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Nonforgiving Go To Hell

The Bible says if we don't forgive and have mercy on others then God won't forgive or have mercy on us. Do you believe this means we will not be saved?

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 ---john on 11/14/08
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--Lisa:

Sister, We're Vigilantly Watchful for Christ sake, of the 'Brethren' who are all believers of Christ endeavoring to do wonderful works in His Name as 'Servants'. While Anne forsakes her reproof as excited misjudgment, it's a pleasure to see that you Hear the Spiritual Fruit of 'Kindness', I've endeavored to Edify Anne with about her use of such Ultimatum!!

Lisa, Thanks for the Lord's verse of Matt.7:6. Despite not all the Brethren, who've said Lord Lord, being converted & Saved by a changed Heart, I don't perceive Anne as a 'Dog' or 'Swine' who tramples under foot the Lord's Holy Pearls but as a Sister, whose 'Soul' needs prayer : that she be not judged as the evil hearted unbelieving workers of iniquity Matt.7:21-23.
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/2/09


The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
---t on 3/4/09


When Jesus made that statement, it was to those under the law who were required to forgive their brother seven times. When He said to forgive a brother seventy times seven, He was doing away with the law and indicated to forgive a brother as many times as he asked you. Forgiving comes after we are saved. When we receive the Holy Spirit, I believe forgiveness of others is a natural process which takes place from our hearts. Once you are born again and saved, any unforgiveness withheld will affect your fellowship with God and the love, joy and peace fruits of the Spirit.
---Bob on 2/8/09


Do unto others as you would have done unto you! If you don't forgive someone for the things they have done, then why should God be willing to forgive you? Are the things that the person has done to you worse than all of the sins Christ bore on the cross? If God was willing to send His Son to die for our sins, then certainly we should be willing to forgive anything that anyone does to us. We deserve to burn for the things we've done, but God has mercy on us, so we, if we're truely born again, should be able to manifest that same character of Christ by forgiving others for there transgressions against us. If you come to the end of your race, and it comes to light that you never forgave someone, then I challenge whether Christ was ever in you!
---BryanG on 2/8/09


Here is the passage, "For by Grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8,9.
All believers are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"
John says, " No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" and Romans, says, "So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy." And in 2 Tim. "God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will"
---MarkV. on 12/17/08




"Faith comes to the believer as a gift from God. It is not something that individuals are capable of mustering up on their own." "Paul anticipated that men would tend to boast of their part in salvation when he wrote that faith (one of many components of salvation) "is the gift of Godthat no one should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)."
John MacArthur Jr
That "faith" is "the gift of God" is not what I read in Ephesians 2:8-9, only grace is.
J Mac also said, "True faith hears, believes, and actively responds." On this saying I agree fully.
---Nana on 12/16/08


Samuel, I too don't believe God forces anyone. I believe He makes them able who are not able. I do believe as Scripture declares that He has chosen His bride, His church, and that is made clear all through Scripture, whom He has chosen from the beginning Adam and Eve to be our representives and all those through the ages, from the promise seed of Isaac through those from the seed of Christ. We are a chosen generation. I follow the reform view on the subject, in which God intevines to positively and actively work grace in their souls and bring them to saving faith. It is called double predestination which follows a postive-negative schema. The Holy Spirit has to first quicken our hearts to bring us to saving faith.
---MarkV. on 12/16/08


Samuel, of course I believe in the promises of Christ that He will sustain me, if I didn't I would not have saving faith. Scripture everywhere is clear in one thing a person must do to be saved and that is exercise "true saving faith" in Christ. Faith is the instrument that God uses to bring individuals into a saving relationship with Himself. That is not to say that faith is the basis of our salvation, rather, it is the channel by which God grants salvation. "The saving power of faith resides thus not in itself, but in the Almighty Savior on whom it rest. It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but that Christ saves through faith." Don't you have that faith?
---MarkV. on 12/16/08


---Tonne***Are we supposed to forgive satan in end times?***

Tonne, We're to forgive all sins just as our Heavenly Father has forgiven all sins.

