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Origin Of Catholic Church

This question is by no means intended to offend any Catholics. What is the origin of the Catholic Church?

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Hi Manny, I wanted to answer you about home churches. When I was in a Pentacostal church ten years ago, the church was big. About a thousand. So the lead pastor wanted to began home churches. We had about twenty of them. This way many could help others within those groups. I had a home church for three years with about thirty members. A home pastor was assign to each group. We would pray for each others needs, and help each other in prayer when the needs were there. We also had bible study in my house.
This groups are very helpful because in a big church many people get lost in the crowds and many times needs for individuals were not met. The group pastors reported to the main pastor as to what was going on in the groups.
---MarkV. on 11/25/08


Manny, 2,
I believe the home church Steven is speaking of are not denominational. They are just groups that meet to discus Scripture. With no agenda as to what kind of believes to teach. The reason I say this is because Steven is so much against denominational churches no matter who they are. He calls them a plan of satan. I suppose cause some bad things happened to him while traveling across the country.
---MarkV. on 11/25/08


Steveng, What is a "home church'... and how does it differ from what you also call "denominational church"?

Also, when you said in one of your posts: "...a christian can learn more in one year by joining a home church..." What happens on this "intimate learning" that you call...? how do you learn..? who teaches who...?

I ask these questions only because i really have no idea of these things... (no malice or bad intentions on my part)
---manny on 11/24/08


It was wriiten by POPE Clement, what other Church has a Pope:)
---Ruben

Pope was a common term for many Bishops in many areas. So the Eastern church had popes.

As the Roman pope took more and more power even declaring they were the sole mediatior between men and heaven as the Vicar of CHRIST. Then others quit being called pope. By lies and false papers the Papacy gained power. By bribery and murder they eliminate rivals and competors. IN the end armies marched to kill those who opposed the RCC. They were called the crusades. So the relgious leader ordered the deaths of thousands in the name of JESUS. That is Blasphemy.
---Samuel on 11/24/08


Ruben - So Clement like nearly all the other bishops of those times, wrote to his parishioners in his dioceses to obey the leaders appointed over them. Nothing in his writings indicates that he considered himself the bishop of bishops or superior to other bishoprics.

I would still like to see you tackle the issue that there was some kind of immunity from doctrinal error even if Peter was given keys passed downward to the bishops of Rome. The early church believed many erroneous things that had to be weeded out over the centuries.
---Lee1538 on 11/22/08




Lee* You quote Clement who encouraged his readers to obey the leaders God had appointed to His church, but virtually nothing that stated Rome was given supremacy.

It was wriiten by POPE Clement, what other Church has a Pope:)
---Ruben on 11/21/08


Lee* Ruben - even if you could prove that was some kind of apostolic succession

Even if I could, I did!

DID NOT!

You quote Clement who encouraged his readers to obey the leaders God had appointed to His church, but virtually nothing that stated Rome was given supremacy.

And you have yet to show that if some kind of authority was given and passed downward to the bishops of Rome, that it also came with some kind of guarantee that the church would be free of doctrinal error and practice.

In effect, all you have in Roman Catholicism is just another religion making claims that cannot be substantiated.
---Lee1538 on 11/21/08


Lee* Ruben - even if you could prove that was some kind of apostolic succession

Even if I could, I did!

Lee* However, it is very clear from church history that the church was often plagued with doctrinal error as well as practices that were exploitation of its followers.

Give examples..

For one thing it is just too easy to see that once Christianity was proclaimed the state religion, that many pagans / unbelievers were appointed to high church offices. So there is really no reason today to believe unique Roman Church doctrines are not heretical.

If that happen to christianity then are you sure the Books in the NT are right, contary to what you believe the Bible was organize in the 3rd early 4th!
---Ruben on 11/19/08


Lee* Ruben - even if you could prove that was some kind of apostolic succession

Even if I could, I did!

Lee* However, it is very clear from church history that the church was often plagued with doctrinal error as well as practices that were exploitation of its followers.

Give examples..

For one thing it is just too easy to see that once Christianity was proclaimed the state religion, that many pagans / unbelievers were appointed to high church offices. So there is really no reason today to believe unique Roman Church doctrines are not heretical.

If that happen to christianity then are you sure the Books in the NT are right, contary to what you believe the Bible was organize in the 3rd early 4th!
---Ruben on 11/19/08


Lee* And what do you do with that period of time when there were 3 popes and the See was moved to Avignon, France?

Find out why they were moved to france?

Lee* Interesting that of the 5 Avignon popes, a couple of those 'holy fathers' died of syphilis of the brain. At least they did not commit the heinous sin of marriage.

