MIC,
I've given you the verse of His own words, you've read it, and still admit that you will interpret His word literally. If you won't believe the Lord himself, then you choose to continue to misunderstand his word. I feel sorry for you. |
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---Kenny on 8/25/08 |
over 1000 christian denominations,a country that has had a church {building} on every corner of every city,in its land for hundreds of years, yet a land that is filled with immorality,perversions of every sort,murdering of children in the womb,a land filled with sodomites who we now find may attain the same recognition as a man/woman couple which is ordained by Holy God...are there false teachers in the church building that call themselves christian? "you shall recognize them by thier fruit". when the gospel is taught there is conviction of sin & repentence. Not much of that coming from the churches anymore or there would be a spiritual awakening to sin in the country. |
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---yahshua_first on 8/25/08 |
They are, unfortunately. But if you ever have a question as to the validity of what someone says, tell them to open their Bible and show you where it says that.... IN CONTEXT! |
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---Paul on 8/24/08 |
Kenny :I did not mean to upset you with your underatanding of Figurative & Literal.However You quoteJn16:25-31But in Verse29 the diciples say "you are speaking plainly not figurarively".Verse 25 is past tense: V29 is present tense, would you agree,"said' denotes past.The point at issue is, when imparting His doctrine it was not Figurative but literal so that ALL would understand.Like in Jn6: 33. On this authority Did he institute His Plan Of the Divine Eucharist JN6:51and 53,56-58.If you want to be RIGHT then believe in this.Its LITERAL plain and straightforward.This is my choice . |
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---MIC on 8/23/08 |
Lee said : Ruben - *Then he said to the disciples, Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.(Luke 10:16)
But you need to find out what was that 'message' He spoke of was.
No you do, you believe in bible alone
Any knowledgeable Bible student can tell you that Peter had a lapse of the faith when he refused to eat with Gentile believers (see Galatians 2:11)
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Again Paul was criticizing his conduct and not his teaching authorithy. |
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---Ruben on 8/22/08 |
In every book, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus speaks almost entirely in the figurative, and admits it with an explanation to His deciples in John 16:25. With a few exceptions, the rest of you read it literally which creates confusion. This literal confusion exposes another truth in scripture when Jesus says that few will understand.
---Kenny on 8/21/08
So if I was a JW then I can use your logic that in Jhn 1:1 it is figurative...nice |
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---Ruben on 8/22/08 |
You have got to be kidding. Faster than wildfires. God is choosey. Obviously, Satan is not. |
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---catherine on 8/22/08 |
Ruben - *Then he said to the disciples, Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.(Luke 10:16)
But you need to find out what was that 'message' He spoke of was.
Any knowledgeable Bible student can tell you that Peter had a lapse of the faith when he refused to eat with Gentile believers (see Galatians 2:11)
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Also if the Apostles were infallible, then why did they required conferences to determine the various issues such as the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) to determine what was required of Gentile converts? |
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---Lee1538 on 8/22/08 |
MIC,
My NIV Application Study Bible is printed and published by a company named Zondervan, who by the way is the same company that printed and published my King James Version, 1976. You may continue reading scripture with your literal straight forward understanding if you wish, and you will completely misunderstand everything as you continually do. I will repeat myself again to those like you who are hard of hearing. In scripture, Jesus speaks almost entirely in the fugurative, and tells his deciples this with an explanation In John 16:25-31. |
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---Kenny on 8/22/08 |
In every book, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus speaks almost entirely in the figurative, and admits it with an explanation to His deciples in John 16:25. With a few exceptions, the rest of you read it literally which creates confusion. This literal confusion exposes another truth in scripture when Jesus says that few will understand. |
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---Kenny on 8/21/08 |
Mic: Thank you, Blessings. Our walk is often tedious but not without God's joy. Your right in your statement, that we must work on our salvation. Salvation is a free gift. Maintaining it is our responsibility. Of course with the Lord's daily help. God Richly Bless you. |
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---Robert on 8/21/08 |
Robert :Those are wise words.To ignore is to show disdain or disregard.But Jesus says Love,so it is a hard choice at times but do get your point.Thanks.I guess every one must gain their own salvation. |
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---MIC on 8/21/08 |
Mic, if someone countermands me or just plain gets in my face in their disagreement with what may come forth from my person, I just ignore them. First, anyone in such a mindset wouldn't listen anyway. Secondly, its not worth wasting energy in a go nowhere discussion. I'll go about my business, and literally give it to God. I refuse to be baited and I don't get rocked by someone's opposition. I am secure in what the Lord has revealed to me. I respectfully speak what I believe is true and will stand corrected if checked by the Holy Spirit. I do not swallow anything hook, line and sinker upon first hearing. One exception, when God speaks to the heart. Different situation, and end of discussion then. |
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---Robert on 8/19/08 |
The most prominent member that would be considered would certainly be St. Augustine, but he did not even agree with the current RCC interpretation of Mt 16:18, nor did he really support the current view of the RCC Eucharist.
