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Works Needed For Salvation

I have just returned from a mission trip and the main objection to accepting salvation by grace is that people wanted other conditions. I believe conditions equal works. Your thoughts?

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Paul, the context of those words were said was for believers to judge someone by their fruits of false prophets in verse 15, "by their fruits you will know them" is true. We as humans judge others by their fruits, but even then we are not sure because we cannot see their hearts. While there is many who show good fruits in life, they might not be saved if they have rejected Jesus Christ.

"The reason that passage is there in the first place is because false prophets will come and we will know they are false by the fruits they show concerning the Word of God. If they are contradicting the Word we should be able to know by their false teachings. Good fruit here is the right understanding of Scripture."
---Mark_V. on 8/18/08


The flesh always wants to do something to earn its salvation. That is why the word says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags, in comparison to Gods righteousness. We cannot come to God on our own terms. We are rejected if we do. His way is made plain, in the bible, Jesus is the door to salvation. He is the only way.
---gayla on 8/17/08


I believe if you love God you will do his will, to know he made his word flesh and bone Christ The Lord

The Lord wants you to love each other.
Tell everyone your sins are forgiven you.
Christ the lord, has taken them away forever, he loves you.
Even if you just believe in is name, even if you dont, he loves you.
Look for that love, the love of forgiveness.
Remember he didnt come for the righteous or the self-righteous.
You have to forgive all done to you or by you.
You have to forgive yourself.
Dont let people put a mountain in your way.
knock God out of you, dont let them. He Loves You.

You are forgiven
Christ The Lord!
---Frank on 8/15/08


Matthew 7:20
Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Who is really with Christ and who is not.

God bless you all today and always. In Jesus Christ our Lord and King. Amen.
---Paul on 7/24/08


Paul, you are correct. Saving faith comes to each of us with power. The power to perservere. It comes from God, and everyone who is truely saved, will work, out of the love they have for Christ.

They will do things not because they have to, they do them because they want to, and know it's what is in their hearts to do, and that is the new life that God planted in our hearts. His life, which is perfect. In my opinion, anyone who say's they have faith, and say they don't have to do anything for the love of Christ, cannot possibly have the life of Christ in his heart.
---Mark_V. on 7/23/08




Ok...so we have faith and Love the Lord Jesus right? So we should just sit there like a couch potato and do nothing for the Lord.
Or should we put our faith into action?
I say action.

God will say. What did you do for my Son in the name of my Son when on earth?
You will say what?

I am sure many of you help the needy , give to the poor, visit the lonely etc...
Charities etc...

Or do you say "I have Faith in Jesus" but I don't need to act on that faith. I can just sit here in my own world and ignore everything else around me."
---Paul on 7/23/08


Nicole, please don't commit lies, they are sinful. "You quote me as saying I never sin." Which is rediculous. I'm a forgiven sinner. Always in life, will I be one. Don't begin to do what Emcee does with his answers. The reason I answered you the way I did was because of what you stated. "only sinners wanted" but I said we are "forgiven sinners" You just don't understand "forgiven sinners" and none forgiven sinners. I have never stated I don't sin, in fact I am a forgiven sinner in need of Christ everyday. Your not like Emcee and neither is Ruben. Bring your doctrines out and this way people can answer you. Do it for the right reason, for the Truth. Show that your heart is for Christ. For his glory.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/08


Nicole, Jesus' words you quoted were to the Pharisees which would equate to the priests of today. He was saying 'You think you are so good, so you have no part in God's Kingdom.' God requires that we see our sinful condition first, and then REPENT of it. God is not mocked.
---frances008 on 7/10/08

Yes, God will not be mocked. It was MarkV, who claims not to be able to sin again because he is born-again.

The RCC does not say this. We know you can sin after you are Baptized. That why we have confession.

Why are you speaking me and not to MarkV?