Thanks for the report!
---Ruben on 11/19/08




Ruben - *For to Peter succeeded Linus, Clement...Damsus, Sircius, Anastasius. In this order of succession...

And what do you do with that period of time when there were 3 popes and the See was moved to Avignon, France?

Interesting that of the 5 Avignon popes, a couple of those 'holy fathers' died of syphilis of the brain. At least they did not commit the heinous sin of marriage.
---Lee1538 on 11/18/08


Ruben - even if you could prove that was some kind of apostolic succession from Peter downward to the bishops of Rome, you still have to establish your theory that this succession was granted some kind of immunity from doctrinal error.

However, it is very clear from church history that the church was often plagued with doctrinal error as well as practices that were exploitation of its followers.

For one thing it is just too easy to see that once Christianity was proclaimed the state religion, that many pagans / unbelievers were appointed to high church offices. So there is really no reason today to believe unique Roman Church doctrines are not heretical.
---Lee1538 on 11/17/08


paul: "without Jesus there would be no Catholic church."

The holds true for the Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah Withnesses, SDA, and the other 3,300 or so denominational churches.

As for the RCC, Rome was on it's way out when they (the leaders of Rome) thought that instead of being totally eradicated, they would start a church similar to Christiandom, funded, of course, by Rome. RCC became popular not because of God, but of money. If you compare the activities of Rome and of the RCC, you'll find that they are similar. Instead of man's activities (Rome), the RCC had the "blessings" of Jesus or have done their activies "in the name of Jesus." What Chrisitan would refute that at that time?
---Steveng on 11/17/08


Ruben - your quotation from Clement does NOT support the view that Rome was the central church authority.
---Lee1538 on 11/14/08

If the lineal succession of bishops is to be considered with how much more benefit to the Church do we reckon from Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it!' For to Peter succeeded Linus, Clement...Damsus, Sircius, Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is too be found." Augustine, To Generosus, Epistle 53:2 (A.D. 400
---Ruben on 11/17/08


Ruben - your quotation from Clement does NOT support the view that Rome was the central church authority.
---Lee1538 on 11/14/08


Our Lord, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church, And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards, so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers." Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 1 (A.D. 250).
---Ruben on 11/17/08


without Jesus there would be no Catholic church.
---paul on 11/15/08


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When the man constantine embraced a christian type of relig-org which is r-catholocism,the first trin-church came into existance about 300 yr's after God's Church was born according to(Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20)on the day of Pentecost to the Jewish people First by Apostle Peter. Because constantine along with his affiliates did Not want to line up to The Truth of God's Word & His Church being born on the of Pentecost.
So constantine & his affiliates started their own relig-org,r-catholocism with their idol worship & Is Man-Made. Matt 15 v 9. They are such good catholic people,they just need their heart & mind enlightened.
---Lawrence on 11/14/08


Ruben - your quotation from Clement does NOT support the view that Rome was the central church authority. All he really does in his letters is to support the viewpoint that all ministers have a divine calling from God and that believers must be careful to submit to the authorities that God has established in the church.
---Lee1538 on 11/14/08


lee,
there are some scripture that Paul writes that this is what he feels it should be and not a command of God.example- 1 Corinthians 7:12 Paul says "I, not the Lord, say"
I guess you never read that, maybe?

steven,
I was talking about the physical places of the Churches. Many times churches-plural is used, why do you think that is?
Here is a list of scriputure:
Acts 9:31, 15:41, 16:5
Romans 16:4, 16:16
1 Corinthians 7:16, 14:33-34, 16:1, 16:19
2 Corinthians 8:1, 8:18-24, 11:8, 11:28, 12:13
Galatians 1:2, 1:22
1 Thessalonians 2:14,
2 Thessalonians 1:4
---miche3754 on 11/14/08


Lee* And no one has been able to find a single one of them who believed Rome was given some kind of authority passed downward from St. Peter.

... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement , Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
---Ruben on 11/14/08


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Steveng, I have the mind of a human being. All you need is understanding. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read history and what has happened through the years.
No body wanted to help you in any church, and there must have been a reason. I have been to many and they always welcome you in even when they teach the wrong doctrines.
Didn't you ever wonder that maybe it was because of you?
---MarkV. on 11/14/08


miche3754 - *I also believe that some of what Paul says was inspired by the Holy Spirit(of course)

What criteria do you employ to determine what was of Paul and what was of the Holy Spirit? Flick a coin on whatever verse you are reading?
---Lee1538 on 11/13/08


