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Should Christians Be Perfect

How concerned should a Christian be with being "perfect" and does the degree of perfection reached by a Christian affect his/her ministries?

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 ---Mima on 10/29/07
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Thank you Carla:-Really I was not being contentious but Brief,and explainatory in my own little way:-(
---MIC on 1/26/09


Ooops! Let's look at this: "however, if our heart is not penitent and sincere, God will not be forgiving, and you will go to hell, if you are not converted again."---This was an incomplete thought, and is contradictory to the first part of my statement, it should read, "however, if we make a conscious choice to do wrong, and our heart is not penitent and sincere, God will not be forgiving, and you will go to hell, if you are not converted again."
---TRU-DOG on 1/26/09


The Christian perfection is about the heart, which is the intent or motive of the will, -I don't think, if you sin inadvertently, or not on purpose, or overtly, it would be culpable or penal, -we are not infinitely jurisprudent, and adjudicate with infinite precision or exactness, however, if our heart is not penitent and sincere, God will not be forgiving, and you will go to hell, if you are not converted again.
---TRU-DOG on 1/25/09


*I would concede that we do a lot of things out of a lack of knowledge or because we are unaware, however, this is not the same as a conscious choice to do wrong, there is a difference between sin's of "ignorance", and, sin's that are overt, -to not know or to be ignorant and unaware, is not sin that incurrs penalty, they are non-penal, because we are not infinitely juisprudent, we could do things, and be imperfect in this sense, God is not trying to get us on a technicality.
---TRU-DOG on 1/24/09


Pat :-Your first 2 sentences are spot on and well said.But with regards to the rest it is all worldly and of little value in the Life hereafter.This perfection is to prepare us for the next stage of Life,which is inevitable.
---Mic on 1/15/09

In the same breath that's exactly what pat is saying is it not are people actually reading some of the posts written or just being contentious?
---Carla3939 on 1/18/09




MarkV, The "Grace" of God is not some "Divine-Favor" that allows you to sin with impunity, that is an excuse to sin.
---TRU-DOG on 1/17/09


Manny, that was an awesome answer. That is what perfect means. No question about it. If we define perfect any other way then no one is perfect. For all sin and come short of the glory of God. And that perfection only God has. That is what should be taught to all those who are believers already. No one should teach imperfection. All Christians are called to obey, not to disobey. And all have the Spirit to help them obey.
Yet, we have to be careful in not believing that our works of good deeds saves us. Pelagianism teaches that man must do something to receive the gift of God and have focused more on the work and will of man than the mercy and Grace of the Lord. Sinful men can only receive eternal life as a gift, not as a reward.
---MarkV. on 1/17/09


Tru-Dog & Manny ~ Yes Tru-Dog, what Manny said is great and very Biblical. Great thoughts and references Manny, and very clearly expressed.
---Anne on 1/16/09


Everyone has my permission to believe whatever they want :))
---Paul2 on 1/16/09


Anne, Look at Manny's thoughts and ideas...they are great!
---TRU-DOG on 1/16/09




Paul2:-Your concept of life is from day to day,thats fine.The walk from Point A to B is different to others, would you deny them that RIGHT using YOUR terms of Immaturity paranoid, fanatic and any other negative adjectives you can think up to keep your 24 hour theoretical ship afloat.All people are different The frivilous, the serious, the thinkers, and the doers.The bible was left for mans benefit, if you do not choose to use it thats is ok too.But there are many who do adhere to the word of God b/c they see the value in what God wants us to do.Sorry you do not have that desire of storing up treasures in heaven and live from day to day.
---Mic on 1/16/09


Mic perfection does not bring immaturity but being paranoid about it makes a person immature.

Why do so many complicate the issues and dwell about so many things: tribulation, perfection and all the items that create paranoia.

I concentrate on day to day living and events that take place and don't dig in the Bible to see when the end is near and all that upsetting stuff.
---Paul2 on 1/16/09


(1)
Man has a saying, "nobody's perfect" and we have come to believe it. But, let's not use man's understanding of what is perfect, rather, let's read in the bible what being perfect means? And has there been any man who was perfect?

First, in Mat.5:48 we are commanded to be perfect, "even as your father which is in heaven is perfect." I don't think anybody will dispute that God is a sensible God. He will not give a command that He knows NO ONE can obey... therefore, we must believe that perfection is attainable.

