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Do You Have Righteousness

Here Paul is talking in frist Philippians 5:9 and he says, "And be found in him, not having MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW," question are people who insist on keeping the law trying to create their own righteousness thereby?

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>you need no man or woman teach you for He can write His commandments on your heart.

That is precisely the nature of the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
---David on 6/2/08

lorra - there are a lot of charismatic catholics. I'd encourage you to investigate it - it is wonderful - and no it is not about some high.
When people have not experienced something they are skeptical (and should be) thats why I say go to a RCC charismatic group.
If you came into my church and we are High praise and worship - you probably would not even know that most of us speak in tongues. Its usually in prayer.
Be blessed.
---Andrea on 9/3/07

Andrea, I do not have a problem with tongues other than the normal cautions. I am thrilled to hear that mainstream Pentecostals do not require tongues as evidence of salvation. I can only assume that the Oneness Pentecostals are a bigger group than I thought because so many Pentecostals have claimed that if I did not speak in tongues when baptised, then I was not saved.
---lorra8574 on 9/3/07

lorra the only group that I know of that teaches you MUST speak in tongues is Oneness Pentecostals - considered a cult. I'm not familiar with them nor would I want to be.
Speaking in tongues should not even be an issue within a denomination. If I go to a Baptist church I wouldn't disrupt their service with tongues any more then if I go to a store.
The gift is the Holy Spirit one of the evidences is tongues. I encourage all Christians to ask God for His gift and accept the evidence.
---Andrea on 9/2/07

OK the Catholic Church never claimed that the gifts went away. Throughout our history we have had saints blessed with extraordinary gifts, not just tongues. The Charismatic groups in my area have not been pushed away and are active within the mainstream Church. Some have been a little more extreme, there are lots of fringe groups that go off the deep end a little.
---lorra8574 on 8/29/07

Andrea, on the matter of Pentacostals, the gift of tongues is not the big issue. But the teaching that it is the only proof of salvation when one is baptised was unheard of prior to the institution of that church in the post-reformation era. The doctrine of the "Rapture" as a separate event from the Second (and final) Coming, is also a new teaching. ...
---lorra8574 on 8/29/07

Rm. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God (religious people), but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rm1:17 4 therein (GOSPEL) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: , The just shall live by faith.

---steven-rem7000 on 8/29/07

Andrea P2: The millennial reign of Christ as a literal 1000 year earthly reign after the rapture, is also new, although there was a heresy similar to this that came and went briefly in the early church.

The latest evolution of the Pentacostal Church is the Oneness Pentacostals (that church separated from the main mody) which deny the Trinity and have the human Jesus as an fleshly avatar created to hold the divine Father - which is a distinctively pagan idea.
---lorra8574 on 8/29/07

Andrea, the doctrines I presented are all post-Reformation with no inkling in the early Church, except for a brief idea of a literal millennial reign (although not post rapture). Further, none are supported by the scriptures. I had a Pentacostal missionary try to explain them all to me and I got confused by all the elaborate diagrams.
---lorra8574 on 8/29/07

OK - Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book V, C6, para 1. Indicates that the charismatic gifts were still around in the second generation of Christians, later Church Fathers do indicate that some gifts lessened, but even in the fourth century there was an openness to receive the charisms, which includes the gift of tongues, but not only that.

Other charisms continued thoughout - healing, for example.
---lorra8574 on 8/30/07

MikeM - I'm so sorry you've been so hurt in the past - you don't have to join a church you can just worship within a group of believers you are comfortable with.

Youtube - has 'Mormon' scholars discussing the evidence that states the bk of Mormon is a lie - and Jos Smith made it up.
DNA Mormon evidence Bishop Southerton and Dr Murphy - LDS people conclude Smith would be convicted of fraud
---Andrea on 8/29/07

"The normal teaching of the apostles was repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved "This statement is exactly right. And the word repent as used here refers to a changing of the mind from not believing in the Lord Jesus Christ to believeing in the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
---Mima on 8/29/07

The normal teaching of the apostles was repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. The fact that repentance and faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ were the only requirements for salvation was clear to them. Water baptism was a symbol of this salvation. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit was given for power and service and was promised to saved people only.
---Andrea on 8/28/07

This is another big reason I am not fundamentalist. Once people become fundamentalist, they stop thinking, even declaring thinking a sin, I have seen it here. This they pick up from Pauls description of the natural (carnal) man. They see the mind as evil, thus dont confuse me with facts, my mind is made up. The ones I know are forever in first grade, nursing their past emotional hurts-forever. This renders them cannon fodder to autocratic men.
---MikeM on 8/28/07

Lorra, it's true the Catholics have a group of catholics that are called "charismatic" or the charismatic movement and are sometimes banned or pushed away by the rest of the Catholic church. This movement in the catholic church came AFTER, MUCH AFTER, and as a result of the "Pentecostal movement".
---OK on 8/28/07

lorra - please be at least a little specific. I know we're confined by space but to make a blanket statement is misleading. If you have a valid point - please make it.
---Andrea on 8/28/07

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Darlene 1, the Catholic Church has its own charismatics who speak in tongues, and this has occurred long before the Pentacostal movement. It was some Protestants who claimed that such gifts went away after the Apostolic age.

