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More Taxes For The Rich

Should the rich be taxed more?

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 ---Moderator on 8/28/08
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The haves typically do not give representatively according to their wealth.

If the poor are to get a hand up that's gonna come from the haves not the have nots.

Homelessness is not an acceptable fall back position. Why is there homelessness in America?

Why? Never mind slavery now people can't mention it without gasping - as they should, but people just ignore homelessness. Or at least as a country it is acceptable.
---Martin on 12/20/08


I think there is both too much taxes and government spending. That said, it makes no sense to tax people who are living in poverty and so I believe that moderate to rich people need to be the ones that pay the taxes. However if the intent is merely to take from the rich to give to the less rich, this is clearly just stealing. Thou Shalt Not Steal is one of the ten commandments. It shows that God upholds private property rights at least in some basic way. It makes no difference that we use a third person (the government) to steal from a person to benefit ourselves or another, it is still stealing. Also the bible over and over condemns the sloth, sluggard and says that they shall not eat the bread of the workers.
---chris on 10/28/08


Elder: I know that I never said that I am in favor of abortion. You accused me of doing so in a previous blog. That is a lie. You never proved otherwise. You can accuse me of name calling all you want, but I am trained to identify negative behaviors and address them in people. I do it with my students, patients, and children, who are now adults. I am not going to change for you or anyone on CN. You are the only person to say I am calling you a name. Even my students and patients know the difference, and are mature enough to separate the two. When you accuse me of saying something that I did not say, I am going to call it as I see it.

You have yet to address my inquiry about your accusation of me making racial statements.
---Trish9863 on 9/16/08


I'm a cert. L.L Umpire, tell me about not pleasing one side or the other!LOL
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 9/16/08


Trish you don't understand what I am saying about your comments because it is your nature to use such comments. Not just one but many times. You plainly call me and others liars. I have exposed you on this before but you bask in doing so. I guess you think it adds creditability to you. Now you try to side step by saying you are correcting behavior. Other places you say you are trying to keep me honest. What? Is it honesty according to your standards? I notice your lack of understanding of biblical issues.
You have two problems that go back to one thing.... that is God knows your heart!
---Elder on 9/16/08




Elder: Once again, you accuse me of calling you a name when I address your behavior. That is immature to say the least. Now, you accuse me of making racial statements, and for the life of me, I have no clue to what you are referring. Bearing false witness seems to be a hobby of yours these days.
---Trish9863 on 9/13/08


It is aways the guy on the other side who is intolerant.
---alan_of_UK on 9/12/08


Trish what you don't know, I have researched issues and policies on both sides. I have debated with political candidates in our state.
Are you trying to qualify Obama by your experience or trying to be like him? Your 17 years of Catholic experience is completely understood by me.
You called me a liar again and use racial statements. You lack respect for people who have served this country even as POWs, because you dislike their politics. Your viciousness has closed at least one blog. You ask for tolerance while being one of the most intolerant people on CN.
I remember a time when I said that I would have you on my side to serve hurting people. Now I wonder if you would only serve those who agree with your views.
---Elder on 9/12/08


Elder: So what if Hitler was a Sunday School teacher. So was I, and I attended the Catholic Church for 17 years of my life. Your point is lost in translation. Based on what you are inferring, Obama is another Hitler? I don't think so.

What is really disturbing here is the intolerance of people with views that don't coincide with the one issue, narrow viewpoint that you, and others of your ilk have here. You spread all sorts of lies about the candidates, and the people on these blogs as if you were speaking with authority on them. I pray you stop. You have been respected by many as an authority here.
---Trish9863 on 9/11/08


Great Trish glad to know it.....
Also for your knowledge, Hitler was a Sunday School teacher. The difference is he never attended a church as bad as Obama did for 20 years.
---Elder on 9/11/08




Elder: In the Forum on Faith Obama was asked by Warren "... Now, youve made no doubt about your faith in Jesus Christ. What does that mean to you? What does that mean to you to trust in Christ? What does that mean on a daily basis? I mean, what does that really look like?"