I know I am forgiven and and am capable of sinning again. That's why Jesus said to forgive your brother 77x7.
He forgive Peter didn't He?
---Nicole on 7/10/08


Nicole, Jesus' words you quoted were to the Pharisees which would equate to the priests of today. He was saying 'You think you are so good, so you have no part in God's Kingdom.' God requires that we see our sinful condition first, and then REPENT of it. I experienced the Catholic Church as being full of people who either thought they could get to Heaven via the piety route, or those who thought that Holy Communion cured them of all their guilt and all they needed to do was get to church every Sunday for the magic cure. Confession is very under used, and in any case, God forgives sins, so it was a bad idea to begin with. Nowadays a quick prayer of repentance at the altar and 'voila' you can be saved again every week. God is not mocked.
---frances008 on 7/10/08


the reason Jesus is not in my church is because He is seated at the right hand of God. The reason the presence of God is at my church is because of the born again believers who are "in Christ" "forgiven sinners," by the blood of Christ.---Mark_V.

Okay, so you are saying that Jesus isn't in your Church, but the presence of God is in your Church.
And no one in your Church sins anymore because they were forgiven and are born again. They never sin again.

Do you think I believe what you are trying to make me swallow? NO sinners. Get real.

Mark you are a forgiven sinner and you WILL SIN AGAIN, AGAIN, AND AGAIN UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD!

You may fool others with your fast talking, but you don't fool me!
---Nicole on 7/10/08




Nicole, the reason Jesus is not in my church is because He is seated at the right hand of God. If He was at my church Scripture would contradict. The reason the presence of God is at my church is because of the born again believers who are "in Christ" "forgiven sinners," by the blood of Christ. If they were not there, it would only be a building with sinners, like the one you describe yours is. We don't have a sign that say's "sinners only." If we did then it would not be a house of God, it would be a house of the enemy since their father is the enemy. You can put a sign, " sinners only" at your church. The very reason why it has fallen from the truth of the gospel.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/08


Kathr4453, forget Hebrews10. Stick to Jesus Who died for You.

Matthew 28:16-20, "All power in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always, until the end of the age.

John 20:23 "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

He is only speaking to the Disciples. He saw Mary Magdala and didn't breathe on her.

You and I are born with Original sin. The RCC uses baptism them to get rid of this sin.

Are you mad because the RCC is doing what Jesus told Her to do?
---Nicole on 7/10/08


****Matthew 9:12-13 "Those who are well do not need a Physician, but the sick do. Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' I did not come to call the righteous but SINNERS."***

ONLY JESUS can forgive sinners....not the RCC. The RCC saves babies who don't even know they are sinners.


Does the RCC ever tell these poor children that their water Baptism didn't save them?

Only those who have been crucified with Christ are buried WITH Him in Baptism unto death .That's the ONLY Baptism God recognizes...and Holy Water can't do that!!!! The Pope just doesn't have that kind of power. nor do the Priests... Even OT priests couldn't forgive sin...Please Read Hebrews 10.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/08


JESUS is over HIS CHURCH. Jesus Christ is HEAD of the Church, not the RCC. Any church filled with perverted sins as the RCC. As we see, NOTHING corruptible can enter in..
The Body of Christ is Perfect, Holy, Righteous. The RCC is not.--kathr4453

Just like I told MarkV, if you are telling me that your Church as no sin. Then I know Jesus isn't in your Church.
You sound like a Pharisee.

Matthew 9:12-13 "Those who are well do not need a Physician, but the sick do. Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' I did not come to call the righteous but SINNERS."

So, if the RCC isn't righteous as you put it.
Then I quess Jesus is with us the RCC.

RCC - only Sinners wanted!
---Nicole on 7/8/08


Ones in divisions invent required conditions which no other group has, so then they can say they are the only ones with such essential doctrine and practice and therefore you have to join them.

But since cultic groups are NOT in touch with God, they don't have reliable communication with God to guide who they ordain as pastors. We can see how various groups without God guiding them have been able to ordain predators and con artists.

