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Catholic Pope A False Prophet

In speaking of the end times that is called the tribulation, what position do you believe the RCC pope will occupy. Anti-christ or false prophet?

Moderator - Possibly False Prophet.

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Who can tell who is a false prophet? And when do popes prophesy?
---InimicusStultitiae on 6/9/08

Firstly, James was the head of the Church not Peter.Also, the RCC forbids marriage for the priesthood in direct contradiction to the Bible.This has led to all sorts of evil behavior in the RCC,which never seems to be properly addressed-false prophet AND ANTI-Christ both at the same time.
---terry on 3/18/08

Darlene1 ::By your concept we should not study the bible as then it creates Bias as you where do we go to get the Truth those who believe in His Truth speak TRUTH not truth.
---Emcee on 3/14/08

The 45 you recorded this on is outdated maybe you should try a micro chip or a DVD disk, more in keeping with the times so that you can see how wrong you are.
---Emcee on 3/14/08

Thank you Ramon for your explanations. It would take me so much time to look things up and I already have so much to study already. I was surprise that eight writers inclulding RC Sproul, Charles Spurgeon Bill walsh and others wrote the very same thing. I will not try to figure that out. I believe that you could bring light to the blog on Jesus's nature. What I mean coming from the early fathers. I am very low on that area. Not of Jesus but of why those councils said what they said.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/08

With all due respect for a person to have their beliefs and for those RC who do. I think it is not even logical to use RC writers to prove what the RCC teaches. It makes no sense because they were prejudiced by what the RCC had taught and they had no outside evidence to prove what they wrote. It is like letting a person on trial judge their case and decide their sentence. It just isn't valid.
---Darlene_1 on 3/13/08

I've been telling people for over 30 yrs.
the Pope will be the False Prophet that gives Glory to the AntiChrist and makes man worship him.
The persecution that's coming by the Romans will be/IS legendary...
Add Hitler, Nero, Titus & the rest of the men who have tried to wipe us out, And your getting close to what's coming upon Man...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 3/13/08

#2 Apostolic Succession means that every Bishop succeed Apostles [Bishop of Rome can trace his lineage to St. Peter]. This means that the Bishop receive the Authority of the Apostles, and He carries the Keys. He has the power to "bind and to loose".

In reading the Fathers, there is no doubt that they believe the Bishops had lineage backed to the Apostles, which means they carry the authority of the Apostles even though they are not Apostles.
---Ramon on 3/5/08

#3 Protestant Historian Philip Schaff writes, "The first example of the exercise of a sort of papal authority is found towards the close of the first century in the letter of the Roman bishop Clement...It can hardly be denied that the document reveals the sense of a certain superiority over all ordinary congregation..." (History of the Christian Church,1980,2:157-158)

St. Jerome mention the authority of Rome, which is the rock (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396])
---Ramon on 3/5/08

"Why was nothing said to us [Pope Julius and the Roman Church] concerning the Church of the Alexandrians in particular? Are you ignorant that the custom has been for word to be written first to us [Rome], and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]" (Athanasius, Defense Against the Arians 2,35)

Athanasius believed Rome has authority [rock]. The other Fathers writings are too long. Today's Roman Church has develop and is somewhat different from the Early Roman Church.
---Ramon on 3/5/08

Mark V. Sorry for the long wait! There is support that the same Fathers which I mention believe in Apostolic Succession, meaning that the Bishops, especially the Bishop of Rome, can trace their lineage back to the Apostles.

To some degree, this is true. Clement, Ignatius and Irenaeus were the first who mention Apostolic Succession (Epistle to Corinthians,42,44, To the Trallians,7, Against Heresies,4:33:8 receptivity).
---Ramon on 3/5/08

Ramon, "First thanks for putting the time for answers on the early fathers and your apology" Ok. So all but one agreed that Peter was the Rock. I didn't ask the question correctly. Here is the question that comes from the authors that I posted say about Matthew 16:18. That the early fathers none applied "Thou art Peter" to anyone but Peter. That not one of those fathers called the bishop of Rome a Rock or applies to him specifically the promise of the keys".
---Mark_V. on 2/29/08

#2. Ramon: The reason I am asking is because I now have eight authors that give the same names for the same Fathers. I have never taken a study into each one. I know this takes time to learn my time is very short these days. Yet it is important when answering. And since you have the information in front of you, maybe you could help. Just take your time if you can. No hurry.
---Mark_V. on 2/29/08

