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Rapture Already Happened

Did the rapture take place in 70 AD or is it some future event?

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 ---Rob on 6/13/08
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Here's the truth about rapture.
Psalm 37:9-10,20,22,29,34,35-36 and matthew 5:5.
The wicked, unrighteous, evil will be taken out from the land but the righteous, those who are born again will inherit it. What happened in the days of Noah, he was a righteous man who fears God who vanishes? The evil and wicked people. If you have one tray of egg and 1 is rotten of course you will throw the bad one. The same is true thing is true.
Hope this will help in understanding the truth about rapture. Let's forget this doctrine of fear invented by man.
---Arnie on 4/12/09


I believe the Scripture says that at the Last Trumpet, Jesus will return and be seen by all, as lightening striking all over the world at once. The dead will be raised into new bodies and the righteous living will be 'caught up' with Jesus in the clouds. I think that the Kingdom of God will descend and be set up on his holy mount, after the battle of Armageddon. The elect (those alive) will first go through great tribulation, and so will many others, but those who take up the mark of the beast will not know tribulation so they won't have much of a clue what is happening and when Christ will return. All this happens after the Antichrist has deceived the nations.
---frances008 on 11/19/08


I believe the Scripture says that at the Last Trumpet, Jesus will return and be seen by all, as lightening striking all over the world at once. The dead will be raised into new bodies and the righteous living will be 'caught up' with Jesus in the clouds. I think that the Kingdom of God will descend and be set up on his holy mount, after the battle of Armageddon. The elect (those alive) will first go through great tribulation, and so will many others, but those who take up the mark of the beast will not know tribulation so they won't have much of a clue what is happening and when Christ will return. All this happens after the Antichrist has deceived the nations.
---frances008 on 11/19/08


****Ginger****

Hello Ginger! It has been a while since I have seen you share a post, on CB, and even longer since we have shared together in the Word of the Lord.

This is in response to your prayers, for Wisdom on Life~Flesh or Soul_10/17/08, that you posted in "Is Abortion A Political Issue" Blog.

I would enjoy sharing with you on this issue, with hopes of edifying us both.

Just click on my name to find the last Blog I posted at, and then post your response....and don't fret over the increased sorrow that come with increased knowledge, because through diligently enduring to walk-in the Knowledge of God's Word, all sorrow is turned into Joy.
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/18/08


I am sorry to tell you this, but there is not raptuer ,look it up! No wear in the word of G-D odus it say we all disapper! and to think so may cost you dearly. It is at THE LAST TRUMPIT that we will chaeng but we have Seven to go throu. Yeshua said 'it is onlt throu graet trials and TRIBULATIONS that you well enter Heaven."
---Aharon on 11/7/08




But the Dead doesn't partake until the last trumpet and no power is given unto them, they will be with God ALWAY'S in the New Jerusalem when it descends from the New Heavens...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 10/27/08


DDM, I'm not sure where you are coming from Here. The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST.

The second death, those will rise to condemnation. The reason it's called the second death, is because in Adam all died....that was the first death...

If they had chosen eternal Life throught the Gospel, there would be no second death here mentioned.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/08


***The taking "AWAY"(Rapture,ect.,ect.,ect.), Is "NOT" the "returning"("2ND COMING") to set up the kingdom for a 1000 years.***

DDM, I agree! Scripture teaches when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming....He is coming WITH His Saints. At His 2nd Coming EVERY EYE WILL see Him, and those who pierced Him will morn.

When He comes for His Saints in the Clouds, (where WE will meet Him) it will be altogether different.



---kathr4453 on 10/28/08


***
It doesn't make sense to me that God would come back and do all this twice.
***

correct which is why pre-trib fables started by men cannot be tied back to basic scriptures and ALL scriptures indicating Christ returns ONLY at the LAST Trump

to believe in antichrist pre-trib you must add to Gods Word to have Christ return and pickup self professing Christians and bring them someplace off the earth

DIRECTLY contradicts the ENTIRE OT where God PROTECTED HIS people supernaturally HERE ON EARTH

the ones who believe in pretrib usually believe all one must do is say Christs name and they're "saved"
---Rhonda on 10/27/08


kenrank: "One might also ask why Paul wrote: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP"

Exactly. I heard a hilarious denial by Grant Jeffrey, who's made a fortune with the Secret Rapture racket, that Paul couldn't have been referring to the last "seventh trumpet" of Revelation because Paul wrote his epistle before John wrote Revelation! He couldn't have known that! This from a man who confesses that the Bible is the Word of God, who knows the end from the beginning.

