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Why Living Under The Law

The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith but after faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal.3:24-25). Why are so many still trying to live their lives by following "the schoolmaster of the law" after they have put their faith in Christ?

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 ---Shawn.M.T on 8/15/08
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Psalms 19:7-9
"The law of the LORD is perfect...the statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart...the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever..."
---AG on 12/20/08


Shawn t. you are doing a great job. I only see clear cut answers from you. You always make your points very clear. I thank you for that and am glad you are answering here.
Your question to Frances was a good question. I don't think that Frances does it on purpose, she is learned in too many other matters and little on the whole of Scripture and I think when she answers she answers with all other things she knows and what she knows from scripture and combines them together. Like she said, "When Jesus returns we will find out who was faithful to the doctrines of Peter and who was led away by Paul, and then she adds Popes and tele evangelist" Can you imagine Paul leading people away?
---MarkV. on 12/12/08


It is wise to live by the law as long as your faith for salvation is in Christ not the law itself.

Psalms 19:7-9
"The law of the LORD is perfect...the statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart...the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever..."

Many "Christians" never sit under the schoolmaster. Someone tells them they are sinners going to hell, then offers them Christ as a "get out of hell free" card. They say "I believe." And the deal is done.
However if "Christians" don't learn the schoolmaster's lessons they'll continue to idolize food, alcohol, sex, Hollywood, etc. just like pagans. And 1 Cor 6:9 says idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God.
---AG on 12/11/08


--Frances008: ***It may be funny to you, but there is a lot at stake, and mocking those who are serious is not a good policy.***

I'm neither mocking nor responding to any of these post in a frivolous or funny way because I understand what is at stake!!

I'm here only to share the good news of the Lord, with hopes of edifying & being edified in the process.
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/8/08


frances, don't you know that by saying feed my sheep, Jesus was telling them to serve?
well, he was. He was not putting anyone in charge. Jesus says deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me.
What does this mean? We follow and serve Jesus. This is what Peter did. By this action, Jesus did not give the disciples charge of His church. He said for them to serve his church. They do this by ministering to them. Every position in the Church is a servant position. This includes the Pope.
"Beware that you don't become puffed up and think that you are above Christ and ignore what Christ has truly done for you."
This comes from several different passages. We should heed this, too.
---miche3754 on 11/7/08




Jesus came by "WATER and blood"...

1 John 5:6
"This is he who came by water and blood" (the water that also flowed from His side at the cross).

The EXTREMELY important significance of this water is not taught (or even recognized and understood, ask your pastor without first telling them what it is) in the teachings of Christianity.

We should live under the LAW OF LIBERTY, no other law...

James 2:12
"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty".

The prodigal son's dad did not impose the laws of scriptures on his son, he treated his son the same way God would.

verses RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 11/7/08


... your minds are clearly affected by watching too many horror films. Now you are confusing them with my words. I say that Jesus is (his whole body) the Head of the CHURCH. He is the true shepherd. He appointed disciples to lead the church from the least educated people around, those who were least affected by strange doctrines, and the main one who he chose was Peter. It was known by Jesus that the devil would have a go at Peter, but Jesus knew that Peter was the best choice out of all those men available including Saul who was going around persecuting the Christians. Peter was not perfect but he was the best one for the job, apparently. Jesus never unappointed him or replaced him with Paul, though both of them were executed.
---frances008 on 11/6/08


Shaun and Kathr, though it may be amusing to you, the use of metaphors or I should say misuse of them, is going to cause you a lot of problems in arguing any of your positions, and also in being taken seriously. It may be funny to you, but there is a lot at stake, and mocking those who are serious is not a good policy.
---frances008 on 11/6/08


Man will always want to idol worship some other man. Jesus was wise in that he chose a simple fisherman to lead his church when he left planet earth for the last two thousand years. When Jesus returns we will find out who was faithfully to the doctrine of Peter and who was led away by Paul, or popes or telly evangelists.
---frances008 on 11/6/08


Jesus was anxious that his sheep be fed at the proper time and for this reason appointed Peter in two places in the Bible, but written of in more than two places. Two different gospels have Peter being placed as caretaker of the doctrine of the church. If you have a problem with this please pray about it, and ask for the truth to be revealed.
---frances008 on 11/6/08




**Frances certainly you're not implying that the Head of the Church (Christ) could ever be absent from His own body and need a representative??? **


Since everything flows down from the Head to the Body, nourishing us, from whom all wisdon flows, etc, what a mess that would be ..we'd be running around like chickens with our head cut off...

