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Works Versus Grace

Works versus Grace? Is it sin to try to be good enough. I'm pentecostal and once in awhile I get scared that I'm not good enough. It passes but I'm wondering - is it conviction or oppression?

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 ---Andrea on 9/1/07
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.markb, you speak falsehood because there is no light in you, and you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 9/30/07


Rom 7:15...but what I hate, that do I.
7:16...
7:17...sin that dwelleth in me.:18For I know that in me...dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, ...7:19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.7:20....but sin that dwelleth in me.


Rom 7:21....evil is present with me.


7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Rom 7:23 ..another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, ....
---Andrea on 9/29/07


Eloy, we do have sinful natures even as christians but through jesus we are able to conqure them, thats the differnce christians and non-christians...
---mark_B. on 9/29/07


Eloy,

You distort scripture. Read Romans 5:1, Romans 4:3. Read the book of 1 John. You have sinned in your anger. We are saved by faith not works. Read 2 Cor 12:21. Christians will produce fruit as they walk in the Spirit. True faith produces works befitting salvation. If you put faith in your ability to do good you are not operating in true faith. Do not speak until you get the truth.
---Chris on 9/29/07


Psalms 119:21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments. (KJV)

Psalms 138:6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off. (KJV)

Ecclesiastes 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit. (KJV)

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. (KJV)
---denna7667 on 9/28/07




its ok - matt la - I didn't take it wrong I just wanted to clarify
---Andrea on 9/27/07


.andrea, the people you fellowship with are not as you so-called Christians and neither can you be if you indeed have a sinful nature. Born-again Christians are made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and we have sinless natures, rather than sinful natures, this is what distinguishes those of God apart from those that are not of God. It may be that you have only religion, rather than Christ, and if so then you will not have Christ's nature but only dead religion.
---Eloy on 9/27/07


Andrea, I never said you live a wicked life. I'm just passing the truth of the Word to you.
---Matthew_from_LA on 9/27/07


matt - my lifestyle is not wicked.

the question was not about willful sin it was about trying to be good for the wrong reasons.
---Andrea on 9/27/07


1of2 -Eloy - I fellowship with dozens of Christians that have consciences and diligently seek God's face. We are all aware of our weaknesses and our sinful natures.
Actually Eloy - in any month (s) I would pass as sinless to the outward man. I'm old the things that at one time concerned me - no longer a problem, but thru the process of getting here - I know I have a sinful nature. I am no more or less sinful then 20 years ago. Its just easier to maintain this daily walk.
---Andrea on 9/27/07




2/2
If a person were put in a prison so they could not steal or kill would they be more or less sinful then if they were free?

or is Christ their sinlessness?
---Andrea on 9/27/07


Andrea, if there are sins in your life that you have not repented of then it is conviction. If you are staying clear of wickedness then it is oppression. We can't live a wicked lifestyle and make it to heaven. God will not save someone who chooses to do the works of the Devil, it's an insult of God's grace. Grace calls you to follow God not follow the Devil. Those who follow the flesh mind the things of the flesh and they have carnal minds, and carnal minds are enmity against God.
---Matthew_from_LA on 9/27/07


2)
It has nothing to do with being "good enough" because you will never be good enough. It has everything to do with believing/following God and God told us to depart from wickedness and repent. DOn't be deceived by those who believe you can follow the flesh and the Spirit at the same time. Getting drunk every week and not repenting of it and being saved is an insult to God. Such people are only fooling themselves.
---Matthew_from_LA on 9/27/07


Andrea, it is good that your coscience still bothers you, that shows that you care, for if your conscience did not bother you anymore then that would mean that you have become hardened against the Holy Spirits conviction. Please Read- Ephesians 4:17-19+ I Timothy 4:1,2+ Hebrews 3:7-4:2.
---Eloy on 9/27/07


Eloy,

I has also correted you in the fact that you are no different than any man who walks the face of the earth. You are a sinner and you sin daily.