---Lee1538 on 8/18/08
"For, if the order of the succession of bishops is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter, to whom the Lord said: 'Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (St. Augustine, Epistle 53)
"
That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. " (Sermons 227) |
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---Ruben on 8/19/08 |
Lee said : The Lord did not give any guarantees that His church would be free from error.
Then he said to the disciples, Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.(Luke 10:16)
"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."(Matthew 16:18)
We can easily see that in the lapse of faith in St Peter when he refused to eat with the Gentiles and had to be rebuked by St. Paul. (Gal. 2:11f) -
This scripture had nothing to do about Peter leading people away from the faith, in fact Paul did the samething with Timothy when he had him circumcised after teaching you do not need to! |
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---Ruben on 8/19/08 |
MIC - *Your belief of the scripture Is of 'Your choice' ...
My choice is based upon what makes the most sense - as the other choices are based more upon superstition liken to what we have seen in pagan religions.
The entire book of John has many metaphors in it and not every things needs to be taken literally. Jesus state I am the Door, the good shepherd, the way, bread of life, etc.
In fact Jesus Himself stated in John 16:25 I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.
I am glad that you are starting to at least recognize there are other interpretations that make sense. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/19/08 |
Robert:-I agree but what if someone countermands,and belittles your belief and condems you. Do you remain silent?or seek rebuttal.Presenting the truth with His WORD. |
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---MIC on 8/19/08 |
Good Grief! God made fellowship a bit easier than these debated tirades? God watches over His Word to perform it. That should convince some He is big enough to preserve His message in HIS BOOK so Old and New Testament essentials are available to all. Our responsibility is to share Jesus' ministry and Truth both in written/oral to all. Jesus said His words are Spirit, that transcends human speech. We are not spirit filled automatically. By Faith/determined desire it is experienced after salvation. Relationship with God begins before this. "Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". The Holy Spirit leads you into all truth. It's a person's responsibility to desire and seek his Creator and God. The journey begins then. |
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---Robert on 8/19/08 |
Lee:: Your belief of the scripture Is of 'Your choice' and you call it Parellelism. Parellel lines never meet with continuous continuity.Jesus with the RCC under the Guidance of the H/S call it Transubstantiation.If you desire to be Right you may do so by your interpretation I prefer the literal straightforward meaning of what Jesus said."Take and eat THIS IS MY BODY"whether you call it Magic the truth is, there for those who desire to believe the word of God as it says in JN6:66you may continueon the parellelism which has NO END. similar to eternity.If you are asking me to believe you -Sorry I disagree. |
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---MIC on 8/18/08 |
Ruben - *Without the knowledge of the Magisterium...
If the Roman church were to declare who composed their Magisterium, they would find that on some topics, there was no consensus of viewpoint.
The most prominent member that would be considered would certainly be St. Augustine, but he did not even agree with the current RCC interpretation of Mt 16:18, nor did he really support the current view of the RCC Eucharist.
The Lord did not give any guarantees that His church would be free from error. We can easily see that in the lapse of faith in St Peter when he refused to eat with the Gentiles and had to be rebuked by St. Paul. (Gal. 2:11f) - maybe he did not of your Magisterium LOL! |
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---Lee1538 on 8/18/08 |
Lee said : Compare John 6:40 with John 6:54, you have what is known as a literary parallelism.
The words 'beholdeth' and 'believeth' (6:40) are parallel to 'eateth' and 'drinketh' (6:54). Both acts result in the same thing - 'have eternal life'.
Yes Lee you have to do both to life eternal life, since you believe 6:54 is symbolic then 6:40 is also symbolic, right?
Further parallelism is seen by comparing 6:33-36 with 6:51-56.
v33-36 read whoever comes to me wil never hunger and believe in me wiil never thirst, nothing here about "eat" "blood" and "flesh" which v51-56 states, besides v55 read "My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink" |
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---Ruben on 8/18/08 |
Ruben - **Where in the Bible does it provide a list of canonical books of the new testament?
If a list of canocial books of the New Testament is really needed, then should we also have a glossary of terms?
Those that do not have the unction of the Holy Spirit within them to recognize what are the Words of God, simply have only religion, not the Spirit of God.
And religion alone will not qualify one to have fellowship with the Lord either in this life or the life to come. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/18/08 |
*Where in the Bible does it provide a list of canonical books of the new testament?
Lee said : I would like to know why you feel a table of content is important in light of the fact that the early church had pretty much a consensus as to what constituted NT scripture by the late 2d or 3rd century? The earliest listing named the basic 27 books!
