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Christians Supporting Israel

As a Christian, do you support Israel?

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Your interpretation completely destroys anything to do with these truths.

Paul NEVER calls the Church JACOB.... EVER
---kathr4453 on 7/29/08

Her interpretation has prophets backing it up. Your comments and belief are because you believe you are a Gentile. You may be the people that the scripture is talking about. But, your doctrine is false. Your context incorrect. You have no....not one prophet at your back
.
Heb 8:8 negates your stand.
He was married to one wife.
He was divorced to one Wife.
He will die to free this wife for Remarriage.
This is so simple you haven't seen it. Only GOD can unblind. You haven't asked yet.
---Trav on 12/6/08


"A CHOSEN RACE"

BELIEVERS, not FLESHLY Israelites, are God's chosen race. For flesh CAN NOT ENTER the Kingdom of God, YOU MUST BE "born again".

"a royal priesthood" BELIEVERS are God's priests today. 1 Peter 2:5-9 SAID that the Levitical priesthood is NO longer in EFFECT, and a NEW PREISTHOOD has been CHOSEN by the Lord.
---gracynluv on 8/1/08

hang in there against blind busybodies.
Give this a thought though. Thomas put his fingers in the wounds. Dead were resurrected.... Perhaps born again is actual as well.
Second...this royal priesthood is mentioned in old Test. Same people. The largest Lost parts of Israel. Mentioned in Heb 8:8.
You are probably of this people.
---Trav on 12/4/08


CHRISTians must stand with Israel (Judah) All that Christians stand for comes from where our Lord lived and died. Judah is our brother,Yeshua was born of the tribe of Juda of which nothing of the Priesthood was spoken.He was the first Christian.Ever wonder why the US has such an affinity for this little country,the size of Rhode Island and surrounded by enemies who want to "wipe it off the map"? We are of Joseph,son of Jaccob.But, hardly any of us know our Jewish/Hebrew roots.
---Danelle on 8/7/08


Gracenluv, as I explained before, maybe not to you, that Romans 1 is about how God had given enough knowledge of Himself to all people to where they are without excuse. Calivinism agrees with that. They don't come because they have no faith in God. They choose to live the way they do and love what they do. It is not until the Holy Spirit brings light to God's word that the person get faith. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith. God does not reach out to get something He desires. When He speaks it's done, yet He has no mouth as a human. God is not a man that He cries, or desires anything He cannot do of Himself. He has not arms are legs are eyes. So your statement that God wants something and cannot get it is invalid. God is Omnipotent.
---Mark_V. on 8/7/08


Yes, I support Israel and the current state of Israel. All beleivers in Yeshua will Scioned into the House Ben David King of Kings. We'll all be Echad with God eternally. (Ezekiel 36, Revelations 7 & 14)
---yochanon on 8/6/08




Mark I agree with you, BUT IT NEEDS to be clear, predestination, correctly and scripturally, means that God purposed salvation and eternal life FOR ANYONE who would accept his Son Jesus Christ, and DAMNATION for anyone who REJECTED Christ. But God NEVER purposed that anyone SHOULD reject Christ. Rather, "God DESIRES ALL MEN to be saved"(1Tim 2:4,6).

Unlike Calvinists going so far as to say that God chose PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS to be saved, and did so BEFORE they were even born, as IF to say they had no free will.

The condition "if you continue in.." has always been a part of God's calling and counsel, and man CHOOSES whether or not to fulfill that condition (Rom 11:22 Col 1:22-23).
---gracynluv on 8/6/08


Gracenluv, God does not make anyone sin is correct, He did give Adam an Eve and option. Obey, have eternal life, disobey and die. If God didn't want sin to enter. He would have kept them saved. He designed His plan with that option. He knew they would sin. He knew what He was going to do in His next decree. The decrees of God relate to all future things without exception. "He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11. You say there is no election, but Eph. 1:5 and many others say, "According to the good pleasure of His will" He chose us to be in Christ, (the believers). The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known.
---Mark_V. on 8/5/08


Mark V.

God does not make anyone sin, BUT HE DID GIVE US A FREE WILL!

First off, God does not predestine anyone to hell,(Like Calvinist THINKS) but He knew before time began WHO would ACCEPT Him and who would reject Him - out of their OWN FREE WILL.

Whether we obey GOD or not is left up to us as it was Adam and Eve. Yahweh tells us what is right and wrong, and warns us of the consequences if we disobey. We, like our first parents are free moral agents. The option is set before us to decide. It is up to us to make the right choices and reap the benefits or disobey and pay the penalty.
---gracynluv on 8/4/08


No Heavenly Calling Mike? No such thing as a Heavenly Jew or Gentile??...correct....because the Heavenly are no longer Jew OR Gentile, but ONE NEW MAN who is NEITHER.

