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What Laws Are Legalistic

What beliefs do you consider legalistic? And do you have beliefs that you feel are biblical, and others call it legalism?

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 ---Kella3336 on 11/16/07
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Kella3336 - and the religious like to point to their keeping of laws glorifying in their religiosity - a 'look at me guys, how well I follow the Lord's laws' while others are not as worthy. And such are many that advocate the keeping of the OT Sabbath & the Levitical dietary laws.

We must love them despite their folly much like those that knew not what they were doing when they crucified our Lord.
---Lee on 3/26/08


Lee~I have read what EGW says regarding meat and how she says it effects children. I have also read her view on feeding children eggs with a very judgemental how far will your prayers go statement.Astonishing. Keep it up Lee:-)God bless
---Kella3336 on 3/24/08


Samuel - While Adams & Eve had a veggie diet God later changed it after the flood.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Sorry but one cannot get much support for being a veggie out of the Bible, all you can do is to follow those who have opinions on proper diet.

Note also the Levitical priest were commanded to eat some of the meat sacrifices in the tabernacle / temple worship.
---Lee on 3/23/08


GOD gave Adam and Eve a vegetarian diet and you can all the protein you need from beans and nuts.

Now the comment on EGW which was not part of this discussion seems to be trying to drag this topic onto attacks. Let me ask this have you ever heard of the book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?
---Samuel on 3/22/08


Daniel 1:8 But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the kings food, or with the wine that he drank.

And we can surmise that Daniel putting God foremost in his life was blessed & made an instrument of His will.

Frankly if you eat only vegetables, you will not be very healthy as you need proteins and other things essential to healthful living.

BTW, have you ever figured out why EGW viewed butter, eggs and meat as aphrodisiacs for children?
---Lee on 3/21/08




While Daniel may have did better eating what was on his menu,we really do not know what was on the Babylonian menu - perhaps foods he was not used to eating.
---Lee 3/10/08
Dan 1:8 "Daniel decided not to make himself "unclean" by eating the king's food and drinking his wine. So he asked the chief official for a favor. He wanted permission not to make himself "unclean" with the king's food and wine." NIRV

I believe "unclean" may have reference to Lev 11
---Gina7 on 3/15/08


Legalism is when you feel you must, you have to, and the leading of the Holy Spirit is not telling you to do it. This is as simple as it gets.
---catherine on 3/12/08
What about when God says to do it, and the Holy Spirit impresses you to do so, but you stubbornly refuse to obey God, calling it legalism? It shows you do not love God, it's just that simple. 1 John 5:2,3
---Gina7 on 3/15/08


Legalism is when you feel you must, you have to, and the leading of the Holy Spirit is not telling you to do it. This is as simple as it gets.
---catherine on 3/12/08


The major difference between what I stated from Romans 14 and what you offered from Daniel is that mine is plain Scripture while yours is an assumption.

While Daniel may have did better eating what was on his menu, we really do not know what was on the Babylonian menu - perhaps foods he was not used to eating.
---Lee on 3/10/08


Romans 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

And Adventist like to brag how strong their faith is!
---Lee on 2/12/08
Daniel/3 friends insisted on eating only pulse (vegetables) in the Book of Daniel and became more intelligent than all of the other youth taken captive. Daniel 1:12-17
The Kings Meat and Wine was taken away from them and they were given only vegetables and water to drink. So much for the weak only eating vegetables!
---Gina7 on 3/8/08




"and at the end of 10 days their contenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the kings meat. Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine they should drink, and gave them pulse. As for these 4 children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom.." Daniel 1:15-17

4 Vegetarian Men of God.

Daniel, he was visited by the angel Gabriel who said "thou art greatly beloved" Daniel 9:23
---Gina7 on 3/8/08


Daniel 1:15-17:

15 At the end of the ten days, Daniel and his three friends looked healthier and better nourished than the young men who had been eating the food assigned by the king. 16 So after that, the attendant fed them only vegetables instead of the food and wine provided for the others.