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine... They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
---Luke65 on 10/27/08


I think rapture its a future event.
---Ivah_Crichton on 10/27/08




Kathr: That still doesn't answer my question about whether this sevenfold light from the sun is supposed to be literal or figurative.
---Bobby3 on 10/27/08


The taking "AWAY"(Rapture,ect.,ect.,ect.), Is "NOT" the "returning"("2ND COMING") to set up the kingdom for a 1000 years.

The TAKING away, ISN'T a ressurection of ALL the DEAD, BUT a taking away of the living Bride(Church)of Christ & then those who refuse to take the Mark of the beast(AC)and get beheaded for their testimony of god's word then they are given white robes and "Return W/Jesus & the Bride after the Marriage supper to rule for the 1000 Reign of Christ, But the Dead doesn't partake until the last trumpet and no power is given unto them, they will be with God ALWAY'S in the New Jerusalem when it descends from the New Heavens...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 10/27/08


Noah/Lot were not taken from the earth, just protected in the day of wrath. Messiah said his return would be like that.
---kenrank on 10/27/08

Enoch foreshadows the translation of the church.

Noah foreshadows all who are saved through the tribulation...to enter the Millennial Kingdom reign.

The CHURCH will be caught up together in the clouds with Christ...returning with Christ and will reign and rule with Christ at this time.


Listen...

Rev 2: 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations,and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers...

Heaven will not be ruled with an Iron Rod!!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08


Mary. Even though the dead in Christ rise first, we all meet together in the air. It's all one happening but it has that order to it.
---john on 10/27/08


Mary>>doesn't make sense to me that God comes back to do this twice

That's a great point Mary. One might also ask why Paul wrote: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

At the last or 7th trumpet = the END. You consider these with the parable of the wheat and tares where the wheat and tares grow "together" until the end of the world (tares taken FIRST btw)...and quotes like us having to "endure till the END." And Matt. 24, the return AFTER the tribulation.

Noah/ Lot were not taken from the earth, just protected in the day of wrath. Messiah said his return would be like that.
---kenrank on 10/27/08


Hi everyone, I'm curious, if there is supposed to be a pre-tribulation rapture, why does it talk about in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 about the dead being raised first and then "we who are still alive" (New Century Version)following? It doesn't make sense to me that God would come back and do all this twice. Just wondering, thanks.
---Mary on 10/27/08


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bobby3, This is talking about the Kingdom Reign, when God fulfills His covenant to Earthly Israel.

During that time, a baby will die at 100...can you inagine!

Isaiah30:26Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Isaiah 30:18And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

19For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: ...
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08


**Kath, are you forgetting what the definition of Israel is? God chosen people.**

Yes, Ginger Israel is the beloved of the Father ( Romans 11 ) ....however the CHURCH is the bride of Christ.

You seen to be putting your own spin on what you think ISRAEL means.....Israel is not a definition, they are a People.



This is why you are so confused that you're going to have to hide somewhere in the desert. Nowhere does the NT Apostles teach such things concerning the Church.

The Church is HIDDEN with GOD in CHRIST!!!! Colossians 4:1-4.....
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08


Kath, are you forgetting what the definition of Israel is? God chosen people.
So yes there are two.
The old and the new. The physical and the spiritual. You are saying the same thing I am but you believe they are the same when they are not.
---ginger on 10/27/08


kath, the mystery is that it is the spirit not natural.
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Paul, Peter, and others talked about the cutting off of the disobediant Israel. That they will be cut off and God will replace them with a people who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Sister, maybe you should re study these books written with The Holy Spirit as your guild. It is the only way to be shown the truth. All things are now Spiritual not physical. Jesus's death took what was external and made it internal.
God bless you kath!!
---ginger on 10/27/08


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Ginger, blue too on this subject.

The CHURCH is not israel, but ONE NEW MAN, who is neither Jew or Gentile. Now that we have cleared that up, YOU are not Israel.

There is only ONE Israel...Jacob's descendents. Please don't spiritualize them away by trying to take their place of blessing....