Or seeing Jesus as some headless horseman!



---kathr4453 on 11/6/08


I am just curious to this replacing Jesus with Peter.
Didn't Jesus say that when He leaves he will send someone in his place?
Oh, Yes he did, It is the Holy Spirit!!
So nope, Peter did not replace Jesus as the Head. Christ is still the Head of the Church. Do you need scripture to back this up, because I can sure provide plenty of this for you.
We All know that the Holy Spirit took the place of Jesus and that the Holy Spirit is Jesus, just like Jesus was the Human form of God.
So, answer this, if all of this is truth, why would God place Peter over himself?
---miche3754 on 11/6/08


--Frances008: ***do you think that God did not know what He was doing in choosing Peter to be the representative of the absent head of the church (Jesus Christ)? Why do you have to elevate Paul?****


Colossians 1:15,18,19 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.He is the head of the body, the church. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.


Frances certainly you're not implying that the Head of the Church (Christ) could ever be absent from His own body and need a representative??? In making such a comment you're attempting to decapitate Christ just to try to ELEVATE Peter!!!
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/6/08


Frances ... I think Romans 2. 14 & 15 might have something to do with what I recalled
---alan_of_UK on 11/6/08


AlanofUk, I will search today for what you want. I think it contains the word 'conscience'. Thank you Kencrank. It is useful to have those verses too.
---frances008 on 11/5/08


If you google 'conscience, Bible' you get an interesting article at the top. The only O.T. reference it had was Psalm 32. They suggest the first five verses but actually the whole psalm shows a relationship based on the conscience. Then an intersting aside, Titus 1.15-16 shows the connection between faith and works. Verse 16 'They profess that they know God but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work, reprobate.' They profess to believe but show that they do not because of their actions.
---frances008 on 11/5/08


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Kathr, do you think that God did not know what He was doing in choosing Peter to be the representative of the absent head of the church (Jesus Christ)? Why do you have to elevate Paul? He would not have wanted it.
---frances008 on 11/3/08

Jesus is NOT the absent Head of the Church.

Even Peter says of Paul:
2 Peter 3:15-17

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you,

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
---kathr4453 on 11/5/08


--Alan of UK: ***unless someone here can deny the existence of such a statement, I feel that there is truth in what you say & that God in His mercy & love will deal with them with compassion.****

Your correct in believing that God will deal with us all with Compassion, Mercy & Love!!

But don't hold your breath for a denial to a statement that has no chapter & verse....and definately don't believe that something is the TRUTH based on "I feel". The truth is discerned by the Spirit and is confirmed in the Spiritual Word of God.
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/5/08


Kenrank, those are not the verses.

What you quote condemns those who have not heard the law.

What I recalled was more hopeful
---alan_of_UK on 11/5/08


Alan and Francis...the verses you look for are here: (14 & 15 the key)

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)
---kenrank on 11/4/08


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In the PenPal section I can recieve email by looking up the name they gave me which is Samue6667.

Now that has got to be one of the most unfortunate names I could get. But it is the one they stuck me with. So if you wish to to chat pen pals and look me up so you can use this to email me. Then I can reply.

Peace to all.
---Samuel on 11/4/08


ShawnT, Thanks, I too enjoy when you write and what so many here write. It gives me a another reason to study more topics. There is just so much to learn and so much to read in such a short time. I always feel I am running out of time in my life and that makes me want to know more each day. We can learn from one another as i found out 12 years ago when I first heard of the Sovereignty of God from a teacher from another country. It was something I had never studied about or had any knowledge of what it contained. Those teachings gave the the greatest understanding that our theology should be God centered and not man centered. Again thanks for your answer and please cut in when you see I make a mistake, I rather be corrected then wrong.
---MarkV. on 11/4/08


--MarkV:

I haven't been following your posting with Samuel but I do read your post when I come across them. I did read Samuel's post dealing with those passages I gave you. I discerned the truth in what he was sharing and hoped that you would hear it as well, seeing how we have been of one accord in many other areas.

