumped up and went home! Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for SENDING a man with such great authority." The context of this passage is in reference to the truth that JESUS has the authority ON EARTH to forgive sins, not man. Stop defeating the work of the cross. Continued...
---Daniel on 10/16/08


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Pt IV: This is works: Work are not required for salvation, works demonstrate our faith. (James 2:14-26: for those who want this broken down, let me know). Galatians 3:23-26 states, "Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came, it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Continued...
---Daniel on 10/16/08


Sorry, forgot to address this scripture: John 20:21-23, "Again he said, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.' Then he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.'" This refers to the power of the Gospel that the disciples were being sent to preach to all the nations. If people believed, their sins would be forgiven. If they didn't, they would not be forgiven. Only Jesus has the power to forgive sins. Isaiah 43:25 "I - yes, I alone - will blot out your sins for my own sake and will never think of them again."
---Daniel on 10/16/08


Ruben - *But going by the Bible as the final authority your salvation is on line and as you know catholic go by scripture and tradition.

You are again in error as you assume that my salvation lies with membership in an ecclesiastical institution rather than on the person of Jesus Christ. (Jn. 3:16, Eph. 2:8-10)

Indeed the Word of God itself testifies against your belief.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

It is your salvation that is on line as it is you that beleives an institution will provide for your salvation.
---Lee1538 on 10/16/08


Daniel, you gave a great explanation as to what the True Church is. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone boast." Only by grace through faith, and that faith is not our own but a gift of God to the believer.

Some would have us believe that faith alone in Christ alone is not good enough. A teaching from the RCC that has moved outside their denomination. That they have to add to the Works of Christ on the Cross with their good deeds. It is the humaness in them that boasts, that wants to take some credit for their salvation.
---MarkV. on 10/16/08


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Daniel, the usual way it goes is 'repent, believe and follow Jesus' to the extent that you will leave behind your old ideologies. Focusing on faith alone is a mistake that is going to leave you disappointed on the last day. Jesus does not promise to let in all those who plead to him 'Lord, Lord'.
---frances008 on 10/15/08


Lee1538: "Most Roman Catholics are ignorant of Scripture as most of your teachers are in the same sinking boat."

St. Jerome: "Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ."

Lee, I will charitably assume you were not talking about me! I defend all Catholic teachings with Scripture, because, to paraphrase St. Paul: To Bible-believing Protestants I became a Bible-believing Protestant! (1 Corinthians 9:20-23)
---Luke65 on 10/15/08


If the RCC is the one true church, why do the still have confession booths? Why do they have to go to the priest to confess their sins?
---Daniel on 10/15/08

In Mathhew it reads "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, ... But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men "(V6-8).

In John 20:20-23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."(Jhn 20:23)
---Ruben on 10/15/08


daniel,


God Bless You Brother for speaking the truth!!!


AMEN!!
---ginger on 10/15/08


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Lee* As to agreement among Christians, you fail to understand Christians have never agreed on everything including those who claim to be Roman Catholics.

But going by the Bible as the final authorithy your salvation is on line and as you know catholic go by scripture and tradition.


Most Roman Catholics are ignorant of Scripture as most of your teachers are in the same sinking boat.

And most Protestant's are ignorant to think that Jesus said to interpret scripture on our own!
---Ruben on 10/15/08


To Ruben, Samuel, and Lee1538 - That even applies to dictionaries. Please, let it go. We all know there are different language dictionaries. Just face it: Simon. Now called Peter. Peter means "rock". Can we stop this now? Hebrews 5:12-14 NLT says this, "You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about Gods word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food."
---Daniel on 10/15/08


I am speaking of the dictionary definitions of Petra and Peter. If you wish to ignore the Greek dictionary and that it is two different words. That is your choice.
---Samuel on 10/15/08

And I am speaking of Cephas and Peter in Armaric which was the language Jesus spoke.
---Ruben on 10/15/08


Daniel..

Amen.


God Peace.
---char on 10/15/08


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Samuel:- Try God's Dictionary in the RCC.Just a word of advice.
---Mic on 10/15/08


Yes the Church is all true heart believers no matter the denomination.

But truth does matter. It helps to know what you believe and why. But we are saved by Grace not getting everthing right or having apostolic succesion or having the right parents.

