Mark V.~ Thank you for that clarification you made. I would also add to your point #4...that the Bible spells out the difference between a true Christian, and a 'counterfeit' Christian. The book of I John gives a very clear description between a true and counterfeit Christian. |
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---Anne on 11/29/08 |
Read Hebrews 6:4-6. Salvation can be lost. It is the deliberate,willful turning away that causes this.This text speaks of those who have been enlightened,and made partakers of the Holy Ghost.God gives us free will.We are not his slaves.The choice is ours to make.
How can a person turn back to Christ if he has decided to reject him. They have experienced salvation to the full and have now turned away.There is no place for repentence in that person(per the text).
We reject these verses by saying they were not really saved,but the text is clear.It is not by sin salvation is lost, but by choice. |
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---Michael on 11/29/08 |
Did you all forget,I am the Way,Light,and Truth.God did it again.Isreal asked for a king and He gave them David.We asked for an idol and He gave us Himself in human form.Jesus! |
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---calvin on 11/26/08 |
RCC and Bible:
1. RCC, salvation comes through them.
The Bible: Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.
2. RCC believes the title of saints goes only to those who did good deeds.
The Bible: All born of the Spirit are saints.
3. RCC, if they sin the priest can forgive their sins against God.
The Bible: God forgives sins.
4. RCC teaches they are saved by allowing themselves to be baptized, eating Christ, and doing good deeds.
The Bible: All who confess Christ as Lord and Savior by faith and believes in his heart that Christ died for their sins is saved.
4. When a member of the RCC dies in sin he goes to purgatory.
The Bible: When someone dies not covered by the blood of Christ he is going to hell. |
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---MarkV. on 11/26/08 |
nicole,
Exodus 24:18 doesn't say that, this is what it says-Moses entered the cloud as he went on up the mountain. And he stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights
In Numbers 21:4-9, God said to "LOOK at it" not worship it.
In fact here is the reason why in verse 9
"Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived."
It was created to heal. Not for worship.
So, no, God did not forget, you just misread it and the RCC has misrepresented it by making "other images"
Anyway, back to the subject. Lose salvation?
Only if you want to give it up. |
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---miche3754 on 11/26/08 |
Mic, nothing you say to me can hurt me personally. I am not responding to any denomination. you are. If you were defending the truth of Scripture or doctrines from God's Word then Christ would be your Champion. But you don't. Since you and Nicole been on line it has been to defend the RCC. Their teachings, their doctrines, their believes. And in so doing you attack the person speaking against the teachings. I don't speak against you or say anything evil to you or Nicole. I was just like you once. It was not my fault. It was that I believed in the same RCC that you believe in. I too was in chains to false teaching and it was not my doing. But at some point in time you will have to open your eyes to the real Truth, if you are to see. |
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---MarkV. on 11/26/08 |
Mike :-My one eye is focused on Jesus the other is like my deaf ear-on you and Mark .Your Nicholas in acts 6 was an APOSTATE-BIRDS OF a Feather-As you say he led the people astray.You say "that time and history has changed the face of the church and its teachings "If so what standard do you use to make that interpretation of truth?which as an apostate is opposed to HIS WORD.Talk about Idols what idole imitations of what Jesus and holy People looked like as opposed to a photograph?Come on Mark the idols of yesterday are not the idols of today which is greed sensousness,lust anger leading people astray giving rise to Rev2,man made and O-W-Order conflagratation. |
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---Mic on 11/25/08 |
MarkV, quote my words, not yours.
I said, Luther extended the 1st Commandment into a 2nd.
They are the same.
Luther is feeding you milk again.
"You shall not have other gods besides me." Enough
That means no idol worship. Just because you don't understand that, don't think Catholics don't understand. We do.
You still won't explain why God told the Jews to CRAVE an image of Cherbuim with great details. Exodus 24:18
Bronze Serpent Numbers 21:4-9, and commanded the Jews to LOOK AT IT TO BE HEALED?
God is speaking:
V8 "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover."
What? Did GOD FORGET HIS OWN COMMANDMENTS? |
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---Nicole on 11/25/08 |
Mic, you do need to read Rev. 2 as you need to read the whole of Scripture. It reveals the failures of many churches and why they failed. You say I follow Christ, but what you are really following is the RCC teachings. And their teachings are not following Christ as they did when the church came to be. Through the years many man, some with evil intend and some with good intend changed the interpretations of Scripture for the benefit of the Church. Not for the benefit of the Truth. History shows that through time it went through so many changes. They revised so many Bibles to what they wanted it to say. Changing phrases and adding their own opinions on what God meant. One of the worse was the removel of the commandment against Idol worship. |
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---MarkV. on 11/25/08 |
Mic. 2
The Latin Vulgate was the Bible the RCC used. This Bible had the commandment against Idol worship that Nicole says was not there. " Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me," I can put them down in Latin if you want. The distortion was done for the Idol worship they do. This worship is for others then for Christ. Glory is given to man's work instead of God's. |
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---MarkV. on 11/25/08 |
mic...