Trey:-You raise a good political point.Why was Rome chosen as the first obstacle by Jesus in establishing His New Church.Christianity started in the Jewish Nation.The Jews were ruled by the Romans who had power and control over them through the Roman Governor .The Jewish King Agrippa,used this intrigue to erradicate the new Teachings by Jesus he raised an insurrection and Rome became the main oppressors of The early church.God conquered this rebellion by staunch fearless men like Peter and Paul.Thus the Roman empire fell to Christianity and the rest was History as it took on like wild fire spreading to Europe and England till The Good old reformers stepped in under the tuttelage of a satanic foothold Rest is as we see it today 3600 denoms.
---Mic on 11/13/08


Nicole, People read Paul so much, and Paul himself says that he is the final authority and if anyone preaches different to what he says let them be accursed...Paul's main purpose I believe, is to prove that the Bible is the truth.
---frances008 on 11/13/08

Paul's Letters isn't the most read of the bibles by Christians.
He is the most read by Protestants Christians.

Paul never disagrees with Jesus.
I think the reason most go to the Letters is because his words are easier to misintrepret.
Plus, it is a lesser sin to misintrepret man than God!

Orthodox and Catholics read the Gospels the most.
It is the Gospels that are the most important.

I will give you an example in the next post.
---Nicole on 11/13/08


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2. Example, Lee1538 tries gives proofs that Jesus and Paul's words are the same.

He has forgotten that Jesus is God.
This is most likely because of the mingling of God's Words with Men's Words and they all look the same to him.

'led by the Spirit': Which Spirit?
Isn't it the Holy Spirit?

1st, he says Jesus is under the Law. (by the way, His Father gave that Law) As if His Words are same to Paul because after all, Paul is also under the Law.
Then he pulled and pasted words out of a Letter of Paul to Gal, stating: led by the Spirit you are not under the Law.

As if there are Two different Spirits out there?
Which Spirit is it that Paul speaking about?
Isn't it Jesus' Spirit, Paul is speaking about?
---Nicole on 11/13/08


MarkV: "God had other plans for the reformers."

And you have the mind of God?
---Steveng on 11/13/08


miche3754: "That there was more than one Church established. One in each city. Christ started this. As Christ traveled to each city, he started a church body."

There is only one body, one church, one group of Christians all traveling the same road to the Kingdom of God. The different names (for example, church of Antioch) are merely locations of groupds of christians to identify them. They were not "established" religions.

Today, denominational churches are formed that confuse Christian wannabes to figure out which is the right church. They choose a church more closely related to their own personal preferences. Which, of course, is not right. Denominational churches are the great delusion.
---Steveng on 11/13/08


MarkV: "Seveng, you say you tried to help and they kicked you out. Maybe you were bringing in some doctrine they did not agree with."

Didn't Jesus go into a few temples to teach and was rejected? I tell you the truth, any present day man of God, apostle, or prophet will be rejected by denominational churches for they have their own traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible. The love of Christians have waxed cold especailly over the past thirty years. Thirty-five years ago, while hitchhiking across America, it wasn't difficult to find a church willing to have a member allow me to stay for a couple of days or weeks at a time. Today, churches won't help you unless you are a member (proven by experience in 2004).
---Steveng on 11/13/08


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Does it strike any of you as funny that the Catholic church claims Rome as it seat of power? The early christians looked upon Jerusalem as the center of Christianity. Also in the book of Revelation the Lord did not mention the church in Rome. He spoke to the churches in Asia minor.

Also, can anyone prove that Peter was ever in Rome? It seems the scriptures point to him abiding at Jerusalem.

Rome was never the seat of christianity. It was always the seat of military power. The home of the Ceasars.

What are your thoughts?
---trey on 11/13/08


Luke65,

God's aversion to his worshippers mimicking the religious practices of false religion is clearly noted in his warning to the Israelites poised to invade the Promised Land under the leadership of Joshua. We read:

"When the LORD, your God, removes the nations from your way as you advance to dispossess them, be on your guard! Otherwise, once they have been wiped out before you and you have replaced them and are settled in their land, you will be lured into following them. Do not inquire regarding their gods, HOW did these nations worship their god? I, too would do the same. You shall not thus worship the LORD... Deuteronomy 12: 29, 30 NAB
---scott on 11/13/08


Luke, Ruben *And this someone who believes in Bible Only, but when you get him on that now he asking for a early Church Father on "keys" pass on, go figure!

Simply that the validity of the Bible is further established by what the early church fathers believed. And no one has been able to find a single one of them who believed Rome was given some kind of authority passed downward from St. Peter.

