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Old Testament Apply Today

Were the rules and instructions in the Old Testament only for the Israelites & Jews?
And do they apply to anyone today?

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 ---AG on 12/10/07
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Oh the problems of literalism!
God, Jesus, Christ ... a person.
Sin .... a thing
Jesus could not become a thing.
Jesus did not become murder, lust, adultery, anger, theft.
How could he become the thing that people do?
What does the Bible mean ... that Jesus took the punishment for all those sins that we commit
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/2/10


Jack, you are right this time, I did put your name instead of Kathr. I am beginning to think you both are the same person. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. Not my intention.
If you notice, my intention is only to answer for the Truth, never to attack your person as you and others do when you get angry and just want to make comment against me as a person which only shows the love all of you have. I'm not here to hurt you Jack, you could be the nicest person in the world for all I know. I'm not here to proof I am any holier, or better then you. But to stand for the Truth. I even put it down and break it down for you to read. I don't sit here trying to break you down.
---MarkV. on 10/2/10


//When He cried out My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?, it was with our forsakenness he cried out//

Praise God. Nicely explained, Linda.
---JackB on 10/2/10


Kathr, just to remind you, Jesus Christ our Lord is God. I know you want to separate them but you cannot. When you speak to Jesus you speak to God. When you speak to the Father you speak to God, when you speak to the Holy Spirit you are speaking to God. God never becomes sin. Never. He never turns to a piece of bread, never. His deity remains the same all through eternity from everlasting. Any other god is not the God of Scripture.
---MarkV. on 10/1/10
<
When we pray to God we come THROUGH CHRIST.

I don't speak to the Holy Spirit, He speaks to me.

God became FLESH to take our sin. This is WHY God came in the flesh!!! Are you denying the necessity of WHY Christ came in the FLESH???

Have you not read Hebrews 1-2?
---kathr4453 on 10/1/10


God is a Spirit. Jesus Christ was God in flesh. He was fully God and fully man. He died as a man for man, taking on the fullness of human experience and drinking the cup. He was the sinless Lamb of God in His earth walk but was made to be sin and the curse in His death as man. He didn't "fake" anything. When He cried out My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?, it was with our forsakenness he cried out. We could never have been made righteous with His righteousness unless He had been made sin with our sin. That is the great exchange and the whole nature of substitution. Don't water down the gospel. You get watered down results like "even though I am set free from sin, I still must sin".
---Linda on 10/1/10




//Jack, you said again
"MarkV, here you go again interpretating God's sovereignty that He can do anything He wants, because this is what man taught you"
Why don't you read your Bible Jack // - MarkV

Before you start insulting someone as though they dont have enough comprehension skills to read the Bible properly, you might want to look at your own ability to read the name of the person who is speaking to you.

Kathr wrote that.
---JackB on 10/1/10


//God never becomes sin. Never. He never turns to a piece of bread, never. His deity remains the same all through eternity from everlasting. Any other god is not the God of Scripture. // -- MarkV

But Christ wasnt just simply God. He was fully God (the Word) AND fully man (Jesus of Nazareth). I dont understand how you missed that in scripture.

Apparently your "God of scripture" didnt take your sins upon himself. (Isaiah 53:6) If you honestly believe that, Mark, then that means you have no savior. Your sin is still upon you. It would certainly explain your strange doctrines and your inability to comprehend the simplest of scriptures concerning salvation.
---JackB on 10/1/10


Kathr, just to remind you, Jesus Christ our Lord is God. I know you want to separate them but you cannot. When you speak to Jesus you speak to God. When you speak to the Father you speak to God, when you speak to the Holy Spirit you are speaking to God. God never becomes sin. Never. He never turns to a piece of bread, never. His deity remains the same all through eternity from everlasting. Any other god is not the God of Scripture.
---MarkV. on 10/1/10


MarkV why are you saying we are saying something we are not saying. WE ARE QUOTING SCRIPTURE. You're the one wrestling with God's word.

God demonstrated His love AKA MERCY towards us while we were yet sinners. Calvary demonstrated not only God's love/MERCY towards us, but God JUDGMENTtowards sin!

