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What Is A Fundamentalist

Why does one either have to be a Christian Fundamentalist or a Christian Liberal? Why can't one be just a Christian?

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 ---Ed on 8/11/07
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MikeM you are a class act. Always entertianing if totally off the dial!

I have enjoyed exposing your false beliefs & reasoning however I have to bail for 2 months as I will be travelling in France.

I trust others will continue to confront your anti-Christian ramblings.
---Warwick on 8/25/07


MikeM the Humanist society is an atheistic organization which claims there is no God nor no need of God as everything is the result of long-ages & evolution.

They believe there is no such thing as objective truth & morality is decided by man.

A man of your claimed education should know this & that humanism is the basis for most university courses world-wide. These courses being presented with this bias. Information you have uncritically accepted to your cost.
---Warwick on 8/25/07


1.Humanistic education is a vague term, to fundamentalist it means all education outside of scripture. By stating a priori that literal Genesis, as his personal (and very subjective) paradigm is alone true he is clearly offering a conviction faith based belief,-therefore most clearly non science. Bible believers have nothing to fear from true science, true science meaning of the idiosyncratic science according to, by-and-of-and-for- fundamentalist.

---MikeM on 8/25/07


2.Long-ages evolutionary ideas Any view not fundamentalist is defined as evolutionist, as all religion not fundamentalist are defined as cult. Language loading.
In my circle of friends. On the web are Bible believers in a geocentric universe,with well lettered names. Lettered scientist can be found with racist dogmas, and those who say science supports alien abduction, or hollow earth, the point is mute. 'Experts' can be found to support anything.
---MikeM on 8/25/07


3.My religion is irrelevant. Sola-Scripture, unique to fundamentalist is a closed system-all wrong but us. Myopia and science do not mix.

I accept intelligent design, coined by a devout RCC scientist, (Dr Behe) so the point is mute.

"Wolf in the fold"-classic ad hominum fallacy.

A field of glacial loess at the base of an old glacier can be studied with a variety of devices to learn about its development, origin. It will not be altered by any rhetorical device.
---MikeM on 8/25/07




1
MikeM received a humanistic education which accepts long-ages & evolution as given facts. Having accepted this lie, which is contrary to Scripture, he( & others)is forced to reinterpret Scripture to conform to these false beliefs.

He is right we Bible believers have nothing to fear from true science, rather the opposite.

Long-ages evolutionary ideas are not found in Scripture & not supported by operaional science. It is a belief about the past which has no proof.
---Warwick on 8/24/07


2
MikeM continues to push the view that only fools believe in Genesis creation.

In my circle of friends I count numerous scientists working in a variety of scientific disciplines who believe God created in 6-days & only thousands of years ago.

MikeM is LDS therefore not Sola-Scripture- Bible alone -indoctrinated both by errant LDS teaching & evolution based university teaching.

As Bible believing Christians we should know he is by his own admission a wolf in the fold.
---Warwick on 8/24/07


OK

Let's agree to disagree. Let's not come to blows over it with the risk of the negative result that we forget the important things we both believe in such as original sin (Adam and Eve).

God bless.
---Ed on 8/24/07


A literal interpretation of scripture demands that one disavow objective reality and replace it with a subjective standerd. This is known as cognitive dissonance. To say the earth is only 10,000 years old is an undertaking in acute ignorance, or cognitive dissonance. True faith has no fear of objective reality or the study of science. I constantly make the point, NOT ONE of the professors I knew who taught evolution at the university level was an atheist.
---MikeM on 8/24/07


Ed, you can go on from now till forever about romance mystic and what not. But I'll call a spade a spade and not explain away hard-to-believe, requiring deep-insight truth with easire logical resolutions. There are certain truths that will continue, for a while, to seem foolish to the eyes of men, one of which is that literal creation.
---OK on 8/24/07




Forget about it Alan. :) There's light at the end of the tunnel. Peace!
---Leon on 8/24/07


Leon ...Perhaps you can enlighten all of us of the contents of my poststhat the Moderator did not publish?
No, you can't, because he has published them all.
---alan_of_UK on 8/23/07


1. OK

The thing that i think puts some people off religion is that they think that Christians are primitives with flat-world views of the world and so on.

We might be romantics and mystics (in that we believe in miracles and love, enjoy poetry and song, and so on) but we are not simpletons. We also love the beauty of science, or rather the logical beauty of the universe, and so on.