You can try to interpret scriture to fit what you want it so say. You are too prideful to admit that you sin. I will again pray for Holy Spirit intervention in your life.
---denna7667 on 9/26/07


Eloy,

This is very simple and straight forward, and NOT out of context. James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

If you have faith you will have works. I have both. I compare scripture with scripture.
---denna7667 on 9/26/07


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Chris:: I believe Righteousness is the grace of God.Faith is your belief,in His ability to bestow that grace.Salvation is the accomplishment by way of a Reward in achievieing His requirement of Perfection "nothing defiled enters heaven"Works is striving to do His will on Earth.Sin is the ingredient detestful to God, which debars you from grace and entering Heaven.We strive for that perfection in our walk from Life in Jesus or death to our divine creator by sin using the talents God gives us.
---Emcee on 9/26/07


.chris, since I am a born-again Christian, I am not able to receive your falsehood. Only Jesus is my Lord whom talks to me and shows me what to do, and he leads me and I follow him, because I know him and he knows me. But strangers I do not follow because strangers I do not know, and neither do they know me nor him whom has sent me.
---Eloy on 9/27/07


.chris, you sin in dissing me with your mouth because you are not of my body, and neither have you any light in you. But when you repent and become born-again, then you will be able to say of me and of each one whom is like me, Blessed is he whom comes in the Name of the Lord.
---Eloy on 9/27/07


Eloy,

Once again your are incorrectly dividing the Word of Truth. Faith produces works is what James is saying. He is not saying works bring salvation. You do not work to be saved. Righteousness is by faith alone. True faith will result in actions that line up with what you believe. Works cannot save.
Paul tells you that.

You are close to explaining it correctly. Take your time and understand what I just said in light of other scripture and you will see the light come on.
---Chris on 9/26/07


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.chris, faith without works is 100% dead, not 50% dead, not 10% dead, but faith without works is completely dead.
---Eloy on 9/26/07


Eloy,

You are distorting scripture. Read my earlier post. We do not do good works to earn salvation. If we did it would no longer be a gift. The gift is accepted by faith. Works are a by product of faith. Not us working but the Holy Spirit working in us to produce fruits of the Spirit. You need to repent and ask God to forgive you for trying to earn your salvation. It is the equivalent of trying to by salvation with perishable money.
---Chris on 9/25/07


.denna, This verse 10 in its context is speaking about the liars in verse 6 whom say they have no sin when in fact they do, and this verse is NOT speaking about those in verse 7 whom are truly without sin. Stop wresting the scripture, as I have already corrected you before for taking this passage out of context 3 times now to spread falsehood.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


Eloy,

You can look back over every post I have even made and you will not find any where I said, "We should not do good works." I will show my faith by my works.

Unfortunately there are people like you who believe you have to work your way into heaven. You have been deceived and I pray Holy Spirit will enlighten you to the truth.

Once again you are denying the work Christ did on the cross for you.
---denna7667 on 9/25/07


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Eloy,

I admit truth that I do sin and repent for it. You should do the same. In this context:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
---denna7667 on 9/25/07


"Whoever for grace to be saved on account of which faith, and this not from you, God's gift, not from work, that not somebody might boast. For his doing to be created in Christ Jesus, onto good works, which God who before prepared, that in them we should walk." Ephesians 2:8,9, and 10. We are created for what? he says, "Good Works". And we should walk in what? again he says, "Good Works".
---Eloy on 9/25/07


It is not in Scripture, and no where did Jesus say, "Do no works and you will be righteous", nor did he say "the righteousness of God cost nothing." On the contrary he said, "He that DOES THE WILL of my Father will enter into heaven, WELL DONE, GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT: enter into the joy of your lord." He did NOT SAY, "He that believes in the Father will enter into heaven, Well believed, good and faithful believer: enter into the joy of your Lord."
---Eloy on 9/25/07


I will ask those who believe in a workless salvation: Was Jesus a doer of God's will, or was he just a faith-er of God's will. I must say, Only the doers are saved: for all the faith in the world will not, nor cannot, save a soul, without works. "For his doing to be created in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, which God who before prepared, that IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK." Ephesians 2:10. Walk in what? faith? No, but instead we read that we were made for good works, and to walk in them. Eph.2:10.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


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The Bible does not read, Do not work for salvation, instead, the Bible reads, Do the works of Christ else you have no salvation. I work for God because it is our duty and we are Commanded to work, and 2nd I work for God because I know that he above all is faithful, and 3rd I work for God because I am in him and he in me, I love God and I always do what pleases him. God does not want people to serve him only when they feel like it, but always and at all times. Please read Matthew 21:28-32, Luke 14:25-35.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