You didn't believe that but tried to go around Jesus and BEG GOD for mercy/salvation.

Why did you do that? Why did you not believe God demonstrated His Mercy towards you 2000 years ago IN CHRIST?

When did God say Enough Begging MarkV...you've begged enough for mercy? How much begging was necessary? When did you know when to quit begging? YOU my friend admit here you side-stepped Christ where God's Mercy is revealed.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/10


Even Abraham and Rizpah had to shoo away the birds lest they be robbed of the full value of the death pictured there. What you allow the ravens to remove is an aspect of redemption you fail to appropriate and enjoy. Ravens are circling. If you believe there is more to the death of Jesus than can be seen with the natural eye or understood with the natural mind, you better start shooing. Let the true worshippers of the Lord Jesus Christ arise!
---Linda on 10/1/10




Jack, you said again
"MarkV, here you go again interpretating God's sovereignty that He can do anything He wants, because this is what man taught you"
Why don't you read your Bible Jack and you will know who the God of Scripture is. Such a God cannot be found out by searching. He can be known as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through His Word, His Word affirms,
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" Dan. 4:35. and, "There is many devices in a man's heart, nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand" Prov. 19:21. God, not man, was speaking.
---MarkV. on 10/1/10


Mima, I hope you are not saying that Jesus turned into sin. You could not possibly believe that do you?
If you believe that, then you cannot avoid believing He turned into a piece of bread, Or that you can eat Him?
If you take Scripture literally all the time, then you would have to believe that He became sin before He was sacrificed which would mean He was not sinless. Here is what that means,
God the Father using the principle of imputation from (v. 19) treated Christ as if He were a sinner though He was not, and had Him die as a substitute to pay the penalty for the sins of those who believe in Him (Isa. 53:4-6, Gal. 3:10-13, 1 Peter 2:24). At the cross He did not become a sinner, but remained as Holy as ever.
---MarkV. on 10/1/10


//Linda, Jesus never became sin. Sorry.//
---MarkV

Mark perhaps your wrong in the above statement.

Please consider Second Corinthians 5:21" For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
---mima on 10/1/10


MarkV, here you go again interpretating God's sovereignty that He can do anything He wants, because this is what man taught you.

Without the death and resurrection of Christ there would be no church of the First Born, for one thing. No NEW Creation for another, sin would only be covered, not PUT AWAY at Calvary. And Paul tells us that you would STILL be in your sin....1st Cor 15.

Paul totally explains all this in 1st Corinthians 15.

So MarkV believes God could just wave his magic want and forgive. However, you would still be a claymation...made out of dirt...nothing more.

The Church are BEGOTTEN SONS and that comes only through CALVARY.

MarkV has always hissed and cursed at this subject.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/10


//Linda, Jesus never became sin. Sorry.//
---MarkV

//Jack, Jesus is God, He makes the rules. He did not have to die.// ---MarkV

Its just a matter of time before the lie rears its ugly head. Now I understand why you have gone astray.

Kathr just gave you scripture showing you are wrong, Mark. Im sorry but its very true that Christ became sin for us.

Its a blood covenant. Theres always an exchange in a blood covenant. He took our sin, we receive His righteousness.

That is the ONLY way any man will spend eternity with God.
---JackB on 9/30/10


Jack, Jesus is God, He makes the rules. He did not have to die. He died because He wanted to sacrifice Himself for our sins. It was an act of God from the foundation of the World. He could have forgiven everyone If He so had wanted. He does not live by your standards or mine.
That He did sacrifice was the ultimate statement of the love God had for His own, to sacrifice His own Son. Sins did not kill Him. Those who put Him on the Cross did. And He allowed it to happen. He was ordained from the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin. He was following the instructions of the Father, He was obedient to death.
---MarkV. on 9/30/10


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2 Corinthians 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The passage clearly states that Jesus who "knew no sin" became "sin "for us. It does not mean that He became a sinner.

Isaiah 53 tells us that when Jesus died on the cross, God the Father placed the sins of the world on Him.

