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Is Predestination True

Ive joined a bible study group who believe in predestination. My stance is that people have some freedom of will within God's plan. Mostly what I'm looking for is biblical text that supports the ability of man to make choices about anything.

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God will save those who deserve to be saved. Even church leaders will be turned away from Heaven for leading the flock astray. No matter how much they believed in God, they did bad things which had bad fruit, because they were bad trees. God is not going to save such people. The gospel talks of the good trees and the bad trees. Just by believing, you do not become a good tree. You have to be actualize your ability to be good. If you cannot, it is because you like being bad.
---frances008 on 10/10/08

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Romans 6:16: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Yet some say, lend me your ear that I may plug it with straw!
---Nana on 10/8/08

Jesus will choose people who make an effort to please Him. Even people who do not know Jesus personally have a conscience. God will save those who live according to their conscience being kind and courageous and making an effort to help the human race to be better, and humans to be more free and less in the clutch of the devil. God chooses such people for Salvation. The others choose damnation because they hate humanity and want to see death and destruction everywhere.
---frances008 on 10/7/08

I am talking about the civilized world here. If we have access to information, and that information is truth, or if we make a conscious effort to seek the truth we will find it. If there is war going on around you, then much information is not to be trusted. At the moment we have a War on 'Terror' and the normal rules no longer apply to governments and they are now treating us like children who need to be lied to in order to control us. Although we can make choices, they are not of the free will, but are controlled by our spoonfeeding of information which is mainly lies. The truth will set us free. We need the Holy Spirit. God is not unjust and bad choices will be forgiven according to circumstances that prevailed at the time.
---frances008 on 10/7/08

To Whosoever has an ear to hear?

Choice is an illusion of power. It's created between those who have power & those who do not!!!!

All power & authority is held by Christ and comes through us from the drawing, of His Holy Spirit, of us in/to Him. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

...Read Part 2
---Shawn.M.T on 10/7/08

To Whosoever has an ear to hear? ....Continued

2) When we make our own choices we are condemning ourselves, as Adam was warned of in Gen. 2:17 but still did anyway in Gen. 3:5-6. It was and still is the only Choice that we can make and it gives the illusion of Freedom or of Free-Will or even that we are Free. It's the illusion of everything that is the Will of God's Word.

Any choice made is going against God's Will to draw us to Himself and anything against God's Will is a sin. This is our choice "SIN" and since sin is the opposite of God who is real, our choices are an illusion of the Will of God!!!!
---Shawn.M.T on 10/7/08

God knows from the foundation of the world,
whose name is written in The Lambs Book of Life. God also knows whose name is Not written there. As individuals we have to find our place. For your name to be written in The Lambs Book of Life,with a sincere & honost heart to recieve-accept God's Salvation Plan that is found in Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20, & The Whole Lot of God's Word that should be lived up to. Galations 1 v's 8-9. Any other is Matt 15 v 9.
---Lawrence on 10/7/08

Steven, I totally agree with your answer. We as children of God cannot just throw away passage after passage about the Sovereignty of God because we don't understand all the doing of God. On the subject of predestination, it is a problem for many. Let me say first, "Why didn't God choose to save everyone?" The answer simply is, because He got more glory for His name by doing it the way He did. For God does what He does for His glory.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/08

#2. And God somehow, some way, is glorified in what He did, and that's why He did it. God never makes mistake, God is never wrong, so whatever He does fits into His character somehow. And if it's hard for us to understand, that's not God's problem, it is our problem because we just don't have the ability to understand that. God also tell's us, " I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" God really say's that. That provides another problem for us and here is why,
---Mark_V. on 5/20/08

#3. I don't know how God can have no pleasure in the death of the wicked and yet let them die. I don't know how but what I do know is that I trust God, I trust His character, and He is always right and just. In Isaiah 46:10, He turns around and says, "I do all my pleasure" How can we understand that He does all His pleasure and He gets no pleasure by letting the wicked die. So I trust in what He does, even if I don't understand everything.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/08