But forgineness given, shall never be received if never asked for through a repentant heart!!
---Shawn_M.T. on 12/15/08


Are we supposed to forgive satan in end times?
---tonne on 12/15/08




Noot at all. People don't have free will. Their will is not free.
MarkV.

Then of course you believe in once save alsways saved since you are a Calvanist.

I agree with many things Calvin wrote and sdmire him. But I disagree on his take on predestination. To me GOD never forces people to believe and He loves all but allows each the results of their choices. So I am more like Luther and Wesley.

Merry Christmas to all.
---Samuel on 12/15/08


Trav, I just posted that God wants us all to come to repentance and you said (wrongly) that that was not anywhere in scripture.
---frances008 on 12/11/08

Show it, it needs a scriptural witness.
Many opinions are given by all of us....where is the proof by the GOD you believe in. This talks. Walk the talk.
---Trav on 12/13/08


Duane: There is a big difference in between believing in God and having faith in God. A sinner can believe in God, by seeing miracles he has performed. But a Christian doesn't have faith in God. Just because one believes in God that doesn't mean they have repented. I know A lot of people whom believe in God and have faith in God by seeing what he can do, but yet they are sinners. Repentance comes from the heart, not just by faith. Your logic seems so far fetched it is only good to the ears, but far from the truth. If our sins are not counted against us, then why did the rich man witnessed hell? Why is Judas in hell if our sins are counted against us? After all Judas believed in God, had faith in God but yet died without Christ.
---Rebecca_D on 12/12/08


Trav~ haha...yea, I doubt that your Bible could be any messier than mine, mine looks like a coloring book as well, but I love it that way.

One thing I never do is judge if someone is saved or not. I feel that is God's responsibility and not mine since I do not know everything about that person. Plus I know everyone is at different stages of growth in their Christian walk, and each person has so many different experiences they have had to endure in their lifetimes. I only point the finger at myself, since apart from God I'm 100% miserable.

Like you, I do try to gently point people to the truth (through scripture) I try to bridle my tongue, since the tongue causes so much grief so quickly. Take care.
---Anne on 12/12/08


Trav~ I'm glad you feel that way too. However, I'm uncertain about a lot of what you said in your last post...are you saying many church leaders remind you of Pharisees?
---Anne on 12/11/08


**Are they the ones going around saying that they are Christians when in fact they are not? No. That is a different group, to whom Jesus will say 'Get away from me, I do not know you, you who do evil.'
---frances008 on 12/10/08 ***

Frances, when reading scripture, all the authors have a warning label in every letter. What is that warning??...false teachers, imposters, posers, LIARS, etc.

Those who take God's word and twist to their own desires. Those who have a form of godliness but deny the power...from such turn away we are told.

Tares, goats, SELF righteous, etc. Our job though isn't to judge them, but to be faithful ourselves and preach the truth regardless of what everyone else is doing.
---kathr4453 on 12/11/08


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Trav, I just posted that God wants us all to come to repentance and you said (wrongly) that that was not anywhere in scripture.
---frances008 on 12/11/08


I feel an intense need to warn other of these falacies with all my heart.
---Anne on 12/9/08
Me as well. I've been rended by the best. Spent years with many church doctrines. Actually none of them connect ALL scripture. Some...none. People come into title or authority get a overwhelmed by the possibility of station. Shadow duplicates of the Sadducee's and Pharisee's. A human condition...it could be no less for me i'm aware. Least of was greatest. Plain as day in scripture...there is only one teacher.
Perhaps scriptures apply most specifically to you below.
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:9-11 Laws in Heart.
---Trav on 12/11/08


Thank's Samuel for your answer. Your summary is wrong, You said, "If I may sum it seems you teach that people have free will until they decide to follow God then they lose their free will and are save no matter what.'
Not at all. People don't have free will. Their will is not free. They are in bondage to sin. Their father is the devil, and their desires is to do his will. If it was free they would not have any desires, but they are separated from God to all spiritual matters. They have a will and make many choices but in that moral corrupt state they will never make a choice for Christ, until they are alive to Christ. God has to bring them alive to spiritual matters. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
---MarkV. on 12/11/08


Sorry Mark I did not read your last post before I posted my previous reply.

