Are You A Sinner
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I think Rhondda has put her finger on the point
I have said I occasuional go into a pub, and probably Rebecca has never been to one and imagines they are like the American bar.
Rebecca ... I suggest there is a fundamental difference between the two.
You go to a bar because you want to drink alcohol, whereas you go to a pub to be with t your friends. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/28/08 |
Rebecca, the logic you are using is absurd ...you must live in a shell ...do you NEVER go to restaurants ...or do you only patronize restaurants WITHOUT BARS ...if you go to a restaurant that has a bar it is not different than going to a pub ...you show a serious lack of understanding of other cultures ...not everyone lives in the US |
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---Rhonda on 4/27/08 |
Rebecca ...# 1 .. have you ever considered the intended meaning of the word separated?
It does not mean to shun, or ignore, or avoid.
It refers to way we behave, and show that we are different, and have that inner joy.
But not necessarily different from those we are talking to, because they too may be saved. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
Rebecca ...# 2 .. Now, if I go into the sort of pub that I might usually go to, I will find probably there other people having a meal and a quiet drink, and maybe families. There may be some discussing their familiy holiday, or asking others what plants are best to put in the garden.
And none of them will be drinking to excess.
I expect talk of Jesus comes up just as often there as it does when you are standing in a supermarket queue. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
Rebecca ...# 3 ... And if it does, it will be a much better situatio, because we will be sitting quietly together, and able to continue the conversation, not rushing to pay the cashier and belt off home to put the frozen food in the freezer |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
# 2 .. You continue Rebecca to accuse me of being "tempted to go into bars to drink right along with the unsaved"
You do insult me! ... I am not tempted by the drink, but I by a comfortable place to sit with my freinds or family
As I have said, I go into a pub (not a bar) to meet my friends and perhaps have a meal, or perhaps liquid, because there is no where else to quesnch our thirst, or eat, after a long day's walk. . |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
#3 ... or I might go with my daughter & her boyfriend in the evening to have a meal because they have been working, and too tired to cook a meal (and not enough tiem) and the pub meal (including that sinful one small drink) is a third of the price of a restaurant, (if there is one around, which often there is not) and the food is better. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
Rebecca ... #4 You might find that the sort of bars yuo used to tempted to you excess and perhaps to the behavioural problems that arose therefrom.
But don't tar other people with yuo own brush.
Or perhaps I have been unjust to suggest that.
If i have been, I suggest it is your imagination that is making pubs into dens of iniquity. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
You should not as much as have a drink and drive what's that saying, if it's not recommended to drink and drive how will you witness and drink and then encourage the drunkard he's had one too many?
Smoking has been banned in public places How will you smoke and witness to one whom smokes
20 a day?
both y'all say in moderation my guess is you shouldn't drink or Smoke as one called by Christ trying to correct each other. |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
Alan of UK: Your tempted to go into bars to drink right along with the unsaved. How many times does God come up in conversations in a bar? Not many times, I suspect. You are totally missing the point. There it goes again, swoosh right over your head. How are you separating yourself with the unsaved when your in a bar? That is not the same as going to the movies or school function. If you don't know the truth by now, then God help you. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/24/08 |
SHUN The very appearance of sin what I mean by sin a tradition not followed by fellow ''Christians'' I'm not looking for a debate on this because old habits die hard. It has not been known to be done/followed by any one I know to be Pentecostal to either drink/smoke, but it is something that Anglican Church...do. We watched the vicar knock back the communal wine in such a fashion we all unsaved at the time laughed. He was known to drink/ Chain smoke like a trooper ! |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
1Cor 6:4
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Cr 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Cor 6:6
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
1Cr 6:7
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
Drinking, Smoking,division,backbiting,rivelings,ect are all Sin name one you personally don't do? we are all sinners carnally that's the Adamic nature for you. When you grow up(out of sin) Recognise It/Stop It you'll Spiritually be desern what is sin and clean up someone else's mess effectively without the fighting, just as someone rightly quoted Clean up your own back yard then you'll see clearly to be able to clean up someone else's! |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
2#
If God say's do something unless you do it you will not move on spiritually until you do. Are we forgetting that we're not actually Gold yet, this is the cleansing and to get to Gold we will be put through Fire(firey situations) not to fight each other but LISTEN take the wrong doing OH yes that's what the bible said and basically take that situation to God, learn from it and DON'T do it. How can the pot cuss the kettle calling it black? when the pot's BLACK. |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
Were all saved? and need to work it out between us as (saved) if there's a dispute, but both ya'll should seriously look at what your both justifying and ask if Christ demonstrated any of the things ur both professing to be Christlike, if it is not then maybe you should consider not Doing It and leave others alone! you cannot effectively wear a gold chain and chastise someone else for wear 10. Both ya'll wrong. |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
Luk 6:41
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luk 6:42
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. |
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---Carla5754 on 4/24/08 |
Rebecca ... "I never said for you to have an occasional drink is SINFUL, I said when you go into a BAR and DRINK along with the unsaved, it is sinful"
Ah, so if you do something which is not a sin, but you do it with the unsaved, it is sinful.