Many of the teachings of the Pentacostal Church are new and not taught prior to the 1800's, regardless of the gift of tongues.
---lorra8574 on 8/27/07

QUOTE: "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will put the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone
---Andrea on 8/27/07

Contrary to the teaching of men, Pentecost began in the upper room and never left. You may not find listed Pentecostals throughout History,you can find Men of the Catholic Church writing against the tongues used by Pentecostals,but without naming them that. That proves Pentecostal practices never went away to have to come back. In early 1900's not new, only a revivial among people who woke up,accepted the full Gospel of the Promise of Christ, Baptism of the Holy Ghost, as in Acts.
---Darlene_1 on 8/27/07

It says they are the lost tribes of Israel, but DNA tests from Native Americans prove that is not the case.
---Gail on 8/25/07
Are you Christian or JW.
Your attitude with me has been so ugly I think your one of those lying spies that they talk about. Then you come out and show the mormons Joseph lied -and encourage me to go find more info about LDS - so what are you?
---Andrea on 8/26/07

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."5 Bennett's book also contains the earliest reference, in a letter from George W. Robinson, about the garments which participants wore: "After they are initiated into the lodge, they have oil poured on them, and then a mark or hole cut in the breast of their shirts, which shirts must not be worn any more, but laid up to keep the Destroying Angel from them and their families, and they should never die."6

God Bless you Gail...thanks for encouraging me
---Andrea on 8/26/07

Brigham Young reminisced:

When we got our washings and anointings under the hands of the Prophet Joseph at Nauvoo, we had only one room to work in with the exception of a little side room or office where we were washed and anointed, and had our garments placed upon us and received our New Name. After he had performed these ceremonies, he gave the Key Words[,] signs, tokens and penalties. Then after this we went .......

more of same - this stuff is not a secret its just weird.
---Andrea on 8/26/07

This is how a mormon gets saved....???????In Nauvoo, Illinois, Joseph Smith continued to expand Mormon salvation concepts, concepts which came to be intertwined with rituals later performed in temples. He defined the principle of "mak[ing your] calling and election sure" in a 27 June 1839 sermon. This was to be accomplished, after a lifetime of service and devotion, by being "sealed up" to exaltation

if you want to read more on your own its LDS temple worship...
---Andrea on 8/26/07

Mikem: you are reinforcing what I said. from the official pentacostle website sanctioned by the church, they admit themselves they started in 1904 in Texas. The group then moved to California and grew as two independant groups. that ended when they merged in 1945. regardless what happened, it was started by men wanting to profit off the blood of Jesus Christ. men have made millions in all born again churches. preaching one thing, but reaping the rewards of wealth from those who can least afford it.
---Lori on 8/26/07

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- includes promises of dedication to the Kingdom of God on earth, obedience, chastity, secrecy, a type of vengeance oath, and a penalty. Perhaps the most significant part of Bennett's description is the language borrowed from Psalms 133:1-3 to describe the anointing: "When the oath has been administered, the candidate is clothed with the robe of the order, and the precious ointment, or consecrated oil, poured upon his head, till it runs down upon his beard and the skirts of his garment cnt
---Andrea on 8/26/07

Andrea, we don't need more than 85 of your words to know that you don't really know what you're talking about. That's a fact.
---Gail on 8/26/07

Lori- Slight disagreement. Pentecostals began in Azusa Ca and Topeka KS about 1905.
What Pentecostals experience is bio-chemical, study after study confirms this, the release of endorphins in the bloodstream. In reality Pentecostals have more in common with the ancient followers of Dionysus than anything else. As a boy I was around them, they put sawdust on the floor to break their fall, and then they rolled around it they looked like breaded chickens.
---MikeM on 8/26/07

Dave, come out of hiding. Do you believe Andrea's testimony?
Especially the part about slipping some additional cash to the temple workers?
---Gail on 8/26/07

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Gail - I think your a christian from what i can see - where do you get the not believing me - I have been more then honest - even too a fault so I'm asking - bc I think it is important to witness truth to those caught in the web of deception in cults or under false doctrines. Not my truth - His truth. When I'm wrong I stand corrected.
So aside from the fact you feel like I'm a liar - where do you get it from.
I'd appreciate your input. Thank you,
---Andrea on 8/26/07

lori - you are picking on the wrong person.
I'm not out to get you or your denomination. I post to Mormons bc i know the depth of the deception. It is a maze of lies and deceit that can lead to hell.