YOu do not believe in free will. So GOD chooses some to be lost and some to be saved. The Calvanist Tulip outlines this perfectly.

In my understanding all are called by GOD. The HOLY SPIRIT works to save all. But GOD does not use force to save us. So we choose to be saved or lost. Now GOD knows what our decision will be. But that is not forcing us to make that choice. It is foreknowledge of what will happen.

GOD loves everyone not just some. He loved the rich young ruler who turned away.
---Samuel on 12/11/08


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I feel an intense need to warn other of these falacies with all my heart.
---Anne on 12/9/08

Anne you said,"warn other of these falacies with all my heart."

May the only GOD be with you. You will find plenty of work here. Markv, searches out a truth but, he is just one of three that will accept it when he learns it.

It is very hard to unlearn fallacy's of men. Scriptural witnesses (context)is our only witnesses, to truth.
Many mark themselves here. They run or hide when the prophets come out. As they will in the end.

Glad you write in your scriptures. Mine looks like a coloring book, different highlighters used. At least we'll be in trouble together on this. ha
---Trav on 12/11/08


I believe you are referring to Jesus's prayer in John 17, MarkV.

In it Jesus prays for 1. himself 2. the disciples (those who were given to him) and 3. those who would hear the word of God and become disciples.

Why Jesus doesn't pray for the world is, I believe, because the righteous do not need prayers, and the unrighteous (I mean the wicked, not the sinners) are going to hell anyway.
---frances008 on 12/10/08


Kathr, I don't doubt that those chosen for salvation, who will choose Jesus, who will forsake sin, who will repent and turn to God, are saved. The question is who are those people? Are they the ones going around saying that they are Christians when in fact they are not? No. That is a different group, to whom Jesus will say 'Get away from me, I do not know you, you who do evil.'
---frances008 on 12/10/08


You are correct Mark you did not use the term irrestible grace. What you presented was the basic concept of that teaching.

You are also correct you are promoting the Perservence of the Saints which is also under Calvanism. But you are failing to recognize the interconnection between the two. In effect your are saying that GOD forces people to be saved and they have no choice in the matter. They cannor resist the grace of GOD and do not have a free choice.

If I may sum it seems you teach that people have free will until they decide to follow GOD then they lose their free will and are saved no matter what.
---Samuel on 12/10/08


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Samuel, about God choosing whom He wills, that is also in Scripture but many don't want to even touch those passages, they skip them real fast because it would make their theology sound pretty rediculous.
Hear Jesus words, But there are some of you who do not believe' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father," Did you hear this? Does that sound like free will to you? I don't think so. John 6:43-46 go even further. No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day"
---MarkV. on 12/10/08


Samuel, I didn't mention a thing about irresistable grace? I'm sure I didn't. That was not even in my mind or in my answer at all.
I don't mind answering you any time Samuel. If there was something in my answer that falls under Calvinism it was not irresistable grace which I do believe in, but perseverance of the saints. Not because Calvin taught it, but because Jesus taught it. John 17:6-12 you will find the answer, here is some. " Those whom You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled" Yes, Jesus Christ our Savior is our sustainer, 1 Cor. 1:7-9 and you will see that Christ does not let go of any whom God has given Him.
---MarkV. on 12/10/08


Samuel, MarkV is correct here that those who have placed their trust and faith in Jesus Christ, have a PROMISE of God, that they are Kept until the day of redemption. That promise, is the Holy Spirit that has sealed us until the day of redemption. That part Calvin has nothing to do with. That IS God's Word.

Irresistible Grace is that God saves you first, then you are lost to get saved again. Now that part is strange, I agree and is not found in scripture. But that is not what MarkV is saying here.

After you are SAVED....you are KEPT, sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE....
---kathr4453 on 12/10/08


Dear Mark

You are speaking of the doctrine of Irrestiable Grace one of the five points of Calvanism. That doctrine is about we have no free will at all. DO you believe that?
---Samuel on 12/10/08


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Pastors should use their god-given authority to increase the amount of time spent studying the Word of God in their churches. Unfortunately, they tend to step aside and let unprofessional and ignorant people take over for their (those peoples') own advancement and agenda, which is quite often against God.
---frances008 on 12/10/08


Frances~ What you said about how so often the people have to take the word of the pastor as their final authority and not the Bible, is so true in most churches, and it is a scary and awful thought, and I know that is so often the case. Ever since I was a child I basically knew this, and it is becoming more and more evident with the passing years.