The post about "forbading" was not directed toward you but was a response to your 10/30/08 post to me. I was expressing my agreement and also stating why people forbad others, that do not follow as they do.

The post dealing with looking upon everyone as of be of Christ, was also not to point at you as it was to share my state of mind. It helps & strengthens me to hear His Word everywhere.
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/4/08


Alan, I opened my Bible randomly at Luke 9.50 and Jesus gave me these words 'he that is not against us if for us'. Therefore there is no need to see the average Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or even atheist, as an enemy of Jesus Christ or Christianity. I personally think more enemies of Christ are in the established church than or outside of it.
---frances008 on 11/3/08


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Paul was a great saint. I have no problem with him. He spread the message around the world, and he also wrote letters encouraging the churches he built or which others built. But you should not idolize anyone. He had his faults. He was not chosen by Jesus for the purpose that you all use him for, which is for inventing doctrines. Peter was the one told to do that (three times). Kathr, do you think that God did not know what He was doing in choosing Peter to be the representative of the absent head of the church (Jesus Christ)? Why do you have to elevate Paul? He would not have wanted it.
---frances008 on 11/3/08


Frances ... I recall there is a Bioble passage which says that we will be judged in accordance with the light that we have received.

I wish I could find it!

But unless someone here can deny the existence of such a statement, I feel that there is truth in what you say & that God in His mercy & love will deal with them with compassion.
---alan_of_UK on 11/3/08


The schoolmaster is the teacher. The teacher teaches a foundation that you take with you all of your life. Once you have learned all you can from the teacher, you move on...but you don't leave the teachings behind, they are instilled in you.

The Law is not a burden, David called it a delight. We have laws in this country, you can't go steal a car for example. Is that a burden? You can't kill your neighbor, drink and drive, rob a bank. Are you burdened by that? Then why do so many Christians see the Law of God as a burden? Do you not realize that the "burden" was the man made additions to God's Law?
---kenrank on 11/3/08


***Lee, I am sorry that you prefer to cherry pick from Paul's letters to the THEN church, rather than listen to what the Messiah had to say.***

Frances, Paul was struck down by the Lord, taken into the 3rd Heaven...spent 14 years behind a mountain with the Lord.....and you seen to think there is conflict between what Jesus taught and Paul. I've never seen so much compatibility in all my life.

Where is YOUR problem?
---kathr4453 on 11/3/08


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ShawnT, I believe you misunderstand me. I reread both of your last post and you seem to think I forbid Samuel as not been in-Christ just because he has some things we don't agree with, and that maybe I am using the phrase, "If he is not with us he is against us" passage.
I don't have any idea of the sort in my heart for Samuel or anyone else that answers. Especially Samuel who has admitted we are saved by grace through faith, and was the only one honest enought to agree there are many pharisees in the denomination.
I would love to talk and discuss things with Samuel because he is willing to discuss godly things in a godly manner. Others don't do that very well.
---MarkV. on 11/3/08


Isn't it twisting the scriptures to say that anyone who has not heard the Good News of Salvation is automatically going to be lost forever (to Hell)? I keep saying that Jesus says in John 14 that His Fathers house has many mansions. 'I go to prepare a place for you>' This does not mean automatically that there is no other place for other people of different backgrounds. Innocent people who God created and gave them spirits in His image. Even the letters to the early church warn people of the danger of hearing of and knowing Christ and then falling away. Better for them if they had never heard of Christ to begin with, than to accept Him and then reject Him having tasted the goodness of life in Him.
---frances008 on 11/3/08


frances - *the original RCC stands closer to the truth than the children churches she produced/produces.

I rather doubt that anyone disagrees with that. However, much has been added to Roman Catholicism since its conception. For instance, you would be hard pressed to find any of the Marian doctrines in early RCC.

As to my going elsewhere rather than scripture for my beliefs, I dispute that as I try prayerfully hard to examine everything and every teaching in light of the Scripture alone - sola scriptura!




