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Was The Virgin Mary Sinless

A young friend of mine who is Roman Catholic stated that the church teaches that the "Virgin Mary" was without sin. Is this correct, or was he mistaken?
(Just asking the question. Not trying to start a fight.)

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Well gregg, that is now the entire point. aty a given time there are no more words. so it dies out for some time.
---Andy on 5/27/09


Most of the forums have been quiet. Did I miss the rapture or something?
---gregg on 5/22/09


Mary was not created in Genesis. The conflict was not between Satan and The Woman but between Satan and the "seed" of the woman - indicating a virgin birth. Jesus is the only sinless person, therefore Mary could not be sinless. The One who was once her son is now her Lord. Mary was a chosen vessel of God and deserves all the honor associated with that but she is not nor ever was divine.
---Stan on 5/12/09


You previously asked if God was married. I replied along the lines-God is not man so cannot marry in the human sense but is married to His followers.
Isaiah 54:5 & Jer. 31:32 Jesus 'bride' Rev. 21:9 & 22:17.
---Warwick on 5/7/09
It answers/marks ur knowledge on subject and evasion.
Isa 54:
5 For your Maker is your husband LORD Almighty is his name Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, he is called God of all earth.
6 The LORD will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your God.
<
Ur careful not to post, or didn't see WHO the originating/finished "MARRIAGE" was too?
So that some might see I'll post
---Trav on 5/11/09


I agreed with your post ---Vicki and your post does speak for itself however those who are blinded will remain blind.
---mima on 5/11/09




If Mary was sinless, why did we need Jesus? Why couldn't Mary just be our savior then? I think that speaks for itself. She was sexually pure before she birthed Jesus. After that, the Bible doesn't say.
---Vicki on 5/9/09


Thanks Gregg. I had forgotten that.

I am so busy polishing my brass soldiers which Scott sent me, that I don't have much thinking time.
---Warwick on 5/8/09


Warwick

In regards to marriage, you can also read the entire Song of Solomon, there is a great picture of the bride and bridegroom.
---Gregg on 5/8/09


Sorry, I am not understanding. I read Gen. can you explain more about Mary being a creation. The only creation I see is Adam. Confusing please help. Any ideas how to explain my second question. I don't have an explanation for it.
---Kuma on 5/8/09


Kuma:-What sins did you inherit from your parents or does anyone for that matter.Original sin is the sin of disobedience which is placed by God on Humanity for the sin of disobedience by OUR 1st Parents A & E.This is erased by Baptism and is not communicable.Since "The woman" (Eve 2, Later Mary) conceived By God in Genesis 3:15and propelled by time,at His discreation,into humanity she is still without sin.It is worthy to note Almighty God in Genesis Takes the woman out of Adam but reverses the role for Adam2 taking HIM out of Eve2 when the word was made Flesh.Thus Producing a Incarnate God man.JC
---MIC on 5/7/09




Trav a problem with this site is that not all things submitted, appear.

You previously asked if God was married. I replied along the lines-God is not man so cannot marry in the human sense but is married to His followers.

You asked a question 'Show scriptures of the marriage you are referring to above witnessing your interpretation', which I took to mean you wanted me to supply Scriptures about this 'marriage.' I did so, however they were not posted, so I will try again:

Isaiah 54:5 & Jer. 31:32 the word here 'husband' in Hebrew is 'ba'all.'meaning to rule over, husband, marry, depending upon context.

Plus of course we are called Jesus 'bride' Rev. 21:9 & 22:17.