---kathr4453 on 9/30/10


Kathr, I think you are one to talk about God's vengence, when your list is longer then a mile. Pull the logs out of your eyes so that you can see with a clear vision.
---MarkV. on 9/30/10


Yes to your first questions the Jews were and still are Gods children we as Gentiles never Knew God until after the resurrection.(Matt 11:12-15 [NET])
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and forceful people lay hold of it.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared.
And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come.
The one who has ears had better listen!

Look up Emmanuel. John the baptist was the end of the law and prophets.
---Royll on 9/30/10


Sorry, Mark, but He did. He also was made the curse. He was also cut off from the land of the living. In the economy of God, the land of the living is the flow of His own life since man was dead and had no life in him. The only reason we can be filled with the Holy Ghost is because Jesus was cut off from that life giving flow. He is also the High Priest who became us.

2 Cor.5:21
Gal.3:13
Isaiah 5:8
Heb. 7:26

Lot of revelation there for the seeker.
---Linda on 9/30/10


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Linda, Jesus never became sin. Sorry.
---MarkV. on 9/30/10


Were the rules and instructions in the Old Testament only for the Israelites & Jews? NO

And do they apply to anyone today YES

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet,
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother
---francis on 9/30/10


Paul speaking:

Acts 20:21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Michael_e, Paul preached repentance, and continued in Acts 20 that we THE CHURCH were PURCHASED with the Blood of Christ.

Peter also states in his epistles we are purchased with the blood of Christ....only the CHURCH is purchased with His Blood!!! not only forgiven but PURCHASED...The pearl of great price He sold everything laid down his life for!!

All you who scoff at the Blood of Christ, counting the blood of the everlasting Covenant a common thing....God's vengeance will visit you!!!

cheer up catherine! There are mockers all around..YOU know the truth!
---kathr4453 on 9/30/10


No death, no resurrection from the dead. No resurrection from the dead, no life or salvation for you, me, or anybody else. The wages of sin is death. Jesus became sin and died. It was more than just being a sacrifice. It was love. His death was the death of my old man. His resurrection was the resurrection and life of my new man. Identification is more than just saying you identify Christ. It is also how God identified Him both in His death and in His life. If you don't see Him the way God sees Him, then you cannot possibly see you as God sees you.
---Linda on 9/30/10


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//He could have taken all our sins and not died//---MarkV

No sir. If He had not DIED for your sins then you could not be set free. Someone has to pay the penalty for your crimes. It was either you or Christ.

The penalty of sin is DEATH! Without death (the shedding of blood) there is no remission of sin.

God just doesnt ignore sin. He is just. It must be punished. And Christ was punished for our sins by death. When Gods wrath was satisfied He was raised again for our justification.

One would think that punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty would be wrong, but its not if the innocent is willing to take the blame out of love.
---JackB on 9/30/10


This is exactly why I believe what sends a man to hell is not the many sins he has committed in his lifetime but for rejecting the Son of God who has already died for those sins.

Its spitting in the face of God after He has loving extended his hand offering freedom.
---JackB on 9/30/10


Kathr, you cannot help yourself calling everything Calvin. Not one mention of Calvin is found anywhere. Christ could have done anything He wanted, but did what the Father told Him to do. So please stop your dumb remarks. You cannot compromise Scripture, you give meaning not found in the Bible when you twist verses around for your own glory and purpose. If you cannot control you hate you should not be here pretending to be a sister who loves others as you say in many of your answers. I have explained passages in detail to you, word for word, so I know you don't really care about the Truth. And the reason I answer is because others who don't respond can look for themselves in the Scriptures and God might reveal some truth to them for that day.
---MarkV. on 9/30/10


He could have taken all our sins and not died.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10

I totally disagree here MarkV, and if Christ had not died, YOU would have nothing to identify with in His death.

Remember I am Crucified with Christ. Romans 6-8 Galatians 2:20-21!!!WE DIED with Christ is as much a part of your salvation as anything else.