As Jesus said, we must truly be as wise as serpents in a world of wolves. I still believe God has an amazing plan to tear apart their lies, and expose their ways, but that is a whole different subject.
---Anne on 12/10/08


Samuel, If a person has truely converted to Christ he will never lose the love for Christ or ever lose his faith, because it was given by God, no passage says He takes His love or faith away. I believe we are forgiven completely. I believe we can never love to sin again. That the Spirit will convict us and we feel that conviction. I believe that when you truely love Christ, you will do everything possible to learn about Him and follow Him. We are called to walk in the Spirit, the reason we are called to do that is because many don't. If it was possible to always walk in the Spirit we wouldn't need God to remind us. Christ will do everything possible to keep us save. Even to allow us to fall to temptation to bring a stronger faith in Him.
---MarkV. on 12/10/08


Anne, I had experiences in different churches, Rcc and nonRcc. Yes, they informed me as to what was going on and how a lot of satanists have entered the fold and are in positions of power. This could not have been the case before Vatican 2 which more or less took away the priests control over the church he pastored. Now any old satanist can be a leader in a church and decide to replace the Word of God with a song, and such like practices. The non Rcc churches showed that they were controlled by the Rcc church. Eg. the top down leadership in which everyone had to take the word of the pastor as the final authority. The way they excommunicate anyone for the least reason.
---frances008 on 12/9/08


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Frances~ Are you referring to the verse in Amos 8:11-12? "Behold, I will send a famine on this land, not for bread or water, but hearing the words of the Lord. They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord, but shall not find it." (paraphrased)

It's funny, my husband was raised Catholic, and I write ALL over my Bible, because I love to read it and note the parts that really stand out to me. My husband was in a bit of shock when he first saw how I did that since that is seen as rather forbidden to many Catholics. But I can't help it, because just like it is with you, I want to know the Bible inside out.
---Anne on 12/9/08


Frances~ No, I do not have subconscious dreams concerning false teachers, and even if I did have such dreams, I would place no trust in that, but in the Word of God alone. I believe the devil deceives many through things such as dreams, visions etc., and I do not believe God works through things of that nature any more. I don't really trust intuition too much either.

Yes, I know by my own personal experiences concerning false teachers. (and comparing to the Bible's teachings) I get a laugh out of my husband's personal experiences with the RCC because he's a no nonsense common sense type person. How about you? What were some of your experiences with churches that brought you to these realizations?
---Anne on 12/9/08


It says in the Bible that as the end times come, people will seek the word of God and will not be able to find it.

Anne, everything you say is so true. The only place you can be sure of not getting a false view of how to be saved, is by going to the Bible itself.

How did you find out that this (false teachers) was the case? Even though it is prophesied in the Bible as a future event, we know by our own experience, intuition, and comparing what is said with the Bible. Sometimes God tells us through our subconscious dreams.
---frances008 on 12/9/08


You are correct Mark in CHRIST JESUS we are saved. But to walk in hate means you are not in CHRIST JESUS.

The Problem with those who oppose this is that they must ignore Scripture which states that those who hate others and do not forgive cannot be forgiven.

By the way JESUS loves sinners even those sinners who go to die in hell. But being loved by GOD does not mean that you are saved. Many will be lost.

There are many who teach that a person can be saved while living in and loving sin more then GOD. All they have to do is say certain phrases then they are saved even though they live for the devil.
---Samuel on 12/9/08


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Mark V.~ I agree. My deep concern is that so many priests/preachers/people are falsely comforting their followers and telling them that they are absolutely saved and secure with the Lord. It upsets me that these priests/preachers aren't urging others to not trust in baptism, confirmation, sinners prayers etc. but to seek God's word with all their heart to make absolute sure they are truly saved and walking with the Lord. (Faith comes by the word of God.)