I trust this answers your question.
---Warwick on 5/7/09


Kuma-Only:-I explain Gen3:15. 1.God creates sinless humans A & E.2 Satan destroys Gods intent.God is not to be denied as His 'WILL',will be done.3 God is displeased and addresses each one. a,Satan telling him for his interference he would suffer consequences Quote"I will put enmities between THEE and THE WOMAN"Gen3:14-15 and continues"Thy seed and her seed She shall crush thy head,and you shall lie in wait for her heel"This woman who is not yet introduced shows up according to the prophecy in Luke126-28.Since she is conceived by God in Genesis as were A & E both sinless humans it must follow that what God creates is also sinless,no matter when her introduction to the world.He then speaks to EVE and Adam Gen3:16-19
---MIC on 5/7/09


Questions such as these are silly...Please don't waste yours or anyone else's time with matters such as these. It's call FAITH, pure and simple.
---Chuck on 5/7/09


Trav, are you serious or having a bit of fun?
God is obviously not married to us in the human physical sense but is so spiritually. In that He is joined to us, by His decision and will not be the one to walk away from this 'marriage.'
---Warwick on 5/5/09

Serious. Serious as death.

I asked if GOD was ever married?? Ever in the History of world. Witnessed. And to who.

Show scriptures of the marriage you are referring to above witnessing your interpretation.
---Trav on 5/6/09

Where are you sir warwick?
---Trav on 5/7/09


Mic,

Can you please explain further how Mary was created in Gen 3. And I am wondering how to explain how Mary did not get the sins of her parents.
---Kuma on 5/6/09


Trav:

Islam very strongly insists that Jesus was NOT God's son, because they believe that it is impossible for God to have a son.

This is one core belief that makes Islam and Christianity totally irreconcilable.
---StrongAxe on 5/5/09

Thanks StrongAxe. This gives another witness to what scripture states.

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:6-8
And so it has been. All the other covenants have been filled....as this seed of Isaac has been a blessing even to the Ishmael side. Were we/me not so decieved and blinded for so many years it would hit us between the eyes....nightly when we give obedience to the t.v.
---Trav on 5/6/09


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Mima:-Are you spiritual?You say impossibility b/c you do NOT acknowledge the power of Almighty God.Is Jesus GOD Did not mary bring Forth Jesus by the POWER of the H/S- when the word was made flesh? so was Jesus man or GOD-BOTH-Incarnate.If Mary brought HIM (Jesus) forth is she,then not His Mother?JESUS had a mother as a human do you disagree with this?as such does she not deserve your respect.You deviate from the point who is talking about Blood washing away sins.You made a statement "Mary was with sin"You therefore equate God with sin hence I referred you to REV,22:18 as you bear false witness against this most pure and sinless person created in Gen.3:15 by GOD.
---MIC on 5/6/09


Trav, are you serious or having a bit of fun?
God is obviously not married to us in the human physical sense but is so spiritually. In that He is joined to us, by His decision and will not be the one to walk away from this 'marriage.'
---Warwick on 5/5/09

Serious. Serious as death.

I asked if GOD was ever married?? Ever in the History of world. Witnessed. And to who.

Show scriptures of the marriage you are referring to above witnessing your interpretation.
---Trav on 5/6/09


Mic in this statement,"Mima do not condemn The Mother of God You will regret it.REV22:18" you accuse me of an impossibility. God has no mother!! Therefore it would be impossible for Mary to be the Mother of God. Mary is the mother of physical Jesus but not spiritual Jesus. Spiritual Jesus existed with God from the beginning. We must remember that Jesus was fully man(physical Jesus) and fully God(spiritual Jesus). Your devotion to Mary is admirable from a human point of view. But it is totally wrong. Mary's blood cannot wash away anyone's sins including her own.
---mima on 5/6/09


Mima/Kuma:-1John,1:5-10says This is the message, God is lightand in him there is no darkness at all. If we have no fellowship with him,while we are walking in the darkness,we lie and do not do what is true. If wesay we have no sin we deceive ourselves. if the light is not in you.Now consider The FACTS The angel appeared to mary.Lk1:28-37She is bewildered but when the explaination of the angel is satisfactory to hershe agrees "Be it done unto me according to your word"Would an angel come from Heaven with a message from God, If Mary was walking in darkness? Mima do not condemn The Mother of God You will regret it.REV22:18
---MIC on 5/5/09


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William.P:-You need to revisit your post.!. B/c you offer no biblical validity for your statement.2 You say God equates Himself with sin by using a sinful person for the introduction of His son.again no Biblical authority.Where does the Bible state that the "Immaculate Conception"was based on the fact of Her Husband not touching her .It says "she conceived BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" People who write here should be aware that to transgress His Holy word is being a False prophet.ARE YOU?
---MIC on 5/5/09


"Question I have been struggling with-How did Mary not receive the sins of her parents? "
---Kuma on 5/2/09

To believe that Mary was sinless is to believe that this verse in 1st. John 10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Out to be a lie!!!! Hardly a good position to be in.