Without the knowledge of the Magisterium, which provided with Christ's own teaching authorithy ( Matt 16: 16-18) and protected by the Holy Sprirt ( John 14:25-26) and the living Apostolic Tradition(word you hate) of the Church (Luke 1:3-4)( 2 Thess 2:15) ( 2 Tim 2:2), how would you know which books belong and don't?
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---Ruben on 8/18/08 |
MIC - There is a more rationale approach to the Eucharist other than believing some hidden miracle takes place during the Eucharist.
Compare John 6:40 with John 6:54, you have what is known as a literary parallelism.
The words 'beholdeth' and 'believeth' (6:40) are parallel to 'eateth' and 'drinketh' (6:54). Both acts result in the same thing - 'have eternal life'.
Further parallelism is seen by comparing 6:33-36 with 6:51-56.
Jesus is therefore not talking about a ritualistic act but about believing in his atoning death on man's behalf.
This is a far better and rational interpretation of that passage on which transubstantiation is based as you do not make a miracle worker out of the officiator. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/18/08 |
Kenny and Lee:-1 Prayer contains praise and adoration Intercession is to ask.2Where did Jesus Baptise?did he? John was the Baptiser Jesus was the councellor He sent men to Baptise.Matt28:19-20, 3Flesh is meat.Yes to all outward appearances but by the power of God Transubstantiation does take place,which many do not understand or believe.Jesus says "My body is REAL FOOD and my Blood is real Drink"Now consider if Jesus who is going back to the father says this and HE IS A SPIRIT"tell me how would you solve this problem, without a visible ingredient to partake. would you then believe if you got just fresh air and was receiving Jesus would you believe.what better way than Bread and wine the available staple diet of the era. |
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---MIC on 8/18/08 |
Once again I state that false teachers are able to prey on people because they know many people will never follow the command which is found in 2 Timothy 2:14-26, and people will not follow the example found in Acts 17:11.
False teachers also will never ever talk about what is written in 2 Peter Chapter 2, Romans 1:18-32, or 2 Corinthians 2:13-15.
Christ came to set people free, Galatians 5:1, and John 8:32.
False teachers are the servants of Satan. They are able to keep people in bondage because they know people either don't know God's Word and God's Truths, or they reject God's Word and God's Truths. |
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---Rob on 8/17/08 |
Kenny:Your accusation is untrue?but never mind If a simple query is an attack.Would a loud noise then, be to you a sign of war?Tut tut man you are losing your grip on reality.The 3 reasons given, were what constitutes a mortal sin,and is what you asked.Is this abuse?False accusations are unbecoming of any Honest man.
PS:- Is Zondervan greater than the word of God?Stick with Books that have an "IMPRAMATUR"They at least are reliable. |
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---MIC on 8/17/08 |
This tread is starting to get rather silly. Kenny asked Ruben where in scripture are we told TO pray TO anyone other than God, and he replies with a verse that tells us to pray FOR someone.
Then Kenny ask where does Jesus ever baptize with water and Ruben replies with a verse that speaks of being born of water & Spirit, nothing about baptism at all.
Then to top it all off Ruben fails to understand that flesh & meat are essentially the same substance.
Perhaps Ruben is suffering from too much religion and should go read a comic book as he simply tries in desperation to avoid answering the questions. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/17/08 |
Ruben,
You make no argument at all with the scripture verses you use. You have no answers to my questions either. |
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---Kenny on 8/16/08 |
*Where in the Bible does it provide a list of canonical books of the new testament?
I will let Kenney also answer those questions, but I would like to know why you feel a table of content is important in light of the fact that the early church had pretty much a consensus as to what constituted NT scripture by the late 2d or 3rd century? The earliest listing named the basic 27 books!
Is it that you feel that your church should supercede the authority of Scripture? Or is it that you feel your church may find a need to add to what is scripture as what we currently have you deem inadequate? |
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---Lee1538 on 8/16/08 |
Ruben, 1 Tim. 3:15 "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." first, the house of God is translated, "Household." Believers are members of God's household (Gal. 6:10, Eph. 2:19, Heb. 3:6), and must act accordingly. This is not in reference to a building or denomination, but people who make up the true Church, who are Spiritually baptize into one body by the Spirit. "The pillar and ground of the truth" Paul is refering to the temple in Diana which had 127 gold-plated marble pillars. "The mystery of godliness" is that tern used by Paul to indicate truth hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the N. T. (the truth of salvation and righteousness of Christ). |
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---Mark_V. on 8/16/08 |
MIMA:: Your concern for your Catholic Friends is admirable.BUT what about Our God-JESUS, is it ok to Offend Him.?Surely you missed something Here where your friends are more important than God-Jesus! |
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---MIC on 8/15/08 |
MIC,
Again you attack, as you did about my mortal sin question instead of giving an educated explanation. The reason for such a reaction may be because you have no educated explanation? Call me whatever name you wish MIC. All I can tell you is that God came to me when I asked, at a point in my life when I desperately needed Him. I believe in His son Jesus Christ and "the Book" I read is The Life Application Study Bible, the New International Version by Zondervan. I purchased it about eight years ago from the Family Christian Book Store. Now, can you give me an answer to my questions or not? |
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---Kenny on 8/15/08 |
Kenny said :To All Of The Catholic Bible Scholars,
Where in scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than God?