Do we really need to investigate Balaam Nicholas.Is the present Peter's successor leading the people into immorality and the church into sentual temptations.......
Hang on to your scapular, mic!
It's gonna start getting rough with the Lords soon return and all.
Notice who the RCC is reaching out to now?
Keep a close eye out for a One-World Church. |
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---Mike356 on 11/24/08 |
Mima~ you're an inspiring person. Wish I knew you in 'real' life. As always, thanks for sharing, and it did help with my question as well. |
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---Anne on 11/24/08 |
Mic, Read Rev. 2. The RCC has left their first love as Ephesus, and as Smyrna, rich with power, and as Pergamos who were holding the doctrines of the Nicolaitans. And God ask them to repent.
"Nicolas" means, one who conquers the people" Sound familiar? The heresy was similar to the teaching of Balaam vv.14,15. Irenaeus writes that Nicolas, who was made a deacon in Acts 6 was a false believer who later became apostate, but because of his credentials he was able to lead the church astray. And like Balaam, he led the people into immorality and assulted the church with sensual temptations.
So much corruption in the RCC that has happened that history is full of reminders.
---MarkV. on 11/24/08
Amen! |
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---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 11/24/08 |
Mark:-Why do I need to read Rev2and waste my time reading things not pertenint to my need .My search ended as a child in the RCC and grows in stature as an adult.Gods word of "Follow me. Iam the way the truth and the life,he who believes me will have eternal life" is His seal of approval.Do we really need to investigate Balaam Nicholas.Is the present Peter's successor leading the people into immorality and the church into sentual temptations or is this something you wish to prove and hopeing it will happen so you can say "There I told you so".Jesus word cannot and will not change.Trust me . |
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---Mic on 11/24/08 |
Mic, Read Rev. 2. The RCC has left their first love as Ephesus, and as Smyrna, rich with power, and as Pergamos who were holding the doctrines of the Nicolaitans. And God ask them to repent.
"Nicolas" means, one who conquers the people" Sound familiar? The heresy was similar to the teaching of Balaam vv.14,15. Irenaeus writes that Nicolas, who was made a deacon in Acts 6 was a false believer who later became apostate, but because of his credentials he was able to lead the church astray. And like Balaam, he led the people into immorality and assulted the church with sensual temptations.
So much corruption in the RCC that has happened that history is full of reminders. |
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---MarkV. on 11/24/08 |
Part # 2 As Dan begin to tell me about what he had said to his Sunday school class I just shook my head. But he said to me you do not know my Sunday school class how do you know how they were going to react. He then went on to tell me that no one was excited with him, in fact acted like he was not telling the truth, and he was very very disappointed in their reactions. At which point I told him,now Dan you can tell me or you can tell some of your other friends who are soulwinners about you are witnessing and they will be joyful with you but the world at large(saved and lost alike) will find your stories of witnessing incredible and simply beyond believing!! |
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---mima on 11/24/08 |
Part #1 MarkV-Anne here is a report concerning this very question.
Last night I met with a 50-year-old man who has just learned how to win souls. In the last week he has witnessed to seven people six of whom received the Lord Jesus Christ. He is of course beside himself with joy. And yesterday morning in Sunday school class(I had previously warned him not to do this) he got up and said he had something to say. At which time he told the members of the Sunday school class exactly what had happened. The results he witnessed and everything and set down.The Sunday school teacher (a deacon in this Baptist church) told the class Dan is just very very excited right now. |
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---mima on 11/24/08 |
Mark/Anne:-"The reformers wanted to correct the false doctrines in the RCC and look at what happened to them"?"Who is a true transformed Believer "and in whose eyes is he Transformed?YES YES YES.Is it not clear that we are dealing with 'The ALMIGHTY GOD' not some figment of the imagination.His edict is clear He came to bring salvation and listen to the nonsensical arguements offered Here, pitting your feeble minds against God who says "FOLLOW ME if you want to live in My Kingdom"The answer is clear- and you dont need me to tell you with all your biases and misguided thoughts,his open arms await your Repentance and His forgiveness.BUT HIS WAY. |
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---Mic on 11/24/08 |
A very good question Anne. I really don't know if a true Christian with the love of Christ can remain in a church that they know speaks contrary to the Word of God.