There is romance and mystery to the universe too.
---Ed on 8/23/07


2. OK

And that is why the literal interpretation takes away from this. And it also dilutes, somewhat, in my view, the true message of The Opening Chapter, in particular, the nature of original sin, and our complete dependence on God.
---Ed on 8/23/07


Moderator: Thanks for not posting (running) "Alan's choo choo" on this blog. :)
---Leon on 8/22/07


Ed, I believe, and, in fact, I know, that God literally created the world in all of its inctricate complication and majestic splendor without the long evolutionary process inferred by science. However, despite the fact that I see a deep importance in understanding this hidden truth, I also realise that differences in opinion regarding the way God created the world, as far as evolution versus literal creation is concerned, is not important enough to negate true Christianity.
---OK on 8/22/07


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2) The necessary fundamentals of Christianity are therefore limited to virgin birth, ressurection, and other more important beliefs.
---OK on 8/22/07


OK Alan I understand.
---Warwick on 8/21/07


Mark_B: The repentant thief likely knew nothing about Jesus' virgin birth. Yet it's apparent he, "by faith", was saved.

Without the virgin birth, would Jesus have been the Son of God or just the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier afterall? Apart from God laying His foundation, Jesus would've been an altogether different person -- "just another good man". If so, would there have been an Apostle Paul to make the Romans 10:9 "faith" statement? No!
---Leon on 8/21/07


OK

'the virgin birth' - but there are lots of Christians who believe entirely in the virgin birth, and who also believe entirely in evolution (with God as the spark the started off life and the universe).

When it comes to believing in miracles the evolutionary theory shows just how miraculous the nature of creation is. I think the literal interpretation of Creation actually diminishes the true sophistication, wonder, beauty and majesty of creation (as do many others).
---Ed on 8/21/07


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Warwick ... I never suggested that you did make that accusation.
But others have. Both MikeM and I and others have been accused of atheistic views when expressing doubts about the 144 hour creation.
I was just using your quote about the black dogs to point out the faulty logic used by them.
---alan_of_UK on 8/21/07


#2. Ed: When a person comes to Christ, and began's that relationship with Him, it is something so knew and wonderful, that you want to tell the whole world. It is seen in many people so I answered you because of that reason. Please continue without me as I had said before, we could move on. I don't want to go to a point that will bring you to sin. It is also your choice to answer if you want or not. Thanks for your opinions. Peace
---mark on 8/20/07


Ed, please agnore this #2 message to you. I will move on and you have a great day in the Lord, thanks again for your opinions. Going to leave this one for it has denominations written all over it. Not good to answer those blogs.
---mark on 8/20/07


Ed, you go ahead and be just a Christian!

However, for the sake of the policitcs that has creeped into Christendom, I will define "fundamentalism" and "liberalism" a bit. It is impossible to precisely define these terms because they are defined differently by different Christians.
---OK on 8/20/07


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2) But mostly, fundamentalists are said to believe in scientifically "ridiculous" Christian theories such as the virgin birth, creation not evolution, a young earth, absolute inerrancy of scriptures, bodily ressurection of Christ, authenticity of Christ's recorded miracles, 2nd coming of Christ before millenial reign. "liberals" on the other hand make a compromise or union between fundamentalist views and more "realistic", scientific stands.
---OK on 8/20/07


3) (If this is the case, I am a fundamentalist... and "liberals" are illiterate of truth.)
---OK on 8/20/07


AlanofUK- you have lost me. Where did I suggest that Christians who don't accept 6-day creation are atheists?

I don't recall writing such a foolish thing as I don't believe that to be true.

I do however wonder why any Christian, a follower of Christ, would reinterpret His clear Words in Genesis. He says a day is composed of eevening & morning which is only true of a 24hr day, & i believe Him. Why don't you?
---Warwick on 8/20/07


Leon...i believe in those foundations, but do you really have to believe in those 3 foundations to be saved...my bible says romans 10:9
..."9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

nothing in there about virgin birth??
---mark_B. on 8/20/07


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Warwick ... Not all who don't believe in 144 hour Creation are atheists.
The majority of Christians do not beleive in 144 hour Creation, and they are not athiests!.
What's more most non-Christians are not atheists. Animists Sikhs and tree-huggers are not atheist, although they believe in different kinds of god, whom we don't recognise.
Atheist means someone who does not believe in ANY god. "Creation" is quite irrelevant to the issue.
---alan_of_UK on 8/20/07


I agree Ed. Many (hopefully not all) so called Christian liberals (Cls) don't believe the 3 fundamentals you've listed. Also, they deny Christ's virgin birth, his death on the cross, his burial & specifically his resurrection. These are all core Bible fundamentals vitally essential to the Christian faith. The Cl attitude is quite often "yeah but" or "surely you can't believe that?".