Obama: "Well, as a starting point, it means I believe in that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I am redeemed through Him. That is a source of strength and sustenance on a daily basis. I know that I dont walk alone. And I know that if I can get myself out of the way that, you know, I can maybe carry out in some small way what what He intends. And it means that those sins that I have, on a fairly regular basis, hopefully will be washed away."
---Trish9863 on 9/11/08


">>Obewan, Buffet and others including Bill Clinton are phonies when they say they want to pay more taxes."<<

I don't think Buffet said he WANTS to pay more so much as he is WILLING to pay more. He is an extreme case since he has extreme wealth AND is a democrat. He lives an eccentric lifestyle to be sure. Does not spend much of his wealth, has lived in the same old house since the 1950's or something like that, has plywood for paneling and folding tables for office furniture, etc...But he raises the good point that beyond a certain level, having more money does not add a lot to ones life unless they give it away.
---obewan on 9/11/08


Obewan, Buffet and others including Bill Clinton are phonies when they say they want to pay more taxes. They can pay more now if they really wanted to, but I am sure that they take every single deduction they can.

Anybody who desires to pay more income tax can easily do so. Simply don't take any deductions. Don't claim your mortgage interest, don't claim your charitable giving, etc. There is no law stating you must claim the value of used underwear given to charity just as Bill Clinton did during his days in Arkansas.

And if you feel even more guilty then don't cash your tax refund, or stimulus checks or Social Security checks. Put them in a drawer or tear them up. See, it's easy to pay more tax if you really want to.
---ralph7477 on 9/11/08


Generally, people who "earn" money deserve it. The Bible says "the workman is worthy of his meat (Mat 10:10)." Those who "won't work" for a living are not deserving of food. The Bible says "if any would not work, neither should he eat (2Th 3:10)." Taking from one hard working individual by threat of violence (Just try not paying taxes!) to give to some lazy slugs is WRONG on several levels. While the Bible encourages personal liberality, it condemns stealing (Exo 20:15) from one group to give to another.

Make no mistake, Those who advocate taking from "the rich" to give to "the poor" are just using marxist class warfare to garner votes for themselves.
---jerry6593 on 9/11/08


You appear to be saying that all the poor are in the "won't work" category, but you probably don't mean this.
There are many people who need financial support ... the single carer of a special needs child, those with physical or mental probllems, those with learning difficulties, shelshocked returning servicemen, those in poorly paid jobs.(and remember these exist, and people are locked in them because we insist we won't pay more for the lowly job, and insist that people do them, so some get locked in them)
There are of course also those who on't work. And here in the UK they milk the system, costing taxpayers a fortune.
We need better to help the "can't works", and tell the "won't works" to go to work!
---alan_of_UK on 9/11/08


Nurserobert maybe you will be kind enough to tell me when I have attacked your stand in Christ.

Trish you always read in what you want but since you have made the statement, Yes, I now understand some of your views may very well be influenced by catholic doctrine. Plus, I have not heard of Obama's conversion to Christianity. Can you clue me? Or do you mean the "church" he has been in for 20 years?
Then there is Leon, allowed to call people unchrist like, slanderers, and needing a check up.
Well, you maybe right about the check-up. All you need is a heart transplant.

Now someone answer the question about the slaughter of the un and partical borns....
---Elder on 9/10/08


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Will the dems never learn that employment will not be increased by penalizing those who create jobs?
---Donna66 on 9/11/08


Ralph wrote:
>>"don't understand how anybody can be happy about the prospect that another citizen's taxes are going to be raised."<<

I never said I was happy about taxes being raised. I was unhappy Elder misrepresented Obama's "tax increase". Taxes won't go up for the low income levels stated by Elder.

The issue of "fairness" comes into play for dividends. Is it fair for me to pay 30% in taxes while a billionaire living solely on dividends has to pay 15%? Warren Buffet is willing to pay MORE taxes because he thinks he should give back to the society that enabled free enterprise system and his wealth. Some are actually unable to spend all their money. The alternative is to give to charity.
---obewan on 9/10/08


**
Go ahead and tax the rich ...won't make your life any better, although you may feel better for a little...
**

tax "rich" more "rich" just MAKE more

devestation comes from class who don't contribute anything to taxes ...becoming more enslaved to system of handouts ...going to work for "rich" hating "rich" who pay them ...dignity stripped even more continuing to wallow in their hate of "rich" ...too busy hating with their hands out looking for more ...always the takers ...unable to see beyond the next handout

a hollow victory taxing rich more ...those who live with poverty mindset won't GET rich from less taxes only get more of what they already hate
---Rhonda on 9/10/08


Frankly I don't understand how anybody can be happy about the prospect that another citizen's taxes are going to be raised.