Paul warned of two Gospels being preached in Galatains...HIS, the Mystery...and the accursed one....Kingdom NOW...Judiazers. Paul explains through out Galatians and never once says the church is Israel, also rebuking LAW being forced on the Church, NEW CREATURES in Christ. He ends the chapter by clearly distinguishing the New Creature/Creation....AND the Israel of God. He does not say the New Creature IS the Israel of God.....
---kathr4453 on 10/25/08


"that is the problem with those who don't believe in the deluge either...maybe they just thought Noah was speaking metaphorically too..."

Noah built an ark, so it was obvious that a real flood was supposed to happen. You're showing me an orange when we're talking about apples. The images expressed concerning the light of the sun and moon and the stars are figures of speech (and are to be understood as such). These types of references are commonly found in prophetic language, as one may easily discover by reading Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Joel.

Also, check Isa30:26. It speaks of the sun shining 7x brighter than normal. Is this to be taken literally?
---Bobby3 on 10/24/08


kath, sister, we have discussed this until I am just blue in the face, so to speak (lol).
There are two Israel's.
One is Spiritual and one is Literal.
The literal has not and will not follow God like they are suppose to.
The Spiritual Israel is US- Christians
We talked about the grafting and the lost being found. What part of this don't you get? Please tell me so maybe I can explain it better, or maybe someone here can explain it better.
If you had read my post sister, I said what you said about the mark. In the beginning we will be able to hide. We will have a place to hide. But when the mark comes, we're dead where we stand.
---ginger on 10/24/08


****The ones left that are true believers will have to hide from the beast. You and I both know we will not be able to buy or sell unless we take the mark. We will end up dying for our faith.****

And this is what the false KINGDOM NOW theology teaches. That they are Israel...that they are the real Jew....that they keep the sabbath...and believe they are the ones in Matthew who hope they don't have to take flight on the sabbath......trying to ESCAPE ...WHAT???...OH MY.....the WRATH OF GOD!!!! Satan is not the one who turns the moon to blood, and the sun to scorch....it is GOD!!!! Satan is not the one who can shorten these days either.

The day of HIS wrath is the Day of the LORD....
---kathr4453 on 10/24/08


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***when Jesus or Isaiah announced that the sun would be darkened or the stars would fall from heaven upon Earth, we shouldn't expect such things to literally take place (or that they literally have taken place in the past). ***

Bobby3...tht is the problem with those who don't believe in the deluge (flood ) either....lookewhat happened to them who laughed and mocked Noah...maybe they just thought Noah was speaking metaphorically too...


Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/08


***Read it then decide if the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was just a SMALL thing.***

Rob, the destruction of Jerusalem was not in 70AD, but 135AD. What took place in 135AD was much worse than 70AD.

The Temple was partially destroyed in 70AD...not Jerusalem.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/08


"btw, I don't see all scripture metaphorically that was Bobby3."

Whoa! When did I say that I think ALL Scripture should be taken metaphorically? I merely stated that, in certain places (especially those that speak of an impending a day of judgment), the language used by the prophets, by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, and by John in Revelation is less than literal. In other words, when Jesus or Isaiah announced that the sun would be darkened or the stars would fall from heaven upon Earth, we shouldn't expect such things to literally take place (or that they literally have taken place in the past). Please don't put words in my mouth.
---Bobby3 on 10/24/08


rob, I am not saying it is small, just not the only one through out history.
That will be nothing compared to what will happen in revelations. You and I both know this.
I am not saying it is insignificant. It is because how many time has Jerusalem defied God.
I am saying that in Revelations, the old Israel that is still being disobedient will be totally and forever punished.
The ones left that are true believers will have to hide from the beast. You and I both know we will not be able to buy or sell unless we take the mark. We will end up dying for our faith.
---ginger on 10/24/08


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Rob,

These last verses are a summary of all that has been said from Genesis to Revelation.

The word "outside the gate"....is actually WITHOUT/OUTSIDE the gate. Hebrews says Jesus suffered WITHOUT/OUTSIDE the gate.

Jesus is the Gate, the Door, the Veil we must enter, to enter into the New Creation.

The Tabernacle in the Wilderness is a perfect picture of Christ. In the Tabernacle you see the Gates, the Door leading to the Holy of Holies, THROUGH the veil. Cricified with Christ is the only way to enter.

Hebrews 10 say we enter through the Veil.

