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Who Should Baptise

Who is to Administer the Ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper? Please give the reason .

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 ---mima on 9/26/07
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What do you do with 1 Cor 1:17, Christ sent Paul not to Baptize, but to preach the gospel? Rom 1:1, Paul called to be an apostle separated onto the gospel of God? Gal 2:7, Paul and Peter having 2 different messages, the gospel of the uncircumcision to the gospel of the circumcision?
---Jerry on 9/9/08


Baptism is a sacrament and should only be administered by ordained clergy by sprinkling, pouring or immersion to persons of any age including infants.
---notlaw99 on 8/16/08


Lorra,

You and I will have to agree to disagree.

Mark 16:17-18 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

That is for all "those who believe." You can, I can, anyone who believes can lay hands as it says.
---denna7667 on 10/10/07


Lorra,

I am well aware of the fact that "structures" cannot lay on hands. I was pointing out your use of the word.

For some reason we seem to be straying from the original point and that's fine. You will believe what you have been taught, are led to believe, interpret, and buy Holy Spirit discernment, and I will do the same.
---denna7667 on 10/10/07


Denna and Mima, and ordained presbyter does not operate on his own authority or by his own power - but only through and with Jesus.

Read all of Acts 8. Simon (not Peter) was baptised by Philip, but could not lay hands on people confer the Holy Ghost. Simon sought to purchase this gift and was soundly rebuked. Acts 8:17 - the gift of the Holy Ghost was received only with the laying on of hands. Yes, Jesus is ultimately responsible but He chose to work through His ordained presbyters.
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07




Denna P2: Yes, the presbytery does also refer to a physical structure. But the root word still comes from Presbuteros (Presbyter) which is a person in charge of a church. Structures do not convey the Holy Ghost, people do. Paul was not speaking of a physical structure when he wrote to Timothy. And structures do not lay hands. Nor do mobs. Why call for the Elders/Presbyters, if any group of believers could do this.
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07


Denna & Mima: Read Acts 19, Believers had not received the Holy Ghost even after Pentacost - when Paul asked who had baptised them, they said it was John (the Baptist). This was sufficient for Paul to realise that they had not been formally Baptised into Christ Jesus, and he did so. Acts 19:6, it was Paul who laid hands upon them and with this act, the Holy Spirit was conferred.
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07


Denna and Mima, the exception to the rule is seen in Acts 10 where the God gave the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles as a sign that they should be baptised. We know that this was extraordinary (as in NOT the norm) because Peter was still talking about the incident in Acts 11, explaining what happened and how it came to be that the first gentiles were Baptised.
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07


Lorra,

"Anyone can baptize as John did, but an ordained minister gives the Holy Ghost." I really beg to differ. There is not a minister ordained or not, on earth who can, "give the Holy Ghost". Like John they can only baptize with water.

Matthew 3:11b....He (Jesus)shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

We will agree to disagree about be chosen by Jesus and being ordained. Also see definition of Presbytery below.
---denna7667 on 10/9/07


lorra you wrote." Anyone can baptise as John did, but an ordained minister gives the Holy Ghost." Bible says in Matthew5:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but HE that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: HE shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" lorra the HE referred to here is not an ordained minister or priest of any church.
---Mima on 10/9/07




Denna, the fact that any of those baptised by John the Baptist had to be rebaptised shows that his baptisms were not the same as those administered by the Apostles and their successors. One only needs to be properly baptised once. Jesus was baptised once by John the Baptist to be part of the group, but He was the first and only person that John Baptised that was shown with the Holy Ghost. Anyone can baptise as John did, but an ordained minister gives the Holy Ghost.
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07


Denna P2: Jesus was already united with the Holy Ghost by virtue of who He was.

It is true that not everyone who receives the laying on of hands (i.e. all who are properly baptised) are ordained. I already wrote of one who tried to buy the gifts of ordination. But the Bible does show that only those who were ordained can do the laying on of hands whether for baptism or anointing the sick with oil.
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07


Denna P3: Therefore, Philip and the Apostles must have been ordained since ordinary Christians could NOT do this, elsewhere in the Bible. Being chosen by Jesus and being sent out directly by Him, is ordination. Jesus did not chose or send out the women who followed Him, but did hand pick the men who would become His Apostles and gave them the authority to ordain more men. 1 Timothy 4:14, why would Paul write this if the prebytery was just a fad?
---lorra8574 on 10/9/07


Lorra (1 of 2)

The Apostles were ordained by Jesus Christ I guess you and I have different interpretations of the word "ordained". To my teaching and study there is a huge difference between "chosen by Jesus" and "being ordained". I stand by the fact that Phillip was not an ordained clergy. The laying on of hands does not necessarily mean ordination, although most denominations do during the ordination ceremony.
---denna7667 on 9/29/07


Lorra (2 of 2)
I never said John Baptized with the Holy Ghost. My point was he was not ordained and still baptized people with water. There is no biblical record of all the ones John baptized with water being re-baptized.