Rules are made by God for our own defence protection against evil(Satan)We also know man in his weak moments of enticement & worldly desire Break those rules .God has made it possible to retrieve our innocence by Forgiveness.Yet man even in high places fall.They will be answerable to God.Do you blame God for His rules or the men who broke his law.?This is what you do when bringing up past History as examples of condemnation.
---Emcee on 2/28/08

This issue can be very confusing for anyone unfamiliar with Messianic Prophesy. The OT teaches that when the Messiah comes, He will restore the Davidic Kingdom of Israel. The King is the head of the Kingdom, to be sure. But He will recreate the office of Prime Minister, and he (Peter and his successors) will carry the authority of the King, while still being subject to the King, as we all are.
---Greyrider on 2/28/08

There was a time when there was a true Pope and two false Popes who were Pagans seeking the office to bring down the RCC. But the gates of hell did NOT prevail.

There was a Pope who fathered children out of wedlock.

The RCC has had legitimate scandals, but much has been exaggerated or completely fabricated. And despite the scandals, the RCC today teaches the same teachings as the first century.
---Greyrider on 2/28/08

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" I don't believe lying to lie, should be the cause of the day"
So it is not a lie to continue to mispresent what another blogger has said?
---alan_of_UK on 2/28/08

#3 We can say with full assurance that the Early Church Fathers, while still holding the view on the primacy of Peter, still believe that Christ is the Head of the Church (The Bride of Christ) (I have read no Father who believed Christ was not the Head of the Church). The Bishop [of Rome] is the "representative" ("visible") of Christ in there view, but still hold authority.
---Ramon on 2/27/08

Mark V. I want to apologize for my calling you a "liar". I just do not like when the Fathers is being misrepresented, regardless if they were right or wrong.

*can you tell me how many didn't agree with Matthew 16:18. In that Peter was not the rock in which the church was build?*

The only Church Father (?) that I can think of will be probably be Theodore of Mopsuestia (c. 350-428). He was Bishop of Mopseustia, but was later condemn as a precursor of Nestorius.
---Ramon on 2/27/08

#2 What is left of His writings consists on commentaries on various books of the Bible(etc) (sometimes fragments). Fragment 92 (A fragment of His work on Matthew) can be found in "Matthaus-Kommentare ous der griechischen" Edited by Joseph Reuss. Berlin: Akedemie-Verlag, 1957.

Besides Him, I do not know of any Church Father who rejected the interpretation of Matthew 16:18 as referring to Peter (or less generally "The Primacy of Peter"). The Early Church was unanimous on this.
---Ramon on 2/27/08

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It is not a myth that there were three pope rivals at one time, that there is a Black Pope, that many popes were murdered, that some were married with children, and that one (Borgia) had a child whose character Machiavelli based 'The Prince' on.
---frances on 2/27/08

Read the book Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid which debunks many myths concerning the Papacy.
---janet on 2/27/08

Ramon, since you have studied the early church fathers, and know their actions from reading their biography's, can you tell me how many didn't agree with Matthew 16:18. In that Peter was not the rock in which the church was build? You must have a count or who in perticular didn't agree. And please give me an epistle as you did the one's that you put down.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/08

#2. Ramon: I too, think one should be honest. I don't believe lying to lie, should be the cause of the day. Putting down what others wrote does not make it a lie. It is putting down what they wrote. If they lied, then they are the liar's. Just as you have put down what you did. It is not a lie because you put them down, but it could be a lie what they said. You judged me by what the early father's said, but you didn't judge me by the word of God.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/08

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#3. Ramon: When Greyrider or anyone says something that they have read from the Catholic church and I believe it is a lie, I don't call them liar's like some people here do, I call what they teaching is a lie. People speak on what they know from reading, but just because they say it does not make them liar's.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/08

#4. Ramon: Let me say that I am an honest servant. That works hard reading Scripture. I have over 500 books from many different authors and six different bibles. It it a joy to me to understand Scripture, not a joy to speak against the RCC. I have done it because of one purpose, it brings no joy to me to speak on the cases of Mary of the saints. My purpose is for the Word of God, Scripture. I don't ever remember calling anyone a liar, satan, or a demon, I have called Eloy insane, because I just had to.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/08

alan of Uk. I agree with you 100%. I think that while we both disagree with some of the Roman Catholic Church doctrines, we also believe we need to be honest. Many here on CN has lied and said many things about the RCC that the Church denounce ever teaching (i.e., Pope is God, Mary is a god or that she is equal with God, etc). Many Catholic doctrines such as Mary title as "Mother of God" is greatly misunderstood by many Protestants
---Ramon on 2/26/08

The Pope pops up, again, for attention.