---Lee1538 on 11/3/08


--MarkV:

The non-lineal order of Samuel's sentences may be what's throwing off your hearing of what he's sharing???

Your's & Samuel's post are clearly heard in one accord as the true Word of God!

We gaurd our hearts & at the same time keep our hearts open without fear by looking upon everyone/thing with the Love of God & as stated in 2 Cor. 10:7, while trusting & believing that all things work together for the good of them that love God (Rom.8:28).

Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's (2 Cor. 10:7)
---Shawn_M.T. on 11/2/08


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Lee, I am sorry that you prefer to cherry pick from Paul's letters to the THEN church, rather than listen to what the Messiah had to say. It is your choice though. If you must go somewhere for doctrine apart from to Jesus own words, please see what Peter says since he was the appointed substitute for Christ and told to feed the sheep. Whether I agree or not with the RCC and her fornications with the leaders, in questions of doctrine the original RCC stands closer to the truth than the children churches she produced/produces.
---frances008 on 11/2/08


frances - *Jesus said that He wants us to keep His Fathers commandments just as He has kept them,

Obviously you know very little about what the scripture says, believing that since Jesus was under the law we should also be.

Ga 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
---Lee1538 on 11/1/08


ShawnT, thank you brother for your answer. I always read your post and have great respect for you.
Concerning what I read from Samuel "That the Spirit of breath" I understand very well. It is a noun derived from the word "Ruach" When someone dies the immortal ruach returns to God who gave it, definition for Spirit of breath in Eccl. 12:7 from the Lexical aid for the Old and New Testament.
But the same word in Matthew 26:41 has a different meaning. The word is called "Pneuma" and in Matthew 5:3, 26:41 and Mark 2:8 The meaning is, "the element in man by which he perceives, reflects, feels, and desires" Spirit also means the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
---MarkV. on 11/1/08


Continue"
And since spirit has many meanings and since he spoke of the Spirit of breath and character returning back to God and the soul waiting some place I was wondering what he was talking about. Not that I was questioning his believe but to what he was talking about.
We know that the lost are spiritually dead. And that they do not return back to God if lost, it makes a big difference in what he is talking about.
I hope I explained this correctly. Maybe I didn't but I would sure like to hear what you have to say. I take any edification I can get, and I will check it with Scripture.
---MarkV. on 11/1/08


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Jesus said that He wants us to keep His Fathers commandments just as He has kept them, in John 14 and 15. Jesus was Jewish, this should give you a clue as to which Law he followed.
---frances008 on 10/31/08


Samuel - *You insist that we do not have to follow the whole bible.

We are, however, to rightfully handle the word of God.

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

For there are many who will not, choosing instead to follow the founder of their religion instead.

2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Sabs simply do not want to make any real dichotomy between the Old & New Covenant, choosing instead to cherry pick laws from the Old and obsolete covenant (Hebr 8:13).
---Lee1538 on 10/31/08


Actually the fact is, does your doctrine pass the Colossians 2 test. If it's full fo do's and don't, it's not the Gospel!!!

Cults do not pass the Colossians 2 test!
---kathr4453 on 10/31/08


Samuel - *...there is nothing within the New Covenant that supports them - things like observance of days, dietary laws, etc.

Lee I am shocked at this lie.

----

Those that have studied the Bible in as much detail as possible have yet to find anything in the New Covenant that commands we observe a particular day of the week, or restrict us for what we are to eat or not eat.

Perhaps hou have found something in the Scripture that the rest of us have yet to find? New Testament book, chapter & verse please!
.
---Lee1538 on 10/31/08


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--MarkV:

Hope these passages are edifying to you regarding your questions asked of Samuel:

Ecc.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I do not believe that Samuel was referring to the soul of a person after their physical death, in reguards to your question of "**Where is the soul looking from for the resurrection? Where is it? The location?**"

Christ told us to watch and pray, so we would not enter into temptation (Matt.26:41). The soul is only able to be drawn by God to the resurrectional salvation in Christ because the spirit is willing and this we must always remember, for it is the flesh that is weak.
---Shawn_M.T. on 10/31/08