THAT is what you nor Calvin or Calvinism will never understand.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/10


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Kathr, I really don't know what straw man represents, so I won't answer to that but on your statement on 9/29/10 where you said,
"Our sins did not kill Jesus. He died for our sins. The point to michael-e is that many anti-semitic want to blame the Jews for being Christ killers! Michael_e,"
that statement is very true. The RCC promoted that all through history, In fact the Church taught that short of murder, no punisment, no suffering, no obloquy was too severe for the descendants of those who had refused to recognize the Messiah."
Perhaps in persecuting the Jews, they were trying to escape their own guilt. But you are right.
---MarkV. on 9/30/10


Kathr, my correction was to show the difference in what you said and what happened to Jesus. He died as a substitute for our sins. He took the sins of all of us on Himself, but that is not what killed Him. He could have taken all our sins and not died. The plan called for a sacrifice. " He sacrificed Himself for us."All humans when born are dead in sin. It is a spiritual death. But Jesus did not die spiritually instead He died physically. And was ordained from the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:20. The writer of Heb. 13:20 refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant" While the glory of God is displayed in the whole realm of creation, it was to be especially displayed in the work of redemption.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


//So michael_e, are you suggesting still Jesus didn't EXPLAIN His death and resurrection to His disciples?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10//

Mark 9:32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Why did they not understand?
Luke 18:34 4And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them...(the 12)

Paul must have understood
Ephes. 3:4-6 Gal. 1:11-13 Rom. 16:25
---michael_e on 9/29/10


Maybe teh word KILL is offensive to some. However listen:

Exodus 12:21
Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Exodus 29:11
And thou shalt kill the bullock before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.


Mark 9:31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him, and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


So michael_e, are you suggesting still Jesus didn't EXPLAIN His death and resurrection to His disciples?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


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Our sins did not kill Jesus. He died for our sins. MarkV. on 9/29/10

MarkV, straw man here...

Our sins did not kill Jesus. He died for our sins. The point to michael-e is that many anti-semitic want to blame the Jews for being Christ killers! Michael_e, if the Jews had accepted Jesus as KING right then and NO CROSS, where would YOU be today???




Under the RULE of OT Law, the wages of SIN is death. Jesus fulfilled the LAW when HE DIED for our sin. Yes, my sin, Jesus was put to Death for. He died in my place so I can have eternal life through Him. God placed MY SIN and yours on Jesus at Calvary.

At that moment Jesus said, My God Why has thou forsaken me.

Jesus tasted death for US.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


MarkV.
yes you were wrong in what what you interpreted.

I said that the reason why the NT epistles were written was to correct error, and to encourage or edify the churc.

I never said they were not valid at all, nor did i claim that only the OT was authoritative.

I also said that when they apostles used the word scripture, they were not referring to thier own epistles, but rathetr to what we call the OT.


I never excluded NT in anything, and you are wrong to say that my stance is one of works,
Do you honour your father and mother?
Do you consider that works?

Do you refrain from adultery?
Do you consider that works?

Do you refrain from idolatry and theft?
Do you consider that works?
---francis on 9/29/10


//kathr4453 on 9/29/10 The reason you can't see it is because you were not there at that time, did not grow up under the Law//
How are you able to see it?
//Yet peter delivered to Cornelius, a GENTILE the same message//
Isn't there a difference in the sequence of events in ACTS 2 and Acts 10?

Kath, For someone to say you murdered someone and have someone say someone died for you is different in any language.
---michael_e on 9/29/10


Our sins did not kill Jesus. He died for our sins. He was being obedient to the Father for He was ordained from the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin. 1 Peter 1:20. Sins cannot kill Christ. If they could sin, sin would be Omnipotent. They are acts of sinful man.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


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Francis, on 9/26/10 you made such claims. The only Scriptures you claim the Old Testament as only Authoritive. And even gave four reasons why. Was I wrong in what I read? please explain if you didn't mean what you said. As I said you are right in many of your answers but to exclude the New Testament as the Word of God is wrong. I believe that when they said Scripture they meant the Old Testement and all that Jesus had taught them. Jesus was to provide the means through the Holy Spirit to make sure all of what was written by the writers was to be the New Testament or New Covenant now provided for the Gentles. Your stance keeps you in the Old Covenant of Works. Maybe you didn't mean what I thought you meant, so please explain if you want.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


Now get this the declaration that the christ had come was NOT DONE IN EPISTLES, it was done in PERSON.
---francis on 9/28/10

Your post is another in a line of posts to try and prove that the NT is just a continuation of the OT. It is not. Just as Hebrews says, there is a new covenant and Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.