WORRY is anti-Christ, and a false prophet of what will happen, could happpen, might have happened...worry is a pathological lier, and abuses women a lot more than they ever would take from some guy, often enough. Not to mention, we guys can be wimps against worry. And yet we keep trusting and obeying worry...while pointing the finger at the Pope.
---Bill_bila5659 on 2/26/08

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#4. Remember in Scripture fornication frequently "symbolizes Idolatry or religious Apostasy" Check (Jer. 3:6-9, Ezek. 16:30, Hos. 4:15, 5:3, 6:10, 9:1). And here we see in Rome, the Great Harlot, who fornicates with the kings and the inhabitants of the earth. Wow, this blew me away. The members drunk with the wine of fornication, (Idolatry). A true Apostasy. Plus the Harlot influence will extends beyond the world's rulers to the rest of mankind, and it has.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

#5. Could this possibly be real? The imagery does not describe actual wine and sexual sin, but pictures the world's people being swept up into the intoxication and sin of a false system of religion. The women in v. 17 is the same in v. 1. Now isn't that incredible? You have to know the Code. Rome, false gospel of works, religious, Idolatry, and makes clear who that church is. In hurting Ramon's feelings I stumbled into the Code.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

Cindy, I don't believe you know about the Code. Babylon is the Code for Rome. Idolatry, different gospel, one of works, Rome. I didn't believe it was until I learned about the code.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

#2 All my citations can be verified by creditable sources. Its funny because a while back you accuse me of purposely listing many Scriptures at a time (to confuse people) that disproves OSAS, which I never gave a explanation to. But you did the same thing with the Fathers.

*You... judge me*

I have study the Fathers for many years, and you admit that you have not, and I have read many books that disagree with your belief concerning the Fathers. I judge you based upon what the Fathers taught.
---Ramon on 2/26/08

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From RCC site, concerning: "The Primacy of Peter" 1 Peter 5:13, quote: Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituded the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was "a code name for Rome" during these days of persectuion. See, for example Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 18:2, 10:21,
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

First John 4:3 tells us how to identify the spirit of antichrist, "but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." The current pope, Benedict XVI, acknowledges Jesus as being from God and Jesus as coming in the flesh (see 1 John 4:2).His view of the Person of Jesus Christ is biblical. Therefore, its hard to believe that Pope Benedict XVI is the Antichrist.
---Court7646 on 2/26/08

#2. Cont: which shows that "Babylon" meant Rome" I believe the RCC forgot Rev. 17:1-5, maybe they just forgot or didn't read the rest of the bible. At first I was perplexed by hearing so many say that the RCC was mentioned in Revelations. I could not believe this because I didn't understand the Code. "The code for Babylon was Rome" What a light came to my eyes when I read that. Here was I wrong about Peter, and not truely convince about Revelations.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

While we believe it is possible for a pope to be the Antichrist, the Bible does not give specific enough information to be dogmatic. A future pope very well may be the Antichrist, or perhaps the Antichrists false prophet (Revelation 13:11-17). If so, this future pope will be clearly identified by a denial of Jesus as coming in the flesh.
---Court7646 on 2/26/08

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Ramon ... that is precisely the point I was tring top make.
If I believe the moon is made of blue cheese, and I say so in all the books I publish, and in all the speeches I give, it would I think be pretty clear to you that I beleive the moon is made of blue cheese.
But there are those here that would call me a liar for saying I beleive the moon is made of blue cheese, and that really I beleived the moon is a giant panther who jumped too far into the sky.
---alan_of_UK on 2/26/08

Ramon ... and so it is with so many accusations about RC belief. Attackers say that the RC beleive such and such a false doctrine, when there is no evidence of this, and in fact all that the RC says that taht doctrine is false.
Thats what happened with the claim that the RCC denies that Jesus is God.
Now I am not RC, and will argue against what I think are their mistaken beleifs and practices, but I will not agree that we should make false accusations against them.
---alan_of_UK on 2/26/08