17 God gave these four young men an unusual aptitude for understanding every aspect of literature and wisdom. And God gave Daniel the special ability to interpret the meanings of visions and dreams
---Gina7 on 3/8/08


The Message Bible

Passage Daniel 1:17-19:


17 -19 God gave these four young men knowledge and skill in both books and life. In addition, Daniel was gifted in understanding all sorts of visions and dreams. At the end of the time set by the king for their training, the head of the royal staff brought them in to Nebuchadnezzar. When the king interviewed them, he found them far superior to all the other young men. None were a match for Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.
---Gina7 on 3/8/08


The Message Bible

Passage Daniel 1:14-16:

14-16 The steward agreed to do it and fed them vegetables and water for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked better and more robust than all the others who had been eating from the royal menu. So the steward continued to exempt them from the royal menu of food and drink and served them only vegetables.


Who was weak? Those eating meat!
Who was stronger and robust? Those eating vegetables!
---Gina7 on 3/8/08


If there is no more death in heaven (Rev 21:4) would this not apply to animals as well? And if so, animal flesh would no longer be eaten, correct? Therefore all of us in heaven would be vegetarians, including you Lee. Vegetarian is God's diet, and really should not be made fun of. Fruit of the tree of life, manna, grapes, etc. Delicious food, and you will be happy in heaven and will not even miss killing the innocent animals for food. No animals will suddenly go missing for a BBQ!
---Gina7 on 3/8/08


pop - Perhaps I should tone down my rhetoric a little in view of the Scripture -

Ro 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
---Lee on 3/3/08


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Lee: an so called educated christian such as you should not be insulting others with such slanderous opinions..Adventists seems to be more respectful on this site than most as I read through the blogs..You infact is the most insulting and I fail to understand why the moderators continue to post your insulting blog..unless you also is a moderator
---pop on 2/29/08


*I saw this on a t-shirt at a wild game feast.Vegetarian, an old indian word for bad hunter.

LOL!

Another verse Adventists gag on is Romans 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

And Adventist like to brag how strong their faith is!
---Lee on 2/12/08


*Lee: That's right! Not only will you have to keep the REAL Sabbath in Heaven,...*

Laugh, laugh, laugh! And we will also drink real wine - Mt.26:29

And you also must believe that the Levitical priesthood will be re-established in heaven - a priesthood that pointed forward to Christ? Isaiah 66:21

Some of the SDA beliefs are simply nothing less that foolishness!
---Lee on 2/12/08


I saw this on a t-shirt at a wild game feast.
Vegetarian,
an old indian word for
bad hunter.
---jhonny on 2/6/08


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Lee: That's right! Not only will you have to keep the REAL Sabbath in Heaven, but you'll have to become a vegetarian (no more death, remember?) as well. Better start preparing while you can!
---jerry6593 on 2/2/08


*Isa 66:22,23 show that the Seventh Day Sabbath will be (FUTURE) kept in the new heaven and the new earth! Better get prepared now, or you're in for a shock!

Another act of desperation to proved an indefensible point?


Yes, and I suppose you want also to tell me that when the Lord re-establishes the Levitical priesthood (66:21) - a priesthood that pointed FORWARD to Christ, that these guys will be Seventh Day Adventists?
---Lee on 2/1/08


Lee: I see that since it took you so long to admit your error, you have forgotten the reason for the discussion. Here it is:

Isa 66:22,23 show that the Seventh Day Sabbath will be (FUTURE) kept in the new heaven and the new earth! Better get prepared now, or you're in for a shock!
---jerry6593 on 2/1/08


Jerry - *Future conditional tense and past tense are not the same thing.

True, but what is your point?

I have taken my share of grammar courses plus having taken several courses in French, German & Greek, so I do know the differences between the verse tenses.