"and pray for each other... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."(James 5:16)
Where in scripture does Jesus ever baptise with water?
He doesn't but said we must "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God "John 3:5)
Where in scripture is bread ever changed to meat?
Not to meat but his Flesh " This bread is my flesh" (John 6:51) |
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---Ruben on 8/15/08 |
Kenny, Now can you answer my questions:
1. Where in the Bible does it provide a list of canonical books of the new testament?
2. Explain the doctrine of the trinity?
3. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith will be based soley on a book or books?
4. Where did Jesus tell his disciples to write everything down and gather it into a bible where it is final authorithy?
5. If the Bible is the final authorithy of our christians faith, why does the bible say the church is the pillar and foundation of truth?(1 Tim 3:15) |
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---Ruben on 8/15/08 |
Kenny, don't get worked up. Jesus spoke metaphorically about bread turned in His Body. He followed by "do this in remembrance"... The problem is simple, Jesus did away the ritualistic law of the Old Testament, by Himself fulfilling the law. The RCC and whoever, can't shake false religiosity and making things up as they go along. God desires "obedience" rather than "sacrifice". He's speaking of a heart conversion, a new nature and daily intimacy with Him. This other religious mess and made up junk w/out scriptural basis is another example of man and his religion trying have power over others, while fooled again by Satan. The result is pollution of God's Word and missing the simplicity of the ministry of Jesus. |
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---Robert on 8/15/08 |
Kenny ::To you seeing is believing, hence,the need for visible Proof.Jesus has a word for these in Jn20:27-29"Blessed are those who have not seen but yet have come to believe."The questions you ask are all in the Book of His WORD.The choice, is yours. Even the Pharasees asked for a sign .Did He give it to them?--NO |
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---MIC on 8/15/08 |
---Kenny please refrain from asking such questions. It upsets my Catholic friends |
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---Mima on 8/15/08 |
Was Judas one of the twelve? Jesus said, Father I have kept all the YOU have given me, except one, who is lost. You see even Judas went out two by two and performed miracles, healed and he was even the trusted minister of finance of the twelve and look at him now. Imagine one in twelve in your church is playing for the other team...it is a work of charity to cry wolf when it enters in among the flock!
Listen to what the Spirit has to say! |
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---Friend_Of_God on 8/14/08 |
To All Of The Catholic Bible Scholars,
Where in scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than God? Where in scripture does Jesus ever baptise with water? Where in scripture is bread ever changed to meat? Where in scripture is any liquid turned to blood? Where in scripture does Jesus give The Catholic Church God's authority on earth? Tell me where and when in scripture God does these things. |
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---Kenny on 8/14/08 |
Samuel, you are 1/2 right.
Only about the Schism of the Eastern Church leaving Church in 1056 A.D. They became known as Orthodox at this time.
The RCC taught Tradition by mouth or written.
Are you saying that someone in the year 400 wrote the Bible and decided to put in Matthew 16?
The notion that the Bible fell from Heaven in a nice book is odd.
The RCC always remembered Jesus' words.
The Gospels were written. Luke who also wrote Acts, knew Peter. Mark as well wrote his Gospels from Peter's lips.
4th century is when the selections of Canons (Gospels and Letters) were choosen to form the NT, by the RCC.
Taught and True since Jesus spoke Matthew 16. |
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---Nicole on 8/14/08 |
The gatekeeper opens it for him,and the sheep hear his voice,as he calls his own sheeps name and leads them out..Jesus clarifies..(Scripure confirms scripture)
John10:11-12Hired man..If the gatekeeper is a Hired man...He sees
the wolf coming..why? he is a "Watcher"..
and runs away..--char
Char, thank you for answering. No one else will.
You are right about the hired man will run away.
But, the porter or gatekeeper didn't in Jesus' Parable.
V 3 The gatekeeper opens it for Him,
He is there touching the gate for Jesus.
Maybe it is because Peter isn't a hired man.
Where in the Gospels shows Jesus paying the Disciples for accompaning Him?
Keys were only given.
No Money was exchanged. |
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---Nicole on 8/14/08 |
Tts 1:7-8 a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent...---Samuel
Jesus chose Judas.