Outside..WITHOUT is the old creation....within is the New Creation. ARE YOU A new creation IN CHRIST?
---kathr4453 on 10/24/08


The vision given John of the events immediately proceeding, during, and the aftermath of the LORD's Day started in Rev.4:2 and ended in Rev.22:6. The remaining verses are simply a summation. As concerning 22:14 the verse speaks spiritually of the requirements for entry into the city as they pertain to the present. The "tree of life" in this verse represents symbolically a firmness of character empowered of Christ through a knowledge and understanding of Father and Son provided through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The "city" spiritually speaking, represents a place of righteousness, peace and joy within us that is guarded by waking or watch. Continued Part 2.
---Josef on 10/24/08


Part 2. A place within man, empowered of the Father, to embrace the privilege, desire and ability to love the Father and our fellow man without hypocrisy. To truly receive, acknowledge and appreciate the finish work of Jesus on our behalf is the strait "gate" through which we enter, and is man's only access into the kingdom of God, by His grace through His faith. Those without are those that either refuse to enter due to either the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, blatant unbelief or simply ignorance concerning the way. However, the verse can be Literally applied to the time period of millenial reign of Jesus, with the tree of life symbolizing His tangible presence and influence.
---Josef on 10/24/08


Kathr4453: A few replies ago you said "And to Rob, as long as you see scripture metaphorically, I can't answer your question to satisfy you." So this means your answer to my question should be literal.

I'm asking you for a literal interpretation to my question and you give me a metaphorical answer. You may think you answered my question, but you have just avoided it like you do to many others on other blogs. btw, I don't see all scripture metaphorically that was Bobby3. However, I do allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.
---Rob on 10/24/08


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Ginger: Are you calling the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD when the 2nd Temple was totally destroyed not one stone upon another never to be rebuilt and not to mention prophesied by Jesus himself a SMALL thing? Plus Jesus himself told the Pharisees in Matt ch23 that the judgment of all righteous blood is upon their generation. Have you read Josephus the Jewish Wars? Read it then decide if the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was just a SMALL thing.
---Rob on 10/24/08


MarkV: My question about the evil people refers to Revelation Chapter 22: Verse 15.

You said God's presence literally fills the New heaven and earth. However, I believe a closer read of Revelation Chapter 21 & Chapter 22 reveals that God's presence fills New Jerusalem. Think about it. God told Moses to build the tabernacle after the pattern in Heaven. The Holy of Holies where God's presence resided in the Old Testament was a cube. The description of New Jerusalem is a cube coming out of Heaven. New Jerusalem is another word for the New Covenant according to Galatians Ch4.
---Rob on 10/24/08


Rob, Markv answered that question and I also gave that same answer many months ago to you.

This book, Revelation, The Revelation of Jesus Christ,clerly states HE will shut out from heaven all wicked and unrighteous persons, particularly those who love and make lies. There is no middle place or condition. Jesus, who is the Spirit of prophecy, has given his churches this morning-light of prophecy, to assure them of the light of the perfect day approaching. All is confirmed by an open and general invitation to mankind, to come and partake freely of the promises and of the privileges of the gospel.

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/08


rob I understand what you are saying.
But, you have to look at it through the SPIRIT.
Have you seen God step in and completely destroy the ones who spilled the blood? No, it just starting. Look at the middle east right now through the Spirit and tell me what you see. There is much more going in Israel right now than the naked eye can see.
She is still catering to false gods. Trying to compromise. Do you really believe that that small thing atoned for all of the spilling of the saints blood? No, because if we look a little farther in history, Jerusalem fell again... To the muslims.
God has punished them many times, but we are talking about the ultimate punishment.
God bless you brother!!
---ginger on 10/23/08


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ginger: You mentioned that the 5th seal has not been opened. (Rev 6:9-11) You have souls under the altar that have been slain. Asking God to judge people for killing them. God says wait just a little longer. Compare this to Matthew 23:33-39 and Matthew 24:1-2. Where Jesus pronounces judgment upon the current generation of Jerusalem in His time for all righteous blood that had been spilled beginning with Abel. (Matthew 23:33-39) When will the judgment take place? In a little while, 40 years later, at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. (Matthew 24:1-2)
---Rob on 10/22/08


Kathr4453: Will you please just answer my question? Who are the "evil" people outside the gates of the city, New Jerusalem, in the New Heaven and New Earth as referenced in Revelation Chapter 22: Verse 15?