Plus, their high-up leaders have failed to appoint ones qualified to do this, since the top leaders also are not being guided by God > "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/8/08


Sorry folks, JESUS is over HIS CHURCH. Jesus Christ is HEAD of the Church, not the RCC.

Any church filled with perverted sins as the RCC. As we see, NOTHING corruptible can enter in...Jesus said MY KINGDOM is not of this world.

The Body of Christ is Perfect, Holy, Righteous. The RCC is not.

The RCC came into power at the fall of the Roman Empire, picking up where the Empire left off......also political placing Emperors around the Holy Roman Empire.

Many divisions with the East and West, divisions over the divinity and humanity of Jesus, and divisions over Mary being the MOTHER of God, not the Mother of Jesus.

Indulgences, etc.....
---kathr4453 on 7/8/08


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"I understand this is what the RCC stands"
Kathrn::You are not the first one with that understanding,neither will you be the last. But Your words "I understand" is not Congruent with what God says, in HIS Word Matt16:17-19 which I am afraid overides all,who oppose Him.Therefore your doubt,understanding,protest or what ever word you choose to use is with HIM.Forgive me for appearing CURT but the Truth must overide All.
---Emcee on 7/7/08


Emcee, I understand this is what the RCC stands on..stating Peter was the first Pope,..why is JAMES considered the head in Jerusalem?-kathr4453

Are you saying that Jesus can't appoint who He wishes to be over His Church? What are you saying Jesus was telling Peter in Matt16:13-19? Is Jesus just talking just to hear Himself talk?

James being over Jerusalem, if this it true, what is the problem about this with Peter.
The Pope's title is also Bishop of Rome. There are multiple Bishop everywhere. James was a Bishop as well.
If you are speaking about James in Jerusalem as being head. The Scriptures are clear on the matter. Peter is speaking during the Meeting. James is speaking AFTER the meeting or council. All Bishops can speak.
---Nicole on 7/7/08


Emcee, I understand this is what the RCC stands on.....stating Peter was the first Pope, therefore apointing Pope's by vote or LOT after him, as giving him the Keys to the Kingdom.

Those Keys have nothing to do with appointed by man offices....but binding and loosing.

Many believe the church today can bind and loose satan through this teaching as well.

Satan won't be bound until the 1000 years.

I think what you are promoting is presumptuousness.

Did Peter appoint Paul? Ot did GOD appoint Paul?

If Peter was the all in all, why is JAMES considered the head in Jerusalem...not ROME ?

AND Rome KILLED Peter and Paul!!!

AND why didn't God just tell Peter to anoint Paul?

---kathr4453 on 7/7/08


Katrn::You impinge on the word "Practice"as Peters word, but you forget who gave that AUTHORITY to Him.Was it Not the Lord in Matt16:17-19or do you deny this.His church was for all Gentile and or Jew even to this day.Many doubt Peter as being the chosen one BUT HE WAS Matt16,17
---Emcee on 7/7/08


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****The RCC started with 12***

Yes ROME started with 12. The RCC is the Roman Empire in drag...carrying over it's gods and goddesses.

The Church was NEVER ROMAN to begin with. ROME took that upon itself.

Why ROME? Because they controlled the world? Why on earth would God put the church in the hands of ROME to begin with.

As you see many of Peter and Paul's letters, addressed to the earthly Church's everywhere.

ALSO read the first 3 chapters on Revelation.....the Church of ROME is not mentioned once.....

However Mystery Babylon the imposter apostate harlot church is mentioned!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/7/08


Emcee

AND that ***practice*** came from the Peter and the drawing of Lots, as does the RCC.

However at the time of Matthias, it was B/4 Pentecost, and the Giving of GIFTS Jesus HIMSELF gives the Church. Peter was quoting from OT LAW, out of Psalms.

Look how long it took Peter to get his act together....