Now Ruben wrote Samuel it said "Rock" nowhere did it say small rock. So now you are looking for large cliff or moutain, it never stops with you guys, does it?
---Ruben

I am speaking of the dictionary definitions of Petra and Peter. If you wish to ignore the Greek dictionary and that it is two different words. That is your choice.
---Samuel on 10/15/08


Ruben - *Well since you agree it is a church, please tell me which church and do me a favor, ...

I can do even better -

Ro 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

As to agreement among Christians, you fail to understand Christians have never agreed on everything including those who claim to be Roman Catholics.

And how does one know the Spirit of God dwells within one?

Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,...

Most Roman Catholics are ignorant of Scripture as most of your teachers are in the same sinking boat.
---Lee1538 on 10/15/08


Galatians 3:26-29 NLT shares the same theme, "For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and Gods promise to Abraham belongs to you." Concluded next post...
---Daniel on 10/15/08


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Closing thought: It doesn't matter about denominations, what this or that means, or anything else for that matter. The RCC is NOT the one true church. Those who follow Romans 10:9-10 "Confess AND Believe" are the one true church. If the RCC is the one true church, why do the still have confession booths? Why do they have to go to the priest to confess their sins? They are defeating the work of the cross (read Hebrews). When Christ died, the veil in the temple was ripped in two. That gave us direct access to God through Jesus (John 16:23). We can go before God ourselves to confess or ask God for anything according to His will for us. This is the one true church.
---Daniel on 10/15/08


Ok, for everyone that is STILL trying to debate the "rock" issue, STOP trying to give every little detail about this rock or that rock, small rock, big rock. This is foolishness. Have any of you read Proverbs? It doesn't matter about all of that. What matters is that we all have the same God, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". How long must we debate of these simple and foolish things. The truth of the matter is this: Jesus called Simon Peter. Peter means rock. Small rock, big rock, it doesnt matter. Jesus told Peter He was going to build His church (not the RCC, or any other denomination) on the work that Peter was GOING to do. That's it, end of story.
---Daniel on 10/15/08


Galatians 3:1-4 NTL says this, "Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christs death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?"
---Daniel on 10/15/08


But he did suggest as an alterative rendering of Mt. 16:18 that the rock on which the church was built was Peter's confession. (Phillip Schaff, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, vol Vi, St Augustin, Sermons on NT Lessons, 26.1-2, p. 340.
---Lee1538 on 10/13/08

Like you do scripture you pick and choose what you think support your views :

"For, if the order of the succession of bishops is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter, to whom the Lord said: 'Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."" (St. Augustine, Epistle 53)
---Ruben on 10/14/08


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Small rock. Not large cliff face or Mountain like Petra means. So your point just confirms what I was saying. The Greeks did not translate Cephas as Petra Large but peter small rock or stone.
---Samuel on 10/14/08

Samuel it said "Rock" nowhere did it say small rock. So now you are looking for large cliff or moutain, it never stops with you guys, does it?
---Ruben on 10/14/08


You guys really need to unlearn the garbage you have been fed over the years as you were taught that whenever you see the word 'church' in Scripture, it has to mean the Roman Catholic church. Nothing could be further from the truth.
---Lee1538 on 10/14/08

Well since you agree it is a church, would you please tell me which church and do me a favor, please do not give me the garbage of all believers in Christ because the born-again believers cannot agree among themselfs.
---Ruben on 10/14/08


The One true Body of Christ is the collected called, faithful, and chosen believers from every tribe nation, people, and language. Called out of Babylon the great unto New Jerusalem Israel as Her Children that The Lord Has Given Christ. Make a tree good and it bears good fruit for Only God is Good, God With Us is His Name Immanuel. That it may be shown that what was done was done in God and through God for apart from Me you can do nothing says Our Lord.
---jack_david on 10/14/08


Ruben - *There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church.


Are you really certain that he said that or did he say 'in the bosom of the catholic church'?

You guys really need to unlearn the garbage you have been fed over the years as you were taught that whenever you see the word 'church' in Scripture, it has to mean the Roman Catholic church. Nothing could be further from the truth.
---Lee1538 on 10/14/08


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daniel, thank you so much brother.
there are many on this site who do question the salvation of others when it is not their place to. That is why I made that statement.