---mima on 5/5/09


Trav:

Islam very strongly insists that Jesus was NOT God's son, because they believe that it is impossible for God to have a son.

This is one core belief that makes Islam and Christianity totally irreconcilable.
---StrongAxe on 5/5/09


Trav, are you serious or having a bit of fun?

God is obviously not married to us in the human physical sense but is so spiritually. In that He is joined to us, by His decision and will not be the one to walk away from this 'marriage.'
---Warwick on 5/5/09


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The idea that God was married so as to have a son is an Islamic idea.
---Warwick on 5/1/09

The question: Was GOD married? Yes? No?


Who was he married too?

---Trav on 5/4/09


Ruben, you said "which genuine believers?" Is there many other kind? I believe Ruben there are only one kind.
Yes, You are correct, there is no passage that states, "Scripture is final authority." I don't think there has to be. Jesus answered with the word of God even to the devil. He said it is written. Jesus taught biblical inerrancey, so either He knew inerrancy to be true, or He knew it to be false but catered to the ignorance of His hearers. If Jesus knew inerrancy was false but taught otherwise, He was guilty of deception and could not be a sinless being, therefore, He was unable to provide a sinless atonement for our sins. So do you take what Jesus taught or you don't?
---MarkV. on 5/4/09


MarkV.* Ruben, the Church of the living God in 1 Tim. 3:15 that he speaks of is made up of all genuine believers who are baptized unto one body where Jesus is the Head of that body.

Which genuine believers? So it does not matter what you believe in? OSAS, Sabbath worship! You can lose your Salvation...etc...etc..

MarkV.* As to what you ask for someone to give you one passage where it says only Scripture should be use, the reason for this is that man's flesh is not yet redeemed. He fails for everyone comes short of the glory of God. So no man can be trusted. Only the Word of God is truth.

In short you are saying there is no scripture that tell us it is the sole authorithy, I agree!
---Ruben on 5/3/09


Question I have been struggling with-How did Mary not receive the sins of her parents?
---Kuma on 5/2/09


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Mary was sinner, but was looked with upon with favor by God, this belief by those within the Roman Catholic religion about Mary, is not based on the Bible but on the "Cathacism of the Catholic Church", which is a book that was written by the Roamn Catholics, contains all the Popes edicts/confrences on how they were to approach Biblical topics and also contains the philioshy of their faith. The Bible states that the "Immaculant Conception" is really the fact that her husband Joseph never touched her, The spirit of God put the baby Jesus in her womb, so that he was without sin. This is why the Bible states that Jesus is part of God and the Trinity: Father(God), Son(Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost(Spirit).

William P.
---William on 5/3/09


So that Jesus would not inherit the sin of Adam, as all humans do, it was necessary that he be born of not one but two sinless parents. His father, God, of course was and is sinless. His mother, Mary, also needed to be sinless. This is why God protected and preserved her from the sin of Adam when she was conceived in the womb of St. Elizabeth, her mother. Mary indeed is the Immaculate Conception! Oh ye who call yourselves Christians and who do not love Mary, the mother of Christians!
---Victor on 5/2/09


Trav congratulations on your new understandable style of writing, no longer code!
The idea that God was married so as to have a son is an Islamic idea.
---Warwick on 5/1/09

Thank you very much. Your approval is important to so many. You are notably imbued with Islamic knowledge.

Was GOD divorced?