Somebody who thinks like that is probably also jealous when his neighbor buys a brand new car and happy if it gets smashed up in a accident.

Go ahead and tax the rich, whoever they are supposed to be, all you want but it won't make your life any better, although you may feel better for a little while as your small mind gets some twisted satisfaction from somebody else's high tax bill.
---ralph7477 on 9/10/08


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Elder: You need a check up from the neck up. :) I'm not angry though you definitely seem to be.

Wow! You certainly spewed a mouthful of venom at me, but you missed.

I didn't question your Christianity but do think if you slander another it is a demonstration of un-Christlike behavior.

I know you have nothing substancial to offer in the way of credible information, so forget about it.

Hope you get well soon. I'm not your enemy. Peace! :)
---Leon on 9/10/08


""Give me the children from 5 to 13 and I will influence their minds so they can't be changed." Obama had a Muslim father and was taught in a Muslim school when a child."

I had a Catholic father and was taught in a Catholic school when I was a child. Does that make me still a Catholic, Elder?
---Trish9863 on 9/9/08


Elder says: I thought you were serious.
Then in typical liberal socialist left wing fashion you attack my Christianity.

I wonder how many times the "typical right wingnuts" have done the same thing to us liberals?
---NurseRobert on 9/9/08


Elder: According to your quote, of Mao, "Give me the children from 5 to 13 and I will influence their minds so they can't be changed," Obama's conversion to Christianity cannot be for real, at least that is what I am getting out of what you said. Since I went to Catholic school and did not leave the Catholic church till I was 17, my conversion to Christ cannot be for real either and I am still really a Catholic, according to your use of Mao's quote. Or, am I misunderstanding your use of Mao's quote?
---Trish9863 on 9/9/08


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Leon I do act dumb I guess. You see I was fooled by you. I thought you were serious.
Then in typical liberal socialist left wing fashion you attack my Christianity. Of course your anger shows because nothing was left for you to do. I was willing to give you complete sources up to and including items in Congress.
But no, in your democratic spin you slander Christ and what He has done in my life.
So, how come you have not slandered Obama's "Christianity." His allows babies to be cut up in the womb and voting to let them die on cold stainless steel medical tables while they are wounded and covered in blood. Sure I know he is your god.
The crys of these victim children is not over.
You lost your chance pal.
---Elder on 9/9/08


Elder: You're obviously on a crusade to pedal misdirected nonsense around the CN community as though it were gospel. If you're a Christian, you should be willing to tell the truth & therby shame the devil! :)

I didn't ask for "addresses". I asked for "info sources", e.g., network news (cable and/or syndicated), etc. Instead, you're back-pedaling. Simply let us poor uninformed bloggers know in public what you claim to know in private.

By the way, have you seen CNN bios McCain & Obama revealed? Also, they're soon (this coming weekend) to air Palin & Biden revealed.
---Leon on 9/9/08


Here is part of what he promises at his website:

Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.

He will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This proposal will eliminate income taxes for 7 million seniors and provide these seniors with an average savings of $1,400 each year.

There is more in the press about the income limits for the tax breaks, but I recall that $250K was the upper limit for tax INCREASES.
---obewan on 9/9/08


obewan: May the FARCE be with you!
---jerry6593 on 9/9/08


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Leon, I'll be glad to give you sources. ChristiaNet does not allow addresses to be posted on the forum so post your CN Penpal address and I'll respond.
Some things you must just take notice of. Like Obama didn't leave his "church" and "pastor" until it began costing him votes. Also, Mao said, "Give me the children from 5 to 13 and I will influence their minds so they can't be changed." Obama had a Muslim father and was taught in a Muslim school when a child. He says he is a "christian" but has never condemned the hate faith of the Muslims. The Bible condemns destroying babies. Obama is for it. I notice these things.
I have, noticed by the way, that you don't post your sources.
---Elder on 9/8/08