Should we except not pick a bad Bishop?
Do better than Jesus?
Are you saying a evil Bishop can't be a Bishop because he is evil?
If Paul has to write a check list, than it is possible to have bad Bishops
There are evil Bishops in Protestants Circles as well.
No Church can escape from picking a bad apple.
We are not in Heaven yet.
And we are still kicked out of the Garden.
Not that being in the Garden would protect us from evil beings.
Satan managed to get in there as well.
Heaven is our only rest area from the evil ones |
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---Nicole on 8/14/08 |
Dear Nicole
You are welcome.
(Matthew 16 is the reason why the RCC wrote 882
V 19..Whatever u declare bound or loosed on earth shall be bound or loosed in Heaven.
Jesus' Words not ours. Whatever means anything and everything. Jesus was only speaking to Peter. Remember only Peter out of the 12 knew the answer to Jesus' question.
That's why the other Bishops today are outranked by the Bishop of Rome.)
In the first 400 years of the church this was not true and not taught. In fact this teaching helped lead to the Great Schism splitting the RCC from the Orthodox. All the church like the council that judged Peter was to decide. |
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---Samuel on 8/14/08 |
Samuel, thank you for using the Catechism!
Matthew 16 is the reason why the RCC wrote 882
V 19..Whatever u declare bound or loosed on earth shall be bound or loosed in Heaven.
Jesus' Words not ours. Whatever means anything and everything. Jesus was only speaking to Peter. Remember only Peter out of the 12 knew the answer to Jesus' question.
That's why the other Bishops today are outranked by the Bishop of Rome.
Your opinion about Luke 22:31-32?
"Simon, Simon! Remember that Satan has asked for you,(not all the Apostles, even Satan knows the power of the keys) to sift you all(plural, including the others Church) But I prayed for you that your faith may NEVER FAIL. You in turn must strengthen your brothers." |
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---Nicole on 8/13/08 |
True Sheperd vs. false sheperd
John10:2-3
#2 BUT whoever enters through the gate is
The [sheperd] of the sheep.
Jesus as The [Son of Man]
Hears the VOICE of his Father...
Jesus the {Son of God] is the Word of his Father being spoken...
A true sheperd speaks the Word of God:Jesus
And then....
#3 The gatekeeper opens it for him,and the sheep hear his voice,as he calls his own sheeps name and leads them out.
In [THIS] parable The Greek word for gatekeeper is a(porter),watcher.
Jesus clarifies...
(Scripure confirms scripture)
John10:11-12
Hired man...
If the gatekeeper is a Hired man...He [sees]
the wolf coming...why? he is a "Watcher"...
and runs away... |
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---char on 8/13/08 |
John9:22The Pharisees closed the door
Jesus doesn't...JESUS PROVIDES ACCESS..
not a church or man..
False teachers can not Teach the true Jesus...
door keepers keep an eye out for them..
The blind can not see...
JESUS PROVIDES the sight for the blind
LIGHT out of Darkness.
The Greek word for doorkeeper was provided and scriptures that sheds light...
(thuroros)-Watcher
I agree ...
John10:9
IF by Jesus ANYMAN enter in...he shall be saved..
and can walk in & out and find pasture...
Seek and you will find...
Door keeper watch for the return of OUR Master,
& the thief teaching the wolf in sheeps clothing.
God bless you. |
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---char on 8/13/08 |
Ccc 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."
NKJV
Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
Tts 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, |
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---Samuel on 8/13/08 |
The Pharasees, always on occassion questioned to entrap Jesus while He was preaching His Doctrines.In His word in the scriptures who are those who do like wise today?.To make a statement and deny to give an explaination "Because it is too long, space permitted is a poor excuse. The truth is always contained in a few sentences."My Church"always bears the truth.Matt16:13-19. The statement, to defeat God's purpose would be a poor excuseas Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". |
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---MIC on 8/13/08 |
Simple, just have an open heart and do it for the right reason.---Mark_V. on 8/13/08
I am not asking you to explain 1800 yrs of RCC's intrepretation of the Holy Bible.
Please, stop making this difficult.
Yes, I can and I am honest.
I will tell you if I don't know something.
I have before.
The question is a simple one.
Please tell me your opinion, who is the Gatekeeper in John 10 who is opens the gate for Him. We both know that 'Him' stands for Jesus. The sheep are us.
Jesus is talking and He states someone else is opening the gate for Him.
John 10:2-4
The gatekeeper opens it for Him, and the sheep hears His voice, as He calls His own sheep by name.
Who is the gatekeeper? |
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---Nicole on 8/13/08 |
Do you pray to Mary?--Samuel
Yes.
I DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.
Prayer for you is both worship and communication. Not us!
Old English, you will hear them saying "I pray, do not leave me."