I know the falling away is inevitable, but as a born again believer I feel an intense need to warn other of these falacies with all my heart.
---Anne on 12/9/08


Anne, the righteousness imputed to the believer is never separated or removed by God. No where is that taught in Scripture under the Covenant of Grace. "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ"
God warns us through His Word. We should know that already "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" and "That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" Not one will be lost. No one can separate us from the Love of God. No one, not even ourselves because no one means everyone. Man does sin, we have an Advocate, Christ Jesus who speaks on our behalf. The Spirit helps us because we are convicted of sin and we respond with remorse for what we have done. We are sustained by Christ, 1 Cor. 1:7-9.
---MarkV. on 12/9/08


Anne, I believe there is no need to say such things about a true Christain. Since the person saying such things does not know the heart of the person whether he is saved or not has no right to say them. Only God knows who is save and who isn't.
Besides that, just knowing the Truth or just following Christ does not mean that person has committed his life to Christ by faith, maybe they have never done that, maybe they were on the verge of committing and they fall away. Knowledge of the truth saves no one. It is not until God gives a person a spiritual life, the heart to perceive, eyes to see, and ear's to hear the Lord that he is saved. Our lives are transforming for that is what rebirth is. They are not going backwards but forwards by faith.
---MarkV. on 12/9/08


Mark V.~ We are living in such intensely perilous times. Preachers are seldom warning people to walk pure. Sin is so rampant like a vast flood chasing us down. Satan is ruling this wicked world with everything's he's got. It is soo easy to go astray and find ourselves deep in grieveous sin. The consequence of turning from righteousness is separation from God, if we die in those sins.

Fortuneately even if preachers won't warn us, the Bible strongly warns us to take diligent heed of ourselves, beware of false teachers, how we must endure to the end etc.
Born again believers need to be more diligent than ever.
---Anne on 12/8/08


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The Bible say's, it's better if a man never knew the truth, than to of known it and go back to your OLD WAY'S/SINS...

I believe it may even say, that it would have been better if that person had NEVER been born.
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 12/8/08


Mark~(Part 1)I wish it was as simple as you said. There is great evidence that Solomon was once very very right with God, but unfortuneately Solomon was not careful and was led astray (I Kings 11:4-6). I Kings 11:9: "So the Lord became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned from the Lord."

Many areas of the Bible tell of those who went astray/were backslidden, but that God had mercy on those who returned with all their heart and soul. (Deut.Ch. 30, IIChron.6:37-39, Isa. 55:7, Jer.3:14-15, IKings 8:48, Ezek. 3:19-21 etc.)
---Anne on 12/8/08


Just because some of those who like wallowing in the mud call themselves Christians, it does not make them such. Just like those who claim to be born again and continue to ENJOY sin, are not really born again.
---frances008 on 12/8/08


Duane even Satan believes, and he knows he is not going to Heaven.
---frances008 on 12/8/08


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Anne, the example in Ezekiel 3 you gave is about a person who was under the dominion of the law by doing what was right, but fell into sin and God took his life in chastisement. The "stumbling block" was a stone of judgment that kills. This death was physical death. (ps 119:165) says, The crushing stone always fall's on the disobedient. (1 Cor. 11:30 James 1:21, 1 John 5:16). The people of Israel had long abandoned that severe standard of purification so God took execution back into His own hands, as in the distruction of Israel, Juda, and Jerusalem. Obedience and disobedience to God's messages was a matter of live or death. This people always rejected the Lord so were never under the Covenant of Grace. Only certain individuals were.
---MarkV. on 12/8/08


Anne, I don't believe any true born again Christian endwelled by the Spirit wollows in the mud. Your example about Solomon gives no evidence he was saved to began with. Only certain few in the Old Testament were even endwelled by the Spirit. David was and he did fall, but God restored him because he was save. All people fail, some God allows to fall deep in order to bring them to repentance. He works with His children and chastens them. For if someone is not been chasten he is not a partaker of Christ. But to assume that true born of the Spirit children of God wollow in the mud is to give the distinction that the children of God are as the children of the devil. And we are not like them.
---MarkV. on 12/8/08


(Mark V. please note)
Gordon~ What you said makes sense. God does have standards and requirements and we must learn to walk in His ways.