The NT books of Matt, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts all deal with this fact, that Christ has come and Jesus is His name and that He died on the cross and rose on the third day.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/10


These scriptures don't say the same thing or mean the sme thing
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ
Acts 3:12-20
---michael_e on 9/28/10

well michael_e to you a gentile it wouldn't seem the same would it?? but to a JEW it means EXACTLY the same thing.

The reason you can't see it is because you were not there at that time, did not grow up under the Law and prophets that pointed to CHRIST/Messiah or Isaiah 53...and as a gentile would be ignorant of such words. Peter was addressing JEWS, not gentiles. Yet peter delivered to Cornelius, a GENTILE the same message...Jesus is both Lord and Christ!
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


Francis 2, you are right, letters were sent to other apostles and many times for reasons you gave. They were having problems and for other reasons. But God considered all of it as Truth. Because the whole of the New Testament comes together for our knowledge, and conduct after we have been saved. Peter in his epistles gave a generous hint that this process was happening even while he was alive, he saw his writing being permanently available: "I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember this things" (2 Peter 1:15). The public reading of the apostles writings alongside the Old Testament further indicated that God was bringing together the New Testament Scriptures as the Word of God.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


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---MarkV. on 9/28/10
hey I never ever said any of the things you claimed i say
---francis on 9/29/10


Francis, your teaching that the New Testament is not God's inpired Word. That only the Old Testemant is authentic as the inspired Word of God. If you believe that, then you have no gospel of Christ. You need the gospel, and to believe it by faith in order to be save, and here you stand and say the New Testament is not the inspired Word of God. Jesus gave the apostles the very words the Father had given Him (John 17:8) and promised to sent the Holy Spirit to teach them, guide them, and recall to their minds all that He had told them during his earthly ministry (John 14:26, 16:13) Part of the Spirits guidance pertained to the writing of the 27 books that compose the New Testament. I know you are very wrong.
---MarkV. on 9/28/10


//kathr4453 on 9/28/10 Did he not die for your sin?//
1 Cor.15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
Rom.5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
These scriptures don't say the same thing or mean the sme thing
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ
Acts 3:12-20
---michael_e on 9/28/10


Do you believe these scripture says Our sins killed the Christ?
---michael_e on 9/28/10

michael did not you sin put Christ on the cross. Did he not die for your sin?


You know God had a plan for Joseph, and he had to be rejected by his brethren and left for dead for God's plan to come to pass.

What some meant for evil, God meant for good.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/10


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Letters written by the Apostles to the churches were written to correct doctrinal error.
Mark_Eaton on 9/28/10

MARK I see you just posted the same thing you called rubbish that letters were written to correct error.

Now get this the declaration that the christ had come was NOT DONE IN EPISTLES, it was done in PERSON.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them,

He did not write an epistle he metthem in person.

Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Acts 10:23 And on the morrow Peter went away with them,

Peter did not send a letter to declare christ, he went INPERSON.
---francis on 9/28/10


//michael_e.....your sin killed Jesus! don't ever forget that!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/10//
1 Cor.15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
Rom.5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Do you believe these scripture says Our sins killed the Christ?
---michael_e on 9/28/10


the books of the New testement are written for 2 reason
1: To correct doctrinal error
2: To encourage the saints
---francis on 9/28/10

I wish you would stop posting this rubbish.

The books of the NT were written to declare that Christ has come and that His name is Jesus. This is the gospel and this is the REASON God spoke the NT into existance.

Letters written by the Apostles to the churches were written to correct doctrinal error.

Someone needs to write to you to correct your doctrinal error.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/10


the books of the New testement are written for 2 reason
1: To correct doctrinal error
2: To encourage the saints

remember, the Apostles were not writing letters to the churches which they were present in. They wrote to churches away from them to help solve problems. If there were no issues they would not have a need to write.

to correct these problems the Apostles used ONE source which could be search daily to see if these things were true

That ONE source was what we call the OT
---francis on 9/28/10


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michael_e, For God so loved the world HE GAVE. God gave Jesus to be a sacrifice to DIE for our sin.