Samuel, can you guide me to the passages that state that our Spirit breath of life and character returns back to God after death? I would very much like to see where you get that from. You then said that the we are a soul and we look for the resurrection of the dead. Where is the soul looking from for the resurrection? Where is it? The location? On earth, heaven, under the ground?
I have never heard of such a thing and was wondering if you can give us some passages to see what you are talking about. I don't want to say you are wrong without reading how you came to this conclusion.
---MarkV. on 10/31/08


Hebrews 10:1-4
"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshippers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin." New Testament believer is not under law in three senses,
1. under the ceremonial law because it has been fulfilled by Christ.
2. under Jewish civil law
3. under condemnation of the law
---MarkV. on 10/31/08


--MarkV:

It's TRUE!! We who are in Christ should not forbid one another as being in the Lord, just because the other person may not be doing something exactly the way we are doing it or choosing to follow the calling that we heard.

When viewing others, many have as yet to leave behind the world's false belief that "if someone is not with us they are against us" but this is once again the inverse of the Word of God in Luke 9:50 "forbid them not: for they are not against us is for us".

Luke 9:49-50 John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
---Shawn_M.T. on 10/30/08


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We gentiles, who were once far from God, sacrificing humans and bowing down to idols, are now brought near through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. This is what atonement is. We come to believe in God by believing in the witnesses - our spiritual ancestors, who saw Jesus raised from the dead or who heard the reports, or who heard of or saw the miracles. By believing in Jesus as being Son of God, we now are forced to accept that the Jews were correct in awaiting a Messiah. We have to see Jesus as the promised Messiah. We have to see the Old Testament as the truth. Let the Jews choose what they believe in. We are now brought into their Judaism, but we accept Jesus as the fulfilment.
---frances008 on 10/30/08


8For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

SDA too say they do not believe in the Spirit, that the soul dies with the Body.

It's called the rise of Neo-Sadduceeism!....and the SDA are included in this group. kathr4453

You are misinformed. We believe the Spirit breath of life and our character who we are return to GOD at death. That we are a soul and we look to the resurrection from the dead. We are Proressurrection like Paul. Not chosing to discount the resurrection. We point to it constantly.

That our Guardian angels will lift us up to meet JESUS in the air.
---Samuel on 10/30/08


6But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

7And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

8For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

9And there arose a great cry: .....

SDA too say they do not believe in the Spirit, that the soul dies with the Body.

It's called the rise of Neo-Sadduceeism!....and the SDA are included in this group.
---kathr4453 on 10/30/08


***This is the first time we are not compared to Pharisees. Who like us believe in the resurrection. The Sadducee's were ones who believed that being rich in these worlds good is what showed you were a true follower of GOD. Think the name and claim it group.***

The Sadducees like the SDA, believed the soul died with the body.

No one really knows where the Sadducees came from. Many believe they were a renegade bunch from the time of Solomon,(when Solomon allowed cult worship in Israel through his many wives of different cults)

Also Jezebel again brought in cult worship of other gods and goddesses.

Sadducees were APPOINTED BY A ROMAN GOVERNOR to be Priests in the Temple.
---kathr4453 on 10/30/08


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Yes, you also see the teachings of the SDA loaded with all these dietary laws, wanting to sell you Barley etc. You know the "Jesus in a Blender" doctrine.

Every time I flip through the channels and flip by CBN that is ALL the SDA's promote these days it's none other than body worship. Also the homeopathic medicine too much like the Scientologists.

They have totally MISSED it!!!! They stumbled over the Rock....
kathr4453

To promote Body health is wrong? JESUS is not in a blender. I have seen Baptists promote health also. Are not our bodies temples of the Holy Spirit? Some SDA do promote Homepathic but most do not.

We build our faith on the Rock of ages who died for us. We follow His example.
---Samuel on 10/30/08


Amen Gina.

And the Sabbaterians in their continual quoting of Mt. 5:17 truly believe that Jesus did not fulfill anything that basically selected OT laws are still in effect and binding on Christians despite the fact there is nothing within the New Covenant that supports them - things like observance of days, dietary laws, etc.
Lee1538

Lee I am shocked at this lie. We had a discussion on this very topic not long ago. We agreed there was a big difference.