Just watch a movie on PBS.
Are they worshipping each other?
Prayer is a communication method.
Your Church only has preaching and singing. When you pray, you think you are worshipping.
Not so limited in my Church.
We worship. Chapters read from the OT, NT with extra Scriptures in the Gospel. The Priest gives a Homily on the Scriptures read.
The 2nd half is pure worship. We Worship Jesus with our whole mind, lips, body, soul and heart. Exactly as God commanded us.
We are not afraid to bend the knee. |
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---Nicole on 8/13/08 |
Samuel, I saw the Plague on the History Channel.
They also have a special called the Dark Ages.
The people praying to Mary, for prayers quests.
The same Protestants do in asking Pastors.
This website post prayer requests. Puzzling to most Catholics.
You tell us go to Jesus only.
You ask others, but we can't?
The puzzling part is this: The other person's soul might be darker than yours. Jesus will listen to you faster than he.
So, we ask those we KNOW are in Heaven, His Mother.
Be careful with the History Channel.
They are secular and hate the RCC. They hate Protestants 2nd.
I know they lie on the knowledge I alread know.
So, how can I trust them with the knowledge, I do not know? |
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---Nicole on 8/13/08 |
The Catachism says:
As a result the [Catholic] Church does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence. CCC para 82
The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithfulhe proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such. CCC para 891
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. NKJV Isiah 8:20 |
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---Samuel on 8/13/08 |
Nicole, in order for me to show you how the Catholic Church twist scripture to come out with what they believe, would take me more then is allowed here on line. From the very beginning of the Catechisms to the end are words mixed with rules so that the reader believes two or more idea's they want you to believe. They never make something just plain and simple. Faith, baptism, regeneration and so on. When they want to prove their teaching they sometimes gives some guy from the past as the proof and many times they give Scripture passage that have nothing to do with what they are saying when interpreted.
Why don't you go over them and if you are honest you will know the Truth. Simple, just have an open heart and do it for the right reason. |
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---Mark_V. on 8/13/08 |
Nicole - Jesus stated He is the good shepherd -
John 10:11,14 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Shepherds built small corrals using local material such as rocks into which they herded their sheep for the night. The shepherd then slept at the gate of the pen, thus effectively being the gatekeeper.
While they often had hirelings for their sheep, it was not recommended.
Joh 10:12,13 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/12/08 |
MarkV, please post John 10:1-4. V 3 has a 3rd person, Gatekeeper! V 3 The Gatekeeper opens it for Him.
Who is Him? Jesus right. Who is the Gatekeeper? Who is opening the Gate.--Nicole on 8/8/08
Nicole, the RCC through the years has taken what glory belong to Christ and gave it to your church and saints...You fight for what is wrong. You say you give the glory to Jesus because you take His Word, but you are taking the RCC's word because....
---Mark_V. on 8/11/08
Please stop spinning.
Are you going to answer my question or not?
Who is the Gatekeeper?
If not, please tell me so we don't have 10 rounds of this question and AlanUK has to jump into the conversation. Then StongAxe has to break it all up |
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---Nicole on 8/12/08 |
John10:1-He that enter not by the door(Jesus)into the Sheepfold, (BUT)climb up some other way, the same is a thief/robber.Porter-keeper WATCHES the door--char
Jesus didn't say the word 'same'. only U!
He said IS.
Jesus said, Whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief/robber.
Jesus isn't a sheep and isn't in a fold of sheep.
Whoever isn't Jesus, but U and I.
Whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the Gate, that whoever(sheep) climbs over is a thief.
If your Bible has watches instead of Opens the Gate, this is strange. But, no matter.
Why have a Porter-keeper? If he is watching and some have to climb to get inside. LOCKED!
Why Climb if U can walk? |
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---Nicole on 8/12/08 |
I was watching a special on the Plague and how the people of many villages prayed to Mary in the name of JESUS. Do you pray to Mary?
JESUS said Pray to the Father.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. |
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---Samuel on 8/12/08 |
Jesus is the gatekeeper.---Lee1538 on 8/9/08
Jesus uses Himself standing next to this GateKeeper.
John 10:2-4
The gatekeeper opens it for Him, and the sheep hears His voice, as He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. When He has driven out all His own, He walks ahead of them, and the sheep follow Him, because they recognize His Voices.
Note the comma in the first Sentence.
You can't spin this sentence. 3
1. Gatekeeper
2. Him = Who is Jesus
3. Sheep = Us.
Jesus is leading us out.
He is walking and we are following Him, right?
I don't know about you? But, my English tells me that if you are a keeper, you stay with the object you keep.