Mark. V. You may not want to accept it but this is what the Fathers wrote. This is backed up by Catholic and Protestant Apologetics and Scholars. I have given my resources. All you and others have to do is look them up. J.N.D Kelly is a renowed Protestant Patristic Scholar who doesn't agree with you in your claims of the fathers. You have read many books. I am happy for you. At least it shows you really want to find the truth, but the available data today outweights your resources.
---Ramon on 2/26/08

Anything not planted by my Father will be uprooted. Jesus:- my words will never pass away. 1Peter-1:24-25, Matt-24:35. In the Gambia some of our fathers, our mothers are good in Latin songs in traversing them. they don't know their meaning. why? darkness. denying the Bible to translated into languages. that's catholuic
---francis_mendy on 2/26/08

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alan of Uk. It is about people lieing what "others" believe. You should know this. How many times have you read in CN of somebody saying that the Catholic Church believe "X" when it reality they don't? I have seen people twisting and lieing about what the Fathers believe. Someone once told me the Fathers didn't believe Jesus was God. This is a lie! JW Watchtower lied in saying J.K.D Kelly said in his book Early Christian Doctrines that the Trinity was not taught by the Early Church.
---Ramon on 2/26/08

I believe the antichrist will come up out of the regions with oil, have great influence over all of the world's economy based on oil.
I don't really see that happening from the seat of the papal.
---Cindy on 2/26/08

All I can say is WOW!

After reading these responses my only responce is that I hope that in all your wisdom you get the necessary oil in your lamps having it ready for the time to come before it's too late. You're wasting your time at each other's throats leaning not upon the word of God but upon your own understanding and strong opinions.

Save yourselves, try love, not anger and pride, when you apply it to the scripture it will provide a whole different meaning to you.!
---Joe on 2/26/08

Ramon, I answered you but do not see it posted but here I go, I am sorry, "you hated to be lied to, or that I and others misrepresent as you say, the early church fathers" I really am. I didn't want to make you angry, and upset. I should have consulted you before I put anything down so that you could check it to see if it's truth or not. I should have known better then to put the names of about twenty guys without a citation on each one.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

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#2. Ramon: I just don't know what is wrong with me, I am getting forgetful as I get old. I completely made a mistake in not thinking that you would be there with your books and citations that someone wrote. I don't want to ever make you angry again. You don't have to apologize for not been a Catholic to me, you can be whatever you desire. I am going to put somethings down Ramon and I am asking you to forgive me. I have picked a side. And I side with Christ.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

Ramon, I am not impress with your answers to me about some renown Protestant who speaks on behalf of the RCC fathers. Who has the name of Kelly, who is truthful just like the RCC is truthful. That does not speak truth to me at all Ramon. I have books from RC Sproul, William Webster, Martin Luther Tony Coffey, Bernard Ramm that speak different. You seat there and judge me, because you read some book. And try to impress me with articles the RCC wrote. As if that will bring the truth out.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

#2. Ramon: I don't have to read the biography of each, know how they lived. All I have to know is what they thought concerning Matthew 16:18. The subject talked about in Matthew 16 is Christ, not Peter. You want to defend their points of view, go for it. I have picked a side already. I will give the honor to Christ, for He is the cornerstone in which the building of the Church begins, it is not Peter.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/08

They are unclean. They have made stumble the people of God with their idols. Ezekiel-8 They have place the idols around the walls. The crosses, shrines, sculptures ( Psalm-135 they have ears, nor do they hear etc Psalm-115 ). The Bible is older than them. Jesus said, my words shall never pass away.
---francis_mendy on 2/26/08

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* ...[you] go to such trouble looking things up just to answer against me, must have a different purpose then what you stated.*

My purpose was to explain the Fathers position. Not once have I said they were right or that I am Catholic. I hate when people past lies and misrepresent the Fathers of the Church.

If you going to refute Catholic teachings, fine, but don't misrepresent what the Fathers said just to prove your point. This is all I have said. It is you who have jump to conclusions.
---Ramon on 2/25/08

Protestant Scholars who recognized Peter's being the chief of the Apostles (they based their view on Is. 22:22) or that he was placed with some authority: F.F Bruce (The Hard Sayings of Jesus), C.F Keil and F. Delitzch (Concerning the "Key to the house of David" in Isaiah 22), Roland de vaux (Ancient Israel, trans. by John Mchugh, pp 129ff), W.F Albright (The Anchor Bible:Matthew), among others.