">>He wants the single $30k earner to go from paying $4,500 in taxes to $8,400. If you are married and make $60k you will go from $9,000 to $16,800 in tax. That is almost double.<<"

Where has he ever said that? Thou shalt not bear false witness may apply here. OK. I will make up what I think is my number. I heard no more taxes for those under $250K, and tax cuts for those singles like me under $75K. Go to his website if you want to see the numbers.
---obewan on 9/8/08


Elder: You say Obama this & Obama that. Would you be so kind to cite your information sources?
---Leon on 9/8/08


Donna sell your property to your son at the legal $1.00 fee.
Obama wants to tax 39.6% on money from stocks, money market, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, and anything that pays or reinvests dividends.
Obama wants to restore the inheritance tax.
He wants the single $30k earner to go from paying $4,500 in taxes to $8,400. If you are married and make $60k you will go from $9,000 to $16,800 in tax. That is almost double.
"They" claim that Clinton "balanced the Budget." I remember that Social Security also got robbed to help do that. Where is SS stability now?
But who cares? Maybe Obama will get a bill passed to do the same thing to the retired citizens he likes to do to babies.
---Elder on 9/8/08


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The whole "tax the rich" ploy comes straight from marxist class warfare strategy, and is nothing short of another vote-buying scheme used by liberals to establish a redistribution of wealth in an American socialist utopia (like Russia and China).
---jerry6593 on 9/6/08


Correct, Ralph!

Obama talks about some very costly programs and new government bureaucracies... at the same time promising tax cuts for millions. (except, of course, for big bad business who will raise their prices commensurate with their taxes). Somehow that doesn't add up to "balanced budget" as I see it.
---Donna66 on 9/5/08


Obewan_"Who knows, maybe he will BALANCE the budget like Clinton did."

The Repub. Congress & Senators got B. Clinton to sign the "Contract with America Bill" and that's where the prosperity came from...(Thank You Monica)

Did you know, that ALL of the terrorist type of people & Nations want B. Obama to be President of the USA?
You should ask yourselves, Why is that?

Do they consider him as one of them or is it,
they know the Dems. will alway's choose to Cut & Run?

Will he use our military to save his family in Africa if they were used as a bargining chip by the Rebels?
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 9/5/08


Just to clarify Obewan, Clinton had a Republican congress that made him balance the budget. Clinton's budgets called for deficits as far as the eye could see. Newt and the boys did a lot of good cost cutting including welfare reform which Clinton reluctantly signed while telling the Liberals not to worry because he would "fix" it later.

Unfortunately something happened to the Republicans. They dropped their small government principles and in their last years of congressional control spent just as badly as Democrats. Pres. Bush didn't went right along with them. Time for new blood to return the party to traditional Republican values.
---ralph7477 on 9/5/08


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Our national debt IS huge! Did obama say what he plans to do about it? If he did, I missed it.
---Donna66 on 9/4/08

Who knows, maybe he will BALANCE the budget like Clinton did. Maybe he will bring an end to a war that has cost $1 trillion dollars before the cost gets to $2 trillion dollars. Maybe he will put an end to the loophole that allows billionaires who live on dividends to only pay 15% income tax.
---obewan on 9/5/08


I've never been told by anyone that I'd be taxed on the whole $200.000! And I know better than that!
Reading back over what I said, however, my point may have been less than clear.

I'm relieved to know that the tax on dividends will stay the same.

But the main point in investing in stocks is not just to collect dividends ... it's to at least keep up with inflation (while also contributing to the ecomomy). That involves occasional buying and selling. Capital Gains Taxes apply to what you make on the sale of stock(and other assets).It's a penalty on wise investing.

It seems an unfair tax increase to me, since
contrary to popular belief, MOST stockholders in the U.S. are not "rich", but very MIDDLE CLASS.
---Donna66 on 9/4/08


Our national debt IS huge! Did obama say what he plans to do about it? If he did, I missed it.
---Donna66 on 9/4/08


Donna, regardless of the republican scare tactics tell you, you are NOT taxed on the $200,000, but on the income you have derived from it. Are you planning on cashing the entire investment when you retire?? I don't think so.
Do you plan on making more than $200,000 when your retire??

