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Abortion A Political Issue

Should abortion be a political issue?

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 ---Dustin on 1/7/08
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It should be put in its rightful place among Crimes against the Nation (or a particularly defenceless segment of the nation).

The murdered infants should not be used as political sticks by any party least of all the RCC.

That was how Bush was 'elected' and 'reelected'.
---frances008 on 3/1/08


I don't see how prevention of birth is the same as murdering infants in the womb, at all. I also don't think women should have to have a child every year, in fact I think it is abuse of women to make them into baby producers rather than precious women to look after the precious child/children they already have given birth too. It is also too much strain on the finances which the husband is then left to produce on his own because his wife is forever at home.
---frances008 on 3/1/08


An issue the Bible most definitely takes sides on is abortion. Jeremiah 1:5 Psalm 139:13-16 Exodus 21:22-25 This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb as just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a womans right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in Gods image (Genesis 1:26-27, 9:6). Therefore, I believe Christians should strongly support candidates who are pro-life.
---Court7646 on 2/29/08


The world is so wicked that the lives of millions of innocent 'children' have been wrecklessly used as bait to get votes that would allow other innocent children to die in a war in Iraq. When will the world wake up and see it is the evil BISHOPS that are to blame for the world's ills.
---frances on 1/29/08


Emcee:

No I'm not. The USA has ALWAYS had legal immigrant workers and illegal immigrant workers and slave workers - for CENTURIES before abortion was legal. The manpower shortage has always been because there was more work available than there were workers willing and able to do it. While Abortion may have contributed to this, it did not do so significantly and was NOT the cause of it,
---StrongAxe on 1/29/08




Yes Emcee .. this blog is getting "mixed up" ... partly by you and partly by my response to you!
I am not saying physical barriers are right or wrong.
I was just saying that you appeared to think that use of a physical barrier, or of abstinence (I never mentioned Onanism at all) is abortion.
Those do not constitute abortion, which is the destruction of a fertilised embryo, or foetus.
With abstinence and physical barrier, there is no fertisation, so no abortion, & no murder.
---alan_of_UK on 1/28/08


Alan of UK::Genesis 38:10 read the story of O'nan & compare it to your theory of prevention of Conception.Was GOD pleased ?my Friend I only present Facts not Mine but God's.Arguementation does not solve an issue on the basis of "He said, she said"
---Emcee on 1/28/08


Strongaxe:: You are evaiding the issue.what caused the shortage of Manpower?the solution to this shortage was Immigration & IMHO shortage of Man power is cause by a low birth rate & a high incidence of aged people.Hence I declare that abortion is the real cause ,we need immediate manpower caused by Mans refusal to carry out the law of God to increase & multiply. God made a perfect world & man is destroying it. GOD'S perfect plan.
---Emcee on 1/26/08


This blog is getting mixed up & we are discussing more than one issue. It needs to be separated.
1.AbortionRight Or wrong
2.Abortion & its consequences
---Emcee on 1/26/08


Alan of Uk.Physical Barriers were not instituted by God But By man to Thwart the intention of God.Therefore IMHO they are wrong.Regarding 0ne child per year,is not Your choice as every act does not produce a God given gift.Which in the minds of Men is wrong.Its the fear of illicit Conception, & trust,that makes sinful man use ungodly methods to gain gods gift of Pleasure defeating His purpose.I shall overlook your interjection, my friend.
---Emcee on 1/26/08




1#
Are we to assume that what is Gods will will be or can be prevented from coming to be, I doubt it. If life is going to prevented it's going to come about in the unseen boundries of the eyes of God he knows where life will be permitted and he knows where life will be prevented and those that prevent life is not where God would plant a life to be concieved. Mary said let it be as God had planned , Jesus was born.
---Carla5754 on 1/26/08


Because all people come from different walks of life and understanding, were not all going to agree but those that take time out to read the word of God and have an understanding what is right and wrong and that we are not her for our own selfish ambitions and the EARTH IS THE LORDS AND THE FULLNESS THEREOF those will benefit from the Blessings of that knowledge and will not sin against God. Those that choose to use this world to please themselves will reap from those desires, so why argue?
---Carla5754 on 1/26/08


By physical barrier I mean a condom or other barrier to prevent the sperm reaching the egg.
If that is wrong, so is abstinence, since that also prevents conception.
But neither are abortion, which is of a fertilised egg or foetus.
Do you think each married woman should have a child a year?
Why does the RC forbid condoms ... it gives rise in Africa to an appalling toll of AIDS and HIV ... is that God's will? Phooeee
---alan_of_UK on 1/25/08


AlanOf Uk::What do you mean by a physical Barrier?I dont believe this is in HIS Word of Creation?as it interferes with His (Gods) intention. If we use it, then we are violating His Natural law.In truthfullness & Honesty was not Immigration a tool in the hands of our appointed governments??AGAIN to fill WHAT VOID? were not the people of the land capable of Maintaining their own numbers??Now its a fact it has created severe problems or dont you agree.
---Emcee on 1/25/08


Emcee:

Immigrant workers in the USA are not here because of abortion. They are here because there are jobs that Americans are not willing and able to do.