The reformers wanted to correct the false doctrines the RCC taught and look what happened to them.
A church can and do become apostate when the doctrines taught began to change through the years. It has happened many times. Since we don't know the hearts of individuals we cannot say who is save and who is not. All we can do is discuss the doctrines they teach and bring the Truth. God has a reason for things been as they are. If He so wanted He could destroy any church and not touch the true believers as He did with many that are not there anymore. |
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---MarkV. on 11/24/08 |
Mark V. ~ Why would a true transformed believer in God want to be in a dead or lukewarm church if he is truly transformed? |
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---Anne on 11/24/08 |
Anne,
about Rev. 2. Our rebirth is called "transformation." To be a Christian is to love Christ with our hearts. That love never grows cold, in fact it grows in love because of that transformation. True Christians never grow cold.
A Church as a whole can lose the passion for Christ. It happen's in many churches that started with a big zeal for Christ and later through their own sinful ideas or new members with their own ideas began to separate themselves from been a true Church for reasons like, power, money or control over others. RCC is a good example.
Many true believers are still in those churches, for God says, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' |
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---MarkV. on 11/23/08 |
"Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church (RCC), a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation." St. Jerome: "Commentary on Titus 3:1011."
Sad that to withdraw from the RCC and accept Christ as your saviour, one becomes labeled a "Heretic" and to suffer "damnation". This alone shows that this church and doctrines are not to be followed. We are to be Protestants, and protest any doctrine that is RCC and not from Bible
"Whoever 'obstinately' denies these (Catholic) truths, the doctrinal commentary of Pope John Paul II says, falls under the censure of heresy." Our Sunday Visitor, Analysis, July 19, 1998. |
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---Gina7 on 11/22/08 |
Mic, nowhere does Scripture indicate that Eve had a true love for God. Nowhere does it indicate that the Holy Spirit endwelled either one of them.
A true love for God comes when a person is reborn by the Spirit into one spiritual body. In the Old Testament it was the same as in the New Testament. By grace through faith in God. The Old Testament believers looked forward to the atonement of Christ.
All lost don't believe in Christ so have no love for Christ, only a True believer has a true love for Christ. |
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---MarkV. on 11/22/08 |
Mark V.~ I'd have never guessed you were raised Catholic. It is interesting to hear your experiences, and the thought changes you've gone through! |
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---Anne on 11/21/08 |
Mic, cont:
As for leaving your church, the RCC, It was an act of love for God that I left. I wanted to know the real Truth. I can say that because if I hadn't left, I would still be in unbelief, and without a relationship with Christ.
Like you I believed my church was the light, and that I had a true relationship with her, "Not Christ". That she had all matters covered for me. All I needed was to know what they taught and follow and believe what they said and I was ok. I was deceived. I realized I had been brainwashed. The distortions of Scripture and the Idol worship was the worse.
It wasn't until after I committed my life to Christ and begin studying what the RCC had taught me and found how wrong all of it was. |
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---MarkV. on 11/21/08 |
Mark :- What I said was in the spirit of friendship,however I shall further prove my Point. EVE was Made PURE spotless Yet she succombed to the wiles "of Satan"If you eat the apple You will be like GOD" Gen3:5Did she not love God?But in her human fraility with all her purity.I did not say you dont love Jesus what I say is you Do not love HIM HIS WAY that He asks."FOLLOW ME" |
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---Mic on 11/21/08 |
Mark V.~ Yes, that is the way to know a true believer as you said because we now love walking in the light, and leave behind the evil ways of darkness. What are your thoughts about the churches listed in Rev.Ch 2 though? One is dead, another lukewarm, another perseveres etc. We truly need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because it is not difficult for someone to fall into the dead or lukewarm arenas, and God is certainly not pleased with people who fall into those complacent habits as described in Revelation. |
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---Anne on 11/21/08 |
Mic, you can edge into my thoughts if you want as a well wisher. your answer has a twist to it for it is saying that someone who left the RCC does not have a love for Christ. That is what it implies.
But I will answer you on the Spirit. No evil deceiving spirit can testify that Jesus is the Christ. He would be actually deceiving you, that Jesus is not the Christ. The opposite. Satans and demons speak the opposite of what God says.
Also, when a person has a true love for Christ, He loves Jesus because He is the Light that shines in our hearts. Where before, "And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" We now love the Light. |
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---MarkV. on 11/21/08 |
Thank you Shawn and Miche, for your comments. I accept correction when needed. And I make mistakes and know that many don't correct me because maybe they don't want to hurt my feelings. I don't get mad for that, only if they get mad themselves when they answer. Then I regret I answered.