#4. All men in Adam are born with the sin nature, and because they bear a sin nature, they are all damned to hell. It is our sin in Adam and the nature we bear because of that, that condemns all men to hell. As all men go hell God in His marvelous Grace saves some. The rest are damned, but hear this, " but not simply because of the sin in Adam, but primarily because of the sin of unbelief. John 3 says, "You are condemned already because you" what? believe not"
---Mark_V. on 5/20/08

#5. What people like Eloy do is to distroy half of Scripture. Just throw it away because he doesn't want to understand and by so doing he corrupts the Word of God to his understanding. Everywhere God speaks of what He is going to do, not only to nations but to people. These people have no choice in the matter. What Eloy should be doing is to look for the Truth instead of preaching falsly. We have a duty to work hard in learning.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/08

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. God offers the gift of eternal life to WHOSEVER WILL (Jn 3:16). Those that are lost, are lost because of their own choice, not because God foreordained them to be lost.
---Todd on 5/20/08


I love your blog. It is true to life. "Heres what I believe, now let me find scripture that proves I'M RIGHT." Shouldn't scripture tell us what we believe instead of the other way around?

I'm not upset with you. I just find it frustrating trying to discuss scripture with others who haven't studied, but have their minds made up.

Lord bless you in your studies.
---trey on 5/19/08

Predestination only comes into play after someone has exercised their free will and chose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. All born again Christians are predestined in the New Creation. God does not take away our free will, we always have a choice to follow after Christ or our old sinful nature. Study out all the "LETS" in the Scripture. "LET" tell us that we have a choice.
---Debbie_Jo on 5/19/08

This is probably NOT the verse you're looking for but how about, "It is God Who works in you both to will and to do."

There's also "Whoseover will, let him come."

I don't presume to know how God's sovereignty leaves room for free will--or vice versa.

Who said they were opposed?
---Jack on 5/19/08

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Tom2, you make no sense in what you say. You first say, predestination does not exist, then say it exist with God. What other predestination are we talking about? Second you say, If God came down from heaven and proved to you who he was, you would still have to choose whether to believe or not" How can God prove to you who He is and you don't believe? Hello, Proved, means you believe. So your statment has no meaning.
---Mark_V. on 9/17/07

#2. Tom2: What I think has happened is that you don't believe in predestination but don't have a way of explaining away all of the Scriptures that support it. Somehow it must be wrong but you just don't want to throw away all of the passages, and yet you don't want to except the truth of the Gospel. The good thing is that you have not compromised those passages that support it just because you don't believe in it. That is good.
---Mark_V. on 9/17/07

predestination does not does exist in the mind of God because he knows who will and who wont,we dont.if god came down from heaven and proved to you who he was you would still have to choose to believe what you saw and heard.freewill cancel out the notion of predistination.
---tom2 on 9/8/07

part2, now that being said I do believe God sovereign right to choose his servants ,and to get their attention as he did with paul.
---tom2 on 9/8/07

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Missionsoldier,no we all don't die sinners. The Bible makes it very plain when we come to Christ we die to sin. That from that day on we are to serve God as per Christs example of obedience and sin not. The false teaching of continuing in sin and still get to Heaven is "Believing a lie and being damned". Jesus said be ye holy as I am holy. If we couldn't be holy Christ wouldn't have told us we should be like him,holy. There has to be a change in behavior from worldly to Godly.
---Darlene_1 on 9/8/07

Good one Rita. Also if it is predetermnined that you will die, why bother to work, and if your predetermined to get dirty, why bother to wash? Because it does make a difference to obey the Command to preach the gospel to every creature, for some will accept and get saved, and some will reject and be damned.
---Eloy on 9/8/07

a young lad was throwing starfish back in the ocean that washed up on the beach. Another lad came and said: You are wasteing your time because you will not be able to save them all for there must be hundreds here, at which the young boy answered: Maybe so, but it makes a difference to this one (and he tossed it in the water), and to this one (reaching down he picked up another one and tossed it in the water). So the other lad joined him, and together they started saving the starfish one-by-one.
---Eloy on 9/8/07