We really have you guys on this one as you are empty handed to establish any support from either scripture or church history. All you have is some bias garbage handed down by those who have long ago rejected the truth.
---Lee1538 on 11/13/08


Nicole, it is strange isn't it? People read Paul so much, and Paul himself says that he is the final authority and if anyone preaches different to what he says let them be accursed. He does not say if anyone preaches different to what Jesus preached, No! He puts himself right at the top. He suffered from pride. (He was not perfect.) He also thought Peter was wrong and this caused a division in the church. We have to use discernment. Paul is important because he is a strong historical proof that Jesus was really a historical figure. Notice in the last chapter of Matthew we were warned that conspiracies were afoot to claim that Jesus's body was stolen. Paul's main purpose I believe, is to prove that the Bible is the truth.
---frances008 on 11/13/08


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Seveng, you say you tried to help and they kicked you out. Maybe you were bringing in some doctrine they did not agree with. What you are really saying is that one kicked you out and just because one did, all of them are creation of Satan. You have it wrong. Satan is a created being, and not Omniscience. God is the creator. Satan tempts evil on man and they do only what is in their nature to do. Many evil man are in institutions with one purpose only, to destroy the church from within. If God did not want, as in the RCC, to continue, or wanted them to restore back to a true church, the reformers would have changed the RCC, instead, God had other plans for the reformers.
---MarkV. on 11/13/08


Yes, I agree that what Jesus says is more important.

I also believe that some of what Paul says was inspired by the Holy Spirit(of course)
But I think that Paul also put some of his personal feelings in the matter, too.

Anyway, I was only speaking of the fact that there were several Churches in the Bible before the RCC was established.

Peter, Paul and the other Apostles tried to bring unity among them. But it did not happen until they were gone.
---miche3754 on 11/13/08


It is a fallacy to believe that the words of Jesus in the Scripture are of any more authority from the words of Paul as the same Spirit authored the words of both in the creation of the Scripture.

Also some fail to understand that Jesus was under the law, obeyed it perfectly to redeem believers from the law that one may be justified by faith in Christ alone.

Ga 3:23, 4:4-5, 5:18 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
---Lee1538 on 11/13/08


No Miche3754, the Bible was in pieces. Several Gospels everywhere. Letters by many Fathers of the Church sent to many people at different Churches all over Asia Minor and etc.
One Church has 1 or 2 Gospels, 3 letters of Paul, maybe 1 from Peter.
Another had different ones.

The Fathers (RCC) decided which Texts and Letters would be placed together in a Book called the Bible.
The Councils at Hippo 393 AD, Carthage 397 and 419AD who decided the Lists of Deuterocanonical texts were included in the Septuaqint 3 BC Greek translation of the OT with the NT making it 73 as it is TODAY.

THE LIST HAS NEVER CHANGED SINCE 419AD!!!!

The Council of Trent only CONFIRMED this CANON in the 16th century.
---Nicole on 11/13/08


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Paul was writing to the churches of his day. They had problems and he was trying to fix them. Jesus was talking to everyone of every age. Who are you listening to? I suggest you go back to the Bible and read what Jesus said.---frances008 on 11/12/08

Amen! I glad someone is bring up the fact that Jesus' Words are different in Authority to Paul's Words.

Some think that since both are in the New Testament, they weighs the same on the scale.
---Nicole on 11/13/08


Luke65,
Happy to hear you're digging into this subject. The origin of the halo pales in significance to far greater issues of faith. Yet it underscores the tendancy, historically, for Catholics and Protestants alike to allow pure Christianity to be adulterated by influences unacceptable to God.

Do a search for the relief depicting Helios from the Temple of Athena at Troy. (Pergamum Museum, Berlin). Notice the halo. Dates around 300 BCE.

The halo didn't appear in "Christian" art until the 4th century CE.

Also (cited by the Catholic Encyclopedia as "An important work") is M. Didron's "Christian Iconography." It traces the halo (nimbus) from its pagan origins right into Christendom's churches.
---scott on 11/13/08


I apologize, mic. I was talking to frances.

We must look at the parable of the wheat and tares.
I posted something about it on another blog, but it applies here also.

nicole, I have did some looking and some of the books you spoke of were written within 100 years of Christ.
The reason some were taken out is because the were a repeat of other books.
Some were because they were written by women.
Remember Luther tried to remove any books written by women, isn't that something.
I believe if they were written in a timely manner why not read them? I am sure Thomas would want us to hear his testimony,right?
---miche3754 on 11/13/08


mic, I am looking at facts.