Let me explain myself. I read what others write and many times all they say I agree with. Some times one little part I see wrong and I try to correct that part if I can.
The reason I do that is because that one little part can take a person far from many Scriptures of truth. That is the reason. I am not out to prove anything in perticular just talking to those who I believe are saved already just as if we met some place and fellowshipped together. |
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---MarkV. on 11/21/08 |
--MarkV: My apologies, brother!!
I didn't note that your focus was on "(if you have members of your church "who actually don't believe" then you just proved your church is not that of God)"
Brother it's "I" that was missing something here!! God Bless You for your patience with me (-:
---*Manny*---,This is an untrue statement on many levels. Understand the main one being that the validity of each individuals part in believing by faith in the body of Christ, has nothing to do with the unbelief of the anyone gathering with them!! |
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---Shawn_M.T. on 11/20/08 |
I just want to say that I LOVE your positive attitudes here lately...that is so refreshing and encouraging. I especially liked what you said about you not minding being corrected when it comes to scripture Mark V. The important thing is that we're all growing and learning, and letting the Bible be our ultimate guide for that growth and not the thoughts of man. |
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---Anne on 11/20/08 |
No, salvation is by the grace of God and one who God saves is kept by that same grace.Other wise salvation would be conditioned on the sinner thus whatever work they do saves them and keeps them or they lose it or keep it. Hence, that would make Christ "finished work" of none effect. Salvation is ALL conditioned on Christ start to finish that is why it is called GRACE. The question might be posed, which Christ are you trusting in the one that made salvation possible or the true Christ that secured salvation. "He sall save His people from their sins" "all that the Father gave me shall come" |
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---steven-rem7000 on 11/20/08 |
Mark:-Salvation is an integeral part of man,and this is the only reason for edgeing into your thoughts,which you say"No one knows who is truly saved and who is no.Your post(11/19/08)What we know is if the spirit,witnesses to your spirit,that you are a child of God then you are saved(what about a false spirit of deception at this point)Even if you love God,then you know you are saved?"!!by what (a false spirit)Therefore your last Quote by Jesus is also in order (But will be a total surprise )especially if you walked away from His church,and this makes your statement self contradictory IMHO.Just as a well wisher.Sorry to disagree. |
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---Mic on 11/20/08 |
Hello brother Shawn, you don't have to answer my question. It is ok. I am ok with your answer. I maybe understood it wrong. I am sorry if I did. It is nothing to worry about. We are trying to work for the same purpose, for the glory of God.
I make mistakes, which proves I am fallible.
Blessings brother, |
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---MarkV. on 11/20/08 |
markv,
no need to apologize, brother, and I wasn't having a fit. It is just I am not used to you misunderstanding what I have said.
Now, I have had to micro some of the stuff I have said to others because they are not used to the way I speak(type). And they try to read more into what I am saying. Instead of asking for clarification, they just blow up at me,LOL.
Brother, I was agreeing with you, and I still do.
You can only lose it if you chose to give it up.
But lets be for real, I would not want to go back, and neither would any TRUE Christian. |
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---miche3754 on 11/20/08 |
Hello Shawn, I don't mind someone correcting me when it comes to Scripture especially. I believe I was correct in answering him as I did. It would be hard for anyone not to get the same message I got from his answer, he first said, "if you have members of your church "who actually don't believe" then you just proved your church is not that of God"
Implying that if one unbeliever is in a church it is not a church of God. That is pretty clear.
Second he said,
"The people talked about in Hebrew and in Cor. are members of the true church of God" now lets stop there. Implying that the members in both churches were all saved.
Shawn, am I missing something here? |
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---MarkV. on 11/20/08 |
--MarkV:**I understood Manny saying that since they were in a true church they were all saved.**
But he neither said that nor did I discern him as meaning that. This is why I posted you.
**My point was that not all in all churches are saved**
I understand!!
**I didn't have to be reminded that only God knows who is save and who is not**
Didn't think you did, but neither does anyone else....that was my point.
**I know I cannot read someone's heart. It was to the context of to which he wrote.**
You're right to not seek to hear a man's heart, for we seek discernment in the Spirit....and I pray that when my brothers see me stumbling in discerning a matter, that they will correct me (-: |
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---Shawn_M.T. on 11/19/08 |
Amen Markv,
Keep proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ. |
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---duane on 11/19/08 |
No one knows who is truely saved and who is not. We can look at their fruits and yet not know. What we do know is, if the Spirit witnessess to your spirit that you are a child of God then you yourself know that you are saved. If you have a true love for Christ you also know you are saved. For no one who is lost has a true love for Christ.