So when yuo go to the mall, or to the theatre, or gathering to watch tennis, or enjoy the beach or park or discuss the needs of your local school, it is sinful if there are unsaved people there.
That Rebecca is the result of your logic. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
Rebecca "But I do not give into that kind of temptation as you do"
And you claim you are not saying you are better than me?
And what temptation am I giving into? You agree drinking beer is not a sin.
So why should it be a sin to do it among company?
Your very term "swigging beer" is judgmental and cunjures up a picture of me propping up a bar pouring beer down my throat |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/24/08 |
We are told to separate ourselves from the world. We are told not to conform to the world. We are told to be a good example. Rebecca is speaking for the gospel of Jesus. Anyone criticizing her is speaking against this gospel. Yes, we are SUPPOSED to make right judgement. First to take the log out of our own eye in order that we can see straight IN ORDER to TAKE OUT the speck in our brother or sister's eye. |
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---frances008 on 4/24/08 |
#4. Alan: I once knew a man. Before he came to the Lord he sang in bars. he became born again. A few days later God called him to sing, so he started singing in churches. A month later God called him to preach. So he started preaching. To this day he is still a preacher, but he also likes to sing in those old bars. He will sing a song about God, then next song a sexy song. And do that all night . So Alan: Was this man in the wrong by doing this? And are you in the wrong as well? |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/23/08 |
As a Christian we can judge righteously on what their doing. If a person goes into a bar to drink, according to the bible I would be in the right to judge him righteously by telling him that that doesn't look good and to keep away from all appearance of evil. Okay, I've done my part, but this man still refuses to take heed on what God says. Now since the truth is out he still tries to find ways to justify what he does is right. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/23/08 |
Alan, Rebecca is indeed very judgemental, and I believe wrong. Many people apparently can't differentiate between having a drink, and being drunk. By the same rule if I have a meal I must be a glutton.
I am amazed at her hypocricy condemnimg someone who has a drink which is not condemned by Scripture, in fact recommended in moderation, then introduces a cocktail of toxic chemicals into her God given wonder of a body! |
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---Warwick on 4/23/08 |
#3. Alan of UK: But when you go into a bar and have a beer in one hand and preaching the word of God with the other hand, Telling those people in the bars that they must abide by the bible and get saved and be born again, while in the next breath, swigging on your beer. Yes Alan that is a hypocrite. You cannot preach or teach about the love of God to others in a bar while you are swigging up that beer. They won't take you seriously and neither will God. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/23/08 |
#1. Alan of UK: Yes I judged you with a righteous judgment. Yes I can do that, according to God. No I am not better than you, I have never claimed to be better than you. But I do not give into that kind of temptation as you do. I am tempted yes, but drinking or going into bars isn't a temptation for me, cause I don't desire to do such things. Again, I never said for you to have an occasional drink is SINFUL, I said when you go into a BAR and DRINK along with the unsaved, it is sinful. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/23/08 |
Rebecca ... # 1 .. Talking about confused hypocrites:
Why should I be a confused hypocrite if I drink a pint of weak beer in a pub, and talk about Jesus to someone?
I would be a hypocrite if whilst drinking that pint, I told them they must stop their drink.
I would not be a hypocrite if whilst drinking my one pint, I told them that by drinking 8 pints a day, they were destroying their liver, and risking addiction |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/23/08 |
Rebecca ... # 2 .. Talking about confused hypocrites:
I would be a hypocrite if whilst drinking to excess, I told others they must give up excessive drinking..
I would be a hypocrite if I was an alcohol addict, and told you as a tobacco addict that you had to give up.
The person who drinks an occasional pint, and is not at all addicted to anything, is not a hypocrite when he warns you that your smoking addiction is destroying your lungs and heart, and may cause blindness. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/23/08 |
So, Rebecca, in spite of your statement that you "don't believe I am better than anyone else", you now agree that you have judged me to be sinful in having an occasional drink in a bar.
So I am worse than you, or you better than me, because you do not indulge in this sinful act.
Now, you say elsewhere that your smoking is not a sin, because God has not yet convicted yuo that this is a sin.