They were asked to repent turning from SIN and the OT law. Why, because God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ. They rejected the savior, and were now asked to repent, seeing God raised up Jesus from the dead. proving to them Jesus was in fact the Messiah who came to take away their sin.

michael_e.....your sin killed Jesus! don't ever forget that!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/10


//francis on 9/28/10 You mean what the 12 were preaching BEFORE paul had no teaching of salvation IN JESUS?//

No that is not my point. The point is the 12 were preaching to the nation of Israel, that they had killed their messiah and they need to repent (Acts 2:36-38.)

Paul teaches us (Jew and Gentile) that Christ died for our sins (1Cor 15:1-4)
If it's different it's not the same.
---michael_e on 9/28/10


michael_e, Paul never converted Peter and the other Apostles to salvation. Peter bringing the OTHER GOSPEL to Cornelius would be odd that a Jew would preach the Kingdom restored to Israel to a Gentile making a Gentile in submission to Jews!

Peter and the apostles asked Jesus Acts 1:6-7 if God AT THIS TIME was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel...michael_e Jesus told them NO, only the Father knew when that would be.

So you are teaching that the Apostles DISOBEYED Jesus and preached it anyway!

Please find a verse Paul converted Peter, John, etc???

What was the mystery given to Paul? THAT Gentiles and Jews saved today are ONE NEW MAN!!! A totally NEW concept to Jews that all are ONE and on the same level.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/10


michael_e on 9/27/10

way to salvation was thru Paul's new revelations???

You mean what the 12 were preaching BEFORE paul had no teaching of salvation IN JESUS?
Are you saying that it was not until PAUL, that the gospel of SALVATION came?

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
---francis on 9/28/10


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---francis on 9/27/10 //
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you,

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.//

Peter late in his life knew the way to salvation was thru Paul's new revelations, and not OT economy, but why do you think it was hard for him to understand? Maybe because the 12 were steeped in Judaism.
---michael_e on 9/27/10


He refers to the OT. many times in saying we are n0t under Law.
---michael_e


2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you,

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
---francis on 9/27/10


I believe 2 Timothy was Paul's last letter,
so he could have easily been talking about NT epistles.
He refers to the OT. many times in saying we are n0t under Law.
---michael_e on 9/27/10


WELL SAID FRANCIS!
---AG on 9/26/10


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1: The divisions between the books of the OT and NT, much like chapters and verses are man made, and not inspired by God.
2: None of the apostles, except the writer of revelation, expected that their writing would be called scripture. When they wrote the word "scripture," they were refering to what we now call the OT.
3: When paul wrote " all scripture is given by inspiration.." he meant all of what we call the OT
4: When the Bereans searched the scriptures.. they search the OT.

So I believe what the BIBLE says: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word...
And so the writings of the OT as just as valuable to me for doctrine as it was to teh apostles who used it when they write epistles.
---Francis on 9/26/10


Paul wrote the following concerning the Old Testament:

2Ti 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Who are we to argue with that?
---jerry6593 on 9/25/10


lionel Apparently Adventists do not distinguish between the Old & New Covenants but hold that certain laws in the OT not found within the New are also binding on Christians. They believe only the sacrificial laws were done away with, not the Sabbath which merely prefigured the believers rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3)
---lee on 1/22/08


AG
Steveng
Tell me if any thing that I posted was incorect in your oponion.
---lionel on 1/9/08


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AG
Steveng
Tell me if any thing that I posted was incorect in your oponion.
---lionel on 1/9/08


The only rules & instruction in the OT that apply today are those that are found also in the New Testament. God made a NEW covenant (a legally binding agreement) with His creation and since the church is under the New Covenant only, only those tenets in the New Covenant are obligatory. Such things as circumcision, sabbath keeping, dietary laws, etc. are not in the New Covenant and are optional.
---lee on 1/9/08


lionel: "There are things in the old testament that apply to the Jews and only them..."

In the beginning there were no Jews. God's laws was even then from the beginning. Abraham was favored by God among all men to begin the Jewish nation. The purpose was to bring the knowledge of God to the world. But their pride got in the way thinking that God only liked them. God was, is and ever shall be, so is his laws.
---Steveng on 12/27/07


lionel,
Pls give examples of rules that apply only to jews.