I often wonder about Solomon...What a wise man he was, certainly he knew the ways of the Lord clear as day. Yet, like you said Gordon, God does have standards and requirements, and it is my understanding certain wives of Solomon led his heart astray from the Lord.

To go astray/backslide is like 'wallowing in the mud.' Even the wisest man, and most changed man is capable of being led astray.

Read Ezekial 3:20 which tells us how if a righteous man turns from his righteousness he shall die in his sin. We must warn each others of our sins so we do not go astray but stay on the narrow path.
---Anne on 12/8/08


Gordon, Obedience is not a option. All that are born again will obey, some more then others. No one to the same extend. They are born unto good works. If they produce no works before God they are not of God. For all who are born of the Spirit are children of God and all are been transformed because rebirth is the beginning of our spiritual life with Christ and all are been sanctified and are sustained by Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/8/08


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Duane D. No true Christian wollows in the mud as you so clearly point out. First of all you have no idea who really is a true Christian and who is lost for sure. You cannot see their hearts to know.
You make a statement that contradicts the working of the Holy Spirit in a true believer.
You are suggesting that God saves people for heaven and this people are wollowing in the mud, suggesting God must have not known they would betray Him later. Why save them in the first place? Did He save them to see if they would trust Him or not? God is Omniscience.
What we do know is that, if anyone is truely saved, he is a new creation been transformed. So your answer is completely false since you don't know if they are saved or not.
---MarkV. on 12/8/08


Yes, There ARE actually stipulations to entering Heaven. Yes, the Blood of YAHUSHUA paid the Price of the remission of Sin. But, GOD demands that anyone who wants to follow Him, and live in His Heaven, must try to walk in HOLINESS, and forgive those who sin against us, just as He forgave us of our past sins. Being a follower of GOD really is a Two-Way Street. We Saints are supposed to co-operate with Him, if we expect to grow and make ourselves ready to enter His Pearly Gates. This, btw, is not "Salvation by works". GOD has Standards, and Requirements, and His people are to learn to walk in His Ways. If we don't, we are in disobedience and therefore SIN, which leads to Hell.
---Gordon on 12/8/08


Look to the power of the Cross, HE came to put sin away. It is finished. Thy faith shall save you. If you dont put your faith in the Cross, there is no hope for you. To quote verses of scripture out of context will not save. Even satan can quote scripture. WHERE IS YOUR FAITH?
---duane on 12/8/08


Just as a Christian who continues to wollow in the mud from which they was once cleaned/washed, aint a "Christian" no More.

Do you want the verse that "Jesus" say's,
His Blood is of NO effect on those who continue in their sins?...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 12/7/08


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I've never read anything about Forgiving ones self to obtain forgivness from God...

One must forgive "OTHERS" to be forgiven.

If, you cannot forgive others of there trespasses against you, How can God forgive you of ALL your sins/trespasses against HIM?

Those are our Lords words, Live by them!

That's part of the Lords Prayer, Right?
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 12/7/08


Jesus our Lord and Saviour said " we are to forgive ourself or he would not forgive us" I personally forgive everyone who tresspasses against me and who ever. It is best to obey or Lord, Forgive
---Robert on 12/7/08


All HAVE sinned and come short. A Christian is a saint and has NOT come short. Jesus Christ has made this so. HE has given us HIS righteousness. A Christian is NOT a sinner anymore.
---duane on 12/6/08


Trey, you said it well. I don't see what the fuss is about. Everyone who is save should have faith in Christ. Not that He exist but that they trust in Him. Faith is the instrumental cause of justification because in that faith is the means by which the merits of Christ are appropriated to us. If you don't have that faith, you don't believe that Jesus merits are appropriated to you. This faith is a living faith, not an empty profession of faith. Faith is personal trust that clings to Christ alone for salvation. Many here want to say that our works clings to Christ but it is our personal trust in Christ alone that saves us.
---MarkV. on 12/6/08


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Trey, 2, Many people here on line assume that by trying to live a good life, they have done all that is necessary to get to heaven. They rest in their own confidence on the good works they have done to satisfy the demands of God's justice but they are wrong. Since we are not perfect and God's laws requires perfection we lack the necessary goodness to enter heaven. What man needs is a perfect sacrifice which is found only in Christ. His merits are perfect and is made available to us through Faith.
Second, to believe that we are justified by our good works apart from faith is to embrace the heresy of legalism.
---MarkV. on 12/6/08


We are all sinners (Rom 3:10...). We are sinners by nature and we are sinners by practice. When we fail to forgive or have mercy on others, we suffer for those sins here in time. Here in time, we are denied blessings. The Apostle Peter denied that he knew Christ, yet Christ didn't cast him asside.