And what evidence do we have that perfection (biblically) can be attained by man?
(continued)
---manny on 1/15/09


(2)
"...Noah was a just man and PERFECT..."(Gen.6:9)
"..whose name was Job, and that man was PERFECT..."(Job1:1)
"...we speak wisdom among them that are PERFECT..."(1Cor.2:6).

So, what is being perfect according to the bible?

"As for God, his way is perfect..." (2Sam.22:31) -- God's WAY is perfect. That's why He said to Abraham, "walk before me, and be thou perfect." (Gen.17:1)

To be perfect is to walk before God, to walk in His way. What is this WAY?
(continued)
---manny on 1/15/09


(3)
"..I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Jhn.14:6) --To be perfect is to walk in Jesus Christ... to "walk in the spirit" (Gal.5:16). God's words are spirit and life (Job.6:63). So, to walk in Jesus Christ is to walk in His words -- to obey His words.

"There was... a priest named Zacharias...and his wife..was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, WALKING in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." (Luk.1:6)

Hence, to be perfect is to WALK... to OBEY ALL of God's commandments.
---manny on 1/15/09


Pau12:-Quest?Does 'Perfection bring insecurity?I agree then He/She should resort to some form of self examination.I also enjoy blissful contented sleep,enjoy a peaceful happy life surrounded with a large family of abour 60 I am a catholic from Birth, have no hangups.NEVER question the sanity of another fellow man, who BTW, is entitled to Free expression same as you are.I serve Jesus and live by His invite in Him as He lives in me.Go in Peace Jn6:56
---Mic on 1/15/09


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If a person keeps hammering about "perfection" and seems so insecure about it, s/he should do some self examination.

I try to live a good life, be kind, etc but I don't spend most of the day wondering if I'm perfect. My destination is to please God but don't become paranoid about it.

I suspect some pastors tend to over strees some issues to keep their flock going to their church.

I prefer to live a good, peaceful and happy life knowing that in whatever I do, I do it for His glory and that includes if I eat an ice cream.

Sorry to say, but at times I question the sanity of some of the members here.
---Paul2 on 1/15/09


Paul2:-Paranoid and Fanatic are your selection of words in regard to perfection which is how you view advancement to perfection.I was merely stating Jesus reached and exhorts us to reach perfection without the use ofthe words you ascribe.as He said "Follow me"I never saw such antics mentioned in the NT about him.You may agree to disagree.This BTW is not serving the lord in joy But doing something for your own well being in the after life, in compliance with GOD's Nature.
---Mic on 1/15/09


Pat :-Your first 2 sentences are spot on and well said.But with regards to the rest it is all worldly and of little value in the Life hereafter.This perfection is to prepare us for the next stage of Life,which is inevitable.
---Mic on 1/15/09


A christian should be concerned about being perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. We MUST make a conscious effort to live right and not Grieve the Holy Spirit of God. As to how much that will affect one's ministry, we all know it will affect the ministry in various ways especially as being examples to the flock...BUT as to whether God will decide to do miracles, make your finances good, increase membership numbers,one cannot tell... the decision is the Lord's.
some ministers' lifestyles are so unbecoming but they seem to see financial soundness and large congregations. Some people have lived right but have still been searching for jobs three years after graduating from University. He decides who to bless regardless i suppose.
---PAT on 1/15/09


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AMENDMENT:Kathr

John 17 perfect in Christ.
---Carla3939 on 1/15/09


Mic, trying to live a good life is one thing and becoming paranoid about if one is "perfect" is another.

One can't keep thinking and talking about perfection all the time until s/he go nuts. This becomes fanaticism which is something I avoid.

St Paul said once - serve the Lord in joy.
---Paul2 on 1/15/09


Oh,Alan, I was just joking :))
---Paul2 on 1/14/09


Paul2:-You did say you were a catholic"I'll go all the way to be good except becoming a fanatic".Was Jesus a fanatic? Of course not! but then why did He say In Matt5:43-48and reiterates in Lk6:27 32-36Using perfectness and Mercy.Remember to reach Heaven we must be perfect.or else no communion with God.He corelates Perfectness and Mercy with THE FATHER."I abide in Him who lives in me" Jn6:56Are you not perfect when Jesus lives in You?.Mima does not understand or believe this,- DO YOU?Fun is fun but serious in truth- is what Jesus says TRUTH.
---Mic on 1/14/09


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Paul2 ... Thank you for that ... but to be serious, I would not claim to be perfect, for to do so would nmake me the most imperfect of men.
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/14/09


Cathoon, looks like many give lots of importance to "flesh and spirit" and stuff like that.