Please read all my previous posts starting on 10/15/08 before commenting because I have given alot of background information relating to Revelation Chapter 21 - Chapter 22 already.
---Rob on 10/22/08


The Other Rob: Don't worry.... I only post to this blog because I asked the question. All other blogs are yours and if I do post to another blog, I will use a different name.
---Rob on 10/22/08


rob, it is alright brother, I have lots of typo's, LOL.
Anyway to answer the question, no the rapture has not happend yet. We are still in the first part of revelations. Wars, and rumors of wars, sickness. The 4 horsemen are upon the earth right now.
Some will ask why do I say this?
Well they were not let loose on the entire earth. They were given a 4th of the earth.
Look at what is going on right now. About a 4th of the earth suffers from these. War, famine, sickness, death. We see it everyday, but it is not yet time. The 5th seal has not been opened yet.
---ginger on 10/20/08


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Rob, Rev. 21:21-22, and no where does is mention there is evil people outside the gates. verse 22, "But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. Several passages affirm that there is a temple in heaven (3:12, 7:15, 11:19, 15:5) but here, it is clear there is none in eternity. How can this be? The temple is not a building, it is the Lord God Himself. Revelation 7:15 implies this when it says, "He who sits on the throne will dwell among them." and in verse 23 continues the thought of no temple, except God and the Lamb. There is no need for a temple in which everything exists. The presence of God literally fills the entire new heaven and new earth (verse 3).
---MarkV. on 10/19/08


***This language, which speaks of an impending day of God's judgment, is to be taken metaphorically.***

You mean as opposed to Literally?

Now Peter does warn of those who teach such things....scoffers in the last days, saying where is the promise of His coming.

Is His Coming also metaphoric?

And to Rob, as long as you see scripture metaphorically, I can't answer your question to satisfy you.

Paul teaches in Ephesians,that in the DISPENSATION of the Fullness of Time , Christ will gather all things, in heaven and earth etc, That is yet future.

The earth itself is groaning waiting for this day...Romans 8
---kathr4453 on 10/18/08


Someone on this post is using my name. I wish they would put a number or something behind their name so there will not be any confusion reagrding who is who.
---Rob on 10/18/08


Kathr4453: You state "The New Heaven and Earth simply states nothing Evil will enter in..." Please read Rev 21:1-27 carefully. Rev 21:1 mentions there is a New Heaven and Earth. Then Verses 2-27 are describing New Jerusalem. Verse 27 states that nothing that defiles ("evil") shall enter it. The "it" is New Jerusalem. So, if there are "evil" people outside the gates of the city (Rev 22:14-15) and the only gates and city that Rev 21-22 has been referring to are the gates of New Jerusalem then these "evil" people MUST outside the gates of New Jerusalem in the New Heaven and Earth. Please explain how this can be from your view.
---Rob on 10/17/08


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Hi Ginger, Please read my previous posts below when I first asked the question about evil people in the new heaven and earth. I stated my case from Rev chapters 21-22. This last reference was a typo on my part. Which the moderators must have corrected.(thanks!) I asked other questions about Daniel 12, if you would like to comment on.

Anyone: Please answer my specific question from your view of eschatology with scripture to back it up. A plain reading of Rev 21-22 suggests that there are "evil" people in the New Heaven and Earth.
---Rob on 10/17/08


Bobby3: I'm a believer searching for the truth in a world of Christians that don't know the meaning of the text but can quote scripture like a bad joke. I include myself in this group too. So let's get out the scripture and try to have a reasonable conversation. Thanks for agreeing with me on some points, you are the first. Which do you disagree with, maybe we can have a rational and logical conversation.
---Rob on 10/17/08


Rob: Are you a preterist?

I agree with some of your points. The language used by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and by John in Revelation echoes that of the OT prophets. This language, which speaks of an impending day of God's judgment, is to be taken metaphorically. As you have mentioned, not a single star has never (nor will ever) fall onto the earth, for such an event would necessarily cause the complete and immediate annihilation of the planet.

I also agree with you in that several (but not all) of the events mentioned by Daniel, Jesus, and John have already taken place. Popular teaching on the end times often neglect the importance of what happened in AD 70.
---Bobby3 on 10/17/08


***In Revelation 22-22, there are evil people outside the gates of New Jerusalem. Who are these people, if all evil has been thrown in the lake of fire?***

Rob, I looked at Rev 21 & 22 and cannot find the verse you are referring to.