? is IF it is already predetermined who will believe and who will not then why bother
1Cor.1:18 by the foolishness of preaching
bringing home the lost sheep
read Rm.9:15-23 why do you reply AGIANST GOD
it is God who shows mercy
read Rm.8:28-39
there is NO IF in predistination
---steven-rem7000 on 9/8/07

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There is only one God, the Maker, Preserver, Ruler, whom Predestinates all things without exception, having in Himself all perfections, and being infinite in them all. To Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence, worship, and obedience.

It is the purpose of God in redemption to glorify Himself in the salvation of sinners, based on Christs merit alone.
---steven-rem7000 on 9/8/07

IF it is already predetermined who will believe and who will not then why bother
a. sending missionaries
b. hiring a pastor
c. requesting help in Sunday school and
Youth Group
d. witnessing to friends and family

etc. etc. etc.
---RitaH on 9/8/07

Have you ever noticed that those who believe in predestination invariably consider themselves in the "saved" pile rather than in the "rejected" pile? Random chance would suggest that at least some of them should be lost.

Act 10:34 "God is no respecter of persons:"

They confuse foreknowledge and original intent with what we call predestination. God intended that we all make it, but He gave us the final choice, and He already knows how WE will choose.
---jerry6593 on 9/8/07

IF it is already predetermined who will believe and who will not then why bother believing in Jesus?

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. If it is His will that none should perish (be separated from Him by sin) He could have kept Adam and Eve from sinning? They had a choice (free will) just like we do. If that is not the case then God planned on them and some of us dieing and being separated from Him.
---denna7667 on 9/7/07

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Man deserve death, no one deserves mercy. When God through grace saves someone, they complain why He didn't save all. They are not happy in God saving them, they want God to save all. Is God obligated to save all those that hate Him? Is He unjust because He gives live to some and not to all? That is really the question. Man thinks he deserves mercy. God is the only one that can draw you to Himself. " Who can say, "I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" proverbs 20:9.
---mark on 8/27/07

another doctrine that we'll be arguing in heaven

LORD! why didn't you make it clear - maybe it isn't important - your saved and He'll let you know if He chose you.

there are many many scriptures that say pre-
and then Eve obviously expressed her freewill.
---Andrea on 8/25/07

Don't go to the website, the website is from man. Go to the Word of God and read how many times God tell's us, He chose us:
1. "Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of His own purpose..
2. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you.."
3. "God choose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise.."
4. "God chose you from the beginning to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
---mark on 8/25/07

#2. Here is what God has to say about all this. "For we know, (that means we acknowledge it to be true) brethren beloved by God, that He has chosen you, for our gospel came to you not only in word, but in power (the word goes to many without the power when its only a word) and in the Holy Spirit (which means it go out many times without the Holy Spirit) and with full conviction" When it comes with power it comes with a full conviction.
---mark on 8/25/07

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#3. All this Christians who are the beloved, know that God has chosen them because the Gospel they heard came to them in the power of the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. To the others of course it did not come with the power of the Holy Spirit and conviction. To the beloved, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake."
---mark on 8/25/07

God offers his salvation to all but He does know who will choose him or reject him.
---Patti on 8/24/07

1. Adam had free will and lost it (he was not decieved) as all born in Adam are born in sin, seperation from God and debtors to God's law.