Please get those OR's and ANDS in place!

Hebrews 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/08


Gracy, your doctrine totally defied and denies this truth. I'll stick to the Scriptures just as it is stated, Thank You.


15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

This is exactly what PAUL said not to do Gracy..... you keep doing it!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/4/08




Kathr4453,there is no such thing as a heavenly gentile or christian, Gods people are called by His name, Christ is a title not a name.
---mike on 8/3/08


GRACYNLUV:

Still, how would you react to a human parent who put his children in a room with a chainsaw and said "don't touch the chainsaw, you might get hurt"?
---StrongAxe on 8/3/08


Gracenluv, God does not have to test anyone to know something. When a person test someone, they are trying to find out something they don't know yet. Your example has holes from the very start, for our God, the One from Scripture knows all. "He is Omniscience." He didn't have to test Adam and Eve, He knew what choice they would make. He didn't make them sin, He knew they would.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/08


Kat,

As nation redeemed from bondage in Egypt by the hand of God, Israel of old served to FORESHADOW the new Israel of God redeemed from sin's bondage by the blood of Christ, the Lamb of God.

The Church now stands as that which Old Covenant Israel FORESHADOW as the True Israel. The Church stands in that place of FULFILLMENT as the pure and spotless Bride, the fruitful nation, the "heavenly Jerusalem," the "city of God," the "one new man" COMPROMISED OF BOTH Jew and Gentile, which alone shall receive all the blessings promised throughout the Old Testament by virtue of its relation to Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham.
---gracynluv on 8/2/08


The first thing to understand is that God did not originally create Adam and Even as sinners. He created them good, without a sinful nature and without sinful inclinations in their hearts.

When tested, they sinned by their OWN choice.

Thus, God cannot be blamed for original sin, because he originally created Adam and Eve morally good(Eccl 7:29), because of sin moral goodness vanished from the human heart and all of their descendants are thus born with a sinful nature. Because God has established things such that things reproduce AFTER THEIR KIND.

Since Adam and Eve were sinners, their children(US), are born after their nature, are also sinners. Job 14:4 says "who can make the CLEAN out of the UNCLEAN? Not one!"
---GRACYNLUV on 8/1/08


*****TODAY, in the Christian dispensation, God regards Christ's CHURCH as His CHOSEN POSSESION.*****

Gracy, Paul refers to this time as the dispensation of the spirit...not the dispensation of the Christian.

The Church was chosen, foreordained and predestined from before the foundation of the world. Jesus Christ is the church, so HE was foreordained from before the foundation of the world.

Everything from Genesis to Revelation points to JESUS CHRIST.

But that does not annul the promises made to Israel at the end of the Age.

ALL will be fulfilled in Christ...even His KINGSHIP and His Earthly Reign are factored in God's amazing plan of redemption.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/08


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Gracy, Your reference to these scriptures have to do with the first Adam....not Israel.

1 Corinthians 15:44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

As in Adam 1...earthly ALL die.

As in Christ will all be made alive!
Romans 5


There is no such thing as a Heavenly Jew!!!!!

Jesus didn't die on a cross so he could create a better, newer, more perfect JEW!
---kathr4453 on 8/1/08


"A CHOSEN RACE"

BELIEVERS, not FLESHLY Israelites, are God's chosen race. For flesh CAN NOT ENTER the Kingdom of God, YOU MUST BE "born again".

"a royal priesthood" BELIEVERS are God's priests today. 1 Peter 2:5-9 SAID that the Levitical priesthood is NO longer in EFFECT, and a NEW PREISTHOOD has been CHOSEN by the Lord.

The CHURCH, therefore, is spiritual Israel, the Israel of God TODAY. WE ARE a chosen people just as Israel of old was chosen. As Israel was God's holy nation, the CHURCH is God's holy nation today. Even as God called Israel to be a people of His own possession in the days of old, TODAY, in the Christian dispensation, God regards Christ's CHURCH as His CHOSEN POSSESION.
---gracynluv on 8/1/08


Acts 17:28-29

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being, as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Man's devices would bring Jesus down to our level, when Christ brings us up to HIS.
Old things pass away, behold ALL things become New.

Gentiles are not the offspring of Israel.

THATS why it is taught we are no longer Jew of Gentile, male or female, bond or free etc. It's soooooo simple!
---kathr4453 on 8/1/08


****And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.*****


Gracy, MOSES is a TYPE of Christ here in the OT, pointing to the DELIVER in Romans 11, when ALL Israel will be saved.......and judgement comes on Gentile World Power who have held her in bondage and persecution.

Yes, and Matthew Forshadows this future event.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/08


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Kat- "God never brought JESUS out of Egypt,"

You're the one that's refuting the Bible Kat,
Mat 2:15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might BE FULFILLED which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Jesus is repeating the history of Israel, point by point, and is overcoming where they failed. Jesus becomes the new Israel.