Isaiah 66 does focus on future events, some of which would have occured in the Jews had recognized their Messiah.
---Lee on 1/30/08


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Hold it Lee! Future conditional tense and past tense are not the same thing. Why can't you just admit you're wrong?
---jerry6593 on 1/30/08


*Those who call others legallists, are weaklings who are spineless and just follows the flow/mainstream who have man's teachings..am not judging but replying to the question...*

The voice of frustration? Tried of kicking against the pricks? Surrender to the truth while you still have some of your marbles.
---Lee on 1/29/08


pam - *Lee: Revelation says there will be no sun. Where exactly does that say that?*

Re 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Strongly recommend that you read some of the literature by former Adventists as they address most of the deficiencies found within Adventist doctrinal beliefs.
---Lee on 1/29/08


lee: I've thought you have many qualities, but illiteracy was not one of them.*

Thank you Jerry, I read & study lots of books & articles.

If you check grammar books you would learn that such verbs as 'shall', 'should' can also be viewed as future conditional. In other words, it denotes an action that can be accomplished, not necessarily of certainty.

And such is the case in Isaiah 66 as those actions would have, or should have occured if Israel has recognized her Lord.
---Lee on 1/29/08


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Well said, Pam!
---jerry6593 on 1/29/08


Lee: I've thought that you have many qualities, but illiteracy was not one of them. The context of Isa 66 is given by the use of the word "shall" 16 times, and the word "will" 10 times. Those are not words that denote past or present, but FUTURE tense. The events of Christ's second coming (v. 15) and the creation of a new heaven and a new earth (v. 22) are certainly not in the past as you would have us believe. As for the "priesthood" (v. 21) see 1 Pet 2:9) THINK!
---jerry6593 on 1/26/08


If you follow exactly what God teaches you to do, you are called legalists..so therefore, man is calling God a legalist. Those who call others legallists, are weaklings who are spineless and just follows the flow/mainstream who have man's teachings..am not judging but replying to the question..
---Pam on 1/26/08


Lee: Revelation says there will be no sun. Where exactly does that say that Lee?
---Pam on 1/26/08


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Isaiah 66:20-21 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, ...to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, .... And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.

Jerry if you truly believe that Isaiah 66:22,23 refers to a future event, you must also believe the the Levitical priesthood will be restored - a priesthood that pointed forward to Christ!

THINK!
---Lee on 1/25/08


Lee:

Isa 66:22,23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Sure sounds like future tense to me. You must be reading from the book of Lee!
---jerry6593 on 1/25/08


Let's try this very slowly:

1) Did Jesus keep the seventh-day Sabbath according to the Commandment defined by Exo 20:8-11?

Yes, He did!

2) Did Jesus believe in His second Advent.

Yes, He did!

3) Was then Jesus a seventh-day adventist?

YES, HE WAS!

Now, was that too hard to follow?
---jerry6593 on 1/25/08


Jerry - *Isaiah even tells us that the Sabbath will be kept in heaven*

Isaiah 65/66 speak of what would have been if the Jews would have recognized Christ. As to Sabbath observance in heaven, you apparently believe in a re-constituted earth revolving around the same sun. But Rev tells us that there will be no sun, so how then can one determine the Sabbath.

Jerry you really need to get away from those manmade traditions and stick to the truths of Scripture.
---lee on 1/18/08


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jerry - you should be ashamed of yourself - lying about Jesus Christ.

To be an Adventist - you must believe in Ellen White
To be baptized an Adventist you must believe EGW is the spirit of prophecy

the spirit of prophecy is not Ellen White

The apostles didn't say you had to believe in anything but Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for your sin.
---Andrea on 1/18/08


Jerry - Let's see now, would Jesus have made a good SDA?

He was continually accused of breaking the Sabbath by authorities, drank real wine, even told people that all foods were clean for consumption. And would He had believed in the extrabiblical writings of Ellen White & that His sacrifice at the Cross was the final or parital atonement(Adventist believe He did not finish until 1844)?