Real Christians DO the works of Christ. Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from wrong. Be perfect, be righteous, be good and bear good fruit, be obedient, sin not, be clean, be pure, be holy, lie not, bless and curse not, love God completely, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies, share your faith, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the shut-ins and prisoners and the infirmed, and be a father to the fatherless, a friend to the friendless, a helper to the helpless.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


When you believe that works are unnecessary, you are deceived in believing in cheap grace, which is unfounded in Scripture: for God's grace is not free but instead costs your whole entire life, else you have no grace but a delusion. Peter did not experience Gods grace by staying in the boat, but he received Gods grace only after he acted, by stepping out of the boat and walking towards Jesus, then Gods grace sustained him on top of the water, and not before.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


Faith without works is 100% dead. The Bible is perfectly clear that if you have no works you have no salvation, and a workless believer might just as well believe in no God at all, for their faith is in vain. "And by works faith is made perfect." Please read James 1:22-25, 2:14-26. Works is the Command, if you do no works & bear no fruit, you're disobedient, and you will be condemned no matter if you profess faith in Jesus or not.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


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Everywhere in scripture it reads that every person is rewarded according to their works which they have done. God the Master will repay each person what they have earned, whether everlasting paradise for working God's will, or everlasting damnation for not working God's will.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


Salvation IS based on what we DO. Not all who say, Lord, Lord, will enter into heaven, but only them who DO THE WILL of my Father in heaven. If you bear no good fruit, then you will be accursed, gathered as a withered branch and cast into the furnace of fire.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


Faith is not enough for salvation, for works are necessary to prove ones faith. Noah had faith and believed God, but his faith would have been dead, unless he obeyed and worked to build the ark. Lot had faith, but his faith would have been worthless, unless he actually fled Sodom and Amorah. Abraham had faith, but it would have been nothing unless he left his home to serve the one God. Some O.T. examples: James 2:20-26.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


Only doers of his will are saved, and not lip servers. Lip servers praise God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him, for if the lip server truly loved the Lord, then the lip server would keep his commandments and serve him by doing the works of Christ. The tree without fruit is accursed, dried up from the roots and withered, and they are gathered and thrown into the fire.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


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Amen to that Chris.....it is through faith in Christ that we are children of God.(Gal.3:26)
---JIM on 9/25/07


If you are trying to do good to be accepted by God you are outside of grace. Read Romans 3:10, Isa 64:6. Righteousness comes by faith in the finished work of Christ. To believe in your own works is to deny the power of the Cross. Righteousness is by faith in Christ, without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). God loves you just the way you are and nothing can seperate you from his love, nothing.

Read Ephesians 2:8-10. We do good works because we are saved not to become saved.
---Chris on 9/25/07


.denna, you speak falsehood, and since I am a born-again Christian I am not able to receive your falsehood.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


.denna, when you are in sin you are not in Christ Jesus, instead you are in condemnation.
---Eloy on 9/25/07


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I am the way the truth and the life. No one can go to the Father except through me. I think that says it all. Amen?
---Cynthia on 9/24/07


Eloy,

I know I am going to come short of works. But the effort is always there, but not out of condemnation. Again you are doubting the total atoning work of Christ on the cross.

Due lack of space you can read the rest (1-15) of the section after Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
---denna7667 on 9/24/07


It may be neither. I have been through some of that. We feel not good enough to serve God especially the higher your calling. All I can tell you is, if you are born-again God WANTS YOU!
---catherine on 9/23/07


God's grace moves you to work. It is a sin not to try to be good enough. "Scare" is from God when in disobedience, for a fearful looking-for of his judgment. When you feel "scared" for not being good enough, it should move you towards prayer and turning to God for guidance. God convicting you should lead you to repentance or to "do" some type of work (ministering) for him. And oppression is not from the Lord, for whom the Son sets free is free indeed.
---Eloy on 9/23/07


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You will NEVER be able to do enough works to make it into heaven, contrary to what some might lead you to believe.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
---denna7667 on 9/22/07


I am soryy to say that you are following a grace/works gsopel. Your statement of "trying to be good enough" is just like the Jews of the OT that circumcision and keeping the 7th day sabbath made them righteous. Galatians 2:16 clearly shows that only Christ's work can save. Lat Hebrews 11 and wherever you see the word "faith" insert Christ because He is the essence of faith (Rev 19:11).
---Ed_from_IL on 9/16/07


Its all about faith, not works of the flesh...look at Christ, HE set you free.
Abide in HIM, HE is the vine.
---duane on 9/11/07


It is Satan confusing you. It could also be a conviction for unrepented sin or lack of faith. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, James 2:18b I will show you my faith by my works."
---denna7667 on 9/11/07


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When we have done our best we rely on the grace of God in Christ our Lord.