Man's free will at its height Rm.3:10-20
man's will is governed by his state.
he is either in a state of comdenation and wrath,spiritually dead or

in a state of justification and life,made alive by the power of God.Jn.1:12-13,Rm.9:16-17,Eph.2:1,4-6
man always has wanted a part in salvation trying to still God's glory. Isa.42:8
---steven-rem7000 on 8/12/07

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved" First He choose us in Him, second to be holy and without blame, that was through the blood of Christ, Third, had predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself.
---mark on 8/8/07

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#2. According to What? According to the good pleasure of His will. Who's will? God's. How? by His grace by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Not only did He choose us, but "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him." Without God giving you the Spirit so that you can understand and know Him, you will forever be lost. The eyes of your understanding being enlighten,
---mark on 8/8/07

#3. That you may know what is the hope of His calling," He has to give you enlightment in order that you know what is the hope, the reason why He called you. Otherwise you know nothing. "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins," without God bringing you alive you will remain dead in your trespasses and sins where you once walked. "in which you once walked according to the course of this world,
---mark on 8/8/07

#4, according to the prince and power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Those are the lost that follow their father the devil, in which we once walked. "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ(by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
---mark on 8/8/07

#5. If this is not an act solely of God, then you might as well throw them in the toilet. Throw all the passages that teach the Sovereign power of God. Who give's mercy, grace, faith, God. Who make's you alive to Christ? God. Who give's you the understanding? God the Spirit. Who give's you the eyes to see? God. The answer to all, is God. Without God you are doomed for all eternity. Stop taking credit for God's actions, you deserve only death. Nothing else.
---mark on 8/8/07

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Bryan ... You instruct us to listen to your story.
But have you ever thought of listenig to what others have experienced.
".... is not debatable" is the sign of a cultist.
They are your words ... and you of course KNOW that you cannot be wrong. That is dangerous for you and for those who hang on your words
---alan_of_UK on 8/8/07

1) Note these scripture from Romans...God is always referred to as the "Potter" and in these scriptures, it clearly states that God (the potter) makes some vessels (people) for His glory to be made manifest and some for His wrath to be displayed.

Romans 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this?
---Holly4jc on 8/8/07

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
---Holly4jc on 8/8/07

predestination is not debatable, it's God's sovereignty on display. but if it's hard to grasp, then just think about your own salvation. for me, i can tell you that neither was i looking or listening for God when i first believed. he just whacked me upside the head. being born again is sort of like being born the first time--nobody consults you on the matter.
---bryan_shaw on 8/7/07

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Go to an online bible website. Search for the words choose, decide, listen (or hearken for old KJV) and choice (don't search for choice in KJV either).
You'll be surprised how many times they appear in the bible. In the NIV, the word choose, listen and choice appear in at least 321 verses, out of which a very small handful speak about God making choices, the rest, probably more than 90%, speak of choices man makes.
---OK on 8/7/07

I believe predestination to be correct. It is definitely predestination in God's mimd. However God has not made me or you privy to who is, or who is not to be saved. Therefore I witness to all that I have a chance to witness too. I sometimes take a talking too, and so I assume these people are not the saved. Yet it did not hurt them to hear the message.
---Mima on 8/7/07

Nana, watch and pray, is but one of many passages that are given to Christians for rightful living. Proves Christians can fall into tempation. also advices to watch out for things that can lead one to tempation. There are many instances where the tempation is so hidden we do not see it till we are deep in sin. Those passages help us to watch out not only for the enemy, but for our flesh who demands a lot from us. The flesh is weak, Taming it is a big job the Spirit.
---mark on 8/7/07

If Predestination be true, why then do we watch and pray?
Mark 14:38: "Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak."
---Nana on 8/7/07

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And on the subject of the "Elect". Was Peter of them? He sure
tought so! Luke 12:40: "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?"
---Nana on 8/7/07

David, the Church was predestined / foreordained from the foundation of the world. When reading Ephesians, Paul is talking to the Church, the Body of Christ as a whole. Those who put their faith in Christ are predestined to be conformed to His image. Yes, it's to whosoever will. John 3:14-17 says exactly what it says. No one needs a PhD to understand, as God isn't looking for PhDs, but repentant sinners who put their faith in Him. It's about resurrection, not election!!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/7/07