How then can you claim that my orange juice or occasional beer are sinful? |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/23/08 |
Alan of UK: I did judge you in a righteously judgement, in which I am allowed to do. You say you go into bars to drink a pint of alcohol drink. I judge you righteously by saying do not let your good be spoken evil of. And by you going into bars where there are a lot of the unsaved are whom really don't respect you! Helping one pray for this problem with a pint of beer in the other hand. If anything Alan you'll be called a confused hypocrite. Never give a person a reason to call you names. And you are. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/23/08 |
a common false doctrine today is the blasphemous "sin-supporters", "misjudge saint as sinner", which falsely lies dissing that all people are sinners, even the born-again and sanctified saints of God. |
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---Eloy on 4/20/08 |
"Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. A good tree cannot bring forward bad fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forward good fruit. Wherefore by their fruits you all will know them". Isaiah 5:18+ Mat.7:18,20. |
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---Eloy on 4/20/08 |
Christ's Holy Spirit and satan's unholy spirit do not live in the same temple. "Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Know you all not, that to whom you all yield yourselves servants to obey, his slaves you all are to whom you all obey, whether of sin onto death, or of obedience onto righteousness? I John 4:4+ Romans 6:16. |
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---Eloy on 4/20/08 |
The saint is not the sinner. Not all are bad, there are the good and the bad. Jesus was proven sinless and a good-doer- Mt.4:23+ Jn.8:46,47. Pilate found him innocent after interrogation- Mt.27:24+ Jn.18:38+ 19:6. We his offspring are also good- Mt.7:17-21+ 9:10-13+ 25:21,23+ I Jn.3:7-10. |
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---Eloy on 4/20/08 |
Rebecca ... You say you do not say you are better than others?
On the other blog you certainly seem to be judging me, and saying I am worse than you. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/19/08 |
What is sin? According to the Bible, it is the transgression of the law (most likely, the Ten Commandments).
The question should not be "Are you a sinner?" But should rather be something like:
Are you a former sinner? or
Are you a recovering sinner?
No current, willful sinner can be a Christian. |
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---jerry6593 on 4/19/08 |
Rebecca ... I do not have to isolate myself from everyone who might not be saved in order to be a Christian, or demonstrate that I am.
Your idea of a bar is that it is a sinful place, and maybe that is your only experience.
In the UK, many bars are where drunks hang out, and I would not go there, but if you go into the public or lounge bar of an English country pub you will find it a quite different.
Maybe you should come here to find out. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/19/08 |
Alan of UK, No I don't believe I am better than anyone else. I know that I'm not. I have never said I was. Again you are missing my point. It isn't the fact that you DRINK A BEER every now and then. It is the fact that YOU GO INTO BARS, and you are not trying to separate yourself from the unsaved. You join in, and be part of "their" crowd. But let's not get into this again, cause neither one of us wants to repeat ourselves. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/18/08 |
A message from God.>>>God is holy. His eyes are too holy for them to be on unbelievers. God already knows your sins, so therefore, He does not keep His holy eyes on you, but on His very own righteous people. Made to be righteous people, my friend. |
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---catherine on 4/18/08 |
A Christian hears the Holy Spirit calling him or her out of his or her normal everyday life. The Holy Spirit, if heard by the Christian, will convict you when you are in sin, or in any spiritual danger. You will then act accordingly. I don't think going to bars draws people nearer to God, unless they go there to evangelize, and will then face intense persecution, and so nobody likes to do it. However, if Alan of Uk actually brings people to God, good luck to him. |
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---frances008 on 4/18/08 |
Rebecca ... "I don't claim to be better than anyone else"
Oh yes you do, at least you certainly say I am worse than you because I occasionally go and have a drink with friends in a bar. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/18/08 |
Alan of UK: No matter where a Christian goes, they are talked about by fellow Christians and sinners. The Christians are waiting for a mistake to happen so they can gossip. The sinners are just watching how we live our lives. I don't claim to be better than anyone else. But when others see me, they see Christ Jesus. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/18/08 |
If u dont believe in HIM, your a sinner.
Jesus came to do away with sin. If u dont believe that, your a sinner.
Jesus made a believer righteous. If you claim to be a sinner, you were NEVER made righteous. |
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---duane on 4/17/08 |
James 1:26 "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless." |
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---deb on 4/16/08 |
Rebecca ... I am sure people do see someone different, because of the shine in our eyes and face.
But they will still know that we are not perfect and do wrong things ... in other words we sin. You do not deny that.
Now if they see we sin, and yet we say we are not sinners ... how confusing will that be to them??