Gatekeeper better stay with the gate! |
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---Nicole on 8/11/08 |
"RCC has taken glory belong to Christ and gave it to your church and saints. That's clearly in all your catechisms. From justification by faith and works,reverance and glory to saints,to Mary worship."
{If clearly in the Catechism, please show me.
Proved this Data MarkV data!
Why are you keeping this from me?}
"You say you give the glory to Jesus because you take His Word, but you are taking the RCC's word because you admitted you were here to protect her."
{No, She protects me the sheep of Jesus, His commandment to Peter in John 21:15-19, and my mouth is wide opened. Show me the words of the Catechism by the RCC that states opposite of Jesus? Show me? Use # please.}
---Mark_V. on 8/11/08 |
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---Nicole on 8/11/08 |
Nicole, the RCC through the years has taken what glory belong to Christ and gave it to your church and saints. That is clearly in all your catechisms and articles of faith. From justification by faith and works, to the rise, reverance and glory to saints, to Mary worship and glory to her. Then you turn around and turn Christ into an inanimat object. In complete contradiction to the Trinity. You fight for what is wrong. You say you give the glory to Jesus because you take His Word, but you are taking the RCC's word because you admitted you were here to protect her. And you protect her even when it compromises the Word of God. Then if the Word is given to you, you believe the RCC made the Word anyway so what is the difference. |
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---Mark_V. on 8/11/08 |
We believe in the NAME( Jesus Christ) is LORD,died/rose from the Dead,"Son of God", "Word of God" made flesh.
Makes US God's child,brother/sister IN-CHRIST, SERVANTS/SHEEP.
John9:Potter/Clay
John9:28Pharisees claim disciple-ship of Moses
John10:1-Verily... He that enter not by the door(Jesus) into the Sheepfold,(BUT) climb up some other way, the same is a thief/robber.(False Sheperd to still the sheep).
John10:2 (BUT) he that enter in by the door IS THE SHEPERD of the sheep.(Saved-contingency)John10:9
Porter-keeper WATCHES the door(NO Authority-only TO SERVANTS)
Mark 13:34/John18:16-17(Same Greek word -thuroros),
The Father LEADS SHEEP to the Son and vice- versa
John10:29-30
John17:6 |
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---char on 8/10/08 |
Nicole, with one wrong interpretation of Scripture you build a case against Christ. You cannot help yourself. The glory is taken from Christ through most of the traditions of the RCC. Idol worship, the Rock, and the misinterpretation of all the popes condoning Idol worship and reverance to all the saints through history. What you forget is that all the good they did was because of Christ. The Spirit working through them. Instead the saints get the glory. They have one day for Christ and many days for the saints. When the Mary theology came into being, more moved away from Christ and gave the glory to her. More away from Christ. Even your answers go away from Christ. And what does He get? Nothing for all the work He is doing in people's lifes. |
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---Mark_V. on 8/9/08 |
In ancient days, a shepherd built an enclosure in which he kept his sheep. He then at nights slept at the entry to the enclosure. As such the shepherd was the gate keeper. As Jesus is the good shepherd of the sheep, He is the gatekeeper, not some hireling who may run away at the first sign of danger. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/9/08 |
MarkV, please post John 10:1-4. V 3 has a 3rd person, Gatekeeper! V 3 The Gatekeeper opens it for Him.
Who is Him? Jesus right. Who is the Gatekeeper? Who is opening the Gate.
V 7-9, I agree. I said Jesus is the Shepherd and the Gate.
We are the sheep.
Who is the Gatekeeper? Not the Gate, but the keeper.
V 1 proves the Gate is locked. Climbing over means you can't get in the traditional.
Who has keys? Jesus is speaking in John 10 and Matt 16.
Do you think He forgot what He said in V 19?
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.
Who is in Heaven? Jesus
John 10:9 I am the Gate.
No, I gave the Glory to Jesus, because I take Him at His Words.
He gave glory to the RCC not me! |
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---Nicole on 8/8/08 |
Nicole you stole the glory from Christ and gave it to the RCC and Peter. John 10:1-5,6-10.
If you care to know 7-10 is the third of 7 "I am" statements of Jesus, (6:35, 8:12) Here, Jesus Christ, changes the metaphor slightly. While in vv. 1-5 He is the "I am" The Shepherd, in v. 9 He is the gate. While in vv.1-5 the Shepherd led the Sheep out of the pen, here He is the "enterance" "Door" or gate to the pen v. 9 that leads to proper pasture. The passage echoes Jesus words in 14:6 that He is the only way to the Father. His point is that He serves as the sole means to approach the Father and partake of God's promise salvation. It matters to Christ who gets the glory. |
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---Mark_V. on 8/7/08 |
Thank you Char for your quotes from John 10. which passages were given by Nicole but instead of Christ been the Shepherd or the Gate, the RCC and Peter were substituted. I wrote something similar as you in my interpretation of John 10, after reading what she wrote. I hadn't seen or read your response before I answered. She stole the glory that belongs to Christ and gave it to her church and Peter. Could I expect anything less? "Peter the Rock that holds everything together" Peter takes the glory.
