Friendship is chosen brotherhood is given, so this your hope is more then willed as brothers we always need to work on the love and friendship in every Christ relation. as the bible says love is the first and formemost gift. as an apology for my brother pentecostals i would like to refer Martin Luthers teachings. when reading they seem to be so ANTIcatholic and to board on pure discrimination.however the reality was that cause catholic inquisition, he was in constant counterattackmode. this is the case with many pentecosts, who are attacked by those who should love them, therefore if any comes with a pure question pentecostals are readdy for battle. May God help us all to overcome the flesh.
---Andy on 3/30/09|
Andy, as a Pentacostal I was reminded of what Rhema meant. A Rhema is an illumination of some part of Scripture that the Holy Spirit brings to our attention, and many times it comes a second time to assure that we get what God is saying in a perticular passage that maybe we never spiritually understood before.
Andy, you are a good guy and it's nice to talk to you. I am sorry I don't agree with tongues. I believe that when I ran into the questions I had concerning the Holy Spirit, and then later found out how many people that believe tongues got angry, I came to the understanding it could not be good, or helpful in anyway for anyone. I hope we remain friends and just discuss Scripture.
---MarkV. on 3/29/09|
Very infrequently, but...
To the best of my knowledge, the Bible uses the theme full of the Spirit in four specific ways: *1 wisdom in order to complete a work, *2 wisdom in general, *3 of prophecy, and *4 it is extant when we help our brother(s). This might be better explained as an overflowing of the Spirit.
*1 Exodus 28:3, 31:3, 35:30-35, Judges 6:34, Acts 6:3
*2 Deuteronomy 34:9, Judges 13:25, 14:6, 15:14, Proverbs 18:4, Luke 2:40, John 3:34
*3 1Chronicles 12:18, 2Chronicles 24:20, Luke 1:41, Acts 2:2-4 (tongues), 13:9, > Balaam: Numbers 22:35, 23:5-10, 16-24, 24:2-9, 15-24, Saul: 1Sam 10:10, 11:6, 19:23 & 24.
*4 John 4:14, 7:38, including diversities of gifts, ministrations, & workings.
---Glenn on 3/27/09|
Markv, for your info, the rhema word is in this case, the spoken word of God (since one meaning of rhema is "a spoken word" which is used in proclamation. something like, The bible sais: By His stripes you are healed. added by a confession of faith something like: therfore i receive my healing in Jesus name. or therefore receive your healing in Jesus name! these are acts of faith but need to be done in accordance with the bible words. however a rhema can also be a tongue yes or not accompanied by the explenation of that tongue.
as being a pentacostalist im only a simple orthodox pentacostal, who believes that the apostolic time is ,not over yet.
---Andy on 3/27/09|
Andy, your discription of the Rhema I believe is wrong. But that is ok if it doesn't confuse you. When you say Pentecostals, you have to decide also which one's you are talking about, Neo Pentacostal, Charasmatic or none charasmatic. The three don't have the same believes. I've been there done that.
We are all tongues speakers depending from which country you are from and what languages you have learned. The tongues spoken of in Scripture were different languages. And to speak in a different tongues there would have to be interpreters to explain what it is the person is saying. Girbbish speaking tongue was never a part of the Word of God.
---MarkV. on 3/25/09|
MarkV, it is rather the tonguespeaker who understand the connection between the logos and the rhema. the rhema cannot be without the logos. and to bring the logos in a rhema is one main aspect of proclaiming the logos written word, and Christ the word) alive. every pentecostal is a sollid bible founded believer. and yes Gods power is in the word.
---Andy on 3/24/09|
Andy, I can very much understand your point since you live in an area where Jesus is not mentioned. And I can see how tongues can bring some king of an image concerning the power of God. But you have to remember the power is now in the Word of God because it is complete. We cannot deceive anyone to come to Christ or force them to come. It is a real revival when the Gospel of Christ is given to many who never heard of the gospel and after completion find that so many want to come to Christ. I have seen a video's of a big group in some jungle, hearing word translated by an Indian with pictures and at the end of the classes the people rejoiced and sang when they found out Jesus resurrected. It was awsome. Now they spread the gospel to others.
---MarkV. on 3/23/09|
Markv. now that is finally an open answer. nevertheless you also need to admit that this doctrine of tongue and tongues is nothing but an unprovable interpretation.
Again, it is really not helpfull to anyone to put a meaning in a word that just cannot be proven, it only incriminates the speaker of being falseminded ( wether he's right or wrong). as you, I also do not believe one has to speak in tongues before being saved, and to be consumed By Gods almighty grace.