While It can be said Peter is the chief of the Apostles, ultimating, Jesus is the true leader.
---Ramon on 2/25/08

The papacy of Rome is a church government led by men is not of God ...Gods government will be here on earth during the millenium when Christ rules - not men ...the "fathers" or Rome are nothing more then mens beliefs ... The Father in Heaven - God is ruler of mankind NOT the fathers in Rome's interesting how men will believe the fathers in Rome (and their writings no less) and dismiss the God of Creation and His Plain Truth aka The Holy Bible
---Rhonda on 2/25/08

* You quote a RCC website material*

How you know? Let just say I got my information from RCC website, what difference does it make? All you got to do its research the "proclaim" citation of the Father and see if they match. And it does.

Holding in my hand right now is "The Dictionary of the Early Christian beliefs" by Protestant David W. Bercot. On pages 516-517, both the quotes of Tertullian and Cyprian (as well as Origin) supporting the Primacy of Peter are present.
---Ramon on 2/25/08

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I wish all of you well. Have a nice life. So long. -I.S.
---InimicusStultitiae on 2/25/08

Isn't it strange (and sad) that some will accuse others of lying, even about what they believe?
If I say I beleive the moon is made of blue cheese, some would deny that I beleive this, and so accuse me of lying about what I beleive.
There is a serious point I am trying to make there, (although I have to admit that I do not beleive the moon is made of blue cheese ... everyone knows it is really green)
---alan_of_UK on 2/25/08

Mark #5 Although written by a Catholic, "Upon this Rock" (Stephan Ray) is a futher proof what the Fathers wrote. I have checked His citations, and I have found out that it checked out. Ray often quotes Protestant scholars, who agree with some Catholic teachings, and others who disagree with them.

Do we have to believe everything the Fathers wrote? No. But we cannot lie about what they wrote either. Someone told me before that the Fathers didn't believe Jesus was God. Can you believe this?
---Ramon on 2/25/08

Mark#4 So this is not about Catholics vs Protestants. This is about what the Fathers taught. I have the Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs, put together by a Protestant. And The Ancient Christian Commentary on Scriptures (Matthew), put together by Protestants have Church Fathers who believe in the papacy of Rome, as I shown.

I am not saying they are right, but the Church Fathers believed in the primacy of Rome. William Webster sometimes misrepresent what the Fathers taught (thats another story)
---Ramon on 2/25/08

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MarkV::Please be truthful & Honest Ramon is talking from The BIBLE not RCC webb site Matt16:17-19 is GODS word I question DO YOU DENY THIS?The word of GOD superceeds all books and that is the BIBLE
---Emcee on 2/25/08

Mark V.#3 I have study the Fathers/Doctors of the Church from both Catholic and Protestant sources. You make it sound that Catholic always misrepresent Church History (only someone with a anticatholic mindset will believe this). Renowned Protestant Historian J.N.K Kelly in his book "Early Christian doctrines" admit that the Fathers believe in Bapismal regeneration, infant bapism, the Eucharist being the body and blood of Christ, etc. This is a renowed Protestant Historian.
---Ramon on 2/25/08

Mark V.#2. You can lie all you want. I have study the Fathers for many years and can tell you what they believed. Many people, like you, get their information from sources, that I have found out, misrepresent what the Fathers taught. You never gave a citation from a Father that prove they did not believe in the papacy. You only gave there names. I have seen this many times. It's clear that you have not read the Fathers. Give me one Father, with citation, that did not believe in the papacy.
---Ramon on 2/25/08

Mark V. Like I said, I am not Catholic, but I have study there writings and they all believe in the papacy of Rome. I'll never said I held to this belief. I have wrote their writings, go look them up. This is what the Fathers wrote. Read what I wrote on John Crysostom . The Fathers never contradicted themselves. You lie that the Fathers did not believe in the papacy of Rome, Which is why you did not give any citation, but just name them. Clearly, like Jack said, you have not read them.
---Ramon on 2/25/08

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Jack, Just because Ramon quoted what the RCC teaches, does not mean that what they say is truth because they said it. It only means they have said it so that others will read them. It has no way of giving evidence it is truth because they said it. As I have said before, much of what has been written by them is not truth. You have a choice, take their position as faith, and follow their cause, or follow Christ. You don't have to tell us you are not a Catholic, we heard that before.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/08

**ow you might think this is wonderful and you glory in that because you believe it, but it is a dishonor you are doing to Christ. **

All I said was that I had read these writers, and you clearly had not.