Otherwise, how could you have an immigrant problem AND an unemployment problem? There are immigrants doing jobs AND there are many Ameicans who are available to work, but they aren't. If abortion was such a severe drain on manpower, there would be more jobs available than people, rather than the other way around.
---StrongAxe on 1/25/08


Emcee ...~ 1 Ifyou read my #3 again you will see that I am not surporting abortion as a means of population control.
I was saying that abstinence and physical barrier are not abortion.
BUt you seem to say they are, and that we shopuild reproduce at every possible opportunity, since God has His methods of keeping the population under control
---alan_of_UK on 1/24/08


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Emcee ...~ 2 .
Maybe one of His means of this is the rapid expansion in Africa of AIDS and HIV, caused partly by the RCs condemnation of the use of condoms.
Why do you say abstinence and barrier are contrary to God's will? Where in the Bible is that? (Or spermicidal cream ... that is nopt abortion, because it just prevents the sperm meeting the egg, so there is never a foetus to abort)
---alan_of_UK on 1/24/08


In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!
---lisa on 1/24/08


There are 10 Biblical reasons why abortion is wrong. another is this. consider Job 3:16: "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been, as infants which never saw light." Did you see that? Job referred to unborn children as INFANTS. Not fetuses! Not masses of tissue! INFANTS! In God's eyes, an unborn child is a living human baby. God never says once that an unborn child is anything less than a human being.
---lisa on 1/24/08


David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.
---lisa on 1/24/08


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Strongaxe::"A thread about abortion develops into ILLEGAL immigration"I guess you missed the point quoting the Richest people cited by You. (no bearing on the subject)The solution to the dearth of bodies produced, by natural inhabitants, resulted in Immigration by Goverments who saw a band aid solution.There fore the answer to the problem stop Abortion & you will not have to rely on imported manpower.proving the biblical theory of Increase & multiply.
---Emcee on 1/24/08


.

Murder of the unborn baby(abortion) is nothing more than the ultimate Hate Crime!---colupy on 1/22/08

OXYMORON ALERT!!

If an immoral act (which it is) is made legal, no one can EVER call a legal act illegal.

It is a contradiction in terms, hence an oxymoron.
---John_T on 1/24/08


Emcee:

What seems a pittance to some is a bounty for others. People in third world countries work for dollars a week and live quite contented productive lives (in contrast with wealthy people like Paris Hilton. And remember Kristina Onassis? The richest girl on earth - and one of the mos troubled).

If there are jobs that lazy affluent Americans are unwilling to do, but hard-working people from other countries are more than happy to, both sides win by letting them.
---StrongAxe on 1/24/08


I also find it curious that a thread about abortion has mutated into one about illegal immigration.

It's als quite ironic that the same people who are lamenting that abortion is reducing the workforce are also the same people who complain about immigrants saturating the job market and causing unemployment.

Either we want a larger workforce or we don't - we can't have it both ways.
---StrongAxe on 1/24/08


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Kitso: Even more fundamental, Do we want government officials who (contrary to their oaths of office) will not enforce existing immigration laws? What gives them the right to be selective in which laws they enforce and which they do not?
---jerry6593 on 1/23/08


Not defending the borders hurts minorities.

America should defend the border as much as mexico defends its southern border.
---MikeM on 1/22/08


StrongAxe::Would you work 16 hours aday for a pittance seems by your explaination you are agreeable to slave labour,or am I overestimating?You may already be aware of the infiltration of immigrants who are pervading the American way of life, with disasterous effects.Do you blame the Immigrants or the American Societies unthoughtful non- conformist actions.This is prevalent in the present day society.
---Emcee on 1/22/08


Jerry/Alan:: To set the record straight I stand corrected. But it is IMHO thwarting GOD's Law, with resultant effect to some cide.
---Emcee on 1/22/08