Having begun in the Spirit we are not perfected by works or the flesh.

Conviction goes with the word but will not condemn.

Opressing spirits and condemnation are from the devil.

When you have discernment of spirits you can discern between these.

Many don't and blasphemy when they call evil good and good evil such as calling conviction of the Spirit the devil.

Frank
---Frank on 9/11/07


It might not be either. It might be a healthy fear of the Lord. Be careful when ye stand lest ye fall. Just when you think you are perfectly in line with Gods will and not sinning, something will knock you off your high horse to remind you to be lowley with and humble. None of us are worthy.That's why Jesus opens the Book of Life when noone was found worthy enough.
---jody_jmartin on 9/11/07


The Lord asked his disciples how they would feed a multitude when he already knew what he would do. It says he did it to prove them.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe God would supply a sacrifice and grace so that he could "prove" them and watch them abuse his grace and reject his law?

They will damn themselves by not trying to follow what pleases God to the best of their ability.

Frank
---Frank on 9/11/07


16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
---Andrea on 9/11/07


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We are saved by the Grace of God. We are not worthy of such a wonderful gift, but Thank God Almighty for his mercy!

Once salvation has occurred, you will know the tree by the fruit (works) it puts forth. Read Revelation and you will see that Jesus has many things against 5 of the 7 Churches. Never leave your first love! Jesus expects us to put forth his righteous fruit.

God Bless!
---Mr._Graham on 9/5/07


It is most definitely Oppression. I too sometimes get tempted in that. We can never be good enough to deserve salvation in the first place. If it were not for God's grace. You know what, I do learn alot on blogging my own answers. Thank you Jesus.
---catherine on 9/4/07


There is no versus in Grace/works. When God creates the new you, you've accepted Him as Saviour. The natural tendency is to do things that He wants you to do, He reveals these to you. Much like human relationships. He wants to be intimate with you. You cannot help but do what some call works out of that deep love.
---dan on 9/5/07


Andrea, to the blog question, it may be conviction. But more importantly it is what Paul said should happen - Philippians 2:12-16. It is not that you are not good enough, but that you are more aware of sin and desire to avoid it - that is the mark of one who is redeemed. The rebellious and carnal have no such fear.

Do your best to live as Christ would have you live and trust in Jesus. He always keeps His promises.
---lorra8574 on 9/4/07


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Andrea, to the blog question, it may be conviction. But more importantly it is what Paul said should happen - Philippians 2:12-16. It is not that you are not good enough, but that you are more aware of sin and desire to avoid it - that is the mark of one who is redeemed. The rebellious and carnal have no such fear.

Do your best to live as Christ would have you live and trust in Jesus. He always keeps His promises.
---lorra8574 on 9/4/07


Andrea, P2: One more thing, forget works versus grace - what you experiencing is Grace. It was God's gift to you. Obeying Jesus is not a "work of the Law", it is a true Christian's natural instinct. The Bible furnishes you with what you need to accomplish all good works (1 Timothy 3:16-17). Also, read Titus Chapter 2, note especially verse 14.
---lorra8574 on 9/4/07


Andrea, P2: One more thing, forget works versus grace - what you experiencing is Grace. It was God's gift to you. Obeying Jesus is not a "work of the Law", it is a true Christian's natural instinct. The Bible furnishes you with what you need to accomplish all good works (1 Timothy 3:16-17). Also, read Titus Chapter 2, note especially verse 14.
---lorra8574 on 9/4/07


Works alone will not save you. Works is only a natural extention of your Christianity. In order to DO the commandments (love God, love neighbor) you must do something. After you receive the Holy Spirit, you are able to do things, perform miracles greater than Jesus. What you do to bring people to Christ will cover a multitude of sins.
---Steveng on 9/4/07


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None of us will ever or ever could be good enough, or do enough works to get into heaven. We are saved my His grace and love for us.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---denna7667 on 9/4/07


Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (Titus 3:5).
---Andrea on 9/4/07


"I'm sorry for you but spiritual things are not revealed to the carnal mind. You must be born again and delivered from your sin to understand grace."