Instead of just giving the knowledge they have they choose to call names and judge when someone does not agree with what they are saying.This is not our place as Christians to do that to do that.

Anyway, I completely agree with you, too.
---ginger on 10/14/08


Cephas

a Syriac surname given by Christ to Simon (John 1:42), meaning "rock." The Greeks translated it by Petros, and the Latins by Petrus. Ruben

Small rock. Not large cliff face or Mountain like Petra means. So your point just confirms what I was saying. The Greeks did not translate Cephas as Petra Large but peter small rock or stone.

The Greek Orthodox church has a good history of Apostolic Priests. Maybe even better then the RCC since they had no antipopes in the group. So if you are going to go on the line of priesthood then it shoudl be the Orthodox church you join.
---Samuel on 10/14/08


Ginger, no one is questioning your salvation. You are correct on that. The topic is who is the one true church. The truth is that we (Christians) are the one true church, built on what the Jesus taught through the apostles to give to all who would listen. We believers are the ones who have come under such persecution and scrutiny because of what goes on right in our midst. Paul's letters are still proof today that we continue to bicker, argue, and dilute the word of God with our own view of how and where to worship, and our own interpretation of how God wants things done. If we just live the example Christ has laid out, we will accomplish a lot more.
---Daniel on 10/14/08


Ruben - I can easily see why St. Augustine wrote his Retractions as he certainly changed some of his beliefs as he grew in the knowledge of the Scripture.

But he did suggest as an alterative rendering of Mt. 16:18 that the rock on which the church was built was Peter's confession. (Phillip Schaff, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, vol Vi, St Augustin, Sermons on NT Lessons, 26.1-2, p. 340.

It is also interesting that while we find an unanimity of interpretation of Mt. 16:28-19, it is one of near unanimous opposition to the RCC interpretation as articulated by the Vatican.
---Lee1538 on 10/13/08


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And if you read St. Augustine the word catholic he used was spelled with a small 'c' meaning universal, not the denomination Roman Catholicism. Again, you are wrong having been brainwashed by your denomination.
---Lee1538 on 10/10/08

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]). Is there another "c" which has a Pope?
---Ruben on 10/13/08


according to history. its known that the four gospels were written before 70AD. and the epistles of the apostles written within the 1st century.

when they were compiled and put into one book is not at issue. because every church had copies of the epistles and gospels.

its true that at one time the catholic leadership took the epistles and gospels away from the believers. and replaced true faith with catholic traditions.

but it never made the catholics "the true church".
---opalgal on 10/13/08


Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

As shown from these translation which includes the latin it shows. Peter means stone not the moutain Petra.
---Samuel on 10/13/08

Cephas

a Syriac surname given by Christ to Simon (John 1:42), meaning "rock." The Greeks translated it by Petros, and the Latins by Petrus.






---Ruben on 10/13/08


I apologize IF I misinterpreted a scripture. It still does not change the fact that Jesus Christ is the CHURCH, and WE(Christians) are the Body of Christ.
Jesus used ALL of the 12 disciple to spread the Gospel. Not one was put above the other.

Catholic, Protestant or any other Religion is NOT going to get me into to heaven. Only my belief that Christ IS the SON of GOD will do that. None of you are resposible for my salvation. I am.

Philipians 2:12

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

My personal relationship with God. No one else here has saved me, BUT JESUS.
---ginger on 10/13/08


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Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

NASB - Jhn 1:42 - He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John, you shall be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter).

et adduxit eum ad Iesum intuitus autem eum Iesus dixit tu es Simon filius Iohanna tu vocaberis Cephas quod interpretatur Petrus
Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

As shown from these translation which includes the latin it shows. Peter means stone not the moutain Petra.
---Samuel on 10/13/08


Ginger, again you misinterpret the scripture. First, in Matthew 4:18, the statement of "Simon called Peter" does not mean his name was Peter before Jesus met him. The writer (Matthew) was writing this and referred to this so the readers (and future readers) would know that Peter's name use to be Simon. If what you said was the case, Jesus would not have even told peter that He was changing his name. Yes we know that Jesus is "the Rock", but in this context of scripture, Jesus WAS referring to Peter. Continued next post
---Daniel on 10/13/08


Nicole Dear,I love your last post,but have to correct a TYPO in the last two sentences. Slaughter for slander,And Traitor for trader.Keep Blogging God is with You.Hope you don't mind.:-)
---Mic on 10/10/08

No, never.
Correction with sugar is always sweet.