Here is the KEY: 1 Cor 15:46,47: "Howbeit that was [NOT FIRST] which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL, and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL.

I am a spiritual Israel, "a chosen race" (1 Peter 2:9). I have been elected, picked out, and set apart. this is what BORN AGAIN MEANS kAT!
---gracynluv on 7/31/08


"...because Israel is the WOMAN spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12."

Jeremiah 3:

But you have played the harlot with many lovers...Where have you not lain with men?...And you have polluted the land with your harlotries and your wickedness.

Revelation 17:

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
---Bobby3 on 7/31/08


Gracy are you denying the Deity of Christ.

It appears with these comparisons you may be mislead.

God never brought JESUS out of Egypt, because Jesus wasn't in bondage in Egypt...Israel was.

Jesus is also the seed of David, but that seed referrs to His Flesh, not His Godhood.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of the Father. The SEED that was overshaddowed in Mary's womb was GODS's not Abraham's.

We are heirs BY FAITH ...the Faith of Abraham...not the flesh of Abraham. This was the Point Jesus was trying to tell the Pharisees in John 8...He said "Before Abraham was I AM......
---kathr4453 on 7/31/08


The Nation of "Israel" is called:
1) "My son"(Ex4:22)
2) a "vine"(Ps80:8)
3) the "seed of Abraham",(Is41:8)
4) God's "servant", (Is49:3)
5) "My son" that God "brought out of Egypt."(Ex4:21-22 Ps.80:8)

Jesus is called:
1) "My Son" 2Pet 1:17
2) The "vine" Jn15:1
3) the "seed of Abraham" Gal 3:16
4) "servant" Matt12:15-18
5) "My Son" God "brought out of Egypt" Matt 2:15

"Israel" was one man, and his heirs became the nation of "Israel".

Jesus(Israel)is one Man, then His heirs are ALSO Israel.The OT and the NT is centered inJesus,not Jacob!
---gracynluv on 7/29/08


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The Nation of "Israel" is called:
1) "My son"(Ex4:22)
2) a "vine"(Ps80:8)
3) the "seed of Abraham",(Is41:8)
4) God's "servant", (Is49:3)
5) "My son" that God "brought out of Egypt."(Ex4:21-22 Ps.80:8)

Jesus is called:
1) "My Son" 2Pet 1:17
2) The "vine" Jn15:1
3) the "seed of Abraham" Gal 3:16
4) "servant" Matt12:15-18
5) "My Son" God "brought out of Egypt" Matt 2:15

"Israel" was one man, and his heirs became the nation of "Israel".

Jesus(Israel)is one Man, then His heirs are ALSO Israel.The OT and the NT is centered inJesus,not Jacob!
---gracynluv on 7/29/08


Gracy, with your understanding of Jacob, you completely sabotage Romans 9-11.

I KNOW God called Jacob Israel.....because Israel is the WOMAN spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12.

Your interpretation completely destroys anything to do with these truths.

Please re-read Romans 9 concerning Jacob and Esau. In other words those who believe as you, deny any promises given to JACOB which means ISREAL and all prophecy concerning ISRAEL ALONE. Isaiah 14 for one.

Paul NEVER calls the Church JACOB.... EVER
---kathr4453 on 7/29/08


But as, in the OT, the name Israel was first applied to ONE MAN(Jacob) - and then to his OFFSPRING, so in the NT the same principle applies. "The seed" is Christ, and Paul then tells his Gentile converts "And if ye be Christ's, THEN ARE YE Abraham's seed." Gal 3:29.

So the name "Israel" not only applies to the True Seed, Jesus, but also the BELIEVERS IN Jesus become part of "the seed." The true Christians are now God's Spiritual Israel.

Paul continues to drive this point home throughout his writings IN Gal 3:6-7
saying that if one ONLY has the OUTWARD appearance of being religious without being CHANGED IN THE HEART, then the circumcision of the Jew MEANS NOTHING.
---gracynluv on 7/28/08


Kat..
The first time the name "ISRAEL" is used in the Bible is in Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing, the angel said "WHAT IS YOUR NAME?" and he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called NOR MORE Jacob, but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled with God and with men and HAVE PREVAILED."

So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a SPIRITUAL NAME. Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his character. The name Jacob MEANS DECEIVER. So the name change symbolizes his transformation in CHARACTER.

---gracynluv on 7/28/08


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even in doing so, they are only following the thora, an eye for an eye. they have reason. how many American children where murdered by Sadam houssein before the US dropped bombs on theirs? Now do not get me wrong, personally i think the invasion and anihilation of that dictator was a good thing. nevertheless you are measuring with two weights. when 11 september came the US invaded Pakistan to destroy the taliban,that was a good thing as well, when every day innocent jewish children die, Israel has to smile nice and say "Thank you" as it was in hitlers days. To me, Israel should even hit harder. for the only way for the jews to ever get peace is by tottaly destroying them, however the jews are to humain for that.
---Andy on 7/28/08


kathr4453 - "Paul teaches...we are...no longer Jew OR Gentile..."