You forgot the other person I was talking about- Peter.
He addressed them the same as Paul.
So what does this say?
That there was more than one Church established.
One in each city. Christ started this.
As Christ traveled to each city, he started a church body.
After Christ's physical body left us, Peter and Paul and the other disciples traveled to each of these. They also established new church bodies as Christ told them to do.
The Council at Nicene changed this and combined them. Before this, there was no unity and each one was persecuted.
They also each had their own version of the Bible.
There are even books missing from the Catholic Bible.
---miche3754 on 11/13/08


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Continue:
But as we know now the RCC was allowed by God to continue their false doctrines and the reformers were allowed to begin other churches. In this truth, the renment of God continues. No matter what man does, God still fulfills His promise for us. Man cannot crush the will of God. I told you about the parable of the growing seed. The seed does not need the help of man to grow. It will grow by itself because God does the work. We are the seed of Abraham and we will grow to maturity and be ready for the harvest, when Jesus comes.
---MarkV. on 11/13/08


Scott, yes, I know. I was under the same impression until a certain persistent opponent made me dig deeper - thank you! And as you may know, the NAB also translates it as "halo". But the fact is the word "iris" also referred to halos at the time the Bible was written. In fact, it still does! Does the iris of the eye look more like a rainbow or a halo? A halo, obviously.

But the bottom line is the context, which makes perfect sense if the correct word is "halo". Although the "rainbow" interpretations are interesting, there is no connection unless you first assume rainbow is the right word, but it doesn't fit the context.
---Luke65 on 11/12/08


MarkV: "StevenG, a home church is still a church."

On the contrary, it is NOT a church. I used these two words to describe the gathering of Christians, making it easier for people, like yourself, to do research. The names of the churches in the Bible are merely locations of a group of Christians, not a denomination.

"Stop condemning all of them and start helping those you can help."

ALL denominational churches are the creation of Satan. There is no harmony among these churches. Prospective Christians choose a church depending on their personal preferences. That, in itself, should not be. I've tried helping denominational churches only to get kicked out.
---Steveng on 11/12/08


Miche, anyone who wrongly applies the N.T. is erring. Paul was writing to the churches of his day. They had problems and he was trying to fix them. Jesus was talking to everyone of every age. Who are you listening to? I suggest you go back to the Bible and read what Jesus said.
---frances008 on 11/12/08


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Lee* We still have not heard from our Roman Church friends anything to the effect that while Peter was given some keys, that such authority was handed downward to the bishops of Rome.

And this someone who believes in Bible Only, but when you get him on that now he asking for a early Church Father on "keys" pass on, go figure!

Lee* Poor souls, they are always silent when they do not have an answer.

We have plenty of answers, but how you response to one of my question is how I wll response back..
Ruben - *Still have not given me a verse that gives me the canonoical list of the books!

Why the necessity?
---Ruben on 11/12/08


I am looking for a complete Bible with all the books in it.---miche3754

Go to a Christian book store and ask for a Catholic Bible.
We have all 73 books.
You will not find one with both approve and nonapprove books together.

Gospel of Thomas, Mary M, etc, Some where written 300 years after Jesus and the Original Disciples were dead.
That is why the Gospels were not included with the other Gospels.
Only one step of hearsay of Jesus allowed.
Not a hearsay from a disciple from another disciple.

Ever played 'Telephone'?
The first person has a sentence and tells the 2nd in his ear until everyone got the message and the last one voices the sentence outloud.
It is never the same message from the first.
---Nicole on 11/12/08


MarkV...amen Brother.
---JIM on 11/12/08


*Peter was never a pope.

And since he was not a Roman Catholic and was married, he would definitely not qualified as a pope in today's world.

1Pe 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:

We still have not heard from our Roman Church friends anything to the effect that while Peter was given some keys, that such authority was handed downward to the bishops of Rome.

Poor souls, they are always silent when they do not have an answer.
---Lee1538 on 11/12/08


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Luke65 1. re "What's this? I searched the wrong version!"

The reason the HCSB, ESV, ASV, NET, NASB, NIV, NLT,YLT CEV, NCV, NKJV, etc. use the word "Rainbow" at Rev 10:1 and 4:3 is simple, because it is the most accurate rendering of the greek "Iris."

In addition translators connect John's vision with the covenant promise given to Noah in the form of a rainbow.

The Expository Dictionary of NT by Vine says: (citing Rev. 4:3) IRIS...describes the rainbow seen in the heavenly vision...emblematic of the fact that...He will remember His covenant concerning the earth (Gen. 9: 9-17).

The word "Rainbow" in Hebrew is the same as the word for an archer's bow. An arch or half circle.
---scott on 11/12/08


I checked out the books that were removed by Luther. And You are right, nicole.

You still have not looked at the fact that the RCC was started out of reform also.

The Churches in the Bible had their own Bibles. Some had certain books while others had their own too. We cannot dispute the fact that there was more than one Church body in the NT before the RCC.

The Nicene Council, took these books and created the Bible as it is today.

So the Body of Christ, the Church has been made over several times.