THANKS!
---Nicole on 10/11/08


****
WHO'S OPINION DO YOU THINK I CARE ABOUT?
****

YOU SHOULD CARE about what God WANTS and OBEY GOD

God does not have an "opinion" as you ignorantly claim he expects true Christians to obey ...NT mentions it many dozens of times but rcc chooses its catechism OVER Gods Plain TRUTH

...and this is why the "opinion" you cherish is the pagan lies of rcc ...remember the "keys" you misapply in Matt was a fable started in 1215AD which is why NO OTHER scripture supports rcc's misunderstanding of Matthew

this is why rcc believes true Christians give them opinion because they follow opinion unable to see the TRUTH in scripture

TRUE Christians follow God ...not the opinions of man
---Rhonda on 10/11/08


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Rob: "Luke65, I am wondering if yourself along with Nicole are able to determine the difference between petros and petra? Matthew 16:15-18."

I'm not sure, but maybe the inspired authors used "Petros" because Peter is a man, baby! I mean, dear Lord, Jesus made the poor guy go through the rest of his life being called "Rock", can you imagine if the Greeks called him "Petra"! Girlie-man! Carry your cross, Peter!

That's not funny, he literally did (see John 21:18-19).

But it's irrelevant, Rob, Christ called him "Cephas", as John 1:42 makes perfectly clear.
---Luke65 on 10/10/08


Luke - your quote from Pope Clement I (Letter to the Corinthians c.80AD) really says nothing but simply addresses the fact that churches wrote letter to each other.

And if you read St. Augustine the word catholic he used was spelled with a small 'c' meaning universal, not the denomination Roman Catholicism. Again, you are wrong having been brainwashed by your denomination.

Nicole, where did I call anyone in this forum names? What I stated about you is that you are apparently uneducated and unknowledgeable about either church history or scripture. And that much is rather obvious!
---Lee1538 on 10/10/08


Nicole: "To Lee1538 and all others who think name calling hurts me."

Oh Nicole, my sweet Nicole! (great song!) All you have to do is show them what Christ's powerful sacramental graces have done for you, and let them show what the lack of sacramental graces does for them.

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING ITS POWER." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
---Luke65 on 10/10/08


That Simon was called Peter by others before Simon even met Jesus. So, in actuality, Jesus did NOT change Simons name to Peter. Jesus started calling Simon, Peter because that is what Simon was known by in His community.
---ginger on 10/10/08


And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, (JHN 1:42)

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter(MT 16:16-17)
---Ruben on 10/10/08


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So, yes Peter does mean rock but not the rock Jesus is talking about.
Peter was called the first disciple because he was the first to follow and recognize Jesus for who He was.
---ginger on 10/10/08

Not according to Jesus "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"(MT 16:18)
---Ruben on 10/10/08


Nicole Dear,I love your last post,but have to correct a TYPO in the last two sentences. Slaughter for slander,And Traitor for trader.Keep Blogging God is with You.Hope you don't mind.:-)
---Mic on 10/10/08


Peter's name is rock....

BUT the "Church" built is the "Body of Christ".


Christians...The Body is ANYONE WHO BELIEVES, Jesus died,rose from the died/He is the Son of God. ANYONE.....

Whether JESUS SPOKE GREEK OR ARAMAIC ,the message is the same....

UPON THIS ROCK....


THE CHURCH CAN BE YOU AND ME....

If those in the Catholic Church want to believe they are CHILDREN OF GOD,they can....

EVEN IF Scrpiture DOES NOT support THEM AS THE ONLY CHURCH. SUPPORTED IS

Anyone....
whoever....

catholics,protestants,Jews,Gentiles,men,woman,children.


PHARISEES close the door to the man WHOM JESUS HEALED...
JESUS RECEIVED HIM.

God's Peace.
---char on 10/10/08


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