Unless there is something you are not telling us, the tax changes Obama is suggesting will not affect you.
---NurseRobert on 9/4/08


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Obewan, you are absolutely correct that the debt increased and is still increasing. I didn't mention it because the purpose of my post was to illustrate the indisputable fact that lowering tax rates always increases tax revenues. But since you bring it up...

Democrats controlled congress throughout the Reagan/Bush years. All government spending must originate in the House of Representatives. Simply put, the Democrats saw all the money rolling in, spent it all and then some. Reagan's stated goal was to spend whatever was necessary to build up the military and national defense in order to win the cold war. He accomplished that. Congress let him do that in return for their huge social and entitlement programs. History lesson over.
---ralph7477 on 9/4/08


Inheritance tax is totally logical and justifiable. (so they say)

When you earn maney during your lifetime, you are taxed on income.

When you spend it, You pay tax on your spending.

BUT If you don't spend it, you avoid paying the tax which you would have paid if you had spent the money on things like cars, drink & tobacco & other junk.

So it's quite justified to tax you on your savings when you eventually pass it on to your children.

And to think in the old days, we were encouraged to save for hard times and our future & to releive others of the burden of providing for us. Now was that not a mad idea?
---alan_of_UK on 9/4/08


>>The fact is that federal tax collections doubled from $500 billion to $1 trillion between 1980 and 1990. Tax rates went down but tax payments went up.<<

Ralph: What you failed to mention is that the debt went up. Our national debt is currently at close to $10 trillion. I read that at least 50% is attributed to the Reagan and Bush administrations. It is no help if a person doubles their income but quadruples their debt load.
---obewan on 9/4/08


Kudos NurseRob, at least you didn't run away even though you weren't the one challenged. Unfortunately, your spin filled answer doesn't wash.

The fact is that federal tax collections doubled from $500 billion to $1 trillion between 1980 and 1990. Tax rates went down but tax payments went up. The idea that Govenment needs to find a way to "pay for tax cuts" is a liberal catch phrase with no basis in economic reality.

Lowering tax rates produces growth which in turn produces tax revenue. High tax rates, high regulation, anti-growth policies, a la the Carter years, produced a near Depression like economy. Jimmy Carter likes Obama's economic ideas, doesn't he?
---ralph7477 on 9/4/08


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Nurse--

Also while I am enjoying decreased income tax but increased capital gains tax, I'm writing a will.

My husband owned a small farm which became mine when he died. We paid tax on this for twenty some years and I still pay the property tax.
My son lives there now and farms it to supplement his low paying job. The farm is worth enough to be subject to INHERITANCE TAX.
I'd like to leave it to him, but he can't afford the inheritance tax,(and his retirement fund has decreased in value). My son loves the farm! I hate to sell it out from underneath him, but even though the government has collected tax on the property for twenty years,they want more inheritance tax than my estate can pay.

Will Obama help me?
---Donna66 on 9/4/08


Nurse Robert
2011 is only 3 yrs away!

I am a retired senior citizen who makes less than $50,000 a year, but two thirds of this is income subject to capital gains tax?
My taxes will probably increase.


Or maybe I'm a single person a year or two from retirement and make substantially less than $200,000 per year.
However, I have $200,000 in investments I have accumulated over my lifetime. I'm counting on this to supplement SS when I retire.
This $200,000 is invested in common stock and stock options...most of which are subject to SHORT TERM Capital gains tax (taxed at the same rate as ordinary income tax). These taxes may easily increase as much or more than my ordinary income tax decreases.
---Donna66 on 9/4/08


Donna, Obama says he would NOT raise taxes on:

1. Families making less than $250,000 a year
2. A single person making less than $200,000 a year

The top dividend tax rate would remain the current 15% for those earning less than $250,000, but would rise 20%-25% (which BTW, are scheduled to be by 2011 anyway) for those earning above that threshold.

Those earning less than $75,000 would get a tax CUT, as well as eliminate income taxes for seniors making less than $50,000 (something republican attack ads conveniently forget to tell you.)
---NurseRobert on 9/3/08


Obama would have you believe that your taxes won't be raised if your income is under $123,000 (or something in that neighborhood...I don't recall precisely)


But if you are an average middle class salaried or hourly employee you WILL most likely pay more in taxes.... If you have an IRA (Roth or otherwise) or if you have a 401K plan through work, whether or not you are aware of it, you are taxed on what those funds earn for you. It's called the CAPITAL GAINS tax. Obama has promised to RAISE the capital gains tax.