Jeremiah 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD, for I am married unto you:

---Trav on 5/2/09


Well said. And with the above being said....was GOD married? Who too? Play along based with your statements above.
---Trav on 5/1/09
Trav, how can Warwick be right in another blog you disagree with him using the same method scripture is the ultimate authorithy?
---Ruben on 5/1/09
Scripture witnessing scripture is ultimate.
Opinion with scripture is talk doctrine.
Point..if he really believes this...(he doesn't).....he would answer marriage question. (He won't,he's not alone in this). Knowing I will use two or many witnessing scriptures. He is fearful scripture will witness something he cannot deal with.
He comments on my writing style which will be coded if you are not applying scriptural witness as the binder.
---Trav on 5/2/09


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Ruben, the Church of the living God in 1 Tim. 3:15 that he speaks of is made up of all genuine believers who are baptized unto one body where Jesus is the Head of that body. It is not speaking about a building or congregation. That is true because in the beginning he tells them how to conduct themselves. In a visible building there is tares and wheat. Only the true believers make up the Church of Christ. The tares are not included.
As to what you ask for someone to give you one passage where it says only Scripture should be use, the reason for this is that man's flesh is not yet redeemed. He fails for everyone comes short of the glory of God. So no man can be trusted. Only the Word of God is truth.
---MarkV. on 5/1/09


Trav congratulations on your new understandable style of writing, no longer code!

The idea that God was married so as to have a son is an Islamic idea.

We are given more than a clue in Hebrews 10:5 '...but a body you prepared for me.' A human body, born of Mary. See Colossians 2:9 'For in Christ the fulness of the deity lives in bodily form.'

As shown before, Scripture says Jesus is fully God (Spirit), and fully man,(body).

Jesus, member of the Godhead is not the son of God but The Son, not a son in human terms, obviously, He being eternal, not created. In fact Jesus is the Creator of all things. He as part of the Godhead, 'the Word', the one who said 'Let us make man in our image.' Note that Trav 'let us...'
---Warwick on 5/1/09


Acts 10:42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


Mima, here TOO is an example of the Word clearly understood. Whosoever will, before spoken by the Prophets, the Holy Spirit given AFTER the Gospel is preached ...

One would have to be suffering from a terrible case of Schitzophrania or a processing learning disability to miss this!
---kathr4453 on 5/1/09


Here is an example of Scripture which interprets itself.

First John 2:23," Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"

Notice how this eliminates the orthodox Jew, the Jehovah witness, the Moslems, all of which claim they have the father but in fact they deny openly the son.
---mima on 5/1/09


But scripture also says "21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. "(MT 7:21-23) Just because you know the Son and the Father does not mean you are going to Heaven, does scripture interprets scripture?
---Ruben on 5/1/09


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Scripture is the ultimate authority. No man's non-Scriptural tradition overrules Scripture.
---Warwick on 4/30/09

Well said. And with the above being said....was GOD married? Who too? Play along based with your statements above.
---Trav on 5/1/09


Trav, how can Warwick be right in another blog you disagree with him using the same method scripture is the ultimate authorithy?
---Ruben on 5/1/09


Does anyone imagine what the apostles preached contradicted what they wrote?

Any tradition, no matter who holds it, is not of God if it contradicts Scripture, it becomes that spoken of in Col. 2:8.

Scripture is the ultimate authority. No man's non-Scriptural tradition overrules Scripture.
---Warwick on 4/30/09

Well said. And with the above being said....was GOD married? Who too? Play along based with your statements above.
---Trav on 5/1/09


Scripture is the ultimate authority. No man's non-Scriptural tradition overrules Scripture.
---Warwick on 4/30/09

I am still waiting for that one verse that says scripture is the ultimate authorithy. The Bible it self tell us " which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."(1 Tim 3:15) Lets make one thing clear the RCC Tradition does not overrules scripture, they go hand in hand!
---Ruben on 5/1/09


Warwich, are correct. Only what the apostles passed down is what is in Authoritive, which is Scripture. What I try to convey to Ruben that by Scripture interpreting Scripture, only the word of God can correct any concepts anyone might have.
--MarkV. on 4/30/09

But who tell us what Jesus really meant, why is ours or Warwick interpretation correct over mine. example in Jhn 3:5 Jesus said " you must be Born again"" we both get different meaning of the scripture. Who's correct yours or mine, you go by your interpretation and I will go by Sacred Tradition of the living church (1 Tim 3:15) the Early Church Fathers were unanimous on what he meant and some were taught by the Apostles and they all taught he meant water baptism!
---Ruben on 5/1/09


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Here is an example of Scripture which interprets itself.