Bottomline - To be a Christian, one must believe the fundamentals of Biblical-Christianity.
---Leon on 8/20/07


Leon

Many 'fundamentalists' call themselves 'fundamentalists' because they believe they have the truth of the fundamentals of what it is to be a Christian.

So let's agree what the fundamentals of being a Christian are:

I believe they are:

1. Believe and worship the Trinity
2. Believe that Jesus died for our salvation
3. Jesus' two main commandments of love God and love neighbour.

These are fundamentals for most denominations / Churches I can think of.
---Ed on 8/20/07


2. Leon

Why do 'fundamentalists' have a monopoly over other others to call themselves 'fundamentalists.'?
---Ed on 8/20/07


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greetings.Christian religionists maintain that uniformity is required in it's structure-One must believe in addition to the saving truth as the leader of it believes.Unity -the good and goal of the gospel is overshadowed by dominational road blocks in that one must conform before entrance permitted.Sectarianism prevents unity.
---earl on 8/19/07


AlanofUK sorry but I don't understand what you have written.

Atheists don't believe in 144 hr creation? They don't believe in supernatural creation at all, by definition. Pleasse explain.
---Warwick on 8/19/07


MikeM I find it really difficult to follow what you say when you link evangelicals and fundamentalists with political parties. I know nothing of your political system being in England but can tell you that over here you will get all persuasions in all parties. Do you find in U.S. that the majority in any particular party share their Christian/religious beliefs also?
---RitaH on 8/19/07


Liberal is too nebulous here you pin down theologically. A bad liberal to me is a statism Liberal big government intrusion, leftist. A good liberal means belief in free speech, press etc, in general, open minded. Liberal to fundamentalist is a different matter one of many words they have usurped, Cult, evolutionist, and even Bible verses lifted lifted, given idiosyncratic meanings known only to them.



I try not to think, but sometimes it happens 'let us renew our minds' it says somewhere
---MikeM on 8/19/07


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No I have not jumpped track: I was pointing out the stipidity of saying
"A black dog bit me so all black dogs are savage"
or "Some who are not convinced by the 144 hour Creation are atheist, so all those who think He may have taken longer must be atheist"
Or, even "Some who run drugs vote republican, so all republicans are drug-runners"
None of those statements is true, yet similar are often made here.
---alan_of_UK on 8/19/07


Okay Alan, you think. Good! :)

I believe MikeM is trying real hard to tell us he thinks too. How nice.

Warwick: I agree wholeheartedly with your 8/18 post. Also, "I think" Alan's cho cho train just jumped track.
---Leon on 8/18/07


MikeM,
Don't let Fallwell et al steel Fundamentalism. Look up the Niagra Confrance of 1910. That confrance out-lined clasical fundamentalism. Trust me, they may not have danced, but the didn't goose step.
---Gilbert on 8/18/07


Or, Warwick ... Some who are not convinced by the 144 hour Creation are atheist, so all those who think He may have taken longer must be atheist.
---alan_of_UK on 8/18/07


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When I think of broad spectrum I think of evangelicals, whom I strongly disagree with, but have no moral issue with. I would rather have, and do have an evangical neighbor than most anything else. There is a demarcation between fundamentalist and evangicals. Evangelicals may be on the left or right, demo-or republican, or something else. They may allow dancing or not, I dont know. When I think of fundamentalist I think of only one dance, the goose-step. Look up the term in Websters dictionary.
---MikeM on 8/18/07


Leon ... Ye I think it is a bit of a stretch to apply the definition ""persons who butt against & tenaciously seek to destroy what the Bible says" to liberals.
This is NOT a biblical definition of a 20th century polictical party.
I might just as well apply it to the Republican party because certain elements in that party appear to disagree with Jesus' command to feed the hungry
---alan_of_UK on 8/18/07


"I am a fundamentalist, and I am not a leagalist. I live by Faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Not by a set of rules. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed"
---Cynthia 8/17/07
Are you saying the Son set you free from obedience (lest you be a legalist?) My Bible says He set us free from sin. We are overcomers in Christs name, overcoming sin in our lives by being obedient to the law of God. "Being made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" Romans 6:18
---Gina7 on 8/18/07


Faith cannot be separated from works.