Let's look at this passage (Gal 3:26-29):
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Messiah Yeshua. For all of you who were baptized into Messiah have clothed yourselves with Messiah. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Messiah Yeshua. And if you belong to Messiah, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

What does Rabbi Paul mean when he writes that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free?
ANSWER: All who have joined themselves to Israel's Messiah, share a new equality in Him.

Part 1
---AG on 7/26/08


#3

In the OT, a Gentile AKA: foreigner, who joined themselves to Israel were called proselytes.

Ruth is not about the Church or a type of Church, but about Gentiles who enter the Earthly Kingdom at the end of the Tribulation period. The LAND never belonged to Ruth, but to Naomi a type of Israel, and it will be restored to them again .


Those who come to Christ today in the Church, do not have to become a Proselyte or join themselves in any way to Israel to be saved or inherit any land or salvation as Herbert W. Armstrong Church of God 7th Day teaches.

Hes trying to climb over some other way.

The only way is through CALVARY.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/08


No Kat, I don't belong to 7th Day, the true Church is not a denomination. It is a chosen people "called out" of many nations unto service to the Lord. To be sure, God knows who are His.

And just because certain subject I pointed out agrees with certain denomination, does not change the Fact that it is TRUE based on the BIBLE and the Israel History.

Many in the congregations are offended by God's Word and they fight against it with a vengeance. Denominations are not the end all in salvation, and simply taking the name of Christ doesn't give one salvation. Salvation is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. When we truly have it, we will not walk in the dark, we will be guided into the truth of the Word.
---gracynluv on 7/24/08


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Kate, before u begin your study, pray to our Father, for his spirit to guide u through the scriptures with an open spiritual eyes regarding this subject.

I don't know if u are familiar with Ezekiel.

Chapter 23-24 is about Two sisters:

AHOLA: who is described by how the NORTHERN kingdom of Israel committed religious adultery with the Assyrians before they conquered and took them away, making them "the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel" Eze 23:5-7,9-10

AHOLIBAH: referred to Judah's 'harlotry' Eze 23:11,17,22-24

"Samaria is Aholah" refers to the kingdom of Israel's capital city Samaria and "Jerusalem is Aholibah" refers to the kingdom of Judah's capital city Jerusalem. Eze23:1-4
---gracynluv on 7/24/08


#2
In order for Naomi to be restored to her family's land, her nearest kinsman (actually the kinsman of her late husband) would have to be willing to fulfill the requirements necessary to transfer the title deed of the land so that the land would be released by the current renter and returned to the original owner or family.

In the case of Boaz, there was one other relative who was a closer kinsman than himself, so by law he had to be made aware of the situation and given the opportunity to function as kinsman-redeemer. In this case the nearer kinsman declined and Boaz was able to function in that role.



The Plot thickens!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/24/08


gravynluv - could you expound on the 10 lost tribes? i don't understand.
---kate on 7/24/08


****In accepting the God of Israel, Ruth FORESHADOWS the gentiles becoming a part of spiritual Israel, the church.****

A closer at Ruth will reveal Ruth first pledges her loyalty to Naomi, Then Ruth is willing to put herself under Boaz' authority, Boaz blesses Ruth and she in turn is able to help sustain Naomi until that time when Boaz acts on her behalf as kinsman-redeemer.

Looking at the book as a prophetic type or example, Naomi would represent Israel, Ruth would represent the sheep Gentiles of the Tribulation period, and how Gentiles treat the Jews during this time(See Matthew 24-25.) Boaz would represent Kinsman-Redeemer, and Orpah would represent the goat Gentiles - who turn their back on Israel.
---kathr4453 on 7/24/08


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'--it is proven that these freedomfighters deliberately hide in schools so that whenever Israel revendicates, inocent children will die to ghet some bad publicity for Israel.---'

I was talking about the case in recent years where Israel told them flat out 'you killed our children, so we are going to kill your children', and if memory serves me correctly that is what they did. They were not looking to kill hidden terrorists, they were looking for 'retribution'.
-
---obewan on 7/24/08


Gracy, Are you Church of God 7th Day, affiliated with Herbert W. Armstrong?

I see no difference between what you are teaching and what he and his followers believe.

If not, would you please tell me who you are affiliated with.