---Andy on 3/23/09|
2. Markv however, as i have the experience and priveledge of working and ministring amongst pagans, idolworshippers demonworshippers witches and muslims, i must say that the points you make why tongues would have seased is exactely why we here in Africa and Asia accept so willingly tongues as from God. We also believe that the apostate western church needs this proof as a judgement upon your abandonning Christ. and if you look at the state of Western churches you might understand why we think this way.
---Andy on 3/23/09|
Andy, I didn't pull scripture out of context. What I gave is advice into the language Paul used when speaking of tongue, or tongues. Again you didn't have to agree. I never said tongues was real or not. It was just a help. Then you ask me other questions and I answered you. I don't think I was arguing with anyone or disagreeing with anyone.
The same thing happened at work many years ago. I ask a few questions concerning the Holy Spirit and gifts, they got angry, told me they didn't want to discuss it, and they never spoke to me again. I didn't understand what made them so mad. It was like I was attacking them with a knife. I couldn't see what I did wrong. I was a baby Christian and never heard of tongues before. So I had questions.
---MarkV. on 3/21/09|
Andy, 2, I don't believe that tongues is for today. They ceased at the end of the apostolic age. 1 Cor. 13:8-9, "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail, whether there is tongues, it will vanish away." The uniqueness of the gift of languages and its interpretation was, as all sign gifts, to authenticate the message and messages of the gospel before the New Testament was completed (Heb. 2:3,4). Tongues was also limited by being a judicial sign from God of Israel's judgment (14:21, 28:11,12). Tongues were not a sign for believers, but unbelievers (14:22). Specifically those unbelieving Jews. Tongues also ceased because there was no need to verify the true messages from God once the Scripture was given.
---MarkV. on 3/21/09|
for those who claim they are speaking in "tongues" which language are you speaking when you are in "tongue mode"?
Gods Holy Spirit is a GIFT from God DWELLING in TRUE Christians
demons OVERTAKE a person
---Rhonda on 3/21/09|
MARKV2. when i'm angry it is a quite natural emotion who even might be used by the Holy Spirit to help protect me.
what also makes me to explode, forgive for that, is that those against tongues have not been afraid to pull the bible out of its context just to make a point. which i see you also have done. As far I care, you might even be trying to deffend a certain way of tongues that is accepted in certain churches, and BRAVO. nevertheless that does by no means justifies someone changing the meaning of words and so violating the word, only to be accepted by a bunch of others.
ex. i believe that God uses women in the five-fold ministry, however i can not reject what the bible says about women usurping authority over men.
---Andy on 3/20/09|
MarkV, now answer my question boldly, and i prommise that i will not get angry as you suppose. Do you speak in Tongues,
or do you believe you should have them?
you see, those speakin in a different tongue do not reject anyone who wishes not to have it, it is everybody's free choice. still we do ghet angry if someone accuses us of having given us volontarely up to demons, especially when that person is supposed to be a brother in Christ. a thing, which i believe you will understand.
---Andy on 3/20/09|
Mark what questions did you ask?
were you refering to tongues making you sin?
if so, how and way do you think that?
---batieste on 3/19/09|
Andy, I knew if I answered you about tongues you were not going to be able to sustain yourself. You didn't have to agree with the advice I had or believe it. Andy, you are no different then many who speak tongues, they get angry when someone brings the subject up who don't agree with tongues been for today. That is what I call pride. Big time pride.
After I took the class. I wanted someone to help me understand that topic at our bible study at my work, and two people never spoke to me again. Every time I asked a question, they got angrier. I was not debating tongues with them, I didn't know anything about it, and was only asking questions. Do you really believe God would give you something that would cause you to sin? I don't think so.
---MarkV. on 3/19/09|
Andy is correct. Crying in itself is not a sign of unstableness. However, some that are suffering by Satan, depression, ect could cause them to weep. In any case, I seldom cry in the flesh.... God simply will not allow it because He says, "Others could see it as a sign of weakness". [Please Remember God deals with each one of His children on an individual bases]. Crying in the Spirit, I do. Lots of times I wanted to just boohoo all over the place. No can do.
---catherine on 3/18/09|
Mima Crying is not unsableness, it is an expression of our inmost feelings. and as such to be regarded from God and to be used by God
Jesus wept for Jerusalem
He laughed when they gave him report of the revival and liberation
he was furious angry seeing how they had turned the fathers house in a den of robbers
afraid in the garden
all emotions divinely used. However i do have some questions if someone has these emotions uncontrolably: and i always ask does it build the kingdom, or do the outsiders ghet afraid, does it bring people closer or does it chase away.