You insist that we do not have to follow the whole bible. That we must ignore that Paul quoted the Old Testament over and over and said that it was for doctrine and correction. That is our difference.
---Samuel on 10/30/08


the Sadducees, who believed the soul dies with the body, ( no resurrection) and only adhere to the written Law. The Sadducees did not believe the miracles Jesus did,... They had no spiritual understanding of spiritual things. kathr4453

This is the first time we are not compared to Pharisees. Who like us believe in the resurrection. The Sadducees were ones who belived that being rich in these worlds good is what showed you were a true follower of GOD. Think the name and claim it group.


Abraham's true Spiritual seed, believed in the resurrection....as stated in Hebrews 11, Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead. (and have no confidence in the flesh). kathr4453

Exactly what we believe.
---Samuel on 10/30/08


ShawnT, many are trying to live their lives by following the schoolmaster of the law" but what is more wrong is they want everyone else to do the same. All I read in the New Testament is how the Jews wanted to add works of the law to Grace and Paul and many others were so oppose to that. Jesus spoke of the pharisees and suddecees who made every attempt to continue following all kinds of laws they themselves had imposed on many for years. They had turned the Word of God for their benefit. And now that Grace had come they wanted it to continue.
There is no place in the church for spiritual pride, still less for anti-semitism-we are spiritual ofspring of Abraham.
---MarkV. on 10/30/08


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Gina7, unfortunately you have entered a sect much like the Sadducees, who believed the soul dies with the body, ( no resurrection) and only adhere to the written Law. The Sadducees did not believe the miracles Jesus did, and were not circumcised in heart and ears. They had no spiritual understanding of spiritual things. Just as you yourself scoffed at what I was stating that we are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places.

The SDA's are nothing more than the spawn of the Sadducees, a cult itself withing Israel.

Abraham's true Spiritual seed, believed in the resurrection....as stated in Hebrews 11, Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead. (and have no confidence in the flesh).
---kathr4453 on 10/30/08


They have totally MISSED it!!!! They stumbled over the Rock....
---kathr4453 on 10/29/08
I have not missed it. On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.

I became a Christian in the Southern Baptist church and accepted Christ as my saviour at age 17 and was baptized by immersion. I became a vegetarian from reading the Bible's health rules and avoided pork because I thought it was bad. I studied Bible prophecy Revelation and saw a lot of confusion in interpretation and asked God to show me the truth, and that led me to the SDA church at age 18 from a Daniel/Revelation seminar. I have never been happier walking with Christ as an SDA as all doctrines are Bible based. The Sabbath is a delight to me.
---Gina7 on 10/29/08


Samuel - *The Old Testaments is the Gospel concealed in symbols. The New is the Gospel revealed in JESUS.

And the Sabbaterians in their continual quoting of Mt. 5:17 truly believe that Jesus did not fulfill anything that basically selected OT laws are still in effect and binding on Christians despite the fact there is nothing within the New Covenant that supports them - things like observance of days, dietary laws, etc.
---Lee1538 on 10/29/08


Perhaps in the forseeable future they will come to have much in common with Armstrongism and other cults.
---Lee1538 on 10/29/08

Yes, you also see the teachings of the SDA loaded with all these dietary laws, wanting to sell you Barley etc.....You know the "Jesus in a Blender" doctrine.

Every time I flip through the channels and flip by CBN...that is ALL the SDA's promote these days.....it's none other than body worship. Also the homeopathic medicine too.....much like the Scientologists.

They have totally MISSED it!!!! They stumbled over the Rock....
---kathr4453 on 10/29/08


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To those that are late to this forum, Adventists believe that there is no real distinction between the Old and New Covenant in that certain laws such as Sabbath observance, dietary laws and other laws not found within the New Covenant of the church are still applicable to Christians. Lee1538

Incorrect Lee. We do believe there is a major distinction between the two. We do not accept that most of the Bible is no longer for the Church. That all scripture is no longer all authoritive or doctrine. The Old Testaments is the Gospel concealed in symbols. The New is the Gospel revealed in JESUS.
---Samuel on 10/29/08