Thanks!
---kathr4453 on 7/24/08


A How interestingly Obewan, I mean the entire Iraque war was based on lies from the house, and still you say Israel intentionally murders innocents, whilst americans do such things only by mistake. Then you dont know the palestinians. they are the most vicious kind of people who have been drinking anti-semitism with the breastfeeding of their mothers. it is proven that these freedomfighters deliberately hide in schools so that whenever Israel revendicates, inocent children will die to ghet some bad publicity for Israel. Palestinians sacrifice their children so that Israel would be destroyed.
---andy on 7/24/08


"the Jews" (which specifically means "Judah-ites", or descendents of the patriarch Judah)
---StrongAxe on 7/23/08

This is what I've been saying along!..Amen StrongAxe! The Jews are from the tribe of Juda(4th son of Jacob/Israel)

Not all 12 of Israelites are Jews, ONLY the tribe of Judah, which also consist of Bejamites and some Levites! The Kingdom of David are Jews.

The tribe of Joseph/ Ephraim and Manasseh, the Northern Kingdom are called Israel, consist of the 10 Lost tribes.
---gravynluv on 7/23/08


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StrongAxe, you are correct. But, that isn't my point. I am saying that some get bias information about another's faith and run with it as fact.

I can't tell Baptists what they believe in or do not believe.

I don't know because I am not Baptist.

If I want to know something about the Baptist, I will ask a Baptist, not my Priest.
Only a Baptist and disclaim a statement of belief from another Baptist.

How can I jump into the debate using my Priest's as my source?
What do we know about their beliefs?

But, Protestants do this all the time concerning Catholic's Beliefs. They won't even go to the Catechism as their source.

Because Pastor Bob knows more about the RCC, than my Priest or the Catechism!
---Nicole on 7/23/08


Hosea 4:6 is talking about Israel..the 10 Lost tribes.But even though God exiled Israel, and even though Israel lost its identity, the Lord PROMISED to gather THEM AGAIN, through the fullness of the Gentiles.

You will find me, says the Lord, and I will REVERSE your EXILE. I will gather you FROM ALL NATIONS , and from all the places to which I have banished you, says the Lord. [Jer 29:14]

The House of Israel will be REDEEMED and REUNITED WITH THE HOUSE of JUDAH just as the prophet Ezekiel said on 37:15-22, through FAITH and ACCEPTING Jesus as the Messiah

Paul said it perfectly Until the fullness of the Gentiles (Ephraim/Israel) being called not my people, My people) then ALL Israel shall be save.
---gracynluv on 7/23/08


Nicole:

When in doubt, do not rely on human translations (all of whom show their translators' biases), but rather on the original scriptures.

In the Hebrew version of 2 Kings 16:6, the word used is "Ha-yehudim", which means "the Jews" (which specifically means "Judah-ites", or descendents of the patriarch Judah)
---StrongAxe on 7/23/08


..the word Jew is used...2 Kings 16: 5-6.- Kathr453

Not in my Bible. No word 'Jew' found.

Why do you go to Protestants to find out about other religions or denominations?

They are your source for your Catholic information as well. Stop it, they don't know what they are talking about.

Go to a Russian for Russia's culture. You won't know the real Russia's culture from Mexicans.

Jewish News of Greater Phoenix: Jews vs. Israelis: an ideological struggle

The 10 scouts were Exodus Israelis, Caleb and Joshua were also Genesis Jews. Caleb looked back to Abraham. Today, we need Israeli- Jewish leadership which will look back to Caleb.

Rabbi Shlomo Riskin is the spiritual leader of Efrat, Israel.
---Nicole on 7/23/08


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In accepting the God of Israel, Ruth FORESHADOWS the gentiles becoming a part of spiritual Israel, the church. "Ruths inability to do anything to alter her estate typifies absolute human helplessness (Rom. 5:6),

By the way the name Ruth means "mercy." The story shows that Gods grace and mercy extend beyond Israel to include ALL peoples.

It is also AMAZING to learn that Ruth was REDEEMED on the day of the Pentecost, the BIRTHDAY of the Church(ACTS:2)

This book is viewed as prophetic of the Church, which was "hidden" only to be revealed by the spiritual eyes in the OT!
---gracynluv on 7/23/08


Quote:
Most people think that Israel and Jews are the same. The word Jew is a nickname for Judah. The first time in all the Bible the word Jew is used Israel is at war with them! Read it with your own eyes in 2 Kings 16: 5-6.
Unquote.

Stated by Newswatch Magazine..
This magazine, a Publication of the Church of God Evangelistic Assn., features articles in doctrinal nature to "Restore Knowledge of God" because "My people are destroyed (cut off) for the lack of knowledge: because thou (Christians) hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be NO PRIEST to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children" (Hosea 4:6).

WRONG ANSWER TO THE CHURCH!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/23/08


The CHURCH was not revealed in the OT....it is revealed in Christ alone....through CALVARY.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/0

The OT did forshadowed the Church, Kat! Have you read the Book of Ruth?