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Alan of Uk:: I read with interestyour 3 para article. What we as humans discern is different to what God envisions,so any thought in that direction puts us in a position of examining the mind of the Almighty.We do not question the Almighty but trust, He is the supreme Controller.In His perfection,He has however foreseen the enevibility for overpopulation, which you have explained & Abortion is not in His Manual.We do have recompense to limited & regulated Families HIS WAY.
---Emcee on 1/22/08


Strong axe ::Even Bitter medicine is sugar coated.we are not talking small potatoes or industries "not willing to work "may be part of the problem but Manpower Replacement can only be engendered from within a nation.Would you kill the goose that laid the golden EGG? that is what ABORTION is doing.THAT is the TRUTH.
---Emcee on 1/22/08


Strong axe ::Even Bitter medicine is sugar coated.we are not talking small potatoes or industries "not willing to work "may be part of the problem but Manpower Replacement can only be engendered from within a nation.Would you kill the goose that laid the golden EGG? that is what ABORTION is doing.THAT is the TRUTH.
---Emcee on 1/22/08


Murder of the unborn baby(abortion) is nothing more than the ultimate Hate Crime!
---colupy on 1/22/08


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Axey: My source is any good almanac. It will have the crude death rates from abortion and diseases. The "medical mistakes" I arrived at by combining the deaths resulting from doctor, hospital and pharmaceutical errors.

Alan: You're right. Abortion is not "genocide." It is "infanticide" on a massive scale.
---jerry6593 on 1/22/08


a more interesting thought would be what will god do with them?
---tom2 on 1/22/08


Strongaxe, it's the other way round. If people can pay illegals lower wages, then of course Americans will no longer be willing to do those jobs at these depressed rates.

A nation not willing to defend its borders will cease to be a nation. Pandering to illegals is also grossly unfair to the legal immigrants waiting in line.
---Ktisophilos on 1/21/08


Emcee:

The reason America needs immigration is because most Americans aren't willing to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week running a convenience store, or to pick tobacco or cotton or oranges for minimum wage.

There is a lot of unemployment in this country, yet there are some jobs that only legal immigrants (and illegals) are willing to do.
---StrongAxe on 1/19/08


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jerry6593:

Oops, you're right, I meant 300 million, not 300 thousand.

Also, where do you get your statistics, about leading causes of death? It seems quite different from what I have read elsewhere.
---StrongAxe on 1/19/08


Emcee # 3 "Will He not exact retribution for this CRIME OF SIN against HIS decreee of increase & Multiply"
That instruction was given to a particular people at a particular time, when the world was depleted of its popoulation.
Did God say we should go on multiplying so fast?
Doubling population every year since Noah would mean there would now be a mass of humanity some miles thick, so the suggestion God wanted us to produce one child each a year can't be taken seriously.
---alan_of_UK on 1/18/08


Emcee # 3 "Will He not exact retribution for this CRIME OF SIN against HIS decreee of increase & Multiply"
That instruction was given to a particular people at a particular time, when the world was depleted of its popoulation.
Did God say we should go on multiplying so fast?
Doubling population every year since Noah would mean there would now be a mass of humanity some miles thick, so the suggestion God wanted us to produce one child each a year can't be taken seriously.
---alan_of_UK on 1/18/08


Emcee # 1 Ah but you know I am bit of a pedant ... and abortion is not genocide.
It does kill each year in the world far more than the numbers killed in genocides.
It is worng and evil
BUT it is not genocide!
---alan_of_UK on 1/18/08


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Emcee # 2 ... You say "This (abortion?) is being perpetrated by I would say 99% of married People"
You must be joking! You seem to say that each married couple should produce a child a year, and if they don't do so it is abortion.
Is birth control by abstinence abortion? Surely not!
Even b/c by physical barrier is not abortion, even though the RCC disapproves of this method of keeping the sperm from the egg
---alan_of_UK on 1/18/08


Strong axe::Humanity cannot produce an Abortion figure as it changes from Minute to Minute.But The truth will always be revealed Jerry has produced a minimal figure.Your assesment of Population figures which again is a mistake & more in the millions.But in fairness what % of those figures are immigrants?.Yes God gave us a decree to increase IS it Happening in America & other modernised countries?why do we need immigration?"This above all to thine own self be true"
---Emcee on 1/18/08


Alan of Uk::Geonicide is Not the issue here but Abortion is tantamount to geonicide.This is being perpetrated by I would say 99% of married People,Be consciously Fair: if each participating Couple produced an issueThe population of the world would increase by100%a year. Does it?Are we Gods to control this Fact ? Will He not exact retribution for this CRIME OF SIN.against HIS decreee of increase & Multiply.?Are we as CHRISTIANS obliged to honour His command?
---Emcee on 1/18/08


Axey: Your stats are off by a factor of 1000. Here's some interesting statistics on the leading causes of death in the US - in order:

#1 Abortions
#2 Medical mistakes
#3 Cardiovascular disease
#4 Cancer
#5 Diabetes

You get the picture. We spend trillions on medical research and health care, but sweep the big ones under the carpet. Why?
---jerry6593 on 1/18/08


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Emcee:

When I was growing up in the 60s, the US population was around 200,000. now it's over 300,000 and growing.