When I refer people to josephlied this is a former site - people who understand and want truth.

If there information is wrong tell me what it is and I will check it and apologize.

These posts are too short to explain doctrines. It sound brusk but its just short. love in Christ, Andrea
---Andrea on 8/26/07

Gail - it is a small thing
I forgive you
---Andrea on 8/26/07

andrea, you said: Anyone who brings a NEW gospel is to be accursed. you also said you are now pentacostle. the pentacostle church was formed in 1904 in Texas. they teach you must speak in tongues to have the spirit. false. Jesus said to some he gave different gifts, NOT EVERYONE! Some he gave the gift of prophecy, healing, interpretation of tongues, tongues etc. your own words have come back to haunt you. Satan uses the internet for his own glory and to deceive everyone.
---lori on 8/25/07

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No, I don't believe you. I don't believe that you were ever a mormon. I don't really care where you go to church now, or where you live, I simply do not believe your testimony or that you were ever a mormon.
You've proven that by the words that you speak. Dave can see through it, too.
It takes one to know one, and I think you are of the internet variety.
---Gail on 8/25/07

Dave and I can go head to head, because we at least know that we're talking the same lingo. I don't witness any sincerity in your testimony, none.
---Gail on 8/25/07

" if all else fails attack the messenger."

Yeah, I don't know why facts don't work with you, but, when someone lies through their teeth to you you buy it, why?!?!?

I wasn't attacking you--I was attacking your source. Although now since you just proved how low your reading ability is ....
---djconklin on 8/25/07

Ward - Pitman NJ
Bishop - Downing
---Andrea on 8/25/07

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Gail - I know the Mormons have a right to be mad at me - I've attacked their BOM and their prophet and I don't apologize bc I care. BC I was one of them. Why do you.

You not knowing me from adam call me a liar.

are you representing a cult?
This board seems well represented by SDAs, LDSs and a few JWs - I'm non-denominational Pentecostal. I don't try to drum up business and my agenda is Christ. Saved by grace.
I'm annihilist
Spirit filled
whats your problem?
---Andrea on 8/25/07

dj - if all else fails attack the messenger.

If you have a problem with what I say - I'm listening.
I find it a lot easier to access sources on the web - while I'm on the web.
Don't you.
---Andrea on 8/25/07

"Andrea, from what I've read, all of your info comes from the web."

That would go a long way towards explaining the misinformation she comes up with. The bad part is that she believes every word of it! Is it really that hard to know when you are being told the truth or a lie?
---djconklin on 8/25/07

just kidding - you don't have to apologize -

if I were in your shoes I'd be angry and resentful - how dare she impugn our faith - question my churches motives and call me a polytheist -

again - it is not a thing of joy and if you get angry - ok - say it.
noone like to be challenged on things they hold dear - at least I don't
---Andrea on 8/24/07

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I do not know if the truth of this will be posted or not. This Dr Walter Martin said Jews are Children of the Devil. This is well documented and I have it on tape. He may have interesting things to say, but after that any rational person can dismiss someone of that ilk. He is the darling of fundamentalist and most real credible persons involved in religious only chuckle at the
---MikeM on 8/24/07

On the web those who attack the LDS are also busy attacking all others religions other than themselves, fundamentalism. I have seen some of these sites, and in reality, they are, in the final analysis hurting themselves. Mostly they rely on the fallacy of straw man arguments, and argue from a priori position. Any thinking person can see through this. They are not interested in debate, and the fundamentalist will bail from any real debate.
---MikeM on 8/24/07

Andrea, from what I've read, all of your info comes from the web.
Mormons know what goes on in the temple, whether you go there or not. They talk amongst themselves. No, I don't believe you were a mormon.
---Gail on 8/24/07

Listen I was baptized Mormon I never went to the temple and never lived in Utah.
The LDS lit. is all over the web and there are plenty of former LDS - is that the best you have - you don't think I was- so that has nothing to do with Jos Smith lying and Mormons teaching polygamy and polytheism.

I'm certainly not bragging that I got duped into believing LDS.
A cult always has a leader - who has to interpret scripture to you.
Anyone who brings a NEW gospel is to be accursed.
---Andrea on 8/24/07

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Joseph Smith wrote his official account of the first vision in 1838 - this was published in times and seasons in 1842, a whole 2 decades after the event was alleged to have taken place.