*Works without faith is legalism. Ephes 2:8,9

*Faith without works is the devils' faith,as he has a belief in God but does not follow nor obey him "Thou believest that there is 1 God:thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble" James 2:19 "Faith without works is dead" v.20

*Faith with works is the Faith that will justify us "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only" James 2:24
---Gina7 on 8/18/07


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*Faith with works is the Faith that will justify us "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only" James 2:24

Faith with works means obeying God,and following all 10 commandments. It is not legalism. Legalism is following the 10 commandments in order to be saved,without any faith in God. James chapter 2 makes it clear that faith alone is dead, faith alone is the devils' faith, faith alone is being disobedient to God,and not keeping the commandments.
---Gina7 on 8/18/07


To teach faith without obedience to God and his commandments is to teach dead faith, worthless faith, faith no better than the devils angels faith. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" James 2:24. Notice this is NOT saying a man is jusified by works (obedience to the law) only. It is saying that faith combined with works justifies us.
---Gina7 on 8/18/07


Notice this is NOT saying a man is justified by works (obedience to the law) only. It is saying that faith combined with works justifies us. So when we say that by Faith are we saved, it is not by works, lest anyone should boast, it must be remembered that that Faith is one not separated from works.

* Obeying the law only is incorrect
* Belief in God only without obedience is the devils faith, and is incorrect
* Faith combined with obedience is correct James 2:24
---Gina7 on 8/18/07


"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:21-22

Abraham's obedience (works) combined with his faith, counted him righteous. Not faith only! Read the book of James! This is the BIBLE speaking,and it completely does away with the false "Faith Only" doctrine. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone" James 2:17
---Gina7 on 8/18/07


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The term "Christian Fundamentalist" was originally coined to refer to someone who believes in Christian fundamentals: Divine creation, virgin birth, resurrection of the body, sacrificial atonement, the second coming.

In recent years, the word "Fundamentalist" has been co-opted by the media to refer to fanatical adherents of any religion, so "Christian Fundamentalist" generally refers to a member of the extreme religious right.
---Mark on 8/18/07


MikeM as I see it your description of fundamentalist is somewhat like this example: A black dog bit me so all black dogs are savage.

A fundamentalist is a person who adheres to the fundamental truths of Scripture. Therefore all Christians are fundamentalists but there is a broad range of beliefs & attitudes within Christianity. I am quite sure there are many Christians who are like the fundamentalists you deride, but we aren't all like that. I hope!
---Warwick on 8/18/07


3. Mark

'When you get that life, that life never dies. Never' - that is a falsehood. I am sorry to use strong language. Please read my other blog. And i have given you many, many quotations in the past where we must carry out God's will and where salvation can be lost. But it seems that you just don't bother to read them.
---Ed on 8/18/07


Joseph Smith - legalist
EGW- ditto

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "fundamentalism" as "a usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

if you follow your faith fully your probably a fundamentalist

I defend a person's right to be who they are - Christ did not force faith on anyone
---Andrea on 8/18/07


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MikeM, I am a fundamentalist, and I am not a leagalist. I live by Faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Not by a set of rules. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.
---Cynthia on 8/17/07


Honey don't listen to these religious nuts. You only have to be a Christian. No labels needed and neither do you need a denomination. You must be born again according to the Word of God. Join a good bible teaching church and be baptized (full immmersion). From that point, continue to grow and mature by loving God with all of your heart ,and love others as you love yourself. Keep trusting God and not man. You will do alright. Read St John chap 3, Romans chap 10:9,10. Matt chap 22:37-40.
---Robyn on 8/17/07


Evangicals, Billy Graham, amie simple pherson(1920's).-laize faire

Fundamentalist, Randell Terry, Pat Robertson, hal Lindsay.-legalistic
---MikeM on 8/17/07


Alan, #2: "Where did you find that definition of 'liberal'?" Not in a dictionary, a more accurate source, i.e., the Bible. Yes, the word "liberal" (generous) is in the Bible a few times. But, my attention wasn't on the word. Instead, my focus was on the open-minded religious folk who Jesus quite often called hypocrites because they liberally corrupted the teaching of God's word while professing to be something they weren't.

A bit of a stretch? I think not! :)
---Leon on 8/16/07


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Mary - of course I have a problem with the war - would we have lost more lives if we were not in AFaghanistan & Iraq - I just do not know!

Do I trust the Republicans - NO!
Do I even trust them to be pro-life -NO!
but with what I do know I have no other choice but to stand against a platform that stands against God!
---Andrea on 8/16/07


Alan, #1: I think I now understand your stand. Thanks for your patience.