1. Had a problem with Gentiles getting Saved....Gods having to send him a dream

2. Paul still rebuking Peter in Galatia for being a hypocrite around Gentiles.....still practicing OT.

And of coarse since you believe Peter to be your first POPE..who wasn't even in Rome or called to the Gentiles to begin with????, you've carried on an OT tradition, including the practice of OT Priests and more.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/08


...And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore EVERY tree which bringeth NOT forth GOOD FRIUT is hewn down, and cast into THE FRIE.
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 7/3/08 ]

Good one.
---Nicole on 7/5/08


I'm not sure I am totally understanding what you are saying. Do you mean that the people didn't just accept that through grace they were saved and they wanted more to do? There is a life time of things to do. There are changes to their lives and way of thinking to be made repentance on a daily basis because we all sin. There is the word to be studying, not one person knows the whole entire bible. Every time a person reads it they gain more wisdom and understanding of the word. There is a life time of conditions.
---Crystal on 7/5/08


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Nicole ... Sorry i was wrong about Stephen's status.

But it does not alter my statement that Paul was not the replacement for Judas.

As others habve pointed out, it was Matthias
---alan_of_UK on 7/4/08


There were many more apostles ... Stephen ( & he was before Paul) and then Luke, Timothy and eventually many others unnamed.
---alan_of_UK on 7/3/08

Are you speaking about the Stephen that was stone to death in Acts chapter 6 and 7?

Because he was not an Apostle, he was a Deacon.

Act 6:1-4,..So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, "it is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table, Brothers select from among you 7 reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdome... Whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

They are not connecting Stephen as one of the Apostle or even a Disciple.
---Nicole on 7/3/08


Kathrn::FYI Every Bishop in the RCC is an apostle,He has his own Diocese ,like a anarea,How many apostles do we have today,The vatican can give you That answer.The RCC started with 12 But not for long, the church grew at an alarming rate,anso did apostles.The 12 Apostles spoken of in Revelations IMHO is relevant to the 12 Tribes of the jews and appointing of Judges, in the last days.No concern of ours now.Again IMHO.Hope it helps.
---Emcee on 7/3/08


Thats NOT what John T Baptist says in
Matt, 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore FRUITS(works)meet(Necessary) for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore EVERY tree which bringeth NOT forth GOOD FRIUT is hewn down, and cast into THE FRIE.
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 7/3/08


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All & Jerry::A slight correction in your theory.True out of love for Mankind Jesus in obedience to His father offered Himself as a sacrafice for SIN.1 To open the gates of Heaven which was shut.2,Show man by His example the way to the Father.Hence His admonition"BE perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect"The faith we place in Jesus is that we trust Him and His direction.But the way each one operates this trust is determined By each Individual.SO it is HIS WAY not YOUR interpretation of His way.That is why He Gives us Matt16:17-19 with the Holy Spirit (GOD)to guide us.Please listen like children of the Father.The truth is told for itself.
---Emcee on 7/3/08


Emcee said***Matthias was replacement forJudas while Paul was recruited By God For His ministering to the Gentiles,as the church was growing.But that is History and Not relevent Now.***

Emcee, that depends. Paul was an Apostle correct? How many Apostles were there? 13? You see in Revelation, it's only 12 Apostles.

If one also believes we have Apostles today in the Church.....this comes by Spiritual Gifting, not by lots either.

Now we do see man appointing man in the Church today, giving TESTS to decide what your Spiritual Gift is, or just impressed by how many BOOKS they've sold professing themselves to be the Greatest Apostle/Prophet of our time to qualify.....SO with that...is that how Matthius was appointed, or POPE's?
---kathr4453 on 7/3/08


Grace means,-the freely given, or unmerited favor. GOD sent His son Jesus to pay our sin, so we need to accept Jesus that He is the son of God and pay our sin. If we believed on that. We have now Faith in Jesus that we saved us. then if we believe that we are saved, Good works will follow in our lives because we know Jesus saved us. Good works is the result of our faith in Jesus. formula JESUS + NOTHING = SALVATION = Resulting to Do good works...
---terry on 7/3/08


I'm out of line?
Peter and the other 10 cast their lots and Matthias was chosen and he was among the 11 at pentecost, Jesus trusted peter to do HIS WILL.