There are two paths in life, the narrow way of righteousness and the broad way of sin, and going to heaven or going to hell is a choice that each soul makes for themself. Please Read- Deuteronomy 30:19, Job 23:10-12, Psalm 32, 51, 119:101-104, Ezekiel 18:30-32, 33:11,20, Matthew 7:19,21,24-27, 25:31-46, Mark 12:29-34, Romans 6:12,13,16, 10:9-13, II Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 3:7-19, 4:1,2, James 1:22, 2:14-26.
---Eloy on 8/6/07

Phil, you are right. God does choose us we do not choose Him. God knew before the world was created who would recieve Him and who would not. The question is when God calls you will you recieve Him or reject Him.
---Cynthia on 8/6/07

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This is a doctrine that has divided denominations for 2000 years. Its a good thing to learn about and let God minister His wisdom, I'd learn what they believe and then see what fruit it bears. Obviously Adam and Eve had free will, they started the whole thing. Yet God knew they would sin and had in place a way of salvation. And thats a whole new doctrine............geez it never ends.
---Andrea on 8/6/07

Both Predestination and Election are valid Christian doctrines. God chooses you. You don't chose God. God offers his Grace and that offer is irresistible. Mankind also has free will but the exercise of free will is being in a state of rebellion against God. You must want to renounce free will and accept God's plan for you life or you will never be offered salvation. God knows who will accept him and who will reject him and only offers the gift of salvation to those he knew in advance would accept him.
---Phil_the_Elder on 8/6/07

Lazarus was unable to respond to Christ's command and rise from the dead of his own free will. "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day.-(John 6:44). This is why we are described as being "dead" in our sins (Eph 2:1-5). The dead have no will to choose anything.
---Jim on 8/6/07

We all die sinners. If all that are to be saved are written in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the earth. That would mean that those that are not going to be saved are not written in the book before the foundation of the earth. So if GOD knew that they were not in the book and were not going to be saved before they were born and yet he let them be born would that not mean that he created them to go to hell? sounds logical to me. Eph 1:4 ,Rev 21:27, Rev 20:15
---Missionsoldier on 8/6/07

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Jesus died for the sins of all and in so doing He predestinated that all humankind shall have acccess to salvation. That doesn't mean each person is predestinated to either die a sinner or a saint. This still leaves man's free will to accept or refuse what God has prepared for them through Jesus.
---Darlene_1 on 8/6/07

Men's "free will" plays a big role in choosing to believe God. Thereafter man's free will is so overwhelmed by God's love that man can never escape from it and so that love creates what we know as eternal security!!!!
---Mima on 8/6/07

So you think that GOD's plan of Jesus being crucified could have been undone if they had just chosen to not crucify Christ.Boy if that were to have happened all christians would be screwed right now. If your GOD is that weak you might just as well worship a cow. Mines not.
---Missionsoldier on 8/6/07

If forget what scripture it is, I know it's in the O.T. where God says "I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing - you choose".
---Leslie on 8/4/07

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David, read Ephesians chapter 1: 3-14 and see what you think the Holy Spirit is speaking through Paul to us. God bless.
---Cynthia on 8/4/07

No scripture tells me man *of his own self* can choose what is right > "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5) Paul says he labors "according to His working which works in me mightily" (in Colossians 1:29) Paul knew, I understand and offer, what his chances were of choosing what is really right, if he did ANYTHING outside what was "according to His working" (((O::}
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/4/07

I'm looking through my Strong's references for the word "choose". MANY show that it is **God** choosing . . . choosing whom, or where to do something > choosing specific DETAILS.

IN Joshua 24:15 > "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" > choosing to serve God would include doing what **He** chooses for details, I would consider.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/4/07

The invitation "Come unto Me, and I will ..." proves that Jesus allows us to come to Him by choice.
---alan_of_UK on 8/4/07

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Do you mean a man has the ability to make a choice without ANY influence by God or by Satan?

If man is free from God so he is free to make his own choice, is he not SEPARATE from God??

DO you want scripture to support that you are separate from God, enough to make choices without Him???
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/4/07

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16. Anyone who believes that we are predestined to believe in Him must also accept that God predestined all others to go to Hell. I don't.
---RitaH on 8/4/07

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