I don't go into these unnecessary details. I concentrate on living a good life and having fun whenever I can. Being happy helps a lot the flesh and the spirit.

I'll go all the way to be good except becoming a fanatic which won't make you good but makes you think you are good.

Makes sense?
---Paul2 on 1/14/09


Paul2~ That was a very nice statement.
---Anne on 1/14/09


I guess it depends on what identity you have. We have two births, flesh and spirit.
Flesh not perfect, Spirit perfect.
---calhoon on 1/14/09


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As I said further below, perfection doesn't exist on earth and cannot be achieved and those who attempt to achieve it, will end up in a mental institution.

Christians need to do their utmost to observe the Commandments and obey mostly the most important Commandment - Love God and love thy neighbor.
---Paul2 on 1/14/09


Consider this scenario,
Jesus came not to save the righteous but sinners.
If a person were perfect they would be righteous and consequently could not be saved by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ
Going by this discourse it would seem that perfection is something the person wishing to be saved should not strive for.
---mima on 1/14/09


Alan, I'll let you have the top place for perfection under one condition: you have to keep posting your logical posts on CN because you're one of the few who make sense here.

I'm a Catholic - you're not, but I respect your prudent views a lot and being kind to others makes you a perfect Christian.
---Paul2 on 1/14/09


Kathrn:-" Carcass is a dead animal and contemptuously spoken of, as a dead human"What you state is an impossibility "drag your carcas up to calvary"Dead people cant move leave alone drag.Your last sentence does speak the truth.But it takes 'your' endeavour to invite Jesus into your heart this is only possible, when one is pure of Heart for Him to take posession of your being.I do believe you mean well.
---Mic on 1/13/09


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Paul2 ... I think you have put yourself back into second place, with the use of the non-existent word "perfecter"

Mic ... You certainly aren't any "perfecter" than me since you mispell "nonsense" But nice of you to say I am "practically perfect"

You ask ... Is this a perfect or imperfect conversation? Perfect I think as far as we are concerned, but should we really be less than serious?

Perhaps we are getting in the way of the serious stuff!
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/13/09


''One needs to drag their carcass up to Calvary'', and thank Jesus Christ who alone is PERFECT kathr4453 on 1/7/09

Can one in turn ask the question of you to drag your carcass off to..... John 18.

Is that okay what ever is good for one is good for all, I'd say Kathr does that sound nice to you?

RUDE!

Have a blessed DaY!
---Carla3939 on 1/13/09


A-men Elena. nonChristians try to comfort their flesh by always making vain excuses to sin, but until they crucify their flesh and start serving Christ their works will keep them in bondage and their wages for their sins is damnation.
---Eloy on 1/13/09


"...the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God, walk before me, and be thou perfect." Genesis 17:1. The Lord said in the Bible that we are to be holy for he is holy. In Russian translation in Genesis it uses "righteous" instead of perfect. We are to live righteously and to justify our calling in Christ that we are God's children so that we can be in God's glory when he takes us to heaven. Elena.
---Elena on 1/13/09


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Frances, no I don't go around to many countries, I live permanently in one country but I happen to love languages and can handle 8 of them. My wife can handle 5 so it's a total of 13.

Me nasty? Even my wife thinks I'm nice. There were three guys like me in the whole world: the other two have been executed already.

The fight was between Alan and I and it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubts that I'm perfecter than he is.
---Paul2 on 1/13/09


None of us are perfect, only God,when we sin we need to acknowledge our sin (s) and repent and ask God for His forgiveness and not continue to sin.

God bless
---Caroline on 1/12/09


Alan of Uk:-A little nonsence now and then is relished by the wisest men,so besides being practically perfect you are also wise.
PS is this a perfect or imperfect conversation?I hope I get a perfect answer.
---Mic on 1/12/09


Oh dear ... I really now have to acknowledge that I am not perfect!!!

I said "all this discussion about Paul & I being perfect has been a jest"

I should have said "Paul and me"
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/12/09


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Can your agency be employed in Sanctification? Poof Texts: 1 Peter 1:22,23 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a PURE heart, having been born again, not corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, James 1:4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. James 2:8,9 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
---TRU-DOG on 1/12/09


Mic ... Actualoly yuo did address me ... on 1/10

And note I referrd to you and Anne mocking "us", It was Anne who "mocked" me, and you who "mocked" (but not really!) Paul2 for his grammatical error.

Shame on you both!

But really, all this discussion about Paul & I being perfect has been a jest. I am sorry you did not realise it.