In the original creation, sin entered the universe first through Satan, who then tempted Adam & Eve. Obviously Satan was allowed to enter in....

The New Heaven and Earth simply states nothing Evil will enter in....

Is this what you are refering to...and you think this is not yet future?

Gosh if we are in the New Heaven and Earth NOW, I am really shocked!and disappointed!
---kathr4453 on 10/17/08


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rob, what Bible are you reading?
There is no Revelations 22:22.
Revelations chapter 22 stops at verse 21.
---ginger on 10/17/08


Kathr4453: I have not been indoctrinated by anyone. Quite the contrary. I used to be a futurist dispensationalist, until people could not answer my specific questions, even thou it is the most popular view today. And you are right, it is hard to cast away those indoctrinated false teachings of the futurist dispensationalist.

I could say the same about you as in it would take volumes for me to answer your questions. So, please just answer the one simple question I asked. I'm referring to your view of the future. In Revelation 21-22, there are evil people outside the gates of New Jerusalem. Who are these people, if all evil has been thrown in the lake of fire?
---Rob on 10/17/08


Rob, It would take volumes to answer your questions, however I do know where your questions have come from.

But I believe Rob, we had this conversation a few months back, and I went into great detail concerning many of these issues.

Would bringing them up again change your mind? I don't think they would.

I do know how hard it is once indoctrinated by a particular theology to just cast it aside and start all over with a blank sheet of paper and allow the Holy Spirit to teach.

If one cannot separate the CHURCH in scripture,and who the CHURCH is, and this being the DISPENSATION of GRACE, one will never be able to grasp where the rest fall into place.
NEXT
---kathr4453 on 10/17/08


Rob #2

We could go round and round like a cat chasing its tail, and never find any rest here, until you first realize the CHURCH is still here, and was not raptured in 70AD.

As long as the CHURCH is still here, and will continue to be here until she is RAPTURED, Daniel will make no sense to you as being futuristic, as well as Revelation 12...the REBIRTH of Israel and God making a New Covenant with them. Romans 11 has not yet happened for Israel....and Romans 11 is the very proof that Rev and Daniel are in the future.

The Fullness of the Gentiles are STILL coming into the CHURCH...(Gentiles are not coming into Israel as some think and teach).
---kathr4453 on 10/17/08


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Kathr4453: I realize you have not been spoon fed, because of your jewish background and I have read your view on many topics and they do not always follow what is widely preached. However, the majority of the church has been spoon fed. I respect your different view because you bring a new light to passages that others don't have. That is why I engaged you again on this topic.

I have allowed Scripture to interpret Scripture. From the prophecy (Daniel) to the fulfillment (Revelation) Please answer my questions in the blogs below from your perspective in a logical scriptural manner. Thanks.
---Rob on 10/16/08


I find it so interesting that those who hate the word dispensation actually teach it themselves.

If you believe there is a difference between OT and New.....like it or not...YOU are a dispensationalist!

If you believe a rapture took place in 70ad...YOU are teaching a form of dispensation, without knowing it.

Even Dispensationalists have various versions of Dispensation Theology. Even those are not all correct....anymore than Covenant Theologians know how to properly teach the different Covenants.
---kathr4453 on 10/16/08


Well, Rob, here you're wrong. I've never been spoon fed by the church, but hand fed by the Lord. As HE has taken me down the narrow path that leads to Life, He warned me those other broad paths lead to destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his(Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul brought us the Gospel according to the Mystery!!!

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
---kathr4453 on 10/16/08


Kathr4453/DDM: The real point I'm trying to make with all these posts is our journey with the Lord takes us down many paths and He holds our hand as He takes us to the next level of understanding. However, if we are not willing to search all of God's Word for the truth when opposing views are debated and are dogmatic about our view at the time, then we will never grow in the Lord.

Today, the church is spoon fed or force fed the dispensationalist view and 99% of the people don't even realize there are other views out there. All I can say is pray for wisdom and read God's Word closely because it all makes perfect sense. Please don't get hung up on taking everything literally.
---Rob on 10/16/08


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Let's compare some more Scripture:
Daniel 12:1 - Michael fighting a battle, Jacob's trouble, Daniel's people delivered

Rev 12:7-12 - Michael fighting Satan, Satan cast to Earth having great wrath, the woman protected in the wilderness


Daniel 12:2 - Those who sleep in the dust of the earth awake. Some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt

Rev 20:12-15 - The resurrection, the dead standing before God judged by their works. If the dead's name was found in the Book of Life, he got everlasting life. If the dead's name was not found in the Book of Life, he got the lake of fire, everlasting contempt.
---Rob on 10/16/08


Daniel 12:3 - The wise shine bright like the firmament and the ones who turn many to righteousness shine like stars forever.

