Obviously we have not all had the same experience with A.A. or Alanon. This just goes to show that meeting vary depending on who is running them and who attends them. My experience at Alanon and the experiences of 2 friends and one relative at A.A. have been that the others present did not want anyone to speak of God or Jesus and they certainly wanted NO PRAYER except the Serenity Prayer. No doubt some meetings are better than ours were. |
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---RitaH on 1/14/08 |
Trish9863: "Jesus is my higher power." Your statement transcends 12, 13, etc., steps. Reminds me of Paul's explanation to the Greeks on Mars Hill about the unknown God they worshipped. Good for you!
A recovered by the blood of Jesus alcoholic, I've been born-again & sober since 1974 without AA. Receiving Jesus is the "ultimate step" leading to healing sobriety.
God bless & keep you. |
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---WARC182 on 1/14/08 |
Andrea: You hit the nail on the head. Amen and amen. Thank you. |
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---Trish9863 on 1/8/08 |
there are good reasons you don't have to worry about 12-step groups being a cult.
1) there's no money involved
2) no one gets famous
3) they do a lot of praying and who knows that God doesn't use a Christian fighting an addiction to minister to the lost that go to AA
get over your doctrines - God wants addicts delivered - the church isn't getting the job done.
There is more integrity taught and kept in a 12-step group then in most any church |
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---Andrea on 1/8/08 |
Hi Catherine, loved your response and hope you still see this, your response was soooooo refreshing! :) God bless ya sister :) |
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---Mary on 12/30/07 |
I wouldn't think that these self-help programs were cults. We do not have to go around thinking that everything is a "CULT". I mean, we are all a little tilt, but we do not have to be that much tilt. Have a good day. |
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---catherine on 12/19/07 |
If i did not know better i would think we were talking about curing Alcoholism with Exorcisim. |
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---john_morgan on 12/19/07 |
It is true that the guy who put together the Orange Papers is abrasive. But he does tell the truth. The stats he uses are AA's own, taken from its triennial member surveys. AA's success rate is about five percent, the same as for people who want to get sober on their own, or in church, or some other way. |
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---InimicusStultitiae on 12/12/07 |
RitaH ... I know you would not pour scorn ... I was not talking of you! |
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---alan_of_UK on 12/11/07 |
Statistics regarding drug and alcohol addiction are not always trustworthy. For one thing, nobody can know exactly how many people go to an AA meeting in one location and never come back, but go to a meeting at another location and continue for years. This is due to the confidentiality issue. And there is no way that anyone can keep statistics on whether or not someome is staying sober/straight. It is just not possible. Most rehab stats are presented so that the facility looks credible. |
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---Susie on 12/11/07 |
In #2:AA, as with all groups, has the potential for failure, at the individual group level. I have attended AA groups that are run by fanatical Nazi types. I have also attended some terrific meetings where recovery and hope are paramount to the discussions. Just as any other recovery model has its potential for failure, AA also has some level of failure. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/11/07 |
In #3: The problem with recovery and failure is that there are MANY variables to relapse, not just the program of recovery. I was a chronic relapser. I am dually diagnosed, and have other issues that make recovery more challenging. Most patients who are dually diagnosed have difficulty maintaining long term sobriety, as I have worked with many professionally in a treatment center. The goal is to shorten the relapses and prolong the periods of sobriety. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/11/07 |
In #4 I do not believe it is appropriate to trash any particular program of recovery, because you do not have hard scientific evidence that AA does not work. My research, done in graduate school, showed that participation in a support group helps ensure long term sobriety in most people with an addiction problem. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/11/07 |
Rita: In all my 18 years in AA, I have never been treated poorly when I share that Jesus is my higher power. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/11/07 |
In: Your Orange Paper website sounds like an anti 12 step crusade. I saw no title of any article that would give me your statistics. In fact, I read an article which stated it is impossible to get statistics on the suicide rate of AA members. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/11/07 |
Alan I would never pour scorn on anyone who is genuinely helped by AA (or relatives and friends who are helped by Alanon) but it is a fact that some groups are more helpful than others. The term higher power is not used in the way that the founders of AA intended. People can say that "Mickey Mouse is my higher power" and that's fine but if someone says "Jesus is my higher power" it is they who are scorned and told "You mustn't bring your religious beliefs here." |
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---RitaH on 12/11/07 |
Trish9863, you can do a Google search for Orange Papers for the stats. I also draw from my own experience, watching people come and go in AA, having attended 6000-7000 meetings over a 40-year period. |
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---InimicusStultitiae on 12/11/07 |
Many of my closest Christian friends do not attend AA/NA although they completed the rehab program where I used to work. Their main reason for not attending those meetings is that they are treated badly if they even try to say that their Higher Power is Jesus Christ. I have known dozens of people in recovery who actively attended these meetings who died of overdose of drugs and alcohol. |
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---Susie on 12/10/07 |
Inimicus, what research shows those stats? My studies have shown different statistics. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/10/07 |
Rita, you got that right! AA meetings are an addiction for many. A lot of that is also manipulation by fear, telling people they will get drunk if they don't go to meetings, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. |
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---InimicusStultitiae on 12/10/07 |
The biggest problem with AA is that it is a miserable failure in getting people sober, as 95 percent of those who go there drop out within a year. Fifty percent drop out after their first meeting, they find it so weird. |
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---InimicusStultitiae on 12/10/07 |
InimicusStultitiae ... Maybe that was because they had been exposed to the scorn that is shown by many Christians (including some here) for anyone who finds that AA helps |
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---alan_of_UK on 12/10/07 |
I suppose it could be substitute for relying on the Holy Spirit, leaning not on our own understanding, but God's.
AA is church for most people that attend and as Trish said, your God can be anything you want it to be. |
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---Chad on 12/10/07 |
Perhaps whether or not an alcoholic believes in God depends on which part of the country you live in.People in the midwest seem to believe in God more.I did notice when I lived in FL.for 3 years people believed strongly in God.I think in the East and North they believe less. |
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---shirley on 12/10/07 |
I would not describe them as cults but I would say that it is possible to swap one addiction for another by attending. Some groups are much better than others but it is possible to become addicted to attending meetings to the point where you cannot miss one and sometimes flit from one venue to another so that you can go EVERY day. I know someone who does this and has for many years. |
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---RitaH on 12/10/07 |
I've been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous for close to 25 years. Today, I'm a licensed chemical dependency counselor and use the 12-steps of AA as the basis of recovery. We need God to restore us! Where did you even get the idea that AA was a cult? You will see more love in an AA meeting that is most church services. They don't just talk about doing something....they do it!! |
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---Annie on 12/10/07 |
Shirley, that is interesting. The majority of people who went to 12-step meetings I attended were indifferent or hostile to Christianity. |
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---InimicusStultitiae on 12/10/07 |
They are not cults. I have been a member of AA for over 18 years. They do not worship anything, and they do not try to brainwash you into believing anything other than to stop drinking with the help of whomever you call God. |
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---Trish9863 on 12/10/07 |
They are definetly not cults.My alcoholic husband stayed sober over 8 years before he died with the help of AA.They refer to the higher power all the time.To my hb and me that is Jesus Christ and everyone who attended the meetings that we did thought the same.Almost all of the main speakers were leaders in their churches and said with the help of God and AA they stayed sober. |
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---shirley on 12/10/07 |
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