Sorry there are too many things about Jesus that would indicate he would not have made a good SDA.
---Lee on 1/17/08


Lee: You said of Jesus: "Would He have made a good SDA if He were on earth today? The answer is that Jesus was, is and will always be a Seventh-day Adventist. He kept the Sabbath and He taught of His return (advent) to earth. In fact, all the godly people of the Bible, from Adam to the Apostle John were SDAs. Isaiah even tells us that the Sabbath will be kept in heaven. So why fight so hard for man's traditions?
---jerry6593 on 1/17/08


Lee,
God does speak through men. But who is He speaking through? The Pope, Beth Moore, TD Jakes? There are a lot of teachers to listen to.
We know there are no perfect teachers. Even Paul considered himself the chief sinner. Everything that is taught does not come from the Father. We need to listen to what is said and determine who is speaking. The only way to make such a determination is to know the Word for yourself with guidance by the Spirit of the Word.
---AG on 1/16/08


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Lee,
Acts 15 is equally misinterpreted.
This chapter shows that decisions regarding the minimum requirements for gentiles believers (who had zero background in God's Word) to attend synagoge were being made by their Jewish leadership. James the brother of Jesus stated that the gentile newbies would learn more as they continued attending Synagogue (Acts 15:21).
---AG on 1/16/08


AG - yes the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd (Jn. 10:27), but you should not ignore the fact that He has given His church some to be teachers through whom He uses to speak to us. (1 Cor.12:28)

As to the interpretation of 1 Cor. 9:20, suggest you view the Bible commentaries.

There was indeed a different standard for Gentiles than for Jews, ever read Acts 15?
---Lee on 1/16/08


The Pharisees were politicians who wrote laws based upon laws found in God's Word.
They adhered to these extra laws as closely as the ten commandments, regarding them as holy or holier than scripture itself.
That's why they did not debate with Christ over what day was the sabbath, only what could or could not be done on that day.
---AG on 1/15/08


Jerry - was Jesus a legalist according to our modern definition?

He apparently was not as the Pharisees known for their legalism were often at odds with Him on such things as the Sabbath (Jesus worked on the Sabbath healing people- Lk. 6:7f), and in regard to dietary laws (He even declared all foods clean for consumption (Mark 7:19f))

Would He have made a good SDA if He were on earth today?
---lee1538 on 1/15/08


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Jerry.
"Was Jesus a legalist or not?"
Legalist is a modern confunderation.
Legalism is a matter of semantics.
Seamntics are subject to transformation/manipulation.
Doctrines/tecahings outside the words of the bible are difficult to tie down. They are shape shifters.
To yes or no it to Jesus Christ is to create error.
Legalism, as anarchy
Every man is right in their own eyes.
Legalistic, as dissemblence
Using the laws of God yet removing God from the action.
---jhonny on 1/15/08


Lee - "And who makes that determination?"

Those who know the voice of THE teacher.
Earthly teachers are for children.
We are to become men and put aside childish ways.
---AG on 1/14/08


Lee - "In 1 Cor. 9:20, Paul needed to submit to Jewish customs, all of which in view of the gospel were optional not mandatory upon Christians."

That is a misinterpretation of 1 Cor 9:20.
All laws & customs (Jewish or otherwise) are optional. Some choose to obey, some don't.

Part 1
---AG on 1/14/08


Lee,
Paul was not forced to follow empty customs.
Paul's God did not have 1 standard for Jews and 1 for gentiles. And Paul was not in the business of appeasing anyone but God. He chose to submit to the Spirit of his God who leads us only in ways of righteousness. In 1 Cor 9 the Spirit lead him to observe a vow that is straight from the scriptures he defended until death.

Part 2
---AG on 1/14/08


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Read Mark 7: 1-23. 18"Do ye not perceive that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him, 20, That which comes out of the man, that defileth the man." No religion will ever save a man because we have a sin problem: its what we are. ONLY Jesus can save a sinner. IF He saves the sinner He gives him a new nature, one that hungers and thirsts after righteousness and holiness and actively follows Christ.
---craig on 1/13/08


Legalism is ANY system that states that you have to adhere to a certain set of "rules" or you are not/cannot be saved.
---tommy3007 on 1/13/08


Legalism was the error in the Galatian church that Paul had to write against. It means imposing extra-biblical laws on people.