While they reject many of the 600+ OT laws, there is a movement within Adventism (according to a leading magazine by former Adventists) to re-introduce some of the older feast-keeping celebrations of Judaism. Perhaps in the forseeable future they will come to have much in common with Armstrongism and other cults.
Lee1538

We see the ceremonial laws as pointing to JESUS. We see laws of goverment and traveling as being taken over by our goverment. The former Adventist you mention if it is who I think. Often makes wild misleading statments about us. To discredit us. We are not going to stop believing in the Trinity or in the entire Bible. We still teach you must be Born again. Also according to Barnhouse and Martin we are not a cult.
---Samuel on 10/29/08


So, we need to be careful and determine through biblical scriptures as well what "law" is being talked about in a particular verse. As Christians we still live under a law - the law of faith.
---manny on 10/29/08


Manny, let's hope we don't interpret this to be faith in the Law of Moses either.


Romans 9:32

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.

So faith means FAith in Jesus Christ....Israel didn't stumble at the Law of Moses at all...they stumbled at Jesus!!!
---kathr453 on 10/29/08


Gina - * Jesus says "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" Exodus 20:8-11. Truth is simple.

To those that are late to this forum, Adventists believe that there is no real distinction between the Old and New Covenant in that certain laws such as Sabbath observance, dietary laws and other laws not found within the New Covenant of the church are still applicable to Christians.

While they reject many of the 600+ OT laws, there is a movement within Adventism (according to a leading magazine by former Adventists) to re-introduce some of the older feast-keeping celebrations of Judaism. Perhaps in the forseeable future they will come to have much in common with Armstrongism and other cults.
---Lee1538 on 10/29/08


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There is one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling,


one Lord
one faith,
one baptism,


one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


Gina7,if it's true that you believe as most Sabbatians, those who do not keep the Sabbath are actually anti-Christ for changing the times and seasons RE Daniel..( also taken totally out of context) WHY is this one DAY, the Sabbath Day NOT listed here, if not keeping it is in-fact anti-Christ and the worse sin of all?!
---kathr4453 on 10/29/08


---Gina7 do you believe in replacement theology? Do you believe that the church has replaced Israel?
---mima on 10/29/08


Gina7, the New Creation/Creatures are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places in Christ. Spiritually WE have no beginning of days or end of days, and do not COUNT DAYS. Days are counted by the sun and moon....The sun comes up and goes down here on earth...but in Heaven there is no sun or moon...therefore, those IN CHRIST who have been translated out of this present evil age into the Kingdom of His Dear SON, are eternal beings NOW. We are just waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Our earthly man is crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 10/27/08
What a long drawn out confusing excuse for sinning against Christ and not keeping the Sabbath. Jesus says "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" Exodus 20:8-11. Truth is simple.
---Gina7 on 10/29/08


I think one of the reasons is that there are those who, whenever they see the word "law" in the bible always interpret it to mean the OT. But in one particular verse of the bible, it talks of two laws:

In Rom.3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Here there are two laws given: the "Law of Works" and the "Law of Faith".

So, we need to be careful and determine through biblical scriptures as well what "law" is being talked about in a particular verse. As Christians we still live under a law - the law of faith.
---manny on 10/29/08


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Revelation 22:23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Samuel can you see the difference between this and Isaiah 66? kathr4453

Yes. They add to each other. It does not say the sun or moon does not exist. Just there is no need.

Samuel You asked me do you still live in this earth answer YES, kathr4453

Then now you should observe the Sabbath. Not speaking of being in heaven.

Samuel, Isaiah 66 is talking about the Millennial Kingdom here on earth not Heaven. kathr4453

So then you will keep Sabbath. Just not now. We will get new bodies in heaven.I Corithians 15. The New Jerusalem will be on earth.
---Samuel on 10/28/08


Samuel,

Revelation 21:22-23

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Samuel can you see the difference between this and Isaiah 66??

---kathr4453 on 10/28/08


Samuel #2, You asked me...do you still live n this earth...answer YES, but here is what I'm talking about....