To me, the greatest thing to ever happen, was when the Bible was made so everyone could read it. I am looking for a complete Bible with all the books in it.
---miche3754 on 11/12/08


Peter was never a pope. If the RCC has him as pope it is because they made him a pope when he was dead over three hundred years. And it was by the order of man who were looking for a reason to do what they have done for centuries. Claim authority over all people.
If Peter was alive he would rebuke what they are doing. Peter would never have taken the place of God. He was not a perfect person but a true believer in the Lord.
The RCC wants everyone to believe they, the institution, has replaced Christ in Authority and power. They separated themselves from Christ because of the evil in them. Repentance only comes through Christ. Any other gospel is a false gospel.
---MarkV. on 11/12/08


no frances, I am not being childish.
I was speaking the truth. It is not me calling names and being childish, frances. That would be your forte.
It is not true that one apostle was lifted up above the other. They are all equal in the eyes of Christ.
Why else would Christ visit Saul(Paul) on the road to Damascus?
And in the nt, there were several churches.
Both Peter and Paul told them not to fight amongst each other because they are all on the body of Christ.
The RCC was born out of reformation also. The Nicene councel. So where have I erred at francis, or spoke falsely?
---miche3754 on 11/12/08


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StevenG, a home church is still a church. It might consist of a small group but where two or more may be Christ is there also. Why? Because Christ is in you. No matter where you go He is present. He is present in the churches everywhere because in almost every institution there is true believer's and if they are there Christ is there.
We are told in Scripture to build churches where true believers can gather, and of course you will have a lot of imposters too.
All you have to do when imposters take over is leave. But you condemn all institutions and not all are bad. Stop condemning all of them and start helping those you can help.
---MarkV. on 11/12/08


Miche3754, What? You won't answer the most important question about your Bible?
Not frighten to know that Luther as a RC's Priest had Bibles with 73 books?
He leaves and starts another church with 66 book?

I quess it isn't money.
When it comes to money, people are not fooled as easily.
If a man left a bank with $10,000 and showed up with only $9,000 for his followers to use on their trip.
Everyone would stop him and question him! Where is the rest of the money?
What happened to the other $1,000?

I quess God's Words collected into a big Book isn't as important as money to some folks.
They question missing money, but not Divine Revelations by the Holy One God Almighty

They are happy to be SHORT CHANGED!
---Nicole on 11/12/08


mic,
I never insisted the rcc is man made.
In asking if the Words of God are irrelevent to you,this was very sarcastic...
I have offend you,I am sorry.

My Faith is in God.
I believe...
faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1
This Faith...
comes by Hearing,
hearing comes by the Word of God.
Rom10:7

No matter what...
I have no anger towards you.
I will follow that golden rule.
Matt7
Our Father loves you just the same...that's what matters to me to your response.

God Peace.
---char on 11/11/08


****
CHRIST IS THE CHURCH Matt16:13-19 Peter and His successors are the keepers of the Keys of His Authority.Twisting God's words will cause a knot in your tongue
****



rcc cannot reconcile their misunderstanding Matt 16 to Peter who was REBUKED just 2 verses later by Christ ...or was that line omitted in rcc's version of Gods Word?

Matt 16 is ONLY verse rcc uses to promote themselves from Gods Word programing their GROSS misunderstanding of simple verse to their subjects

rcc incessantly parrots Matt 16 never questioning why there are no other verses supporting this verse by "their understanding" then blatantly TWISTING Gods Truth by deliberately ignoring Christ as Rock
---Rhonda on 11/11/08


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MarkV: "StevenG, I am sorry you have no church. Sorry because you could be learning. You need to learn a whole lot since you don't even know that Jesus is God. Maybe to you He is not God, then you really need the Gospel of Jesus to bring you into the light. "

You don't get it, do you. That's ok since most Christians don't, meaning that the Christians ARE the church. It's people, not a building, a nonprofit corporation, or a denomination. A person does not need to join a man-made denominational "church." Chrisitans don't need a denomination to have a relationship with God, a relationship only through Jesus. It's you, Jesus, God: not you, denominaional "church," Jesus, God.
---Steveng on 11/11/08


MarkV: "I am sorry you have no church. Sorry because you could be learning. You need to learn a whole lot since you don't even know that Jesus is God. Maybe to you He is not God, then you really need the Gospel of Jesus to bring you into the light. "

As for learning, a Christian can learn more in one year by joining a home "church" than spending fifty years in a denominational "church." Do research of the benefits of a home "church." And while you're at it, do an online bible search for "one another" and "each other." Does your denominational church provide such intimate learning? Denominational "churches" rarely, if at all, get to the heart of God.
---Steveng on 11/11/08