Before God we stood condemend, seperated from God because of our sins (Isa 59:2-15 describes our state.
Isa 59:16 God seeing our condition, the condition of mankind is amazed.
Isa 59:17 God therefore manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) comes and redeems his children.

Are we then more powerful than God? Can we seperate ourselves from his love? (Rom 8:35)

---trey on 12/5/08


Concerning BELIEF, here are my thoughts:

Witness #1
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Witness #2
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Twice Christ assures us that if one believes in him they have eternal life. John 11:26 clarifies this quite a bit when Christ adds the word "liveth". James 2:19 says that the devils believe, but we know they don't have spiritual life. The Holy Spirit gives us life, and our belief assures us that we have eternal life and that we will not perish.

I do not believe that anyone that has spiritual life, will ever enter hell.
---trey on 12/5/08


There's alot of people in Hell that believe Jesus is who he said he was/is, they just couldn't walk the walk when it came to being doer's of the word, his words didn't abide in them therefore he abide's not in them and the Love of God is not upon them nor are his ear's or eye's upon them...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 12/5/08


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Rebecca,
I never said "if one believes in God they repented of their sins" I said, if one believes(faith) they HAVE repented(turned from unbelief to belief). Faith comes by hearing the Gospel. When we believe/trust(faith) in HIM/Gospel, we have turned(repented) from unbelief to faith in HIM. Upon faith in HIM we receive the forgiveness of sin and a new mind change(repentance that comes from God)
..... We have a new life.....
---duane on 12/5/08


Duane: You said on 12-2 that faith and repentance are the same and if one believes in God then they repented of their sins. That is not true in anyway. I know a lot of people that believe in God and know that he is real but are sinners, never have been born again in Christ. And besides if what you say is true, then Hell would not be inlarging itself. Before a person converts over to Christ, they must first believe that God is real, then have faith God saved them from hell, then they can repent and trust that God forgave them of their sins. A person can believe in God all they want and still die lost and go to hell.
---Rebecca_D on 12/4/08


Kathr, can I ask kindly why you said the last verse? " James is the book on sanctification....not your initial justification by faith in Jesus Christ'
You must have had a reason for putting that. Just a simple question because I wanted to know the meaning of why you threw that in after "you gave a great answers that I totally agree with."
---MarkV. on 12/4/08


The point is that works is not the cause of salvation but the evidence there is salvation.
---MarkV. on 12/3/08
Exactly MarkV, and the works here is actually obedience, for true faith manifests itself in obedience to the voice of God. This is why those who say Christians can sin and lose their salvation are actually saying without realizing it, that they do not manifest GOD'S work in and through them...( for they themselves do not have the Testamony of Christ in them to speak of HIS mighty works and give Him the Glory) and are ignorant of what our sanctification is....totally the work of Christ in us.

James is a book on sanctification.....not your initial justification by Faith in Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/08


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Mark V.~ Yes, that is right,works is not the cause of salvation but the evidence there is salvation. I'm quite sure that is what Eloy has been saying too.