Many here do not have faith, but are still in unbelief. That is the state in which many are in. If they feel they can lose their salvation because of their works, then they don't have the gospel of Christ. Very simple. Not everyone who say's, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, only those who are born of the Spirit will enter. We are saved by Grace through faith in Christ. |
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---MarkV. on 11/19/08 |
Shawn, I understood Manny saying that since they were in a true church they were all saved. My point was that not all in all churches are saved. I didn't have to be reminded that only God knows who is save and who is not. I know I cannot read someone's heart. It was to the context of to which he wrote. Sorry if I didn't make my statement better, clearer, also to Miche, and sorry for not been specific in every word.
Miche, to you, I am sorry I even answered. I was not trying to micro (whatever) every word, and didn't know you would have a fit. I thought since reading many of your post that I could answer you. I am sorry I did. |
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---MarkV. on 11/19/08 |
Hebrews,
The book of Hebrews does not give references to Gentiles. The book supports the conclusion that a community of Hebrews was the recipient of the epistle. Although these Hebrews were primarily converts to Christ, there were probably a number of unbelievers in their midst, who were attracted by the message of salvation, but who had not yet made a full commitment of faith in Christ. One thing is clear from the contents of the epistle, the community of Hebrews was facing the possibility of intensified persecution (10:32-39, 12:4) As they confronted this possibility, the Hebrews were tempted to cast aside any indenfication with Christ. They had considered demoting Christ from God's son to a mere angel. |
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---MarkV. on 11/19/08 |
--MarkV: **Manny says,"The people talked about in Hebrews and in Cor. are members of the true church of God--therefore they are among those whose sins have been washed by Christ blood because they believed (had faith)." ***
Manny did not say ALL THE PEOPLE, but we should pray that possibly all, in Heb. and Cor. were saved but only God knows these things. But what we do know is, all that believed by faith in Christ are justified and are of His Body(Gal.2:16). Now if they did believe by faith or not, is once again up to God to know.
Manny has demonstrated that ONLY THOSE among them that believed by faith where cleansed by the blood of Christ (by stating," because they believed had faith). |
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---Shawn_M.T. on 11/19/08 |
--MarkV: ***Sorry Miche to disagree with you, God does make us do it. He doesn't force us, He enables us.****
When Miche states "God doesn't make us do it", I believe he's saying God doesn't forces us to do it. I also believe he understands like you and I, that God ENABLE US. (-:
...and when he spoke of not serving two master, he was ascribing to the RCC serving Mary and Christ as equals.
I do believe as you that it takes the hand of God touching our hearts, to enable us to receive salvation...and until we submit and allow Him to do this we have nothing to give up and we can't give up something that we never had to begin with. We can neither LOSE SALVATION nor would what to after our hearts were touched by God. |
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---Shawn_M.T. on 11/19/08 |
mark, what are you talking about?
I did not say we could give it up. re read my whole post.
I meant before we get saved we have a choice, to follow God or not.
What in the name, do I have to again micro manage what I say?
Mark, do me a favor- stop preaching to the chior and just re read my post. |
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---miche3754 on 11/18/08 |
Sorry Miche to disagree with you, God does make us do it. Everything we do we do it because of God. We love Him because He first loved us. If He hadn't love us we would never know the love of Christ. We work for Him because He enables us to work for Him through the Spirit. Even when we don't know why we do good to others, it is the Spirit leading us to do those things. Without God we would be lost. So God does make us do it. He doesn't force us, He enables us.
You also said you cannot serve two masters, and yet believe you can give up your love for God. If you can give it up and love the enemy, then you can love and serve two masters. I don't believe you can once you are in Christ. You can only Love and serve One Master and that is Jesus. |
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---MarkV. on 11/18/08 |
alan,
I guess you didnt see where I gave in to you and kath, right?
By the way, Kath was agreeing with you.
I know that you, me, kath, mima, and others do not lift up Mary to the same level as Christ. But there are some that do.
Anyway, brother, I had moved on(you should reread my post).
I don't believe I can lose my salvation.
I do believe I could give it up. This goes back to free will.
We serve God through love and devotion, because we want to. God does not make us do it. Doesn't the Bible say we cant serve two masters? I believe it does. |
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---miche3754 on 11/18/08 |
Shawn T.
Manny says,
"The people talked about in Hebrews and in Cor. are members of the true church of God--therefore they are among those whose sins have been washed by Christ blood because they believed (had faith)."
First, The True church of God consist of all those who have been born again by the Spirit and are spiritually baptized into one body.