If you are retired and living partially or fully off of investments made over a lifetime, you will experience a sudden decrease in your income...not due to "the economy", but to increased capital gains.
---Donna66 on 9/3/08


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You can tax the rich all that you want however until the loopholes are closed it is somewhat of a mute discussion. There is always a way around something and the rich will always find the way, that is why they are rich.
---TIMOTHY on 9/3/08


Ralph: After Ronald Reagan lowered income tax rates across the board in the 1980's did tax revenue to the Federal Government increase or decrease?

In the years following Reagans tax cuts for the rich, the amount of taxes collected actually decreased. It took almost 5 years before the amount of taxes collect returned to the pre-1981 levels. During the Reagan years, tax revenue grew a whopping 2.4%. The national debt, however, went up over 21%.
---NurseRobert on 9/3/08


Steveng, Good for you, just don't get sick or injured!Situations,and attitudes can change in a hurry.
---1stcliff on 9/3/08


1st_cliff: "I've been rich and I've been poor---Rich is better!"

Sophie Tucker said the same thing.

As for me, I'm content whether I'm rich or poor, but I do prefer be just above being poor - just enough money to put food on the table and have a roof over my head. Anything extra I give to the poor. Even though I started my fourth company at the beginning of this year, my salary will not be more than I really need to just have a roof over my head (renting a room in someone else's home) and food on the table. And leave the rest to God.
---Steveng on 9/2/08


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The sad thing is that there are people who call themselves Christian who will be happy if this country ever becomes the socialist state they want it to be. They may change their minds if that happens and actually turn their lives over to the Lord. If you think there are a lot of people on government handouts now, what do you think would happen if Obama got elected?
---SusieB on 9/2/08


Another one bites the dust.
---ralph7477 on 9/2/08


Donna: You are correct. There may be people who are trying to get around the system, but the law does not support their laziness. The law states that people can only receive TANF benefits for five years, and that recipients are required to work.




Ralph: Enjoy your quizzes. I decline to engage in your debate any longer. You can live with your knowledge and I will live with what I have studied and know. I do not have to prove myself to anyone here.
---Trish9863 on 9/2/08


>>Should the rich be taxed more?<<

Taxed how? Do you mean by closing up deductions for the so-called rich like writing off a yacht or private jet used for both business and pleasure? Do you mean the 15% dividend tax? I pay 30% as a single, and I get the 15% dividend tax. They could eliminate it for the billionaire stock market investors who pay very little in taxes without hurting me since my dividend income is small and my taxes are high. Warren Buffet is a democrat who favors more taxes for the rich according to what I have heard, and he was at one point the richest person in the world before Bill Gates.

---obewan on 9/2/08


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Trish, if you studied the economy as you say and researched it in graduate school then you should be able to accurately answer the following questions:

After Ronald Reagan lowered income tax rates across the board in the 1980's did tax revenue to the Federal Government increase or decrease? Did the economy grow or shrink?

George W. Bush cut taxes early in his presidency and the U.S. Treasury set record revenue figures in the years that followed, True or False.

Democrat Governor Corzine of New Jersey has raised the state sales tax by 17 percent. What group has to struggle more to pay that additional tax, low income people or high income people?

Take your time.
---ralph7477 on 9/2/08


trish 9863

One thing I learned in graduate school was not to make blanklet statements unless they can backed up with facts and figures.

You say:
There are no longer people who just sit around collecting a welfare check?

Really? how did you come to that conclusion?
Just because a law exists, does not mean that it automatically produces the condition for which it was intended.

My own experience is that many poor people know how to work around the welfare system as skillfully as the "rich" who use tax loopholes for their own advantage.

It's not a rich or poor thing. it's a human nature thing.
---Donna66 on 9/1/08


Trish, my apologies. I didn't realize that you had actually researched the employment situation and economy or that you had studied it "a lot" in graduate school. Very impressive.

ALL PEOPLE LOOKING FOR A JOB OR CAREER CHANGE, LISTEN UP: There are no more decent jobs in this country! Trish has said so and her information is based in reality.