If you had read them, you'd be forced to say the same thing Ramon had said.
---Jack on 2/25/08

Ramon, I find your answer to my answers hard to understand. You quote from a RCC website material they put out in support of Peter been the rock that the church was build on. Saying, the Church is build upon the foundation of Peter and not of all the apostles. For some reason or another speaking against what I have written, as not been true and wanting to quote everything each one of the church fathers believed in, accusing me in some way for whatever purpose you have in mind.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/08

#2. Ramon: Now, this is after you quoted in "Many women Pastors today" "(We are) members of God's household, build on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone" Eph. 2:19,20. What you forgot was that you didn't mention Peter the rock you say is chief rock. You also said, "We must sumit to Christ and His apostles because they (apostles)
---Mark_V. on 2/25/08

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#3. Ramon: (Plural)" did not write their own ideas! The Apostle Paul told Timothy to follow his own Traditions and his writings" Clearly you never mentioned Peter one time here. Since he is, you say, the rock on which the Church is build on. Now why would you answer me and go to such trouble looking things up just to answer against me, must have a different purpose then what you stated. But I will answer you where I got my information
---Mark_V. on 2/25/08

#4. Ramon: It was not from an Catholic website. It would be dumb for them to contradict themselves on their own website and state that many church fathers were against what they teach. My sources come from many books and many authors, "The Road to the Reformation" "Hermeneutics" "The Patristic Exegesis of the rock of Matthew" "Answers and questions Catholic are asking" "Vicars of Christ" just a few of my sources outside the Catholic websites.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/08

Isn't quoteing a pope or some other 'church' leader to prove that they are church akin to saying that "I made a true statement and because I said it, it is true?"
---dan on 2/25/08

Here is another quote of Saint Augustine:

[To Generosus, ca. 400]"For if the order of sucession of bishops is to be considered, how much more surely, truly and safely do we number them to Peter, to whom, as representing the whole Church, the Lord said: "Upon this rock I will build my Church....." [Mt 16:18] (Letters, No. 53).

Lieing and misrepresented what the Fathers taught does not help. Clearly, you have not read the Fathers writings.
---Ramon on 2/24/08

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"...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church."
Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15(A.D. 337),in SPP,58

"And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, 'against which the gates of hell shall not prevail' "
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,6:25 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:273
---Ramon on 2/24/08

In dealing with the Fathers of the Church, I have found that many times people take their writings out of context or they do not compare there writings with their other writings to have a clearer understanding.

For example, someone might say John Chrysostom saids the Church was founded on Peter's confession, which its true, but He also have no problem saying the Church was built on Peter [see Homily 3 on Matthew]. Chrysostom is simply emphasizing Peter's faith without eliminating Peter himself.
---Ramon on 2/24/08

#4 The other Church Fathers I cannot cover (I am limited in the space), but they all believed in the primacy of Rome (built upon Peter, the first leader of God's Church on Earth).

"I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter......As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!"Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2 (A.D. 375).
---Ramon on 2/24/08

For further references, if one is going to say that a Church Father/Doctor of the Church did not believe something, it is best to post the quote of that specific Father proving that they did not believe such and such, instead of just posting there names without any references at all.

I have seen this done many times by people in other sites. And at the end, they have been proven liars. If you haven't study the Fathers, you have no right naming them as "proof".
---Ramon on 2/24/08

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Mark V. * Early church fathers against Mathew 16*

I have read everyone of those Fathers writings you posted, and they all agree with primacy of Rome. It is too much quotes to post here.

"Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail" Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (AD 393).

You know I am not Catholic, just sitting the record straight.
---Ramon on 2/24/08

#2 "....remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Tertullian, Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

"The Lord says to Peter: 'I say to you, he says, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church'. . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church...."Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, 1st edition [A.D. 251])
---Ramon on 2/24/08

#3 "[Christ] made answer: You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (Ambrose, The Faith 4:5, AD 379)

"...Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven...." (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 17:27).
---Ramon on 2/24/08

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