Rev 21-22 - The next chronological event in Revelation after the resurrection of the dead is the New Heaven and New Earth. According to your view, everyone has been resurrected and in Heaven in their glorified bodies or thrown in the lake of fire. If someone is being turned to righteousness, then that means they must be currently unrighteous. But in your view there is no evil (unrighteous) in the New Heaven and New Earth. So WHO are these people in Daniel 12:3 being turned to righteousness? Could it possibly be the people outside the gates of New Jerusalem in Rev 22:14, who eventually get to enter the city through the gates that never shut? (Rev 21:25)
---Rob on 10/16/08


Mr Holmes(DDM): If the New Heaven and New Earth are literally "perfect" and no more evil, war, hatred and people dying of disease, then WHY are the leaves from the tree of life used for HEALING of the nations? (Rev 22:2) What is the purpose of healing if everyone has eternal life in the New Heavens and New Earth? Could it be that eating the FRUIT from the tree of life gives eternal life and since the leaves are not as nutritional as fruit the leaves only heal? So that would suggest that the nations do not have eternal life and might get sick in the New Heavens and New Earth. How can this be in your view?
---Rob on 10/16/08


DDM: Don't you realize the summaries in your Bible are actually commentaries by who produced/published your study Bible and not Scripture! Obviously, a dispensationalist produced the study Bible you read based on your (dogmatic) comments about the end times.
---Rob on 10/15/08


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If you interpret everything literally, how do you explain EVIL people in the New Heavens and the New Earth?

Rev 21:1 - New Heavens & New Earth
Rev 21:9-21 - Description of New Jerusalem (Bride of Christ)
Rev 21:25 - Gates of city remain open always
Rev 22:14 - Those who keep the commandments may enter through the gates
Rev 22:15 - Dogs/sorcerers/murderers/idolaters are outside the gates
Rev 22:17 - Spirit & BRIDE (inside the gates) say "Come!"

If the Church is the Bride of Christ and when Jesus returns for the Church at the end of time and judges all men and evil/hades/hell all thrown into the lake of fire. Then comes the New Heavens and New Earth (aka New Jerusalem after the 1000 year reign). WHO are the people (being saved) entering the gates in Rev 22:14 and WHO are the evil people outside of the gates of New Jerusalem if all has been destroyed and replaced by the New Heavens and New Earth?
---Rob on 10/15/08


Kathr4453: That's one of the major problems with Dispensationalism. You have to interpret everything literally. Take Isaiah 13 for case in point. This is the prophesy of the destruction of Babylon. (Isa 13:10-13) Did the sun/moon/stars literally not show their light? Was the whole earth literally punished for the evil of Babylon? Did the Heavens literally shake and the Earth literally move out of it's place (orbit)? If these DID NOT literally take place then WHY do you interpret Revelation, Matt 24:29, 2 Peter 3:10-12 LITERALLY?

There are other OT prophesies that speak of cosmic destructions, but they did not literally take place. Why do you and dispensationalists take this one prophesy literally?? When it is obvious he is using prophetic apocalyptic literature which is figurative not literal when you compare it against what Scripture has already stated.
---Rob on 10/15/08


One of the Holy Bibles(KJV) gives a summary of the writer's and date's and a few other things, and for the Book of Rev. it's dated "About 95 AD" which I tend to lean towards also.
No, to the "?"
My reason,
The AC DIDN'T set up his Kingdom for 7 yrs, the False Prophet DIDN'T cause ALL to receive a Mark(666)to buy, sell or trade & worship the beast or be BEHEADED,
Yahshua(Jesus) HASN'T returned for HIS 1000 rule W/the bride, the 144,000 & the BEHEADED who refused to worship the AC & DIDN'T take the 666.
If this already had happen God would be dwelling with us right NOW and there would be NO war, hatred, greed, ungodliness , ect. ect. going on.
Elementary, my dear Watson
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 10/15/08


DDM, I am not packing a bag to flee to the hills today, not unless I learn that the Pope has set up house in Jerusalem. I follow the instructions of Jesus in Matthew 24 which are very very clear.
---frances008 on 10/15/08


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Rob, if you believe the rapture of the Church took place in 70AD, then there would be 1000 years that followed with the binding of Satan. Seems like the evil RCC was erected at that time then leading to the dark ages. A reformation took place at that time, bringing the Gospel out of hiding.