What most mormons have never been told is the fact that there were between 6 and 9 earlier drafts of the first vision - i will attempt to present some of these accounts to you below and also add some hand written comments by men and women who new Joseph personally.

look for yourself.
---Andrea on 8/24/07

May God instill in you a hunger for truth, I would gladly apologize and buy you dinner if you can show me I'm wrong.
---Andrea on 8/24/07

andrea: if I were to take the time to erase every verse in the bible that you say doesn't exist or is false, you would be left with half a page of the bible, if that. you either accept the whole bible as the word of God or you don't. it is that simple. you can argue, ridicule, mock everyone around you, but until you realize you need to study things yourself, you are living your life in vain. The glory of God is intelligence, not ignorance. you have to know the gospel before you can teach it.
---Lori on 8/24/07

andrea, I served as Sunday School president twice. I also served my mission for the church in the heart of the bible belt. There is nothing you say that I have not heard a thousand times before. To fulfill the calling I received, I have to know the bible inside and out, so I can monitor the teachers and make sure false doctrines are not taught within the Savior's church. it is a shame that many churches don't do the same. There is only one bible. people should be united in faith, not torn apart by it.
---ashley on 8/24/07

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"lori - deceit seems to come all too natural to you. becareful I'll tell the prophet - I'm probably still on the rolls.
---Andrea on 8/23/07 "

I don't think you were ever on the rolls, Andrea. Your description of what takes place in the temple was totally false.
I don't know if you read your info on the internet, but you really messed that one up.
Dave knows what takes place in those ceremonies, and so do I. It was not as you described, by a long shot.
---Gail on 8/23/07


"But if keeping the commandments is how your working your way to heaven - good luck with that."

No one teaches that one can keep the commandments and work one's way to heaven. The Law shows us where we sin so we can seek God's grace and forgiveness. The problem is that some are too proud to admit that they are a sinner. They wish to appear holy by merely claiming it.
---djconklin on 8/23/07

"I haven't seen anyone here supporting murder or sin."

It is by analogy. Any sin we commit caused Christ to die on the Cross to save us. Do you think that because He has aleady done so that you are free to sin? I hope not.
---djconklin on 8/23/07

You guys love to bash LDS's and say you don't teach true doctrines. Show me one thing LDS's teach that isn't truth. Lori

polytheism - you are little gods!

JS lied over and over again - he didn't just start polygamy - HE MARRIED other mens wives.

lori - deceit seems to come all too natural to you. becareful I'll tell the prophet - I'm probably still on the rolls.
---Andrea on 8/23/07

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You guys love to bash LDS's and say you don't teach true doctrines. Show me one thing LDS's teach that isn't truth. Lori

polytheism - you are little gods!

JS lied over and over again - he didn't just start polygamy - HE MARRIED other mens wives.

lori - deceit seems to come all too natural to you. becareful I'll tell the prophet - I'm probably still on the rolls.
---Andrea on 8/23/07

Galatians 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

the false gospel of Joseph smith - do you see it - it is a cult and he is accursed - I didn't write it - Paul did.

Paul specifically warned about the angel of light (Satan).

just like Ellen White and Mohammed - they all saw the same angel!
---Andrea on 8/23/07

Andrea: if you are saying that you can yell praise God on sundays and then indulge in whatever evils you desire during the week, you are the one that is misinformed. we were given commandments as guidelines to live our lives. we know what we can do in God's eyes and what we can't do or we will face the consequences. that is spiritual death. why is it everyone says yes have faith in christ but then they say indulge the world in the same breath. you are either for him or against him, no in between.
---lori on 8/23/07

We receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then we follow the commandments out of love, and respect, not because we are commanded.
Obeying because we are commanded is legalism.
Obeying out of love and respect is part of our relationship with the Lord.
---Pat on 8/23/07

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Righteousness means RIGHT-STANDING with God.
The moment we are saved, we have right-standing with God. HE gives it to us. It isn't something we earn by being good, or doing good. If we earned it by our own works, it would be self-righteousness.
---Pat on 8/23/07

Lori I haven't seen anyone here supporting murder or sin.
But if keeping the commandments is how your working your way to heaven - good luck with that.
---Andrea on 8/22/07

The point of the mountain or the bush being Holy is it wasn't bc the mountain DID anything. the mountain did not keep the commandments - the mountain had the presence of God. Any believer who has Christ in them Has the Holy Spirit and is Holy. Not bc they did anything.