The question is not 'Which church is Christ?' but 'What do we mean when we say 'church?' Obviously Christ is not the church of Satan, or of Mormon, or most of the other organizations. I would say that Christ does not belong to any organization. He represents the marginalized of society. Where nuns and priests go to minister in the darkest most hopeless places, there they find God's people.
---frances008 on 11/11/08


Miche, for all you claim to be so experienced about the world, and also about the Bible, you act like a child in telling everyone who disagrees with you that they are a liar. (And actually proving yourself to be one.) Nicole is speaking the truth about Paul and Jesus. Mark got his information from the apostle Peter who we presume knew what Jesus said. Paul writes his own words in his own hand.
---frances008 on 11/11/08


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Well, nicole, I am glad for you But those things do not get you into heaven.
The break Luther made was not just because of the priesthood, sister.
It was because Luther realized that the RCC had become a self seeking monster and not what Christ had intended it to be. The crimes committed by the RCC are unlimited.
They plotted to assasinate princes and Kings, and Queens, and anyone else that stood against them. To, me that is not Christ like.
I Praise God that I have never been a part of that. I also pray that God opens your eyes and Lets you know that Christ saves, and not the Church(rcc).
---miche3754 on 11/11/08


Thanks MarkV.
Beautiful thing, Our Father Loves us All.

Most on this blogs are confessing love for HIM...
how precious....He will have mercy on whomever He Chooses.

Regardless of Religion one is studying or in at the moment,that moment is HIS to work with as Author of Our Faith. whatever reason he has us where we are...His will is for ALL to be Saved,we must pray his will be done.

Our faith is in-Christ,not people themselves.In seeking,Father wants us humbled.He knows his truth,and spoke it out through the Holy Prophets,Apostles and His Son.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide, comfort and teach,All this is needed to love one another,somethings it hard from ourselves.
God's Peace.
---char on 11/11/08


Mark:-You forget CHRIST IS THE CHURCH Matt16:13-19 Peter and His successors are the keepers of the Keys of His Authority.Twisting God's words will cause a knot in your tongue , you use His Holy name to do the bidding of your master who lured you away, now you are ensconced, in the web of deceit, but to no avail but your destruction, unless you repent.
---Mic on 11/11/08


Miche/Char:- God was never ever wrong from Genesis to now its man's interpretation of what God says.You insist that the RCC is man made But You will never break the statement made BY Jesus"MY CHURCH"not you and the whole congregation of the inmates incascerated Behind those Gates -you still, while you have life, have hope. Use it or you will also wind up behind those gates to your detriment.I bear you no Malice just speak the naked truth.
---Mic on 11/11/08


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You have been shut up in a nunnery so You only know what they say.--miche3754

MATTHEW 16:13-19 - Jesus' Words and Promise is enough for me.

You also error in the 'nunnery department.
I was in a Convent, not a Monastery.

I took care of dying patients, whom mostly where Protestants.
I had to listen to their radio and TV Protestant Preachers all day long as I took care of them.
Faith comes from God.
The RCC forces no one to convert!

By the way, in the Monastery the lock is in the inside, controlled by the Nuns.
Not to keep them (Nuns) locked in like a Prison Cell.
They are capable of opening the door and walking out into the world.

No, it is to keep you (world) LOCKED OUT!
---Nicole on 11/11/08


Miche3754, there isn't any other Church, besides the Orthodox Churches.
Jesus only started One Church.
Reformation? Means to reform some thing that already Exist. To change in itself.
Luthers and the others didn't reform.
Reform is acceptable to Jesus. We must always examine ourselves.
But they didn't reform the Church. THEY STARTED another!

Even the Jewish People are puzzled at you?
No Jew left and told Moses we are starting another group. Numbers 12:2

RCC has all the Names of the Popes from Peter to Benedict XVI.
Even the NonChristian Historians backs the trace. No bias.
Orthodox is a Church, because they have the Priesthood traced by to Peter.