We would all, according to your view be int eh New heaven and earth now by your calculations. I see no evidence of that at all. Evil is still with us...people are still dying of disease.
---kathr4453 on 10/15/08


There are two commonly accepted dates for the writing of Revelation. In the mid 60s or in 96AD. The best evidence for the 96AD date is hearsay from Irenaeus written in 180AD, 80 years after John supposedly wrote Revelation. What Irenaeus writes is something he heard as a boy. The statement is so ambiguous, scholars can not even determine if the writer was referring to seeing John in 96AD or if John saw the vision in 96AD.

I let the Bible interpret itself and to me it makes much more sense looking at 70AD rather than some time in the future. How much longer are we going to believe the Dispensationalist version. A biblical generation has already past twice. (1948-1988 & 1967-2007).
---Rob on 10/15/08


Rob, the only problem, well, not the only problem, but one very important issue is, John wrote Revelation in 95AD....25 years AFTER 70AD.
---kathr4453 on 10/15/08


Kathr4453: Good logical reasoning. What is the need of the 144,000 if the Church is here.

However, consider this:
If the Great Tribulation was the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, then the Church was not large enough to make an impact. So God sealed 144,000 (jews from all tribes) to spread the Gospel. Getting back to my original question. This is something to think about because many dismiss the importance of 70AD.
---Rob on 10/15/08


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If the CHURCH is still here during the Great Tribulatin, there would be no need for the 144,000, as they would also be included in the Church, as ONE NEW MAN, and no distinction would be made separating them from the church.

The 144,000 will be the witnesses on earth at that time...not the Church. If the Church is still here, there would be no need for the 144,000.
---kathr4453 on 10/15/08


Scapegoat-
So true. The New World Order (and One World Religion) is upon us. Those who dare believe in the existence of "evil", "hell" and only one faith leading to salvation are ridiculed, rejected. Even young children in our government schools are indoctrinated in moral relativism, eco-correctness and unconditional pacifism. It will get even worse for us "unevolved" Christians.

We see Christians in other countries suffering atrocities for their faith.

Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, Post trib...all can be backed by Scripture, so I don't know exactly when to expect the Lord's return. I pray to be found faithful in tribulation or The Great Tribulation, knowing that God will not give us more than we can bear.
---Donna66 on 10/15/08


Now I recognize you frances008, you like one of those who laughed at Noah and refused to get on the boat, God know's I've tried to invite you to the Marriage supper.
Do you know anything about Jewish weddings & the 7 days thats involved?
The 7 day's i'm in heaven with Jesus,The Bride given to him by God, I will cast my crown that has been given to me before his feet, JUST as the other's who have made it to the wedding.
At the end of the wedding, is when we return with the Lord to defeat the AC,FP & followers, an Angel of God bounds Satan and put's a seal upon it and Yahshua set's up his Kingdom for 1000 yrs.
AFTER the 1000 yrs. Satan is set free.
Rev. 20:7-10 for the rest...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 10/15/08


The rapture is a future event.
---Eloy on 10/14/08


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You try my patients women(frances008)

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what HOUR your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if THE GOODMAN of the house had KNOWN in what WATCH the thief would come, he would have WATCHED, and would NOT have suffered his house to be broken up.

44THEREFORE be ye also ready: for in such an HOUR as ye think NOT the Son of man cometh.

THIS ISN'T 2nd COMING that ALL SEE
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 10/14/08


31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36WATCH YE therefore, and PRAY always, that YE may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL these things THAT SHALL come to pass, and TO STAND BEFORE the Son of man.
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 10/15/08


DDM, actually I believe that the rapture will either take place after the Great Tribulation or after most of the Tribulation. I assume the Great Tribulation to be a time of tremendous suffering, through which everyone who endures to the end without taking on the mark of the beast will be greeted by Jesus as saints who came through the Great Tribulation mentioned in Revelation as the ones who go to Heaven together with the 144,000 elect.
---frances008 on 10/14/08


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