Second, the churches spoken of are gatherings of people and not all are saved. Read about the churches in Revelation.
Institutions have many members who are not saved. And just because they attend a church and hear the Word, does not make them save. Many don't have the ear to hear, the eyes to see, or the heart to percieve |
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---MarkV. on 11/18/08 |
The Lord Gives and The Lord takes away, Blessed Be The Name of The Lord God Forever.
It is His Kingdom, Let Him Run it the Way that He Sees Fit. The One that comes from above is Above All, He speaks concerning the things which He Has Seen and Heard. The one that comes from below speaks as one from below. |
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---jack_david on 11/17/08 |
The scriptures say we are kept by the power of God - 1st Peter 1:5.
Jude 1:1 says were are preserved in Christ.
Jesus said that no man can pluck us from the Father's hand - John 10:28 & 29.
The Lord promises that he will never leave thee nor forsake thee.
John 14:6 says the Comforter will abide with us forever.
The Lord has promised to continue the work he began in you until Christ's return - Phil 1:6
Christ promises that he will not cast away any that come to him - John 6:37 |
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---trey on 11/17/08 |
Miche ... Kathr & I do not "so much emphasis place upon Mary"
And we certainly do NOT uplift her to the same level as our Saviour.
It is you (and seemingly Mima) who refuse to accept the Bible when it says she conceived Jesus, and say Jesus was inserted in her womb.
The fact that the Roman church perhaps ascribe too high a position to Mary should not lead you, out of yuor hatred for the RCC, into demeaning Mary, and drag her down to being LESS than a mother ... just a Rent-a-Womb.
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---alan_of_UK on 11/17/08 |
You wrote it down as I did and you did not understand it. Pius X second encyclical appeared on Dec. 8, 1904. The Immaculate Conception was defined in 1854.
Have you read the Reverend Stephen Keenan's (Controevrsial Catechism?")It had the stamp of Archbishop Hughes of New York. Very interesting.---MarkV. on 11/17/08
Excuse me MarkV, I apologized that I read your post wrong and commented on it.
You still have not given us the name of the Encyclical Pius X wrote with the direct quote you claim.
Now you brought up another topic.
At least you gave a title and author.
Thanks.
Could you also give us the name of that so call Encyclical by Pius X as well?
I will check out his stamp of approval as well. |
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---Nicole on 11/17/08 |
MarkV, as I said before, you love to twists facts and leave out important information.
Try to the truth if you wish to lead someone to the Truth.
Rev Stephen Keenan wrote the 'Controversial Catechism'.
That wasn't what was given a stamp of approval.
You even have the wrong Archbishop.
The book with the imprimatur (approval) by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York:
'A DOCTRINAL CATECHISM'
subtitle: wherein divers points of Catholic Faith and practice assailed by Modern Heretics are sustained by an appeal to the Holy Scriptures the testimony of the ancient Fathers, and the Dictates of reason on the basis of 'Scheffmachers Catechism' by the Rev Stephen Keenan. |
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---Nicole on 11/17/08 |
MarkV..cont
Why aren't these things taught to the Church??....because the Church is ABOVE and FREE...Sarah's children...not Leah or Rachel's.
The Church has ENTERED INTO REST....WE are Complete IN CHRIST...
Complete=7
Rest=7
Perfct in Christ=7
AND Christ IS OUR LIFE....making it all so very wonderful.
He gave us REST....IN HIM....for now and or all eternity.
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---kathr4453 on 11/17/08 |
--Manny: **therefore they are among those whose sins have been washed by Christ's blood because they believed (had faith)**
--MarkV: **just because someone hears the word they are saved. They saw with their own eyes God working in their very presence and they did not have a heart to perceive**
Manny~MarkV: Brothers, you're both correct.
Anyone that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin(Rom.14:23).
MarkV you're correct in discerning that if we preceive with our own eye(doubt) we will not receive the Word and it shall just be as sin unto us. But Manny didn't say 'just because someone hears the word they are saved'. He said when they hear they believed by faith. |
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---Shawn_M.T. on 11/17/08 |
***How can Mary physically make Jesus when Jesus was at the foundation of the world?***
This question is insurmountable to those that insist that Mary's egg was used in creating Jesus.
The father the Son and the Holy Spirit have always existed, three in one and one in three.
The Word was made flesh(Jesus being that flesh) and Jesus's physical body was prepared by God(The Father) and was fully human(flesh) and came through the birth canal) and this human flesh
was miraculously conceived by Mary in the form of the embryo that became physical Jesus.