First John 2:23," Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"

Notice how this eliminates the orthodox Jew, the Jehovah witness, the Moslems, all of which claim they have the father but in fact they deny openly the son. Therefore the above Scripture plainly states that they do not have the father. In fact the only way to have the father is to acknowledge the son!!!
---mima on 5/1/09


"In the case of honor you father and mother, that is true, we obey only when it is morally right. If they say kill someone, we know we cannot honor that because God judges us by our moral actions."
---MarkV. on 4/30/09
Jesus said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Is every word God ever uttered in Scriptures?
Consider Abraham and Isaac, there is no sola nothing there and "moraly right" or wrong had nothing to do with Abaham's faith and obedience.
---Nana on 4/30/09


Kathr, you are always confuse. I would like to answer your question tomorrow for it is late now, but not to help you but for others to know the Truth. Nothing anyone gives you will help your confusion because your intends are wrong, they are not to glorify Christ but yourself.
---MarkV. on 4/30/09


Warwich, you are correct. Only what the apostles passed down is what is in Authoritive, which is Scripture. What I try to convey to Ruben that by Scripture interpreting Scripture, only the word of God can correct any concepts anyone might have. Which means that only Scripture has final authority. This concept was introduced by the Reformers because leaders from the RCC were interpreting passage out of context and in order for anyone to get a correct answer, only the Bible could be use to judge what is correct. The RCC did not go by those rules since they believe in Scripture and RCC's traditions. And many times Churches traditions were wrong.
---MarkV. on 4/30/09


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I believe the point some are missing is that no tradition, whether it be the teaching of the apostles, or latter traditions of men (such as RCC traditions) will contradict Scripture, if it is from God.

See 2 Th. 2:15 where Paul writes of the, teachings (traditions) we passed on to you whether by word of mouth or letter.

Does anyone imagine what the apostles preached contradicted what they wrote?

Any tradition, no matter who holds it, is not of God if it contradicts Scripture, it becomes that spoken of in Col. 2:8.

Scripture is the ultimate authority. No man's non-Scriptural tradition overrules Scripture.
---Warwick on 4/30/09


Nana, sola Scriptura means Scripture interprets Scripture.

---MarkV. on 4/30/09


No it does not, it means the Bible is the sole authorithy of faith and morals(Bible Alone). If so many people that believe in that tradition of men why is it that so many cannot agree on a particular verse. Is it still Sabbath or Sunday,rapture or not, and here one that hits home for you OSAS. Speaking about OSAS both sides have use scripture, so how can scripture interpret scipture if both sides can throw scripture at each other. Who determines which is right, because both cannot be right nor wrong?
---Ruben on 4/30/09


***Nana, sola Scriptura means Scripture interprets Scripture. When reading the word and you find yourself stuck because you believed someone who said in such passage you will find it, but you believe otherwise, the method to use is sola Scriptura. Find all the passages that deal with the subject and if other passages teach the opposite of what you though, then you have read the passage incorrectly.MarkV***


MarkV, I'm confused by your statement here. Why don't YOU practice what you preach.

I asked you to find where anyone RE: Cornelius etc, were Born Again FITST before they heard the Gospel...you REFUSE to answere and do not follow your own advice. What gives you the right to advise others what you yourself refuse to obey?
---kathr4453 on 4/30/09


Nana, sola Scriptura means Scripture interprets Scripture. When reading the word and you find yourself stuck because you believed someone who said in such passage you will find it, but you believe otherwise, the method to use is sola Scriptura. Find all the passages that deal with the subject and if other passages teach the opposite of what you though, then you have read the passage incorrectly. Because Scripture does not contradict, the word of God will bring light to itself.
In the case of honor you father and mother, that is true, we obey only when it is morally right. If they say kill someone, we know we cannot honor that because God judges us by our moral actions.
---MarkV. on 4/30/09