I guess people will be relegated to lowly work such as picking up dog droppings. Poor Matt Boswell started cleaning people's yards of dog waste in 1988. His company, Pet Butler ended 2007 with $3.5 million in revenue. He could have been successful if those mean Conservatives hadn't cut back financial aid programs and government assistance for higher education.
---ralph7477 on 9/1/08


The rich-poor argument has been around for centuries. How many of you are willing to follow Jesus' suggestion "Sell your belongings,give it to the poor,and come be my follower" Mat.19.21.?. Comming from poverty,working hard I now have a comfortable home in an "upscale" neighborhood,and all the amenities. Going back to wearing socks on our hands(could not afford mittens) I'm afraid is not for me! Not all scripture is practical today in a country of 11 months of winter and 1 month of bad skiing!
---1stcliff on 9/1/08


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Ralph: The careers I have require a great deal of college and graduate school education, something a lot of people in this country cannot afford. It is especially challenging for them due to the conservatives cutting back the financial aid programs, and the lack of funding for higher education. Also, not everyone can emotionally handle teaching in an urban school district, as it is especially challenging and difficult. Many teachers start in my district, and leave the career due to the stress.

My information is definitely based in reality. I have researched the employment situation and economy, and studied it a lot in graduate school.

Where do you get your information?
---Trish9863 on 9/1/08


Trish, I don't accept the premise of your views as they have no basis in reality. There are no more decent jobs in the country? Be serious.

You, of all people, are a prime example of somebody who made a decision to develop skills and expertise so that you are able to be employed in a well paying field. In fact, you often boast that you have three jobs. Maybe you should give up one or two for somebody who needs work.

The point is, if you are able to find above minimum wage work, why do you think most other people aren't able to? Are there that many people who are so much more inferior than you?

If there is nobody willing to offer you a good paying job, you can always create your own job. Ask Bill Gates.
---ralph7477 on 9/1/08


Ralph: From what I hear you saying, you believe that the people who lose their jobs because they were outsourced to foreign countries, and cannot find gainful employment, because there are no more decent jobs in this country, that they are there by their own choice or faulty decisions?

Conservatives, like yourself, always want to blame the poor and unemployed for the circumstances they find themselves in. Tell that to all the displaced auto workers in Michigan. Tell that to all of the poor who do work, but cannot earn a decent wage because of minimum wage being as low as it is.

The employment situation in our country is deplorable, and it is NOT the fault of the unemployed.
---Trish9863 on 9/1/08


People who are unemployed are many times also receiving family aid payments and are also receiving disability payments, not to mention bringing in money under the table. I have known such people.

Barring health and natural disasters, all adults are primarily responsible for our circumstances whether we want to recognize it or not. Whatever place we occupy in society is a result of a lifetime of decisions.

The majority of limitations placed on people are self-imposed. Liberals love to feed into the natural desire of people to play victim and not take responsibility, which helps nobody except the social engineers who earn a living from keeping people dependent on them.
---ralph7477 on 9/1/08


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Rhonda ... I'm sorry, I did not see your statement "POVERTY IS A CHOICE FOR THE LAZY SLOTHFUL WHO EXPECT HANDOUTS" ... and still can't find it.

What I read were your following statements ..
"nothing wrong with poverty it's a choice"
"poverty is a CHOICE now see why poor remain poor always EXPECTING "pie handouts"

So I thought you meant that poverty was the CHOICE of ALL people who are poor.

I have no hatred or condemnation of rich people, and find actually that most of them are in favour of helping the poor
---alan_of_UK on 9/1/08


Rhonda:

In 1998, 8.358 million people were receiving TANF. (Remember they have to either work or attend school.)

In 2005, 6.24 million people, under the age of 65, were receiving SSD payments for disability.

In 2007, 7.078 million people, over the age of 16, were considered unemployed. The US Department of Labor defines employed as anyone who is working, even part time or temporary employment is considered working.

If I add 6.24 million receiving SSD and the 7.078 million people unemployed, I get 13.318 million people. That number is double the amount of people receiving TANF. You claim that the number of slothful handout seekers is the majority of the poor. My statistics say you are again wrong.
---Trish9863 on 8/31/08


Rhonda: Again, your description of the poor as being slothful looking for a handout is totally off base. The law requires ALL recipients of Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)to work or get training. Nobody who collects TANF can sit around being slothful. PLUS, TANF has a five year limit. After five years, the TANF recipients are cut off.