Read Acts 1, the whole chapter and you might figure out those WORDS aren't mine,
There PETERS!
Are YOUR words above Peters WORDS?

You too, prove my point, My Father will NEVER allow people such as you prosper in his words(Spiritually Bankrupt)!

This CHAPTER is VERY Clear on who they picked after they prayed and cast their lots!

You Err, and as usual at my Fathers words expense.
Good Luck!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 7/3/08


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Kathrn::Matthias was replacement forJudas while Paul was recruited By God For His ministering to the Gentiles,as the church was growing.But that is History and Not relevent Now.
---Emcee on 7/3/08


Surely 12 related to the number of disciples, and matthias was chosen to take over Judas' responsibilities.

There were many more apostles ... Stephen ( & he was before Paul) and then Luke, Timothy and eventually many others unnamed.
---alan_of_UK on 7/3/08


Am I the only person here who believes that Grace comes to all mankind BEFORE faith???
---duane on 7/1/08


No, I'm with you.
You are CORRECT.

No one has Faith first and then Grace or at the same time of Grace.

God comes to us first. NO One can come to God first. NO matter what anyone says. They just think they found God first.

God has He eye on us since the moment He made us. Graces are coming to us all the time. Until we accept the Grace, then we accept Faith.

It is impossible to have Faith before or at the same time of Grace. Because Faith is a Grace as well. But the Grace of God is first before the the Grace of Faith.
---Nicole on 7/2/08


Grace, Baptism, Im born again, Im saved, hes not and Salvation
If you know them it is not of faith.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
---Frank on 7/2/08


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DDM, God is not confined to choosing out of the two men that men picked for God to choose from. God can raise up rocks to praise him, don't you think he is capable of choosing his own important apostles? He would not do it by lots. I stand unmoved by your insults. You read what you want to into the Bible, and I will be moved by the Holy Spirit to seek answers myself that explain why Paul rose above all the other apostles and took the leadership off Peter, spreading the Word far and wide in times of great hardship. The only explanation is that he was commissioned by God.
---frances008 on 7/2/08


DDM, You are out of line. Frances is correct to say Paul was GOD's replacement. There were two I understand who's names were put in a hat to replace Judas.

However Jesus was with the Apostles 50 days before ascending to Heaven, and that issue could have been settled then....However Jesus did not Pick HIS 12 replacement at that time.

Do you know what an Apostle is......SOMEONE HAND PICKED by the FATHER HIMSELF who are given to Christ. Read John 17.

If Jesus wanted Mattheus He would have chosen/hand picked him before He Ascended to Heaven!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/2/08


To other Duane, I am sure you are not the only one who believes that grace has to come first before faith. I and many more believe that grace come first, just as salvation comes first before baptism. We do not have faith in Christ before we are born again, we have faith in Christ because we are born again. All unbelievers don't have faith. If they did they would not be lost, and called unbelievers. Some even suggest that unbelievers are righteous without Christ. Some even believe that everyone lost has a measure of the Holy Spirit. Some do twist scripture to say that works saves, and there is many of those around. They don't want to believe in the depravity of man. They want to believe there is something good in them, enough to get them saved.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/08


Shiloe,
We are saved by Grace, through faith NOT of(flesh) works. Faith is active, its living faith.
Any good works you do will be because of faith, faith is the CAUSE of my good works.
(Faith made me do it)
If we needed our works, then salvation would be by our works. Thats why all we need is faith, then we will HAVE true good works. Christ can work through you, we now can be led by the Spirit.
---duane on 7/2/08


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frances_
ACTS 1
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANGRESSIONS fell, that he might go to his OWN place.

26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon MATTHIAS, and HE was numbered with THE ELEVEN apostles.

I suggest reading the WHOLE chapter and QUIT twisting the word of my FATHER!
This is EXACTLY why my Father will NEVER allow YOU to Teach the things of GOD!