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Many of the answers given to you are so clear. Sola Scriptora was a great example of man looking for the Truth by studying the Truth. Scripture interprets Scripture. When one passage is not clear, other passages bring light to that passage which was not clear.
---MarkV. on 4/29/09

Mark if Sola Scriptura is a great example and scripture interprets itself, why is it that so many of you who believe in sola scriptura cannot agree among yourselves?
---Ruben on 4/29/09


Warwick * What? If Scripture does not say that it is or isn't all we need, how can believing Scripture is all we need, be contradicting Scripture? It is not contradicting anything in Scripture is it?

And all I ask was one verse that says scripture is all we need, just one!


Warwick * You wrote 'But RCC Sacred Tradition taught by Peter and the Apostles does not contradict scripture therefore is of 2 TH.'

Please tell me a few of these unique RCC traditions. By unique I mean RCC traditions which other Christians do not accept. And show me where they are found in Scripture. Otherwise they are just men's ideas.

First show me where in scripture which traditions was Paul talking about in 2 TH 2:15!
---Ruben on 4/29/09


This 'Sola scriptura' thing ...
Scripture says, "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

Along the lines of 'honor', I was brought up and trained to obey my parents. But my parents every word were not Scriptures. Actually, their Scripture use was almost nil.

How then is "sola scriptura" valid???
---Nana on 4/29/09


Ruben,---MarkV,---Warwick
Reading your responses to one another brings to mind this thought, let us all, in prayer, seek to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Let us ask God to gently show us if we are blind and to show us the way if such be the case. Let us not oppose each other for the sake of opposition but rather let us try to hear God's guidance!
---mima on 4/29/09


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Ruben, you are a good man, I see you answering though with the same questions over and over. You don't want to accept the Word of God as your guide, God's very Word. you rather listen to sinful man and his traditions. The danger in that is that you have no excuse though when it comes to Salvation. The Bible mentions a few times of those who have already known about the Truth and reject it, will receive a greater punishment then those who have never heard it before.
Many of the answers given to you are so clear. Sola Scriptora was a great example of man looking for the Truth by studying the Truth. Scripture interprets Scripture. When one passage is not clear, other passages bring light to that passage which was not clear.
---MarkV. on 4/29/09


Ruben I asked 'How does Sola Scriptura, which means Scripture is all we need, contradict Scripture?'

You replied 'Because nowhere in scripture does it say, it is all we need!'

What? If Scripture does not say that it is or isn't all we need, how can believing Scripture is all we need, be contradicting Scripture? It is not contradicting anything in Scripture is it?

You wrote 'But RCC Sacred Tradition taught by Peter and the Apostles does not contradict scripture therefore is of 2 TH.'

Please tell me a few of these unique RCC traditions. By unique I mean RCC traditions which other Christians do not accept. And show me where they are found in Scripture. Otherwise they are just men's ideas.
---Warwick on 4/29/09


As I understand it a simplified answer would be that Godly men decided what would be in the OT. The primary guide to them was to accept those books from which Jesus and the apostles quoted, or alluded. For example Jesus and the apostles quoted from the book of Genesis 200 times, as historical reality.

As Jesus is the Creator, the Word of God I give to Him the ability to know what was from God and what not.
---Warwick on 4/24/09

Which Godly men decided which books belong in the OT? As you should know Jesus and the Apostles did not quote every book in the OT. And nowhere does it tell us which books belong in the Bible!
---Ruben on 4/27/09


How does Sola Scriptura, which means Scripture is all we need, contradict Scripture?

---Warwick on 4/24/09


Because nowhere in scripture does it say, it is all we need!
---Ruben on 4/27/09


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RC sacred tradition, as taught by various Popes, does contradict Scripture therefore is not that of 2 Th.

What Jesus said, that not recorded, would not contradict what was written, as you already admit.
---Warwick on 4/24/09


But RCC Sacred Tradition taught by Peter and the Apostles does not contradict scripture therefore is of 2 TH.