That would explain why you come so close and yet miss the boat. We are saved by faith in God's grace through the shed blood of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. We need to be saved because we have broken God's 10C's based on the prinicple of love.

And as I have told you before love is NOT bondage!
---djconklin on 9/4/07


dj - I'm sorry for you but spiritual things are not revealed to the carnal mind. You must be born again and delivered from your sin to understand grace. Freely given freely recieved.

If you call on the name of Jesus He is faithful....just cry out JESUS!

Elen White is a false prophet who has lead millions into bondage.
---Andrea on 9/4/07


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I think some have forgotten the work of Jesus Christ...Its not what we do...its what HE did for us. Some want to take credit for their righteousness but its imputed to us.
Grace is un-merited favor ...He loved us before we loved HIM. We had HIS grace before we were born. This is the love of GOD.
---duane on 9/4/07


Andrea...You will never be good enough to inherit salvation. It is by the Grace of Almighty God through Faith in Jesus christ alone that we have everlasting life.
---JIM on 9/4/07


"I repent daily - I believe utterly that God already knows every lousy deed and thought and intent of the heart and I don't try to whitewash it."

Why do you have to repent? As Paul said where there is no law there is no sin. So, how can you know what to repent of?
---djconklin on 9/4/07


Eloy - I repent daily - I believe utterly that God already knows every lousy deed and thought and intent of the heart and I don't try to whitewash it.

I have no choice but to completely trust Christ for my salvation bc I know there is no good thing that dwells in me - the holier I GET THE MORE I SEE EVERY SIN.

Once in awhile - I get struck with a bolt of the what ifs - thats all - it passes.

and I'm reminded I have no where else to go. But Him.

its a good thing
---Andrea on 9/3/07


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Andrea::what you said brought a tear to my eyes & a choked feeling which I could not swallow without a sip of tea .But I do love you too as you can read my mind as I do yours .
---Emcee on 9/3/07


There are many unsaved people whom are brain-washed into thinking grace is unconditional. But as I have already said: NO repenatnace, then NO grace. It is up to each individual person's choice whether to obey and be given grace, or else to disobey and be given damnation. Grace comes to the humble seeker and never to the hard-hearted and stiff-necked. Hell runs over with deluded people whom believe in a nonexistent cheap-grace.
---Eloy on 9/3/07


"My sin I made you know, and my crookedness I have not covered. I said, I will confess up to my disobedience to YHWH, and you took away the punishment of my sin. Exalt. If wrongs you will keep, YH, Lord, who will stand? But with you forgiveness, that you may be respected. FOR THIS will every one that is godly pray up to you in a time when you may be found." Psalm 32:5+ 130:3,4+ 32:6.
---Eloy on 9/3/07


Only by repenting will God have mercy and receive you, and not before. "But your wrongs are separating between you and your God, and your sins have hidden face from you, that he will not hear." Isaiah 59:2.
---Eloy on 9/3/07


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Grace most certainly does have conditions, there is absolutely no grace granted without repentance. It is required to turn away from sin and turn to the Lord in repentance before the Lord will give grace, else refusing to repent the soul will stay condemned.
---Eloy on 9/3/07


There are many unsaved people whom are brain-washed into thinking grace is unconditional. But as I have already said: NO repentance, then NO grace. It is up to each individual person's choice whether to obey and be given grace, or else to disobey and be given damnation. Grace comes to the humble seeker and never to the hard-hearted and stiff-necked. Hell runs over with deluded people whom believe in a nonexistent cheap-grace.
---Eloy on 9/3/07


The Bible says if you have no works then faith alone cannot save you. Obviously, you have some works. So I think what you have is a lack of confidence that God will do his part. You will never be good enough but the righteousness that you have from faith in Jesus is good enough. Be confident that God will do his part.
---john on 9/2/07


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