You don't because they have thrown OUT the PRIESTHOOD!
---Nicole on 11/11/08


Char it is Truth you speak. Something I wanted Ruben to grasp. Without the Truth they are lost. And the Truth can only be heard by those who are of the Truth.
The more I answer the more I know Christ has been replaced by the RCC. It is so obvious that almost all of their teachings concerns the church and not Christ. And since the Truth, the Word, is not Authoritive to them, they can follow the traditions of the RCC without feeling guilty. They even claim they created the Word of God, with no conviction in their hearts when they do answer. They are sold to a lie. There is only One Truth, and that is Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/11/08


nicole, if you can trace this back, then please do so. Prove it. I know in the Bible, there is no proof not one drop. Not even the passage you give about Peter. I know Peter is important, I am not denying any of that. I am denying that this so called power was only given to the RCC.
No where do I see anything not even in the Spirit that says what the RCC claims.
This claim is what caused the great reformation.
People started to see the truth. That Christ is the Way not the RCC.
False documents have always been printed to prove something because man lies. God is not a man and God does not lie. So, show me something in God's word that says the RCC received something from Peter that the other Churches didnt.
---miche3754 on 11/11/08


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Nicole,
Mistake?...We are all sinners...
Praise God we can pray for repentance and remission.
Few things for certain...
Our Father is the One and only God of the living...in the flesh or absent from the body...and...SOME don't BELIEVE He Exist...(very sad),Praise God...we do believe.
Mark16:16
Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved,whoever does not believe will be,condemed.

Believe(Gk word)sorry...only to emphasize.
Pisteuo=to have faith(pistis)in.

If ONE has faith In-Christ,he will be baptized.
ONE Without (believing),baptism means nothing to them,he for sure is condemed.
Our Faith without works is dead.Confessing(prayer) and acting (Baptism),comes Hand in Hand..
God's Peace.
---char on 11/11/08


nicole,
Im not assuming anything!
Its from the Bible the Word of God.
You call God a liar just as YOU call Paul a Liar?
What about Jesus coming to Paul on the road to Damascus? that was a halucination right? no WRONG!
How can you be a part of something that is a lie Built by man? Jesus did not say Catholic Church.
You have been shut up in a nunnery so You only know what they say. And the RCC is man, Not God, so they are capable of Lying.
NOWHERE in the Bible do you see Roman Catholic Church. You can deny, you can lie but you cant change God's word.
Emperor Constantine and the court of Nicene formed the RCC! James is the one who headed the RCC in the Beginning not Peter. Peter was dead and gone when the RCC started.
---miche3754 on 11/11/08


StevenG, I am sorry you have no church. Sorry because you could be learning. You need to learn a whole lot since you don't even know that Jesus is God. Maybe to you He is not God, then you really need the Gospel of Jesus to bring you into the light.
What I mean is understanding of who He is.
---MarkV. on 11/10/08


Ruben, here is the Truth. My interpretation of the Truth cannot be wrong. You see Truth is not subjective. It is not, you have the Truth and I have a different Truth. There is only One Truth. Here is Pilates conversation with Jesus, Pilate therefore said to Him, Are you a king? Jesus answered, you say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness of the Truth. Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice." Pilate ask Him, "what is the Truth?" Pilate was looking at the Truth right in front of him and could not recognize the Truth. There is only One Truth Ruben. That is why I know I have the right interpretation of the Truth.
---MarkV. on 11/10/08


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*Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be Saved.
And the same Spirit that cause Mark to write His gospel also said through St. Paul 1 Cor.1:17
---Lee1538 on 11/8/08

No,no,no,no!
Do you see how you are confusing yourself???

The same Spirit?
Are you serious?

Jesus is the one speaking not Mark!
Mark is quoting Jesus.

Paul is quoting himself.
Paul is writing himself.
Paul is speaking not Jesus.

I am sure the words in Mark 16:16 are in red ink in your Bible?
This is to remind you that Jesus is talking.
GOD IS TALKING NOT MAN.

1Cor 1:17 is written in black.
This should be a clue to you!

NO IT ISN'T THE SAME SPIRIT
---Nicole on 11/10/08


Char, God bless you as well.

I was speaking about how one is Saved.
Jesus states Baptism in Mark 16:16

I have seen you quoting from the Letters suggesting only beliefs is needed to be Saved such as Romans.
If you do believe Mark 16:16 of Baptism for Salvation as spoken by Jesus, then I am sorry.
It seemed to me you believe in the 'Sinner's Prayer' and no action of water in Baptism for Salvation.

I could be wrong, I have been wrong in the pass and I will be wrong in the future.

Peace
---Nicole on 11/10/08


Miche3754, it is the same RCC as in the Bible.
We can trace back the 'laying on the hands' from Benedict XVI to Peter from Jesus.

As to the Churches, they are all in Unity underneath the Holy See.
Many Churches because Jesus told them to go to all the Nations.

You assume this because this is how your Church and faith operates.
The 1st Baptist Church and the Freewill Baptist Church on opposite streets are indeed separate. No Unity.

Go to your phone book. Look underneath Catholic, all those Churches listed are under the HOLY SEE, located in Vatican City.
Next, look under Baptist. Are they united?

It is like twins.
My twin sister and I are from ONE EGG. But, now I live 30 miles from her.
---Nicole on 11/10/08


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