And what was not written because a book would not be able to hold it, was taught by the Apostles and pass on unless you are admiting what Jesus said, that was not recorded is not important
---Ruben on 4/27/09


Ruben you sure are a sucker for punishment!

How does Sola Scriptura, which means Scripture is all we need, contradict Scripture?

You wrote 'Ok, going by Sola scriptura(Bible Alone), where in the OT or NT does it give us a list of the Canonical Books'

As I understand it a simplified answer would be that Godly men decided what would be in the OT. The primary guide to them was to accept those books from which Jesus and the apostles quoted, or alluded. For example Jesus and the apostles quoted from the book of Genesis 200 times, as historical reality.

As Jesus is the Creator, the Word of God I give to Him the ability to know what was from God and what not.
---Warwick on 4/24/09


Ruben the NT was written by The Spirit's inspiration, while countless witnesses to the events, and the oral tradition, lived!

The OT & NT is no haphazard collection of books but His story, consistent throughout.

'Warwick * Real sacred tradition (2 Th.2:15) is that which was taught by the apostles, which they received from Jesus, and which was written by them under the inspiration of God.'

We have done this to death. You agreed the apostolic traditions/teachings would not contradict what was written.

RC sacred tradition, as taught by various Popes, does contradict Scripture therefore is not that of 2 Th.

What Jesus said, that not recorded, would not contradict what was written, as you already admit.
---Warwick on 4/24/09


Warwick * Ruben what you call 'sacred tradition' is, only pronouncements of men which contradict Scripture.

Which is what Sola Scriptura is!

Warwick * Putting Sola Scriptura aside any sacred tradition must compliment, and not contradict Scripture. Agreed?

Ok, going by Sola scriptura(Bible Alone), where in the OT or NT does it give us a list of the Canonical Books"

Warwick * Real sacred tradition (2 Th.2:15) is that which was taught by the apostles, which they received from Jesus, and which was written by them under the inspiration of God.

2 Th 2:15 does not say only written and already mention not everything he said or did was written. What Jesus said or did important? Y or N

God bless you too!
---Ruben on 4/24/09


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Ruben,

At this point Im going to follow Warwick, I do not wish to argue you into submission, but you are being very blind, and its a deliberate blindness. The rcc does very much go against scripture and you close your eyes to it so that you dont have to admit to any of it. So always remember you were told the truth.
---wayne on 4/23/09


The Catholic Church has canonized the Bible, therefore they believe it is the inspired word of God. They assembled the scriptures to make what we now call the Bible. They stand behind it as truth, and we know it's suitable for teaching, reproof, correcting, and training in righteousness.

So do you deny what the church canonized as God's truth? Do you reject, the scriptures that the Lord quoted many times during His ministry here on Earth? Do you accept what your church declared as truth, or do you reject what your church declared as truth. The Word of God was here before any of us were created, and as such is HE is the only infallible Being.
---Gregg on 4/23/09


Ruben what you call 'sacred tradition' is, sadly, only pronouncements of men which contradict Scripture.

Putting Sola Scriptura aside any sacred tradition must compliment, and not contradict Scripture. Agreed?

Real sacred tradition (2 Th.2:15) is that which was taught by the apostles, which they received from Jesus, and which was written by them under the inspiration of God.

Wayne is correct as RC doctrine, supposedly sacred tradition, does indeed violate Scripture, therefore it does not go 'hand in hand' with God's word.

Ruben I would prefer we leave it at that as my desire is not to argue you into submission, but to get you to seriously consider the eternal peril you are in.

God bless you.
---Warwick on 4/23/09


So even if your tradition violates scripture????? Rcc traditions for the most part violates scripture, so how are they going hand in hand????
---wayne on 4/23/09


Because the Rcc Traditions does not violates scripture, they only violates wayne interpretation of scripture, Big different!
---Ruben on 4/23/09


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Of course not, but to claim as you do "Bible Only" is not truth, as you just said Jesus is Truth. So my point is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition..Both go hand and hand!
---Ruben on 4/23/09
So even if your tradition violates scripture????? Rcc traditions for the most part violates scripture, so how are they going hand in hand????
---wayne on 4/23/09


Ruben you continue to evade the point.