Then pls tell me which rules apply to me.

See I was raised Baptist, but my great great grandfather was jewish. Am I a Jew?
Or what about my Mormon friend who converted to Judaism, is he a Jew. What about his children?
Also my Israeli friend was raised in Jerusalem by an orthodox jewish family, but converted to Buddism. Is he still a Jew?
---AG on 12/24/07


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There are things in the old testament that apply to the Jews and only them.
There are things that apply to the gentiles.
Some things apply to man in general.
The key is not to apply whats said to one group, and apply it to every one.
For instance God gave religeous rituals to the Jews.
In the old testament the law was given to the jews.
---lionel on 12/20/07


"I look at Paul similar to the way many look upon Mary."

Oops, typo!

I do NOT look at Paul that way.
I meant to say:
"I think some look at Paul similar to the way many look upon Mary."

He's almost been diefied by many christians.
---AG on 12/20/07


Carla5754,
What does it prove is Paul wrote nothing on the subject?
I look at Paul similar to the way many look upon Mary.

Are Paul's writings superior than any other biblical author? No. His letters constitute less than 39% of the NT and less than 9% of the entire bible. (That's including the disputed book of Hebrews.)

Remember:
For any NT writing to be canonized it had to pass certain tests. One being that it could not contradict what had already been written.
---AG on 12/19/07


Jesus and the apostles often referred to the OT for teaching the Kingdom of God and how to get there. If the OT teachings have no bearing upon the Christians, why would they continue teaching from the OT. The Bereans were told to search the scriptures for the truth and for learning. What scriptures were they searching when the NT wasn't created? What scriptures were the Christians learning from for the first 500 years?
---Steveng on 12/18/07


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RitaH,
I'm curious if you see Rom 14 a little differently.
Paul was writing about the gnostic teachings of self-denial. Not about OT instructions.
The gnostic influence taught believers to eat only veggies, as opposed to eating all CLEAN foods (meat & vegtables).

You see if Paul had contradicted the OT or Yeshua his letters would have been thrown out and considered uninspired.

It's important to try view scripture from the beginning forward vs from the present backward.
---AG on 12/18/07


The eternal law of righteousness (ten commandments) applies to the whole world, but the statutes judgements and ordinances applied only to Israel as they left Egypt, it was their constitution. All these will apply in the Kingdom of 1000 years.
---cheryl on 12/16/07


RitaH,
Romans 14 is a GREAT example. What I mean is if you accept that God does not change and therefore the OT & NT are in complete agreement, it changes your perspective of Rom 14. You'll see (like all of Paul's writings) it does not conflict with any part of the OT.
It is important to view Rom 14 through the light of Paul's previous writing. One of the helpful keys to understanding Rom 14 is to remember that it is preceded by Romans chapter 13.
---AG on 12/15/07


AG, There is only one thing that I can think of which fits this category. That is that in the Old Testament there are many rules about eating or not eating certain foods because they are unclean . Lev. 11:5-8 for example. In the New Testament Romans 14 has something different to say on the subject.
---RitaH on 12/12/07


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They apply to the non-Christian today. When they stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgement they will be judged by the various commandments given, not only to the Jew, but to anyone who rejects salvation through Christ. Christians had the laws of the OT FULFILLED for them by Christ. (Matthew 5:12)
---wivv on 12/10/07


RitaH,
I'm not sure how we can assume New Testament scripture has authority to invalidate Old Testament scripture. To me that's an oxymoron. It's like saying the Son can invalidate the Father.

I don't see where NT scripture invalidates any OT rules, instructions or commandments. I see the two testaments being in complete agreement, just as the Father and Son are. They are two sides of the same coin.
---AG on 12/10/07


I agree with Rita and want to add: God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He never forgets His word, no matter when and what time of the century He spoke it. "Has He not said it? and will He not do it? It doesn't say and will He not do it in the New Testament? Just like we want the goody scriptures/blessings to apply to us in the OT, we have to obey the OT rules and regulations. No Adultery, No false idols, No killing, etc.,
---Donna on 12/10/07


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