Ruth, a Moabite, in her loyal dedication to Naomi (her widowed mother-in-law), after her own husband dies returns with Naomi to Bethlehem where she ultimately marries Boaz, a kinsman-redeemer who is the hero of the piece.

Boaz, is a foreshadowing of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. Who's willingness to pay the complete price (4:9) foreshadows Christs full payment for our salvation (1 Cor. 6:20, Gal. 3:13, 1 Pet. 1:18, 19)
---gracynluv on 7/23/08


****Paul was, by ancestry, of the tribe of Benjamin. He was religiously a Jew of Judah. *****

WAS is correct....what WAS is no more.

Paul teaches us that our history in Adam 1 ended at Calvary...our old man was Crucified with Christ..dead as a door nail. So, now we are raised NEW Creation. Our old Adam died and anything connected to Adam, including any of those connected with Israel or Gentiles not connected at all is this wonderful message.....we are now Connected to the Risen Christ.

We now life by the Faith of Christ, not by the incomplete faith of OT Israel, who only saw in shadows of things to come.

SO...stop hiding in the shadows and come into the LIGHT of the Glorious Gospel of salvation.

---kathr4453 on 7/23/08


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******How is it that while all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews?****

It depends on your meaning of Jew. Now Mormons believe they are all Jews and anyone who is not Mormon is a dirty gentile.

I hope you are not using this same idea yourself.

The only scripture I know says... not all Israel is Israel but in Isaac will thy seed be called.

Galatians says...Like Isaac was so are we.... children of PROMISE WOW!!!NOT Children by tribal heritage.

Isaac was a miracle, while Abraham & Sarah were past age. Sarah was BARREN..the Barren woman has more children then ..WOW!!!

We are Abraham's spiritual Children....having nothing to do with any flesh...any TRIBES of Israel..etc.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/08


Galatians 4:27-29

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not, break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Isaac was B/4 Jacob renamed Israel came into existance.

THE CHURCH is GOD BORN, and a Mystery. children of Promise...but Promised to who?

Promised to Jesus Christ that's who!!!! WE are BORN of the Spirit of the Life of Christ in us....ONE BODY, and CHRIST is the HEAD. HE is our Life!.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/08


Paul was, by ancestry, of the tribe of Benjamin. He was religiously a Jew of Judah.

Judah had TWO MEANINGS. It meant ancentry, people DESCENDED from Judah, but it also meant those of the KINGDOM of Judah, which was composed of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (and part of Levi). The religion of the Kingdom of Judah was "Jewish."

How is it that while all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews?

In I Kings chapeter11 God gives the reason for the SPLIT of the Nation of Israel into TWO SEPERATE 'KINGDOMS' around 897-890 B.C.
---gracynluv on 7/23/08


Gracy, maybe you should read the New testament and learn what Paul teaches about the CHURCH. He does not teach what you are teaching....that the church is the New Israel... He teaches the opposite...that we are a NEW Creation...no longer Jew OR Gentile...but ONE NEW MAN IN CHRIST.

Jesus is not Israel...Jesus is GOD. Stop bringing Jesus down to an earthly limited less then God entity.

As long as you try to FIND YOURSELF in the OT, you will be chasing rabbit trails leading nowhere.

Find Yourself in the Risen Christ. There you are hidden with God in Christ.....not in misplaced verses taken out of context in the OT.

The CHURCH was not revealed in the OT....it is revealed in Christ alone....through CALVARY.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/08


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No Kat I am not an SDA.

True that Paul is a Jew from the TRIBE OF BENJAMIN.

1 Kings 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled ALL THE HOUSE OF JUDAH, [WITH THE TRIBE OF BEJAMIN], an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, TO FIGHT AGAINST THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL..

AGAIN I JUST POINT OUT Judah and Israel are TWO DIFFERENT Kingdom All together BUT they are All Israelites!

Stop refusing the truth Kat!

Maybe you should start reading the OT, TO HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING what Christ and the apostles are saying, because truly you cannot understand the truth of God and the plan of God unless you study the whole Bible as the Word of God.
---gracynluv on 7/23/08


****Kat, I ALSO Said: "Jew" is merely a nickname for "Judah." Hence, it applies to the ONE nation, or House of Judah ONLY - never to the house of Israel. ****

OK Gracy, I get it...you're SDA. Now I understand why we are not in agreement with anything. SDA's believe only Judah is a Jew.

Paul called himself a Jew, and He's from the tribe of Benjamin.

Jesus wore a crown saying KING of the JEWS, and that was not just limited to any particular tribe.

Otherwise it would read King of the Tribe of Judah Only.

To the JEW first does not mean to Judah ONLY and then Gentiles.

The Gospel is preached to ALL SINNERS, including the tribe of Gad, Reuben, Simeon, etc, etc, etc.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/08


Josef, God bless you too.....