"YOU" is to who ever it FITS, YOU decide!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 6/30/08
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 7/2/08


Am I the only person here who believes that Grace comes to all mankind BEFORE faith???
---duane on 7/1/08


DDM, would God ever choose somebody by drawing lots? Answer: No. He would want to choose not by chance, or by sheer numbers (as some said earlier in the Old Testament - where God set the men a test to weed out the ready from the not ready). God chose Paul, the apostles had (wrongly) tried to elect by lot Matthias. Later events proved who the true apostle was. Promotion comes only from God, anything else is a fake promotion.
---frances008 on 7/1/08


Kathrn-DDM-others::This is all water under the bridge.History cannot be changed even if it does not suit the original question.Contesting the word of God is not a healthy Practice and affords Satan much amusement,Jesus sais Love one another Dissention is NOT LPVE>
---Emcee on 7/1/08


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A=B=C...so grace = faith = works?

I think the fault is in the premise. Grace is not equal to faith, but we obtain Grace through faith.

Faith is not equal to works, but a true faith will produce works.

So we are saved by Grace. We obtain Grace because of our Faith. Our Faith is evidenced by our works.

For faith without works is dead.

Eph 2:8-9, James 2:24,26

Grace, Faith, Works. All important. But it's essential that we remember that salvation is "not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
---Todd1 on 7/1/08


Kathrn-DDM-others::This is all water under the bridge.History cannot be changed even if it does not suit the original question.Contesting the word of God is not a healthy Practice and affords Satan much amusement,Jesus sais Love one another Dissention is NOT LOVE.
---Emcee on 7/1/08


Show me where GOD or Jesus changed Sauls Name!

Saul changed his own name when he was sent by Jesus unto the Gentiles,(to escape the Persecution of the Jews and because of their God given deafen ears, SO Salvation could come unto You).

Any time the Lord spoke of Paul/Saul,
He called him Saul.

Paul the 12th apostle?
So, What your telling me then, is that WHEN Peter & the other 10 D's cast their lots and Chose Matthias to take the Place of Judas as part of the 12, THAT WAS FOR NOTHING?

You err!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 7/1/08


Tell me this, can a man be saved without works? If you can be condemned by faith, then why can you not be saved. In math, if A=B and B=C then A=C... So, if we can not be saved by grace without faith and faith can not be without works then how can we be saved by grace without works?
---Shiloh on 7/1/08


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Correction, I mean MATTHIAS not Thaddius.

How many times is Matthias's name even mentioned?

GOD chose Saul and renamed him Paul....

God chose Abram and renamed him Abraham. Renamed Sara Sarah.....renamed Jacob to Israel.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/08


Havn't you read, when you speak the words of God, Speak them with authority as if you were an oracle of GOD!!!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 7/1/08


Emcee, if you were to understand the importance of 12 .

Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The 12th here is not Judas it PAUL
---kathr4453 on 7/1/08


Mod...Post this one!!!


Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Paul not Thaddius was the 12th Apostle who laid the Foundation of the CHURCH.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/08


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I am always with great wonder, astonish. how people feel they can speak for God. Not just you and it always the one who know the law in the bible.
Do you see how right you feel? I myself will not turn left nor right, think how bad this man is feeling right now. May the lord forgive him.
For God can do this

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets,
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
---Frank on 6/30/08


Are you KIDDING ME, Paul was the 12th?
ACTS 1
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANGRESSIONS fell, that he might go to his OWN place.

26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon MATTHIAS, and HE was numbered with THE ELEVEN apostles.

I suggest reading the WHOLE chapter and QUIT twisting the word of my FATHER!
This is EXACTLY why my Father will NEVER allow YOU to Teach the things of GOD!