We will seem to them to be unjustifiably self righteous. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/16/08 |
And Rebecca ... seeing this this they may be put right off the idea of even listening to you, because they see you with this shine on your face, and yet think you are hypocritical, because as far as they can understand you are lying, when you say you are not a sinner, yet clearly do sin.
I suggest it is only those on the "inside" who are already saved, who understand your non-grammatical definition of sinne |
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---a on 4/16/08 |
A lot of the unsaved know if a person is a Christian or not just by watching them. Anyone can say they are a Christian, but only few act like one. When people look at me, they may see this flesh but they do see the inner man, which is Christ Jesus and that is what separates me from the unsaved/sinners. Can they tell a difference in you? What do they see when they look at you? Unlike people, Christ looks beyond my faults and he sees my needs. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/16/08 |
Rebecca ... The unsaved will look at you and say ... "she says is not a sinner ... how come then that she sins?"
I can't imagine any unsaved person asking whether I was a Sinner or a Christian.
They would not understand the difference yo see in the two words.
If they knew the Bible they would know that only Jesus is wirthout sin ... so they would call yuo a liar if you said you were not a sinner.#, becasue they would think you were saying yuo did not sin. |
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---a on 4/16/08 |
If I was still a Sinner AS you put it,
I would be NO better Off than an UNsaved Person! |
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---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 4/16/08 |
So if a person asked what are you a Sinner or a Christian, would you tell them that you are both? And give a reason like this, I am a sinner because I sin, but I am a Christian because Christ lives in my heart. And they are looking at you and saying "Huh"? Now does that really make any sense? No, you will be confusion the person your speaking to. So when someone asks you what you are, go by what God says you are instead of the proper English definition. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/16/08 |
'nonChristian', and no I am not one: I am the opposite, I am a well-doer. |
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---Eloy on 4/16/08 |
All humans are sinners, from the moment we are born into this world. And yes I am a sinner, but by God's grace we are saved because he sent his only son Jesus Christ, Christ died on the cross for all sin, our sin debt has been paid, but when we sin we must repent or we end up hanging Christ to the cross all over again. Every time we sin as Christ followers we must repent its just something we want to do as believers. |
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---Susan on 4/15/08 |
The Bible says whatsoever isn't of faith is sin. So I would ask are you walking in faith every day,every way? As Christians we are suspose to walk in constant faith,and that doesn't mean the faith others say you should have,but the faith which keeps us close to the Lord God Almighty,and pulls our thoughts to the Word of God in every situation. Thinking about the Bible keeps us from being drawn away by temptation. Every time we exercise faith we also grow in strength to resist the Devil and make him flee. |
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---Darlene_1 on 4/14/08 |
Rebecca ... yuo use a theological/spiritual definition of "sinner"
But as we have discussed previously, grammatically (and this is how most people use the word) we are sinners, because we sin.
(Someone who walks is a walker ... and so on)
The disagreement is not about whether someone is or is not saved, but one of word useage. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/14/08 |
People better do more than "hope" they're saved. I don't hope I am saved. Because I know that I am saved. How can a person claim to be a Christian while yet still calling themselves a sinner? A person can not be both. The bible describes sinners as wicked people. The sinners will be separated from the Christians. This flesh may sin, but I am not a sinner anymore. I am a born again Child of God, saved by his grace. |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/14/08 |
I have never heard of a Saint who claims not to sin. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/14/08 |
I AM A SAINT. Unbelievers, you are sinners. |
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---catherine on 4/14/08 |
If one thinks they cannot sin, they are deceived. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (I Jn 1:8) |
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---ShaunT on 4/13/08 |
I am a sinner, and my hope is that I am saved by the grace of God, through the precious blood of Christ Jesus.
The beloved Apostle Paul stated:
1ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Please note: Paul stated "of whom I am chief." He did not say was, but says am. My spiritual man may be clean, but I still reside in a sinful body. (Read Romans 7:15-24). |
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---trey on 4/12/08 |
Yes, we are all sinners. No one is perfect...they only person who is perfect if Jesus christ, our Lord. Even I am a sinner, you are a sinner everyone on this earth is a sinner. Sin came into the world when adam and eve ate from the apple tree from wich God told them not to. Hope this helped.