It's so sad that so many today are taught these false doctrines all leading really to anti-Semitism....that has taken Satan hundreds of years to lay these bogus foundations...knowing his time is short, wanting to take as many with him as possible.

RATHER then finding who WE are in Christ, the CHURCH, a NEW Creation, and not the New Israel. Jesus is not ISRAEL, He is GOD. No scripture teaches the Church...Christ Himself) is the New Israel. Bringing Jesus DOWN to our level ......Just extra Biblical mumbo-jumbo.

God Bless!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/22/08


frances ... I have never said that "born-again Christian" is a wrong statement. I have said it is tautology

I don't understand why you bring in evolution ... that issue is there whether one calls oneself a Catholic, "Methodist", or "Pentecostalist".
We all have to beleive in the Bible and God the Creator.
But for some that does not necessarily preclude some form of evolving as part of God's way of creating the world.
Elsewhere you will see a blog where someone says "That is obviously metaphor" ... where to me it is clearly NOT metaphor. And thus on many issues, we may have different perceptions of the same Truth
---alan_of_UK on 7/22/08


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Alan, out of your own mouth you condemn those who are not born again...by saying that born again Christian is a wrong statement because born again means Christian. You cannot be a CHristian and not born again. But what does born again entail. I believe it entails a belief in the Bible and a rejection of anything that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. In other words you cannot be a Chrsitian and an evolutionist. Either you are born again and believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that the Messiah was predicted in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is the Word of God and the Truth, or you don't and you are not born again.
---frances008 on 7/21/08


Kat, I ALSO Said: "Jew" is merely a nickname for "Judah." Hence, it applies to the ONE nation, or House of Judah ONLY - never to the house of Israel.

2kings16:1-:6
"Rezin king of Syria [the ally of Israel, fighting with Israel AGAINST Judah] recovered Elath to Syria, and DROVE the JEWS from Elath" .

The FIRST place in Scripture where the name Jew appears, the Jews were AT WAR AGAINST against ISRAEL! They are of a different nation altogether. They are, individually, children of Israel. But they do not have that national title - house of Israel.
---gracynluv on 7/16/08
---gracynluv on 7/21/08


That's it Alan, bring out the humor. I am never angry at a brother or sister, I am shocked, surprise, amazed, and only one time I was mad at someone. I have since forgiven him in my heart. There is so much to be thankful for. We are so blessed that we can breath, lots to eat, a home, family and lots of brothers and sisters in the Lord. It's a wonderful time to be alive.
---Mark_V. on 7/21/08


Mark I am not angry.

But you clearly are angry.

God bless you and deliver you from yuor anger
---alan_of_UK on 7/21/08


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---I don't entirely agree about everything regarding the US (we're no saints either),---

Cathy: I never meant to imply the US is without blame. I agree we are no saints either. What I meant is that if we kill women and children in a bombing raid it is usually because we either hit the wrong building OR had sloppy intelligence reports. If Israel kills innocents sometimes it is intentional. I also think the New Testament/Jesus' view on 'retribution' is different than and overrides the Old Testament guidelines.
---obewan on 7/21/08


Obewan - Interesting point. I don't entirely agree about everything regarding the US (we're no saints either), but Israel's methods have not gone unnoticed because they are obliterating certain peoples and places. And you're right, it's based on the tenet that an eye gets and eye. Hmmm, interesting.
---cathy on 7/21/08


Kat, I would just like to say that I personally understand the depth and meaning of your words and the understanding that you are attempting to bring forth in your posts. I agree with you 100% concerning them. Bless you beloved, and your efforts.
---Josef on 7/20/08


kathr4453 - "We need to STOP comparing ourselves to OT Saints."

We are not comparing ourselves the OT saints when we study the OT. The Word was "made flesh" and was a "prophet unto Moses". These expressions are meaningless without understanding our OT forefathers. Without this understanding we cannot fully understand Christ. Even NT Saints studied the OT scriptures to show themselves approved.

We are instructed not to spurn the old or the new for Jesus said:
"...every expert in the law who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his treasure what is NEW AND OLD." - Matt 13:52
---AG on 7/18/08


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Alan, I sure wish you get over getting angry. It is a wonderful day to be with the Lord. Just taking a deep breath of fresh air is a blessing to all of us. Many things in life will not be as you would like them to be, there is reasons why, and many times they have a good justification but you won't see it. Other times you will be right in that many do it to hurt others. I like your questions but don't be angry if they don't fit your understanding. Just give Scripture to back up whatever subject it is and this way someone can come back to you. At the end of the day, God has blessed us for learning more about Him.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/08