But Praise God for being the Rock The Shepherd and also the Gate. The Great "I am." |
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---Mark_V. on 8/7/08 |
Sight and Blindness...
JOHN9:35-41
Again...the Belief on "The Son of God"
the story preceding contrasts the willing faith of the man vs.the willful blindness of Jesus' enemies....
JOHN 10
Jesus the Shepherd and Jesus the Gate.
Jesus contrast himself with the false shepherds of Israel represented by the Pharisees.
The GATEKEEPER of the Fold and the Sheep distinguish the genuine shepherds VOICE from the
INTERLOPERS-(False shepherds)
...whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate (Jesus Christ) but climbs over...
is a thief (false shepherd).
This in not teaching about Peter,the church being the way to Jesus/locked doors...
It's teaching about FALSE SHEPHERDS trying to still THE SHEEP. |
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---char on 8/7/08 |
Lee::Was not Peters confession, as you call it, in disagreement to what Jesus says Matt16:17Jesus calls it a 'revelation from His Father'.One cannot crack what Jesus says in His gospel-God's word.Would the Early church Fathers know more than what the Heavenly Father says in scripture?We quibble over trivialities Christ was Incarnate. If He left the future administration of His Church with His teachings in able hands chosen by the Father.Are we, His minions or administrators? who else would attempt to destroy His kingdom.This is the real question. |
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---MIC on 8/6/08 |
The rock being the confession of Peter that thou art the Christ the son of the living God.
It is interesting that NONE of the early church fathers of the first 2 centuries can be cited as supporters of the RCC interpretation of Mt. 16:18. And even St. Augustine stated in his works quoted 1 Cor.1:12 in support of the view that the church was built upon Christ the rock, not upon Peter.
---Lee1538 on 8/6/08
I don't know what history you are speaking of, because the real history has the Fathers as in the RCC.
That why they are called 'Fathers of the Church'.
But, no answer to my question?
Why would they replace Judas and not Peter? |
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---Nicole on 8/6/08 |
No Nicole it does not make sense. The Church is built on all the Prophets, Apostles and JESUS CHRIST. The Rock according to Peter is JESUS CHRIST. The bible says Our only sure rock is GOD. I will follow the Psalmist and build on GOD.
nasb Psa 62:1 My soul {waits} in silence for God only, From Him is my salvation.
Psa 62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold, I shall not be greatly shaken.
Psa 62:5 My soul, wait in silence for God only, For my hope is from Him.
Psa 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold, I shall not be shaken.
Psa 62:7 On God my salvation and my glory {rest,} The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God. |
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---Samuel on 8/6/08 |
Nicole - when I asked 'where does it state that anything was handed down to the bishops of Rome' you replied with Mt 16:18. But having been a student of Greek, it does not state that the church in that verse is the church of Rome.
As a good example of RCC bias, a neighbor of mine was to be a priest. He handed me his catechism books and I read
Q: why did Martin Luther leave the church?
A: he wanted to marry a nun.
Once he got into seminary one of his teachers informed him Martin Luther had valid reasons for complaint, that the church at that time was very corrupt in both doctrine & practice.
He dropped out of seminary and became a school teacher and later married. He refused to be blind or follow the blind. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/6/08 |
MIC - *But Jesus did say"HE who is Not with me is against me."I shall therefore conclude you have a bias and unworthy to present an issue with which you disagree but do not fully understand.
Yes, Christ stated that he who is not with me is against me, but He did not say that who is not with the Roman catholic church is not with me. Mt.12:30
Your interpretation is that the church is an earthly visible institution but more exactly it is that body composed of all those in whom His Spirit indwells (Romans 8:9).
Hopefully you will be able to see the fallibility of your interpretation - millions already have. My bias btw is on the side of the truth. |
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---Lee1538 on 8/6/08 |
Here is a great truth!!
*****"The Church brings us to Jesus"****No, actually Jesus brings us into the Church...His Body! ---kathr4453 on 8/6/08 |
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---Mima on 8/6/08 |
Ruben - you asked for chapter & verse where the Holy Spirit reveals truth to whom He indwells.
For one thing the Holy Spirit indwells all Christians -
---Lee1538 on 8/5/08
No Lee That is not what I ask, Here is what I ask : lee said :Ruben - Most of us today agree that it was the Holy Spirit who revealed what Scripture was to those whom He indwelt
Where is scriptures does it say the Holy Spirit reveled which books belong in the Bible, Nice try though! |
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---Ruben on 8/6/08 |
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