"YOU" is to who ever it FITS, YOU decide!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 6/30/08


Kathrn::My reply in acts answers the question posed,and is biblically True.Acts 1:25-26 This does not negate the eminence of Paul as an APOSTLE and His choice by God But he was NOT the replacement For Judas.
---Emcee on 6/30/08


I knew about that passage in Acts, and I also studied from other sources and discovered exactly what Kathr said. The disciples chose someone to replace Judas, but God was the one who chose Paul. Men sometimes make mistakes, it happens all through the Bible. I happen to be studying Acts at the moment. So it is you, who say misinformation and also try to discredit me, to your own embarrassment.
---frances008 on 6/30/08


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*****francis008, WHAT? Did your really say that Paul took Judas' place as a disciple/apostle? *****

This is absolutely true. Paul was GOD'S choice, not man's.

1 Corinthians 15:7-12

7After that, he was seen of James, then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain, but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/08


Just as Judas followed a WRONG Gospel, so do many today, who are considered those who betray the Cross. Jesus said salvation was to Eat my flesh and drink my blood....they said...that's tooooooo hard. Those are the ones Jesus referred top as those who will betray him. Were they ever saved....NO!!!!!!

They only wanted earthly blessings, and to fill their bellies with Bread...but not the REAL BREAD!!!!

We enter an NEW AND LIVING WAY, through the veil, that is to say HIS FLESH...I an Crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/08


Judas was created and predestined for the purpose of betraying Christ (Jn.17:12) much like Pharoah of Egypt (Rm.9:17) was raised up for God's purpose of pushing the Hebrews out of Egypt.

Let's face it, someone has to do his job in order for the scriptures to be fulfilled.
---Lee1538 on 6/30/08


Kathrn::READ JN19:35The truth Must be told:JN.6 is the bread of Heaven,and the recital of His Miracles in feeding and walking on the water.God does not enter politics which is a game of Cut-throat.
---Emcee on 6/30/08


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francis008, WHAT? Did your really say that Paul took Judas' place as a disciple/apostle? Have you ever read Acts 1:12-26? I hope you just forgot and made a mistake for many of the things you write are very interesting. However, you did not answer the question(s) I wrote for you yet and it would be interesting for me to read your answers. Thanks.
---james on 6/30/08


Judas, betrayed Jesus because Judas believed Jesus KING was coming to fulfill the Kingdom of Heaven promises, that Jesus was coming to overthrow Gentile world power, and at that time was Rome. Please see John 6..it's all there. Read very carefully. And so did those who he called the ones who betrayed Him who walked away.

John the Baptist announced the Kingdom....however he said...I must decrease and HE must Increase...immediately stating...Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

The Kingdom took a back seat.....and will be fulfilled AT the Return of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/08


It takes saving faith in Christ that makes a person saved. By Christ works on the Cross. By His Resurrection and by the indwelling life of the Holy Spirit of Christ, believers posses eternal life (Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 3:1-4). Juda's was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn't. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever heard of. For thirty pieces of gold Judas sold himself, not Christ. There are some who wish to imagine Judas was saved, to support their view that a believer can lose salvation, but there is no evidence Juda's was ever saved. "One of you is a devil," said Jesus, and when he died, it says he went to his what? "His own place"
---Mark_V. on 6/30/08


Juda's didn't go to hell because he betrayed Jesus. He was already going to hell since all who don't believe by faith in Jesus Christ go to hell. The one sin that took him in was not trusting in Christ. He was the son of perdition. His destiney was from the foundation of the world to betray Christ. And he completed what was ordain by God for Christ to die on the Cross for the redemption of our sins.
---Mark_V. on 6/30/08


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Salvation is a free gift.
Not by belief only, because even the demons in hell believe that Jesus is the son of God.
obedience to the word, good works and faith is the way. Jesus said himself, He is the only way to the father. There is no other we should pray to, worship or take our problems to. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light.
---Mark on 6/29/08


Judas had to betray Jesus.-frances008

This suggest that Judas is not totally in control of his sin. Jesus never picks someone to go to HELL FOR EXTERITY just to save everyone else.

He gave the parable of the Man leaving the 99 sheeps for the one. He is telling us that everyone is VERY IMPORTANT.