2 Corinthians 4:16-18

16For which cause we faint not, but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/08


***Have you told your Boss at work this? Do you not still live on this earth? Isiah 66:23 says in Heaven we will meet every Sabbath. So you should be doing that.
---Samuel on 10/27/08***

Samuel, Isaiah 66 is talking about the Millennial Kingdom here on earth...not Heaven. If you look carefully in Revelation....there will be no sun to light or moon. The Lamb will be the Light.





Isaiah 66: 23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Flesh and Blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God=Heaven Hummmmm.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/08


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Gina7, can you quote any scripture God gave to Adam & Eve that they must keep a sabbath day?
---kathr4453 on 10/25/08
Gen 2:3"And God blessed (spoke good of) the 7th day, set it apart as His own, and HALLOWED it" AMPLIFIED BIBLE

qadash {kaw-dash'}Strongs 6942

1) to be set apart, be consecrated

2) to observe as holy, keep sacred

3) to be observed as holy

When God set apart as holy the 7th day, it meant, observe it as a holy day thereafter.

There is nothing in this verse that says "Only in Eden"

Also the 4th commandment refers back to creation as the time when the Sabbath was set apart as Holy, as the memorial of creation.
---Gina7 on 10/28/08


If in fact the Sabbath was established in Genesis ...it would be established for ALL people everywhere.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08

Mark 2:27 And He said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man (mankind), and not man (Jew) for the Sabbath.

AMPLIFIED BIBLE 27And Jesus said to them, The Sabbath was made on account and for the sake of man, not man for the Sabbath

The fact of the matter is, The Sabbath was made for all people everywhere (mankind) but not all people want to observe it.
---Gina7 on 10/27/08


The only answer is they returned to keeping the Sabbath so that God would be able to work in their behalf.
---Gina7 on 10/27/08

Gina7, this is the only answer YOU came up with...your extra-biblical interpretation.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08

Exodus 5:5 And Pharoah said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

The Strongs Hebrew word used for rest (and ye make them rest) in this verse is:

shabath (shaw-bath') 7673

Its root word is Sabbath, and it means to rest from labour, celebrate, and keep the Sabbath.

No, I did not make this up, I got this from the original Hebrew.
---Gina7 on 10/27/08


Gina7, the New Creation/Creatures are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places in Christ. Spiritually WE have no beginning of days or end of days, and do not COUNT DAYS. Days are counted by the sun and moon....The sun comes up and goes down here on earth...but in Heaven there is no sun or moon...therefore, those IN CHRIST who have been translated out of this present evil age into the Kingdom of His Dear SON, are eternal beings NOW. We are just waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Our earthly man is crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453

Have you told your Boss at work this? Do you not still live on this earth? Isiah 66:23 says in Heaven we will meet every Sabbath. So you should be doing that.
---Samuel on 10/27/08


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Being obedient to the law of God does not put anyone under the law. You put yourself under the law if you place your obedience to the law as your righteousness.
Personally, I place my faith in Jesus as my righteousness and my obedience to his law as a reult of my faith. My obedience to the law is not my righteousness so I'm not under the law. Praise God he set me free from the obligation of obedience to the law to attain righteousness.
---john on 10/27/08


Gina7. #2.

Yours and ginger's doctrine along with many others are looking for your salvation in the Millennial Kingdom, and not now in Christ. Yes, during the Millennial Kingdom here on earth there will be 1000 years, of which the shadow of things to come will in fact be Sabbath Keeping....around New Moons etc. This is why Paul says the Church, the Body is of Christ....When you are baptized into His Body...the days of counting 1-7 are over!!!! We're no longer earthly...but Heavenly as He is Heavenly!

Those who mind earthly things are actually enemies of the CROSS. Philippians 4!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08


You have falsely labeled those who dare to be obedient to God by keeping the 10 commandments by not understanding this important difference.
---Gina7 on 10/25/08
Gina7, the New Creation/Creatures are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places in Christ. Spiritually WE have no beginning of days or end of days, and do not COUNT DAYS. Days are counted by the sun and moon....The sun comes up and goes down here on earth...but in Heaven there is no sun or moon...therefore, those IN CHRIST who have been translated out of this present evil age into the Kingdom of His Dear SON, are eternal beings NOW. We are just waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Our earthly man is crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/08


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