But no, not a jest, it was to make a point, that no-one is perfect, and no-one knows everything, and no-one is always right. ... not even me !!! :-)

And yes we are, I hope, friends.

God bless
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/12/09


Paul2 ... You have let me down now.

After saying that you and I were the only perfect ones here, you now seem pleased that Mic has shown me to be imperfect.

We perfect people ought to stick together ... even if you are not quite as perfect as me.
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/12/09


The Jesuits are noted for speaking a number of languages, but they don't boast about it, it might give away the fact that they are Jesuits. Perhaps Paul2 was not able to live in one place for some reason, cannot settle down, maybe on the run or something. Just popping up to be nasty to everyone and then moving along to the next place.
---frances008 on 1/12/09


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Alan, beware of the dogs. Your friend, Frances.

And if you don't agree with certain people you will be severely persecuted.
---frances008 on 1/12/09


Dear Paul2~ Thank you for your offer to be your perfect secretary. But I am not Catholic.

So I went to the Pope to see if I could be secretary and he did not approve.

So then I went to God with my resume and He approved. God trumps the Pope! Woot!

It's good having a little fun with you guys. :)
---Anne on 1/12/09


Jesus Commands: "Be you all therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." The Lord's Commandments are not suggestions, but Commandments, and he does not give anyone permission to sin.
---Eloy on 1/12/09


Paul~ I am not Catholic, so I asked the Pope if I could be your perfect secretary, but he did not approve.

So then I took my resume to God, and He did approve. God trumps Pope. Woot!

It is great joking around with you all. Have a great day!
---Anne on 1/12/09


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Mic, your statement verifies that Alan is not perfect. Thanks :))
---Paul2 on 1/12/09


Perfection doesn't exist south of Heaven. We can only do our best to be good people and, above all, exercise the beautiful virtue of Love.
---Paul2 on 1/12/09


It is God's "Grace", to convict or hearts, to repent, and believe, by his Holy Spirit. It is also, his "Grace", to keep us righteous, and holy, and to do his will, and to work out our salvation, with fear, and trembling, while his Holy Spirit is convicting our hearts to obey him, so we will not, be lost forever, this is ongoing, every day of our lives. God's Holy Spirit, is there in our hearts, convicting us of our sins, so we will repent, and, so we will, be righteous, as he is righteous, this is by his "Grace" in our hearts.
---TRU-DOG on 1/12/09


Alan of UK:-MOCKING ??How, why, when, where?I never even addressed you.Would that be Bearing False witness?Does one mock a friend?Surely You jest.
---Mic on 1/12/09


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Dear Mr Semi Perfect. English is not my mother language so one has to make allowance for grammatical errors.

If not satisfied with my English, please advise and I can use any of the 13 languages that my wife and I can handle.

In the meantime, you're my Perfect Assistance and with your approval, we'll nominate Anne as our Secretary.
---Paul2 on 1/12/09


Paul2 ... So I have lost my perfection!! That I suppose means you are now claiming to be more perfect than me? Shame on you!

Now it has been confirmed I am not perfect, thank goodness I no longer have to worry about my errant fingers and their typos.

That's quite a relief.

But if you now claim to be the only perfect one, you will need to wathc your grammar in future.

!!!!

God bless you all
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/12/09


Alan~Yes I am gravely wrong in mocking you ...but it was fun!! Thanks for the laughs!
---Anne on 1/11/09


Alan asked: Anne ... I acknowledge my mistake in my spelling. Does that acceptance restore my perfection?

The answer is a definite NO!!!!
---Paul2 on 1/11/09


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I believe that spiritual maturity is of up-most essence in how powerful your ministry will be. Not how big, but powerful. In perfection, we should grow as God grows us up. If you try to get out side of God's timing, you really belong to Him, your ministry will fall by the way side. That's it.
---catherine on 1/11/09


The Lord God Jesus Commands, "Be perfect." Matthew 5:48.
---Eloy on 1/11/09


I am now going to be a perfect nuisance, and change my name.

The reason is during my absence the system has forgotten me as alan of uk or alan_of_uk, or alan of uk

So I am now ...
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/11/09


Christians arn't expected to be perfect. The Bible says "No one is perfect, no NOT ONE!" We will mess up. It's part of life. Since the Fall, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect. The only one! He was 100% Man, 100% God. In order to get us to understand he became like us. It's hard for a white missionary to tell people like Africans the gospel. They don't understand! God uses our mistakes & hardships for His Glory.It's all apart of his plan! God doesn't want us to be perfect! He wants us to live our life for Him the best we can. That's why he made man! He wanted man to CHOOSE to love Him. CHOOSE to serve Him faithfully. That's our purpose for Life. Glorify Him & tell others about Him.
---Emily on 1/11/09


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Anne ... I acknowledge my mistake in my spelling. Does that acceptance restore my perfection?