Thanks for the nice words, and you have always been kind to me too which I appreciate. Yes, I have run into a few that really try my patience on these blogs...but that is to be expected. I know the Bible continuously tells us that we are to teach and exhort others in gentleness and kindness etc. so I try to follow the Holy Spirit's leading. I just try to speak to others as I would want to be spoken to...I'm far from perfect, but growing bit by bit.
---Anne on 12/3/08


Eloy~ Yes I agree with what you just said 100%...being a Christian is not about lip-service, but diligently living in obedience. It's amazing how many churches out there don't teach that we need to diligently follow the word of God, but they often teach that we are under God's saving grace if we have been through church confirmation, do good deeds etc. Rarely, do we ever hear that we must live in obedience not to what a CHURCH says, but to what the BIBLE says. Yes, let us follow the Holy Spirit in every part of our lives, and let us always have love for one another.
---Anne on 12/3/08


The point is that works is not the cause of salvation but the evidence there is salvation.
---MarkV. on 12/3/08
AMEN to that brother!
This evidence of salvation is Christ's light in us. This Light guides those who are in sin to salvation.
This is why God can save anyone and God can choose anyone.
If all Christians would let their Light shine instead of hiding it under a bushel,
there would be so many more in the Body of Christ.
But, we do have some bitter Christians.
---miche3754 on 12/3/08


Kathr that was a great answer. You explained works very well. That is the way I see works in the life of a believer. James was not contradicting Paul, he was making the endwelling of the Spirit in our lives clear. That everyone who is save are save unto good works. That is the reason that Christ gets all the glory. Because it is the Spirit who is working through us.
The point is that works is not the cause of salvation but the evidence there is salvation.
---MarkV. on 12/3/08


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A-men Anne, you are right. The bottom line is obedience. When one worships and obeys Christ as their only God, then they are in grace: but when one does not worship nor obey Christ's Commandments, then they are in sin and condemned no matter what lip-service they say, or if they falsely say they are Christian and in grace or whatever falsehood they say. For indeed the tree is known by the fruit that it bears, whether it be from Christ or not.
---Eloy on 12/2/08


.duane, I already clearly defined grace, and what you posted is a mistranslation of scripture which does not teach grace, but instead shows the payment by Christ the Innocent One for the sins of the repentant. lit Gk: "For hardly for a just one somebody will die, for on behalf of the good perhaps somebody yet dares to die, but God which introduced of his love toward us, because besides being of the offenders, of us Christ for us died." Romans 5:7,8.
---Eloy on 12/2/08


A-men Anne. Continue to let your light so shine in front of people that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven, for by this will all know that you are Christian, if you have love one to another.
---Eloy on 12/2/08


Ephesians 2:8-10 state we are saved by Grace(the Cross) through faith. It is a gift of God...not of works...now verse 10 state we are HIS workmanship created In Christ unto Good works, that God forordained that we should walk in.

Anyone who says they are saved, and do not have the WORKS of Christ manifest in their lives is not saved.

James is a PERFECT counterpart to verse 10 here in Ephesians 2:8-10. James says...faith without works (Christ working in us)is dead. Faith manifests OBEDIENCE. It is the WORKS OF FAITH, faith WORKING through LOVE. This Love is the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Compare James 1 to the beginning of Romans 5.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/08


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markv you are correct.
But
God does things to confound the wise.
He raises one up and puts another down.
He softens hearts and he hardens them.
It is God who gave his only begotten son- Jesus to save us all.
God does not want a single human being to perish, brother.
Hell was never built for us.
It was built for satan and his fallen followers.
Anyone can be saved.
Predestination does not mean "for sure you will be saved". It means that if you are in the right place, right time, and the Spirit Falls on you and you say "yes", God will most assuredly Save you.
We should not harden our hearts, We show Love. The light of God so that all will be saved!
---miche3754 on 12/2/08


Miche, he said, "markv, Works saves, but none work do not. I will leave you with this, no grace is given before works. None. You work first, then God's grace is granted to the soul, and not beforehand" 12/o1/08.
I've heard him preach a false gospel. He is suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was not good enough to save us, it needs our works. God say's,
"Therefore, since the promise of entering His (Christ) rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did, but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith" Heb. 4:1-2.
---MarkV. on 12/2/08


Anne, you are a good person and very kind answering. I love that. But let me say that as you continue on this website, you will run into people who will come at you with all the forces they have. You will try to answer as kindly as you can until you find out that we are very different in nature.

The children of God and the children of the enemy are not friends. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed" Her Seed is Christ and God's children, "between your seed" are the children of Satan found in John 8:44. They don't think alike, they do the desires of their father the devil, they cannot help it, it is their nature for they are under bondage to him who is sin.
---MarkV. on 12/2/08


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