Blessings,
Ellie7766 |
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---ellie7766 on 4/11/08 |
Rom 8:33,34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
No, I am not a sinner. I am a new creation -II Cor. 5:17. I can not sin - I John 3:9. I have been crucified with Christ - Ga. 2:20. |
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---Debbie_Jo on 4/11/08 |
#2 Christ condemned sin in my flesh - Rom. 8:3. I have been justified - Rom. 5:9. I have been sanctified - I Cor. 6:11. God reckons me dead to sin, there fore, I reckon with God - Rom. 6:11. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me because I walk not after the flesh but after the Spriit of God - Rom. 8:4. God is to busy reckoning me just to believe me to be a sinner, and Christ is to busy interceding for me to condemn me. |
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---Debbie_Jo on 4/11/08 |
#3 Thank God, He see my heart and He sees the blood of Christ applied to my heart which makes me holy and free from sin in the New Creation. |
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---Debbie_Jo on 4/11/08 |
A sinner is a person that has not ask forgiveness. We don't need a satan to tempt us, why give satan praise or credit for what we do? We recieved the knowledge of good & evil from Adam. We know how to be both & we CHOOSE to be what we are, satan has nothing to do with it other than our excuse for what we choose to do. How can you say you're sorry for what you don't take responsibility for doing?? |
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---Chip on 4/11/08 |
No>>I am not. I am a Saint, because Jesus saved me. Do I still sin? I am sorry to say I do. Do I continuously ask for forgiveness? You know that I do. Do I hate sin? you know that I do.>>> So does God. Because I still war against Satan, temptations, sins, every minute of everyday, only proves how much I need Jesus Christ and His Blood.>>>It is imperative that you be born-again in order for you to be a Saint. |
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---catherine on 4/11/08 |
"What's your definition of 'sinner'?"
A sinner is one who has willfully refused and missed, the mark of man's high calling of God in Christ. As such, one who does not share in prize of life through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus due to their willful rebellion and despiteful insult of the Spirit of grace. "are you one?" No. I acknowledge freely that I was a sinner, However I have been saved by grace. To say "I am a sinner, saved by grace" would be a misapplied oxymoron. |
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---josef on 4/11/08 |
I stand in complete agreement with John's post. The state of being righteous, or sinful, resides ultimately in the mindset one embraces and declares. One either speaks from ones "practicality" as mindful of the results of error and the disadvantages of an action or procedure contrary to the law, or from ones "position". I choose to speak from the position I have been given. I am the righteousness of God in Christ, seated spiritually with Him in the Heavenly place of His faith and rest. |
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---josef on 4/11/08 |
---john's answer to this question just makes my heart jumped for joy. What a wonderful clear statement he gives of a Christian's condition while still on the earth. |
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---Mima on 4/11/08 |
In Luke 15:7 it says the angels rejoice over one sinner that repents. That is saying when a sinner comes to Christ and repents, they are no longer a sinner. For as by one man's disobedience(Adam) many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one(Christ) shall many be made righteous. God separates the sinners from the righteous, the goats from the sheep. Those that claim to be a sinner still, are you calling yourself a goat a well? |
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---Rebecca_D on 4/10/08 |
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 |
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---Gerald on 4/10/08 |
Practically I'm a sinner, but positionally I'm abolutely perfect and sinless because of what Jesus has done. Practically, I'm on earth, but positionally I'm in heaven.
This debate is only because some of us are speaking of our position and the others are speaking about what we are doing in the flesh. |
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---john on 4/9/08 |
Hello Leon, because I don't enjoy being confrontational, I used the term 'seems'. Where do you stand?
Baker: One who bakes.
Teacher: One who teaches.
Sinner: One who sins.
I am so much more than a mother, a designer, a friend, a sister, or a sinner. I am a child of God, and that is the true essence of who I am. I ask Him to forgive me, and I know that He does. |
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---deb on 4/9/08 |
Jack....There you go again. Quoting scripture. How dare you? Some people on this blog might be "offended" that they are sinners. Thanks, brother, for the truth. |
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---Susie on 4/9/08 |
Deb: "There seems"? Is there or isn't there? Who are the debatees & are their views outside or within the realm of Biblical orthodoxy? A great many people speak untruths because they're ignorant (ignore & rant) of the truth. |
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---Leon on 4/9/08 |
There is nobody who posts to these blogs who is NOT a sinner.
If anyone reading this thinks s/he is without sin, s/he is self-deceived, and the Truth (Jesus) is not in him/her. |
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---Jack on 4/9/08 |
A sinner's actions are of fleshly, humanistic origins. And are always outside of God's will. Am I a Sinner? The answer is YES, and I found no freedom in my spirit even after salvation until the Lord showed me that I am totally forgiven as are all men who will accept this wonderful glorious fact. The sin debt has been paid!!! Glory hallelujah, the Lord Jesus Christ, who paid the debt we could not pay. |
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---Mima on 4/9/08 |
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