First, let me say, I meant you no offense. Rather than suppose, I asked to be sure I understood your position. You seem to have indicated you don't think it's okay. Good! :)

The dictionary definitions you gave are right on target regarding secular politics & personal free thought (open/broad-mindedness, tolerance, unbigotedness, liberalism).
---Leon on 8/16/07


It used to be more independent but in the past decade a major change took place and these 'platforms' are announced so that people can vote for a set of issues and all canidates are expected to support this platform - of course in their district like LA a anti-gay marriage canidate could not get elected so it does vary. But I'd think over 90% of canidates represent their parties platform.

Do you others agree?
---Andrea on 8/16/07


I dunno leon...there can be good constructive critisicm especially if your doing critical research in a constructive way...how about...i dunno i got nothing but when i do i'll be sure to post it
---mark_B. on 8/15/07


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I am a Fundamental Christian. I am a member of an independant Baptist Church, and I believe that the word of God is exactly what He means, in other words..God says what He means and means what He says. Literally!
---Cynthia on 8/15/07


Andrea ... In the UK, Christians do not give a hoot about those of other Christians, (although they may try to influence them) because the issues of gayness and abortion are not polarised between the parties to the same axtent as you seem to say they are in the USA.
There are gays and supporters of abortion in all our parties, and from what I read in our international news, the same applies in the US with both represnted in both your main parties
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07


Andrea ... Your words "Democrats are the liberals they support abortion, gay marriage, and just about anything the Christians don't." indicate an extremism which you probably don't hold.
Because your words imply that whereas Liberals or Democrats support help for the inadequate and needy in society, Christians (to use your words) don't give a hoot about them.
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07


Leon ... In a political context, my dictionary gives the following definition: "favourable to political reform and abolition of privileges" A further relevant definition is "open-minded, unprejudiced"
I suspect that your Websters will give a similar definition, far away from the definition you gave us.
Thank you for the courtesy in your reply, which seems to be omitted from Andrea's response.
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07


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Leon You ask me ... "Because you may not have met any like that, does that make it okay?"
I assume you meant like "persons who butt against & tenaciously seek to destroy what the Bible says".
I am surprised, and I must admit a bit offended, that you would think I thought that was OK.
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07


Hi Andrea, I too, am against abortion (except in certain instances, and then I feel GOD is the Judge, not us and we have ALL sinned). But no one has yet been able to explain to me how the President that has cost countless American and Iraqi lives is a "pro-life" example of godliness. Also not being able to admit he's wrong doesn't seem godly to me.
---Mary on 8/15/07


"The person who has a true personal relationship with God knows everything for he has given the knowledge of the universe freely to all men and women who ask. ,)"

So, this person knows how to make a very good meal that is healthy, fixes computers, master programmer, and fixes auto engines and details the bodies on the side? I doubt it.
---David on 8/15/07


alan - are you from the UK. Bc in the USA the Democrats are the liberals they support abortion, gay marriage, and just about anything the Christians don't.

I don't give a hoot what your politics are - its about life and an anti-christian agenda
---Andrea on 8/15/07


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Alan: Yes, I do understand your question. Thank you. :)

Please, I need to know where you're coming from before I can objectively answer your question.

What is the meaning of liberal in the UK? Because you may not have met any like that, does that make it okay?
---Leon on 8/15/07


Leon ... My reply has not been published.
It is in no way offensive, just gently explanatory of my understanding.
I assume it is too mild and reasonable, so does not merit publishing
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07


Mark_B: How about "constructive criticism"? Is that an oxymoron?

Regarding "jumbo shrimp", let's agree to disagree. :)
---Leon on 8/15/07


Steveng, you've misquoted James. Also, in 1st Cor. 13:12 Paul states that he "knows in part" not all. P.S. what does that have to do with Fundamentalism?
---Gilbert on 8/15/07


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MikeM, all the evangelicals that I know are definitely fundamentalists. From where do you get the idea that the two do not go together? Perhaps if you give us your definition of 'fundamentalist' and 'evangelical' your reasoning might become clearer.
---RitaH on 8/15/07


Leon ... Thank you for your comprehensive answer to my question. But I still don't know where you got that definition.
You aksk me whta is wrong with it ... Well, there may be some liberals who are like that, but I have never met any.
But perhaps the meaning of liberal is different in your country
---alan_of_UK on 8/15/07


David: "No one knows everything--the one's you have to watch out for are those who talk as if they already do.

The person who has a true personal relationship with God knows everything for he has given the knowledge of the universe freely to all men and women who ask. ,)

Unfortunately, only a handfull of people in the world truly have a wonderful personal relationhsip with Him. Why?
---Steveng on 8/14/07


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