Antinomianism is not the antidote for legalism, Christianity is!
---Ktisophilos on 1/13/08


I think we sometimes lump old testament "laws" into the legalistic catagory. After Jesus died for our sins, we do not have to live by the law, because we are saved by grace through faith.
---rraea8898 on 1/12/08


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we are to obey the law..jesus said, do not think i came to destroy the law, but to fulfil...the only difference between old testament and new testament is now we have the spirit of christ in us that enables us to obey!!!!
---linda on 1/12/08


The 'law' or its keeping is not liagalistic. It is the attitude for 'keeping' that law. If the law is kept as a means of salvation it is a legalistic law. If the law is kept as submission or service to the law giver it is obedience. I would keep God's law if there was no heaven, or reward, siimply as my submission to His authority. The 'law' is only "required" of those that submit themselves wholly to it's Giver.
---dan on 1/12/08


Would someone please answer the only significant question to a Christian in this debate? Was Jesus a legalist or not?
---jerry6593 on 1/12/08


Legalism. Something bad will happen if you leave. The world is dangerous out there.

People who were once controlled and have been set free of these mind cults have justified their slavery and will follow or even look for a new bondage plan for that feeling of strong authority.
Mr. and Mrs. Cult Legalism, through a post facto adjustment of thought have a performace consistent with a positive self image which protects their cherished if unrealistic picture of their own nature. Denial bondage.
---jhonny on 1/11/08


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Yes, and usually the King James onlyist churches are the ones that are the most legalistic with their denunciation of women wearing slacks, jewelry, modern music (they call it rock music), other denominations (they say they are liberals) etc. etc. etc.

Best to stay away from those types and they always show hatred toward others.
---lee on 1/11/08


AG *He has also given us teachers, but they are all are imperfect at best and some are completely false at worst.*

And the Word states that with regard to false teachers, we should recognize them by their fruits. Mt.7:16,20

True we cannot take anything for granted but the Good Shepherd does guide His sheep & those that are His should be able to recognize His voice.

Keep focused by continually abiding in His Word.
---lee on 1/11/08


Things like a dress code,dresses only for women,long hair for women,short hair for men,tatoos,jewlrey,all movies wrong,all TV wrong,any kind of dancing wrong good examples.
---shirley on 1/11/08


Lee - "The Lord has given to His church not only His Word but teachers to help us in understanding as well as individually the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Yes. God gave us His perfect Word and perfect Spirit which are one-in-the-same.
He has also given us teachers, but they are all are imperfect at best and some are completely false at worst.
---AG on 1/11/08


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Lee - "all of the Adventists arguments are lacking in biblical support of their unique beliefs"

I have not heard all their beliefs, so I can't say all their arguments are lacking.
However from the little I've heard & read I have noticed some inconsistencies in some of their arguments.
---AG on 1/11/08


AG - Paul considered himself to be an ambassador for Christ. (Eph. 6:20) And as an ambassador one must possess positive credentials to those one is dealing with and that would include right moral conduct.

In 1 Cor. 9:20, Paul needed to submit to Jewish customs, all of which in view of the gospel were optional not mandatory upon Christians.
---Lee on 1/11/08


AG - *Just as the prodigal son was permitted to waste his inheritance, many things are permissible but not beneficial.*

And who makes that determination?

The Lord has given to His church not only His Word but teachers to help us in understanding as well as individually the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In short, all of the Adventists arguments are lacking in biblical support of their unique beliefs - beliefs not found within 'that faith once for all delivered to the saints'. Jude3
---lee on 1/11/08


Lee - "1 Cor 9:20 doesn't imply Paul believed he had to be immoral to win others to Christ, simply of submitting to Jewish laws considered optional in the New Covenant relationship to win them to Christ."