Be the mountain.
---Andrea on 8/22/07

Jesus said: "If ye love me KEEP my commandments." many profess his name and that is all it is, name only. anyone that says they can partake of the evils of the world and walk into the kingdom of God are naive and blind. we have our choice, obey God or satan, you cannot serve two masters. you can't attend church on sunday and live in adultery during the week. You cannot lie, cheat, steal, worship idols, kill people and then expect to be rewarded for it.
---Lori on 8/17/07

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We are to differentiate the holy from the common! WHO SAID THAT!

if you are saved - bought by the blood of the lamb you are not common.

I worship Him everyday and I will rest in Him for eternity

The Sabbath is your rest - recieve it
but it is a rest in Christ Jesus [please don't think it is just for Saturdays - it is so much more - so complete - so Jesus
---Andrea on 8/16/07


I too take the Laws to be sacred, however I am responding to those who use the law as a means to obtain salvation. In this case it would be legalism.
---Marcia on 8/16/07

Hello, I apologize, but I never knew that because I still hold the ten commandments and the sabbath day to be holy..that I must believe they save me..I don't believe that..and I do believe in keeping those laws...I know Jesus is my only Saviour, but the Laws are still sacred to me are you saying that is wrong???? Humans still need laws...if not this world will be even more caotic that it is now...right?
---fatladysings on 8/15/07


Yes those who are trying to keep the law in their own strength have fallen from Grace. Read the book of Galation's this church fell into that very same snare. It is the trap of legalism. Trying to obtain righteousness through the works of the Law.

I agree with Andrea, The blood of Christ is like a permenent Marker, it does not grow faint with time or Wear away, it is just that Powerfull. It is a Mark for eternity and no sin can weaken its Power.
---Marcia on 8/15/07

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No Andrea, not 24/7. We are to differentiate the holy from the common.

Her priests have profaned My holy things, they have not distinguished between the holy and unhloy, and they have hidden their eyes from MY Sabbath, so that I am profaned amoung them. Ezek. 22:26

6 days are common. The 7th is holy. I didn't say this. God did.
---robin8683 on 8/14/07

Yes! yes! yes! hallelujah!

The Sabbath everyday 24/7
do you take a day off from worshiping God?

so what seperates you from other denominations? Is exactly what should make you see that we all worship Him 24/7.

Is there something wrong with being 'like' other churches or is that what draws you to SDA
---Andrea on 8/14/07

Andrea, the same thing that made the mountain and the burning bush holy--the presence of God--is the same thing that makes the Sabbath holy.
---robin8683 on 8/14/07

Most of you are misunderstanding David. He is not promoting salvation by works.
He is in agreement with you that our righteousness is through the blood of Jesus. Listen to what he is saying from that perspective.
---robin8683 on 8/14/07

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Christ is our sin bearer who died in our stead so that we are freed from the PENALTY of sin... not made free to sin with impunity!
Those that have an issue with this have an issue with the Word and are unwilling to follow it. You know you are in sin and refuse to repent because you don't want to! When your sin is pointed out, you get defensive and even try to use the Bible to justify your sin!
---robin8683 on 8/14/07

>David read ephesians 2 forget the exact verse though

You mean verse 16. Ask yourself which commandments--note the plural--are contained "in ordinances"--again in the plural.

The moral law is based on the moral of love and was placed inside the ark, while the rest of the laws were placed outside as a "testimony".
---David on 8/13/07

Parts of the laws outside the Ark ended when Israel chose king to rule over them, the sacrifical offerings and rules about priests ended when Christ died on the Cross for our sins--i.e., we trangress the moral law of love--when He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven He became our High Priest.
---David on 8/13/07

The Pharisees said they kept the Law of Moses, but they did NOT. Ones can claim to, but wind up making up a lot of things.

They can set up a CONFORMIST, copy-cat thing, NOT doing what the Law says but setting up their own culture.

Like we see denominations doing . . . inventing idiosycratic stuff that no one else has, then saying this is absolutely essential.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/13/07

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AMEN Andrea! What you say about being holy, by the presence of the Lord, is so true. And Linda gave a great scripture for this blog, 2 cor 3. Praise the Lord!
---Christina on 8/13/07

Righteousness has to do with how ONLY God's love is right. While we live in God's love, this love's righteousness makes us more and more loving like God > "as He is, so are we in this world" (in 1 John 4:17).

Loving all people, being in Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:29) > this is what righteousness of God's love includes. So, it's not just a label, or what you do. It's how God's love changes us to become, in sharing with Him.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/13/07

So I say live by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desire of the sinful nature Gal5:16
18 but if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.
---Andrea on 8/13/07

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