And Mic ... does Paul2's acceptance of his his mistake restore his perfection?

Of course Mic and Anne, neither of you can be perfect because you have taken such great delight in ridiculing us for these so minor errors. With Paul2 and I both being perfect (even if Paul2 is not quite as me) you are gravely wrong in mocking us.
---alan_of_uk on 1/11/09


Paul2:The average is still 100% :-)))sMay you have a long life.Imagine the rest.!!!
---Mic on 1/11/09


Adam and Eve, before the fall of man were perfect. I truly believe that at the time of our first breath, we are perfect. The imperfections of the world affect us as we grow older. You shouldn't concern yourself with trying to be perfect. God sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins because He knows what we are up against in this world. God is only concerned with us living according to His Word and commandments. With this in mind, there shouldn't be any "degrees of perfection" as you say. As Children of God, we are all the same. God loving, forgiving, and blessing us, despite our imperfections, further demonstrate His love, mercy and forgiveness. Only God is perfect!
---Paul on 1/11/09


Paul2:-Gramatically Wrong- read I - not me. but the message is truly implied.What say you Alan to the implication.:-)
---Mic on 1/10/09
----------------------
You're right, Mic. No wonder Alan only gave me 99.99999%.

It's the first time I made a mistake in my life :))
---Paul2 on 1/11/09


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Tru-Dog~ No, I have not read that book. Tell me some of your favorite highlights from the book if you care to.
---Anne on 1/10/09


Alan~ You are perfect other than the fact that you spelled 'believe' wrong in your last post. hehe
---Anne on 1/10/09


Anne, Have you read this?...Scripture Doctrine of Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan
---TRU-DOG on 1/10/09


Paul2 ... Thank you!!

There may be others who beleive themselves to be perfect, but only you and I are actually perfect.

But you must really understand that whilst we are both perfect, you are perhaps 99.9999% perfect, whilst I am perfectly perfect.
---alan_of_uk on 1/10/09


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Paul2:-Gramatically Wrong- read I - not me. but the message is truly implied.What say you Alan to the implication.:-)
---Mic on 1/10/09


There are two perfect Christians in the whole world: Alan of UK and me !!!!!
---Paul2 on 1/10/09


Mic, we have had this converstion before. And I answered you again just in case you forgot. It was a reminder so that you would not forget and maybe look at the Scriptures with an open heart, because you wanted the Truth of God's Word to cut to your heart.
Maybe you don't want that now but later you will.
---MarkV. on 1/9/09


Mark:We have had this conversation once before. Why would the Angel declare "She MARY had found Favour in His(GODS) eyes"if she was a sinner, You suggest by your statement 1.God treats sinners and righteous alike.2 why would she rejoice if she was a sinner,in view of The angels declaration Her joy is in Her words from "henceforth all men shall call me blessed"Blessed means without sin, just as Jesus was blesed,son of the Most high.But you may continue to believe what you so desire.You open yourself to his Judgement.
---Mic on 1/8/09


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Mima:-I know you do not believe in perfection.and it is not for want of Trying,but it is your denial of God's word as contained in Matt5:48.You are not up to His challenge I believe.Its too hard for You.!!
---Mic on 1/8/09


Mic, sorry again, you made another mistake in reading. Luke 1:45-49 nowhere states she is not a sinner. It actually says in v.47 "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" She was a sinner in need of Christ for salvation just like everyone else. "She even mentions that all generations will call her blessed." She mentioned it, her on words. No one said this but her. She knew in generations to come people would think she was blessed for having Jesus. A poor women, a sinner but humble person who obeyed God.
Gen. 3:15 has nothing to do with Mary, her great, great, great, great etc parents were not even born yet.
---MarkV. on 1/8/09


MarkV, Why this metaphsical fog, to be "perfect" is not seventy five percent "perfection" and twenty five percent "imperfection", it is the whole will in union of love with Christ Jesus, it is not a part of the will, but the whole will loving God, the whole heart. You cannot withhold a part of your heart, like maybe seventy five percent and be selfish, and rest the love God, this is poor logic or reason.
---TRU-DOG on 1/8/09


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