It's probably me, but I didn't I follow your wording.

However I agree Paul didn't believe it necessary to act immorally w/ gentiles. (Morality as defined by scripture.)
I also agree he set aside pharisee laws NOT FOUND IN TORAH while evangelizing.
---AG on 1/10/08


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Lee - "the gospel permits the option of one observing one day over another or viewing all days alike and in what one eats or does not eat"

Absolutely.
Just as the prodigal son was permitted to waste his inheritance, many things are permissible but not beneficial.
---AG on 1/10/08


Why Lee, "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (Acts 9:5)
---jerry6593 on 1/10/08


AG - *Did he need to violate Torah to spread the gospel? Of coarse not. The gospel isn't that fragile*

True and the gospel permits the option of one observing one day over another or viewing all days alike and in what one eats or does not eat.

Romans 14 is a stumbling block to Adventists as clearly the context violates what their religion teaches - that one has to abstain from certain foods & one must observe the Jewish Sabbath.
---lee on 1/9/08


AG - *You didn't answer the question of how Paul become like the Pagans?*

The verse (1 Cor.9:20) does not even imply Paul believed he had to be immoral in order to win others to Christ, simply of submitting to Jewish laws considered optional in the New Covenant relationship to win them to Christ.

It is much the same as not serving pork if your guest is Jewish or Muslim.

Gal. 5:13 do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another.
---lee on 1/9/08


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Lee - "Don't forget that God commanded the jewish nation to observe over 600 laws."

That's correct, but a bit misleading. An individual Jew or Israeli did not have 600+ laws to abide by. Many laws were gender, tribe, position, and location specific.
So for example a Jew did not have to abide by laws given to Levites. Women did not have abide by laws for men. Some laws could only be carried out in THE Temple not privately in a foriegn nation, etc.
---AG on 1/9/08


Lee - "do we have to observe the festivals, Passover, dietary laws..."

No. We do not have to observe festivals or Passover. Nor do we have to adhear to the 10 commandments.
There is no gun to our head.

At the same time, we will reap what we sow. And the desire to walk in His ways will grow for all beleivers who love the Father and the Son.
What are His Ways? See Deut 30:11-16 & 1John 2:3-5.
---AG on 1/9/08


Lee You know that the Sacrifices ended at the Cross because Christ Kept the Commandments and had to die so you could continue breaking them?
---seventhseal on 1/9/08


Gordon - *It is not LEGALISTIC to just be OBEDIENT to GOD.*

But is being obedient to God obeying laws that He did not impose on the church? laws that are obsolete?

Or do we have to observe the festivals, Passover, dietary laws, civil laws (marry your deceased brother wife, not plant 2 kinds of seeds in the garden,etc.), observe the new moon Sabbath or other Sababths? Don't forget that God commanded the jewish nation to observe over 600 laws.
---lee on 1/9/08


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Jerry6593, YAHUSHUA (Jesus Christ) came not to abolish the Law (10 Commandments), but to FULFILL them. YAHUSHUA obeyed the Laws of GOD, including the Observance of the 7th Day Sabbath. It is not LEGALISTIC to just be OBEDIENT to GOD. If a parent tells their child to ALWAYS be home by 9:00 every night that they go out, is that "legalistic" or simply a matter of obedience? GOD has Guidelines for His followers to live by. It's a matter of OBEDIENCE.
---Gordon on 1/9/08


Would someone please answer the only significant question to a Christian in this debate? Was Jesus a legalist or not?
---jerry6593 on 1/9/08


Lee - "Paul was often falsely accused by Judaizers of being an antinominist..."

You didn't answer the question of how Paul become like the Pagans?

Did he need to violate Torah to spread the gospel? Of coarse not. The gospel isn't that fragile.
However Paul did raise the ire of pharisaic rabbis by breaking from unbiblical rabbinic customs. And because the pharisee blindly held rabbinic customs to be on the level of scripture they falsly accused Paul of breaking Torah.
---AG on 1/8/08


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