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---mima on 11/17/08 |
AND furthermore:
Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne,
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh,
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. |
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---kathr4453 on 11/17/08 |
Jesus was called the second Adam.
Now we know who made physical Adam.
And he theat made physical Adam made physical Jesus also.
To learn more about this read Hebrews 10:5 |
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---mima on 11/17/08 |
okay.
thank you alan, and kathr.
I am still wondering though, why so much emphasis place upon Mary? I just don't understand how a woman could be uplifted to the same level as our Savior.
Even Mary felt unworthy but still did God's will. Or she would not asked how or why.
Anyway, Is lose the right word to use here?
I mean, you can give it up, but who would want to?
I guess this goes hand in hand with free will, right? |
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---miche3754 on 11/17/08 |
Miche ... It is only the physical earthly human body of Jesus that Mary conceived (and so had a hand in creating)
I say "only" with some hesitation, because as well as His spiritual separation from God at the time of His crucifiction, it was Jesus' physical earthly human body that suffered physical torment on the Cross, for us. |
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---alan_of_UK on 11/17/08 |
MarkV, And how they TWIST Romans 9-11..stating the Church replaced Israel.
No where does Paul teach that any of us are JACOB....or the offspring of JACOB.
He would have to continue to clarify this through out scripture and doesn't. Only in Romans 9-11 is Jacob brought up....referring to the Promises to that NATION...when Jesus comes as KING.....fulfilling Zachariah 12-14, Matthew24-25 CLEARLY PROMISED IN Acts 1:6 and 7 , Joel 2, Jer 31, Eze 36, Isa 14 and so much more, that deals with Kingdom LAW much like OT LAW, and Sabbaths and New Moons...fulfilling Isaiah 66 as well. Paul/Peter/James/John, etc do not teach any of this to the CHURCH EVER!!! |
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---kathr4453 on 11/17/08 |
***How can Mary physically make Jesus when Jesus was at the foundation of the world?***
Miche....The WORD became flesh ....
In the OT, Jesus is known as the WORD..
The WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us.
AND He is STILL the Word of God....
Revelation 19:12-14
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns, and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Jesus was NOT in human form before the foundation of the world. there were NO HUMAN FLESH before the foundation of the world or Abraham or David, or Judah ... |
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---kathr4453 on 11/17/08 |
kath can your expound on this for me? I am curious of your thoughts on this, sis.
I found in Luke 3:23-38, the lineage Of Christ-through Joseph.
This is very interesting to me since the emphasis is put on Mary so much.
And she is refered to as the Virgin until -
Luke 1:26-28
But in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent of God to a city of Galilee, of which the name was Nazareth,
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee: [blessed art *thou* amongst women]. |
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---miche3754 on 11/17/08 |
That was very good Kathr. You stated that very well. I wanted Ken to see that but it seems he rather become a real Israelite and live as they did. Under the law.
The whole message of the gospel of Christ becomes meaningless. I hope he reconsiders but that should not separate us unless he wants to.
what I also noticed after reading all of Romans is that the Jews regarded the Gentiles very bad. The Jews were very proud they were the chosen people and that they had a Messiah and the Gentiles didn't.
They too separated themselves from all the rest. Pride.
In Christ there is no more division, for all those saved are baptized into one body in Christ. |
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---MarkV. on 11/17/08 |
Miche, The Covenant with Abraham is both Spiritual and physical.
The Spiritual seed...Like Isaac so are we...are Children of promise. Heavenly.
Those with the Heavenly calling are not promised LAND.
Matthew 2:18....Rachael weeps for her Children..... WE are not Rachael's children.
When Paul teaches Galatians,Romans 4 etc, he is teaching about the Church...those with a heavenly calling....never once brings up Jacob, or Rachael's children, but in fact uses Sarah and Hagar....
Paul further clarifies in Romans 9-11 there are 2 different groups Abraham's seed....by Promise...and Jacob's seed....the Elect Israel the NATION.
Paul again clarifies in Galatians, The New Creation AND the Israel of God. |
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---kathr4453 on 11/17/08 |
Manny, I will answer your quote. You said that just because someone hears the word they are saved. Have you not read, "Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: You ave seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land-the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day" Do you get it Manny? They saw with their own eyes God working in their very presence and they did not have a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear. In our case we don't see God as they did. Yet they could not see or hear. |
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---MarkV. on 11/17/08 |
Nicole, yes, be aware of Mark for he has the Truth.
That Truth is Jesus Christ.
I didn't say that Pius X defined the immaculate conception, but that when he wrote the letter to the Church, "it was the fiftieth anniversary of the definition of the immaculate conception."