Presbytery: 1. the churches under the jurisdiction of a presbytery. 2. The part of a church appropriated to the clergy. 3. Roman Catholic Church. a rectory.

We will agree to disagree. I respect your beliefs all I ask is respect mine.
---denna7667 on 9/29/07


Denna, I put those verses in to show that John the Baptist who was not ordained clergy, could NOT baptise with the Holy Ghost. I gave passages that showed that those only baptised by John the Baptist had to be rebaptised, just like you cannot baptise others either, even IF you were as holy as John the Baptist.

The Apostles were ordained by Jesus Christ, He personally selected them and the presbytery does not included all baptised persons.
---lorra8574 on 9/29/07


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Denna, what Jesus did to His Apostles was ordination, and there are many passages in the Bible speaking of the laying on of hands. Show me a single example of a lay person baptising from the scriptures. And if you doubt this, what was the purpose of the presbytery, and why could Simon (Acts 8) not confer the Holy Ghost, as was conferred by the "Apostle's Hands" (and not by any lay person)?
---lorra8574 on 9/29/07


Lorra (1 of 2)
Mathew 3:11 Mark 1:8 Luke 3:16 John 1:33 = John baptizes with water. Who was not ordained clergy.

Acts 8:14-24 deals receiving the Holy Spirit not water Baptism.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (KJV) Receiving the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being ordained.

The apostles were chosen by Jesus and given powers to cast out demons and heal the sick not ordained.
---denna7667 on 9/28/07


Lorra (2 of 2)
You still have not shown where it says that clergy is required to baptize.

By your scripture references then no one should be able to administer baptism today. You did enforce my statement where is says in Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water John was a forerunner of Christ and not given the same powers as the apostles.

I am well aware of who was at the Lords supper and what it signifies.
---denna7667 on 9/28/07


Denna, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, 7:39 (followed by Acts 1:5 which shows that those baptised before received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost in Acts 2:4). These are to link Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Now as for who may confer the Holy Ghost? The above mention Jesus, but Jesus baptised no one Himself.

Acts 8:14-24, not everyone who was baptised could confer the Holy Ghost, only those who were ordained to ministry.
---lorra8574 on 9/28/07


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Denna P2: Acts 19:1-6, John the Baptist's baptism was not sufficient, it took Paul's hands to confer the Holy Ghost.

There are exceptions in Acts where gentiles were baptised after receiving the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands - BUT, this was a sign that they could be baptised, not proof that ordination is not necessary (and they still had to be baptised properly).
---lorra8574 on 9/28/07


Denna P3: As for Philip, Matthew 10:2-3 - He was one of the Apostles specifically and personally ordained by Jesus Christ. You do not get more authoritative than that.

1 Timothy 4:14 The presbytery is the body of ordained ministers. Catholic priests are still members of the presbytery.
---lorra8574 on 9/28/07


Denna P4, as for the Lord's Supper, I would remind you that the participants in that important ritual were the same disciples that would become known as the Apostles. And Jesus ordained them personally when He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Ghost in advance of Pentecost.

I would point out that in an emergency, any Christian may baptise, but that is a man-made instruction given by the Catholic Church = you will not find that in the Bible.
---lorra8574 on 9/28/07


Acts 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he (Philip) baptized him.

I don't recall Philip being a member of the clergy. I also don't recall right off any biblical requirements of clergy performing baptism or the Lord's Supper. The only time the Lord's Supper is mention is in the context of Jesus having it with the disciples.
---denna7667 on 9/28/07


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I believe baptism is a public declaration of faith but that it can be done by any believer. Communion is for the edification of the church so it should be done together but if you want to symbolically take it for good reasons there are no scriptural reasons not to. I have and will again for healing or just in a moment of remembrance.
---Andrea on 9/27/07


A God-fearing born again believer should administer Baptism and Commmunion. If there is a person that has not been born again, they should not get baptized or take communion. Both are sacred. Once they have been born again then they can be baptized and have communion.
---Rebecca_D on 9/27/07


The great commission was to all to go out and preach, teach and baptize. To my knowledge there are no Biblical instruction or teaching as to who is to administer. In our church we encourage people to have communion in their homes as well as in the assembly.
---john on 9/26/07


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