He picked Judas to show us that everyone has a CHANCE. But, Judas didn't go to hell because he betraded Jesus. Peter betrayed Him as well. Judas commited suicide, sin against HOPE. Saying not even God can save him.
But, Peter did asks for forgiveness. This showed the Mercy of God, saying that He will still use you for his Kingdom. Redemption.

Judas had to do to asks Jesus for forgiveness and trusting he would be forgiven.
---Nicole on 6/29/08


Duane D. First, we can assume all we want but what we assume is not always correct. Second, You said "if the conduct of any person shows no good works (fruit) we can assume they are not saved' That is correct. Works is the evidence of our salvation not the cause. And, I was speaking of those who think they are saved, not any person. Works are not necessary to bear good fruit. Good fruit "is" good works, the same. No contradiction. You said, "Abraham would not have been a friend of God if he hadn't believed" That is the reason he did good works, because he believed in God and trusted in Him. Belief in God first, results in good works. A good tree always bears good fruit.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/08


Paul was the replacement for Judas
^ Man Wisdom

Then the TWELVE called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
---Frank on 6/29/08


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Branches do not work, they abide in the vine.(Faith) Branches bear fruit, the vine produces(works).The fruit is from the vine to those branches who abide IN the vine.
Who is the vine? Who is the branch?
What are the works that the branch must do?
Believe on HIM(THE VINE)... Its by grace through faith.
---duane on 6/29/08


Frances008::"Paul was the replacement for Judas"WRONG AGAIN Frances.You must study more about Jesus and His Doctrines,than your Replacement Innuendoes of Intrigue and supposition,dear Lady Read Acts1:25-26.Tut! Tut! Frances You are being watched and not by the ILLUMINATI,but something more sinister and powerful,with forked tongue and pointed tail.
---Emcee on 6/29/08


Frances: "Paul was the replacement for Judas" The Bible says:

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I don't think you can earn your way into heaven by your good works, but your bad works can keep you out.
---jerry6593 on 6/29/08


Nicole, Stop making excuses, everything that anyone say's is answered by an excuse. worship, praise, and miracles are ask of saints. Idol worship are practice all through the church. I was a Catholic Nicole. The idols made of wood and stone, the rosaries, and the excuses they don't worship this idols in their website so that the Catholics can answer to others. The excuses that saints answer prayers by giving Rev. 5:8. And works to salvation found in their teachings, when faith in Christ alone was not adequate enough for salvation yet they sacrifice Christ by works every Sunday to show how save they are, where they eat His human flesh because He turns human every Sunday, everywhere in the world at one time. And the list goes on.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/08


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(Paul was the replacement for Judas)
---frances008 it appears you've made a mistake here. For the Bible says it was
Matthias "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:24-25-26

---Mima on 6/29/08


Nicole, if you found out the the RCC was saying secretly, that those who were not RCC ought to be killed, (against the Ten Commandments), would that be enough to convince you that the RCC was a false system. Now let's take a step back and say that the RCC said that they heretics do not have to be put to death but that they will never go to Heaven. (?) Does God live in a religion? We read that God does not live in temples but in people. The Holy Spirit lives in people. But the RCC rejects this idea saying that Salvation is through the One True Church (meaning RCC). Can't you see any dangers in such an idea? Before long it becomes My Way or else...!
---frances008 on 6/28/08


If we are chosen from the foundation of the earth, then nothing will steal us from Our Father's hand. If we are rebellious as one of the disciples was, then we will be wiped out of the Book of Life and another name (Paul was the replacement for Judas) will be put in our place. Jesus knows who the rebellious people are because he can see into their hearts. He does not choose rebellious people accept in Judas case and in other cases, as a means to an end. Judas had to betray Jesus. Evil people are useful for God's plans. They get destroyed - like Sun Tsu's 'dead spies'. Those are the ones who are easily bought. They are not like Paul who suffered and died for Jesus Christ and not for his own glory.
---frances008 on 6/28/08


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