You wrote it down as I did and you did not understand it. Pius X second encyclical appeared on Dec. 8, 1904. The Immaculate Conception was defined in 1854.
I believe you have little history of your own church Nicole and I would suggest for you to get educated on it.
Have you read the Reverend Stephen Keenan's (Controevrsial Catechism?")It had the stamp of Archbishop Hughes of New York. Very interesting. |
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---MarkV. on 11/17/08 |
kathr4453: "Deep stuff!!!"
"Oh, the depth of the riches..." (Romans 11:33) Yes, we can spend our whole lives studying Scripture and still find new pearls hidden inside - just as God wanted it. How can anybody not believe? Seek, and you WILL find!
And that's the point about Rev.12: there are four levels of meaning - riches upon riches! |
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---Luke65 on 11/17/08 |
(1)
MarkV, it is obvious that your knowledge of the way of salvation is "crooked".
If you have members of your church who "actually don't believe".. then you just proved your church is not that of God.
The people talked about in Hebrews and in Corinthians are members of the true church of God -- therefore they are among those whose sins have been washed by Christ's blood because they believed (had faith).
Again, faith comes from hearing -- and they heard the gospel straight from the apostles (therefore it was the true gospel).
(continued) |
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---manny on 11/16/08 |
kath I agree with you but I will even go further...
The blessing was not based upon physical seed, but spiritual seed.
The seed of Abraham, and so on and so on.
How can Mary physically make Jesus when Jesus was at the foundation of the world?
When Adam and Eve sinned, there became two seeds, the seed of Good and the seed of evil.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil fruit has seed. In Gods eyes we are his trees and we produce seed.
Is an egg seed? no. Kath this goes back to what you said about enmity between woman and serpeant. None is physical All is Spiritual. |
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---miche3754 on 11/16/08 |
Rich--
Thanks for returning to the simplicity of the Gospel!. Types and shadows are interesting and so is prophesy. But it is as simple as you say.
If you ,
EARNED it... you can lose it.
If it is a "GIFT... with thanksgiving, ACCEPT it! Continue to rejoice in it. God doesn't change His mind about the gifts He gives. |
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---Donna66 on 11/16/08 |
You did not do anything to earn your salvation. It was a gift of God, received by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9). Nothing I do keeps me saved. It is an act of God. Why would anyone think they could possibly do something to undo what God has done? |
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---Rich on 11/16/08 |
Luke65, the Woman in Rev 12 is Israel...clothed in the Sun=JACOB, and the moon under her feet=RACHEL. Again this WHOLE picture is referring to Israel...
Also please note the Prophecy given to Joseph in Genesis 49.....it says of Joseph..."from here is the Savior". It doesn't mean the Savior is coming from the tribe of Joseph...but the Savior of Israel, Romans 11, Joseph is a TYPE. Rachel will be the mother of Millions, also prophesied in Genesis, as contrasted from Abraham/Sarah's children..who WE are...
Also please read Zachariah 12-14....they will look on Him whom they pierced( Israel) ...as did Joseph's brothers who too betrayed him. Joseph is a TYPE of Christ.
Deep stuff!!! |
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---kathr4453 on 11/16/08 |
Miche ... Of course the Bible does not refer to mary's DANo where does it say that Mary contributed her DNA. They did not know about DNA then, nor did they know about aeripnaes, so those are not mentioned either.
You are very categoric about Mary being "just the vessel" Where does the Bible say this? |
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---alan_of_UK on 11/16/08 |
Miche, I hope you read what I put down. I wanted you to check how they didn't even mentioned Christ at all. Where in the world was He?..The quote came from Pius X in his second encyclical, it was the fiftieth anniversary of the definition of the immaculate conception.
His letter reveals the kind of mind he brought..
---MarkV. on 11/14/08
Be aware of MarkV. Note how he didn't give you a direct quote of Pius X or the name of the Encyclical Pius X wrote.
It was Pope IX who defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not Pius X.
He is vague because he knows he is twisting data and history to convey his agenda.
We all have been speaking about Jesus. |
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---Nicole on 11/15/08 |
Mark:-In your exhuberance to convince Mische you finally admit-TRUTH- That "SHE will crush His Head "Putting her-Mother Mary right back in Genesis 3:15 created by God Pure sinless Spotless Immaculate for the edification of all believers, who I hope many have Read.Dogmas are Holy spirit oriented.The rest you present are Historical facts and innuendoes .'Mary in the Burning Bush'!!!with the lords voice,which Moses recognised.History is wrong But you are right-Right!.Remember the word machinations and where they come from. |
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---Mic on 11/15/08 |
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