I hear you quoting statistics, and then when I ask about them, you say that it isn't you saying it, but the Author and Giver of Life.

I don't recall the Bible having any abortion statistics. Or do you have some private revelation that we know nothing about?

Can you provide some sources for your numbers?
---StrongAxe on 1/17/08


`

So my question from 1/12 still stands, is it murder? ---MikeM


Yes, it is still murder.

However, we do not live in a theocracy, in the US, we have a republican form of government. In their collective wisdom, our courts and representatives, believing the lies put forth by Planned Parenthood, etc made provision whereby an immoral act is now legal.

It will ALWAYS be immoral to abort a fetus as a form of birth control. How long it remains legal is another issue.
---Observer on 1/16/08


3# time to ask, if abortion is murder, what do we do with those who have/proform them?
---MikeM on 1/16/08


YES. I do not see how anyone in their right mind can expect God to bless a nation if we don't address some of these moral issues. Do you believe that God is in favour of abortion? Do you think that God winks at sin? He does not. I believe that it is just a matter of time when God is going to pay a great visit upon this nation. He will not come smileing.
---catherine on 1/16/08


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The American Constitution was formed to limit the power of any one branch of government, by providing checks and balances. This was consistent with the biblical doctrine of the Fall. By contrast, the secularists of the French Revolution opposed checks and balances as a nuisance.

But now, arrogant activist judges have appointed themselves as unelected lawmakers who must be kowtowed to. Congress is too gutless to invoke the Constitutional right to decree issues out of court jurisdiction.
---Ktisophilos on 1/15/08


Abortion is actually murder but not genocide.I am sorry for the babies whose mothers don't want them but at least have them.They should put the poor little ones up for adoption as many people want children but can't have them.
---shirley on 1/15/08


So my question from 1/12 still stands, is it murder?
---MikeM on 1/15/08


Alan of Uk ::If abortion caught on in all earnestness. How long do you think the world would exist?would you not consider this to be mass Genocide.Provided you can comprehend the enormity of such a situation.
---Emcee on 1/15/08


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Emcee ... "every one Born there are 100 aborted or prevented 100 children allowed to die"
What is the calculation used for this?
What do you mean by "prevention"? Presumably it includes those not born because of abstinence.
---alan_of_UK on 1/15/08


I still don't see how you can call it genocide.
Genocide is deliberate atempts to destroy a race of people, on account of their race or ethnicity.
That's what Hitler tried, what happened in Ruanda, and what the West allowed to happen in former Yugoslavia, until at last we (chiefly the US and UK) had the courage to try to stop the racial killing.
Abortion is not like that. since the mothers are allowing their own babies (which must be of their own race) to be killed.
---alan_of_UK on 1/15/08


Even Roe has rejected abortion and has repented and is now pro-life all the way!
Why don't you?
yes Roe in Roe vs Wade...She is pro-life now. and Christian and promoting it! She repented and is with the Lord.
---lisa on 1/15/08


Strong axe::As you know this is not my suggestion it was the ruling & desire of the Author & giver of Life. The one & ONLY God who decreed this.I do not Play God.just produce facts.If what you state were true then my friend You are behind the times By over a thousand years.World wide statictics should prove that.why do you think America Canada Europe & Uk are importing supporting sponsoring Immigration.WHY?
---Emcee on 1/14/08


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Observer:

Just look at the first three commandments. The United States (and many other countries) guarantee freedom of worship. Except for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, their beliefs may conflict with the first three commandments. Any attempt to legislate those commandments into law would very much be a political issue. And how about the Sabbath? Even Christians can't agree among themselves about that one.
---StrongAxe on 1/14/08


Emcee:

The human population is still expanding. If, as you suggest, that for every live birth, 100 are aborted or prevented, are you advocating that all of those be born? That every family, rather than having 2.5 children, should have 250?

(As far as just aborted, the figure is MUCH lower - around 1 abortion for every 3-4 live births)
---StrongAxe on 1/14/08


1. If abortion is murder, what do we do with murderers?

2. If Gods laws (as expessed in the Bible) are above mans law(as expressed in the constitution) do we do away with theConstitution and enact a theocracy based on the Bible?