You accuse Alan of not being swift enough to get it, but I believe you are the one who is not swift on this issue.

Look up the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Act of 1995 and learn something about a subject before you get on YOUR high horse and spout stuff about which you obviously know little.
---Trish9863 on 8/31/08


Rhonda: My mistake. The law is called Personal Resonsibility and Work Opportunity Reconcilation Act of 1996. You can read it in its entirety on Thomas, the website of the US Congress. In there they will have the entire history of the law, and the entire law, word for word.
---Trish9863 on 8/31/08


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Brooks, I cannot help thinking that you are comfortably off, with no major financial problems. It would be nice if all Americans voted unselfishly for a way that protected those who are threatened by various situations that the government has put on them. I can understand why you might prefer to sit it out and watch from the sidelines, but is that a good witness for God. Probably any activism and votes do not count on earth, but they count in Heaven. Likewise, you may not care about freedoms disappearing, but some people do care. It would be nice for you to act altruistically, and not just think about how happy and contended you are with the ways things are/ and are going. What about the unborn, do you care about supporting them?
---frances008 on 8/31/08


It seems Sen. Obama, should he be elected president, wants to tax Americans according to Jesus' principle, i.e., "To whomever much is given, of him [them] will much be required." (Lk. 12:48) How's that for fairness Trish? Makes perfectly good sense to me! :)
---Leon on 8/31/08


Brooks, look around you at all the people. In order to save their souls are you willing to do something? Do you think those who believe 'we' have disproved the gospels will respond to arguments based on gospels? We are commanded to make ALL men disciples. The Spirit promised to us is a Spirit of Truth. Truth will set those people free. How are atheists who have never been presented with anything but lies, be saved, except that we start to show them the truth?. One day the truth will be made illegal. All the freedoms you enjoyed gone, and most people (I hope not you) will be quite okay about it, because they loved the lies that the government gave them. Because they had a spirit of unbelief. Perhaps hidden behind a religious spirit.
---frances008 on 8/31/08


**
Rhondda "poverty is a CHOICE"
Sorry, you are wrong.
**

Alan REREAD what I posted POVERTY IS A CHOICE FOR THE LAZY SLOTHFUL WHO EXPECT HANDOUTS

YOU LIKE SO MANY OTHERS WHO HATE RICH cannot see how your hatred blinds you from even reading about rich without becoming so emotionally wrapped up in anger never bothering to read what I wrote ...YOU saw CHOICE getting on high horse using examples of which are so far off base ...diffence between choosing idleness and expecting handouts maybe your not swift enough to get it

examples you give are not examples of majority who choose ...so either youre ignorant or diliberate in your goal to prove poverty is a pious self professing christian goal
---Rhonda on 8/31/08


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Rhonda: You should read the book "The Working Poor" and learn about the people who work full time, sometimes two jobs, and still live in poverty. Then, you can talk about poverty being a choice. Your statement shows a great deal of ignorance.

There are no longer people who just sit around collecting a welfare check. The law requires that the welfare recipients in the USA work or go to school to learn a skill so they can become employable. Your description of the woman expecting a piece of the pie is in error.

Read the "Temporary Assistance to Needy Families Act" and learn about the Welfare Reforms that took place in 1995.
---Trish9863 on 8/31/08


Rhondda "poverty is a CHOICE"
Sorry, you are wrong.
I have known people who work their guts out, and are still poor.
And there are those whose hard-earned pension fund has disappeared when their employer steals the funds.
And those who can't work because they are full time caring for special needs (handicapped in old terms) children
And those who have limited abilities so can't earn a big wage.
And returning injured soldiers who can't work and are let down by the government
---alan_of_UK on 8/31/08


Rich is better. But, frankly, I doubt that there are many posters on these blogs who are the category of over $250,000 per year that Obama wants to tax. As for me, I'm waiting for my heavenly rewards, but worked to make sure I wasn't poor all my adult life. Anybody can do that unless they have some physical or mental limitations that keep that from happening.
---SusieB on 8/30/08


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