Of course everything that Jesus said could not be written down. However as Jesus is Truth would He have said anything which contradicted that which His apostles were inspired to write?

Answer please.
---Warwick on 4/22/09

Of course not, but to claim as you do "Bible Only" is not truth, as you just said Jesus is Truth. So my point is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition..Both go hand and hand!
---Ruben on 4/23/09


Why do you assume that anything Jesus said would contradict what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write-2 Tim 3:16 'All Scripture is given by inspirtion of God...'
---Warwick on 4/21/09

I don't, but Jesus said so many things not written down (Jhn 21:25), my question to you is why believe in Sola Scriptura(Bible Alone)? 1 Tim 3:16 say "all" and not "only"
---Ruben on 4/23/09


Why do you imagine they are speaking of teachings which contradict that which the Holy spirit inspired them to write?
---Warwick on 4/17/09


Why do you imagine they are speaking of teaching only what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write?
---Ruben on 4/23/09


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very confusing,
"Again. Mary was NOT concieved in the womb sinless.
Mary was SAVED at conception in the womb."
In fact both thoughts are the same.---mima

I will try to break down better.

NOT conceived in the womb isn't the same as being SAVED in the womb.

You cook a cake in the oven.
You don't make a cake in the oven.

Every item is mixed together and placed in a pan which is placed in the oven. Now it is ready to be baked.

If you don't mixed the ingredients before putting them into the oven it will not turn out into a cake, but a big mess.

Mary was put together by a sperm and an egg.
Then God placed the soul into stained flesh and Saved it at the same time.
---Natalie2 on 4/23/09


Ruben you continue to evade the point.

Of course everything that Jesus said could not be written down. However as Jesus is Truth would He have said anything which contradicted that which His apostles were inspired to write?

Answer please.
---Warwick on 4/22/09


Ruben you give these quotations ( 1 Co. 11.2 etc) as if they speak of secret teachings, when in fact they are speaking of what the apostles received from Jesus, and taught! It was not only taught verbally but written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the generations to come. We have that, it is the New Testament!
---Warwick on 4/17/09

We have the Nt, yes that is true, but where does it say that everything was written down.
---Ruben on 4/22/09


Warwick:-"Salvation in the herafter" with your conclusive statement in the form of a question. Do I not believe,that Jesus alone saves us from our sins?While Jesus saves us from our sins by showing us HOW the onus is on us b/c he showed us how to avoid sin and also left us with The sacrament of Penance with His representative.Salvation is NOT IN THIS LIFE, b/c if it was you would be assured of your destny.This you do not know so we live our lives Trust in His word and HOPE for salvation in the hereafter.JESUS died for mankind to open the gates of HEAVEN which were Closed by Mans sinfulness.That is why OSAS is False.
---MIC on 4/21/09


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Mic you wrote 'or what you call salvation in the Hereafter.'

Do I understand you do not believe that Jesus our 'great God and Saviour'(Titus 2:13) alone saves us from our sins?
---Warwick on 4/21/09


Ruben you wrote 'Then you should have no problem to give book,chapter and verse, where the Holy Spirit gave the number of books and names of them in the NT?'

I do not follow you? Please explain.

'Because Joh himself said "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.'

Why do you assume that anything Jesus said would contradict what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write-2 Tim 3:16 'All Scripture is given by inspirtion of God...'
---Warwick on 4/21/09


Ruben you give these quotations ( 1 Co. 11.2 etc) as if they speak of secret teachings, when in fact they are speaking of what the apostles received from Jesus, and taught! It was not only taught verbally but written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the generations to come. We have that, it is the New Testament!
---Warwick on 4/17/09


Then you should have no problem to give book,chapter and verse, where the Holy Spirit gave the number of books and names of them in the NT?
---Ruben on 4/20/09


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