3. In the past 1700 years what has resulted when 'Gods law" was enforced as goverment policy?
---MikeM on 1/12/08


genocide..alike
yes when millions of babies are being discriminated against, and treated like garbage, and slaughtered..it is genocide...all those children...Lord have Mercy.
mass murder on a continuous basis..what else would you call it?
---lisa on 1/12/08


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Any issue in a society considered criminal or tort-worthy by a measurable number of its citizens or subjects is ipso facto a political issue.
---InimicusStultitiae on 1/11/08


Abortion is murder. Should all murder be legalized?

Truth is, it shouldn't be a political issue. Forget Christianity for a second. The legalization of abortion should never have even been CONSIDERED in a civilized nation.
---Greyrider on 1/11/08


.

Since are ANY of the 10 Commandments "political issues"?

Why should we PERMIT the atheistic crowd to usurp God's word, and prerogatives? God is the Author and Sustainer of life.

He has permitted mankind to take a life after a murder (Genesis 9:6) we extended it judicially, but that does not come close to being the equivalent of killing a human being in the womb.
---Observer on 1/11/08


Ryan, surely as a libertarian you would say that your choice to swing your fist ends short of my nose. How much more must a woman's choice end at destroying another life. Ron Paul is at least a consistent pro-life libertarian.
---Ktisophilos on 1/11/08


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As a nation under God- Abortion does become a political issue. Abortion is murder and Thou shalt not kill. For Christians to overlook a candidates position on abortion in favor of a party vote is condoning murder.
---rraea8898 on 1/10/08


Alan of Uk ::The enormity of Abortion and contraception is equivalent to the extinction of a Race,nay generations,consider the numbers involved by so many people .Statics prove for every one Born there are 100 aborted or prevented this I place at a low figure.why I say this is because of the availibility of life depriving pills devices procedures which Thwart the will of God. It is the voices of the unborn crying out for Justice & the right to make an appearance to this world.
---Emcee on 1/10/08


#2 StrongAxe, my closest party affiliation would be Libertarian. I believe that people should make their own choices and government cannot legislate morality. If a woman wants to kill her baby that is her choice, but it should be called what it is. If a person wants to destroy their lives with drugs or alcohol that is their choice, but after their lives are ruined they should not be the burden of the society.
---Ryan_Z on 1/10/08


#3 StrongAxe, I do believe we have a society that sugar coates things like baby murder to make it sound o.k. Or someithing like drug and alcohol addiction that leads to destroyed lives and families is down played to "substance abuse". Call a spade a spade.
---Ryan_Z on 1/10/08


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StrongAxe, I believe you have misunderstood me. I am not calling "pro-choice" people "baby-killers". I am saying that if you agree that a woman has the right to murder her unborn child then we need to call it what it is, murder, not abortion. I can abort a program on my computer or a course of action in my life. Taking the life of an unborn child is murder and should be called what it is. one is either anti-baby murder or pro-baby murder, plain and simple.
---Ryan_Z on 1/10/08


Lisa ... I don't like abortion, & think it is murder.
But you over-egg your argument when you say it is genocide. Have you ever considered the definition of genocide ... "the termination of a race"?
---alan_of_UK on 1/10/08


Mima,
Other moral issues are legislated so why would abortion be an exception? I do agree with you that making it legal does not make it right because it goes against God's law which is above all other laws.
---janet on 1/10/08


Strongaxe: Our leaders have always used taxes to fund their personal, political party affiliated & special interest groups agendas. True, it's always been that way. But I don't believe it's "all right" friend. :)

I firmly believe all Christians should take a very proactive role in the political process & hopefully elect leaders who'll have a propensity to do what is Godly-right, in all issues, with our tax dollars.
---Leon on 1/10/08


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Abortion is a political issue as much as a religious and moral issue.We should consider the candidate's thoughts on the subject before giving our votes.
---donald on 1/10/08


My comment was that not all life issues are equal. I personally oppose the death penalty and do feel a sense of outrage that noncombatants are killed and often targeted in war and do not condone that. My point is that abortion is the deliberate taking of an innocent life and nothing has taken more human life than abortion.
---janet on 1/10/08


Leon:

Even though you may not want your tax dollars to go to causes that you consider immoral, that has always been the case (and it's all right).

Jesus said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's (but unto God what is God's)" - he encouraged paying of taxes. He did not say we should protest them because Caesar was doing ungodly things (like invading innocent countries, funding pagan temples, and persecuting believers) - he paid the tax anyway.
---StrongAxe on 1/9/08


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