Alan, I believe Elder gave a good explanation why people were called Christian. Ritah gave an explanation of why she uses the word. All through history the word convert was used by the RCC. You converted to the Rcc, then you convert to Christ through baptism, then you were a Christian. The word born again disappeared under that system. No regeneration, no born again. The reason I use it is because Christ used it. It is important that we indentify ourselves to others as born again Christians otherwise they will think we just attend a denomination and that is it. But many attend who are not born again. Many burn churches and the papers call them Christians. In the name of Christianity, many wrong things are done.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/08


Yes Alan, I know what you mean and I'm one of the guilty ones by using the term here. I think it comes from my typing fingers as automatically as it comes from my mouth in conversation when people ask why I do or don't do certain things. I feel that, when speaking to non-believers the phrase is better than saying "because I am a Christian" because most non-believers think that the word Christian applies to anyone who attends any kind of church and we all here know that that is not so. Saying 'born-again Christian' gives the opportunity for them to ask "What do you mean" and then the opportunity to explain and possibly witness.
---RitaH on 7/18/08


Rita ... It was in the mid 50's for me, and yes the word was converted.
I don't mind the se of the word born again when talking to someone about our faith ... as you say it explains it.

But what I don't like is it's constant use here by a few who use it to show that they are a "born-again Christian" as opposed to mere normal Christians such as the rest of us.

In this company, no Christian should need to use the words adjectivally.
---alan_of_UK on 7/17/08


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So true AG! Judaism is NOT the religion of the Old Testament Scriptures. Judaism is plainly and simply the religion of the Jews -- a religion manufactured by their own ingenuity.

The Jews of Roman times had appropriated the name of Moses as the author of their religion -- but in actuality, they had rejected Moses. Jesus said: "Had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me ... but ye believe not his writings" (Jon 5:46, 47). The Jews used the name of Moses, but they didn't practice what he commanded.

In effect, Judaism was a man-made religion! Jesus said that they were "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7).
---gracynluv on 7/17/08


I must also add that Paul was raised under Rabbinical Judaism which is burdensome and decidedly different than the religion of the Moses.
---AG on 7/16/08

So true AG! Judaism is NOT the religion of the Old Testament Scriptures. Judaism is plainly and simply the religion of the Jews -- a religion manufactured by their own ingenuity.

The Jews of Roman times had appropriated the name of Moses as the author of their religion -- but in actuality, they had rejected Moses. Jesus said: "Had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me ... but ye believe not his writings" (Jon 5:46, 47). The Jews used the name of Moses, but they didn't practice what he commanded.
---gracynluv on 7/17/08


AG, God has dealt with our HEART at Calvary.

WE are a NRE CREATURE in Christ. OT Saints, although they looked forward to the Cross, died without the Promise...the Promise is the Indwelling Holy Spirit. As you see, the New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus Rose from the Dead, and stated before He ascended to Heaven....I will send the Holy Spirit.

WE are baptized wit Fire.....that FIRE burns away the chaff.....our flesh. Chaff is the outside of the seed. Resurrection life comes out of Death, and we re raised up with Christ...a New Creature.

We need to STOP comparing ourselves to OT Saints. We grow up into Christ, and are measured BY HIM alone!
---kathr4453 on 7/17/08


kathr4453 - "David as delighted as he was, sinned horribly, adultery, murder, etc....Jesus came to bring POWER over SIN in our lives."

I don't understand you rational. Are you suggesting people with faith in Christ don't sin? Paul was a pretty good follower of Christ yet he considered himself the chief of sinners.
David's errors are not a reflection of the Father or His instructions. David's sin, as with anyone's sin, is a reflection of the evil desires within his heart.
---AG on 7/17/08


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As you read the book of Hosea, you will see that God used the name Ephraim as a synonym for the house of Israel many times. This usage established the tribe of Ephraim is predominant tribe in the house of Israel. Because Reuben defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph. Although the birthright actually belonged to Joseph, Jacob ADOPTED the two sons of Joseph and made them equal heirs with Reuben and Simeon, his first and second-born sons . That is why Paul referred to the adoption as belonging to the Israelites and coming to the Israelites, including His predetermined plan to adopt the Israelites back into the family. God designated Ephraim as His "firstborn" in the book of Jeremiah.
---gracynluv on 7/17/08


This is a prophecy about the scattering of the house of Israel among the other nations in the world. Gomer also bore a daughter, called Lo-Ruhamah (meaning "no-mercy"), for God said He would no longer have mercy on the house of Israel. Then she bore another son, Lo-Ammi ("not my people"), for God said they were not His people and HE would not be their EL, because of their disobedience. Yet by great mercy, God speaks of the future restoration and coming together again of the two houses.

Judah returned to the land after 70 years of captivity, yet Israel(10 tribes) has not returned. It was after the return of Judah that the term "Jew" begin to be used to apply to all Israelites.
---gracynluv on 7/17/08


the bible clearly says pray for Jerusalem
so must all Christians support Israel.
---francis on 7/17/08


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