---Andy on 3/18/09|
I believe it is our emotions that make us cry. And for that reason I said our emotions become unstable, why unstable, because we cry.
I realize not all crying falls under this category.
---mima on 3/17/09|
***What it is is the Holy (indwelling) Spirit rising up in you and your emotions becoming unstable hence you begin to cry.***
Mima, when someone is in the Power of the Holy Spirit, our emotions do not become UNSTABLE. That is Flesh flesh flesh becoming unstable.
God doesn't work through our emotions, ( however Satan does!!!)but our New Man is strengthened by MIGHT in the inner man.
When I see the lady who is married to who ever his name is on that CNN or whatever that station is...and she's always crying crying crying, personally I'm not moved by her emotions at all..quite the opposite.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/09|
Nevertheless Mark at the same time you acuse me of not being open, open to whati ask, a false doctrine? another fancy teaching that carresses the flesh. i admit i am not. as you might remember, in the beginning wwhen i entered in this discussion i said i needed to check out two things for you mentioned certain things i had not heard before, when however i point out to you that what you uphold is not true you start to twist and patronuise as if i couldnt read nor write for my own. is this not the exact sign of this you accuse me (silencly) from is also to be found with you.
---Andy on 3/16/09|
Recently a new soulwinner came to me with this question. I am suffering uncontrollable crying spells. You know what this is? It always seemed to take place when I am witnessing.
My reply to him was yes I know of two or three other people who have uncontrollable crying spells, and I myself have had events such as this in the past.
What it is is the Holy (indwelling) Spirit rising up in you and your emotions becoming unstable hence you begin to cry. I have just gotten a telephone call from Panam Beach Florida where this man is witnessing the college students on spring break. And he is come to agree with my analysis.
---mima on 3/16/09|
MarkV, far be it from me to be angry. problem is that you longer see what is true. proof i take is that you accept a study about tongues to be true whilst that studie gives points so stupid one would like to vommit. again bible interpretation is about what doctrinal vieuw one follows.
NOWHERE in the NT paul differentiated false and true tongues by putting them in the singular or multiple. so tongue and tongues do no differentiate between divine and demonic. i ghot this from a Greek scolar who is not a pentecostal but honnest about the meaning.as a fact, I would rather expected this scolar to agree with this point made, yet he admitted that this did not help the discussion, since it is a fault that can be discovereed so easely.
---Andy on 3/16/09|
yes mark thats is what i meant..
you said that you were pentacostal? so you have spoken in tongues then?
can you tell me about your first experience, what you felt?
---batieste on 3/13/09|
What do you mean? If you mean that the spirit of meekness, quietness and gentleness takes over, then the answer is yes.
---Delbert_W._Whaley on 3/1/09
OH I love that Delbert....and also lets not forget the Spirit of Love Joy Peace,and especially SELF CONTROL, LONG SUFFERING.
Let's pray that we are all growing in the Lord so much, that we are consumed by the Holy Spirit in all we do and say!
Actually mima, I do see this when someone feels like punching out someone's lights but gives them a hug instead!!!
---kathr4453 on 3/13/09|
Andy, if you want to have a godly discussion, don't get angry. I was trying to help you on interpretations issues. I am not against what you believe, at least I don't know yet. But if you got yourself some Lexicons or good Bible Wordstudy books, you would know that to be true.
Second, when you want to make a point, don't just throw the whole chapter like you did, with Romans, 12 and 14. Write down what passages and we can discuss them in a godly manner. I don't wish to argue with you, I was trying to help.
Andy, you are speaking to a former Pentacostal. I've been there, done that. I have learned to study the passages correctly. It take to be humble, knowing that maybe what I knew was not right after all.
---MarkV. on 3/13/09|
batieste, You said, "the book corithians was written for the saints... for people that already spoke in tongues.... that way the apostle who wrote it was telling the saints not to go speaking in tongues amung people that dont have it...yet.. they wouldnt understand?"
You said Paul was speaking to saints, meaning those who spoke in tongues been the saints and the others who didn't speak in tongues were supposely not saints. Are you suggesting that only the one's who speak in tongues are saints? The Corinthians problem was that they were very arrogant and carnal even as far as to excuse "sexual immoraltiy". All I did was answer Andy to help him and he takes it wrong, thinking I am challenging him or tongues.
---MarkV. on 3/13/09|
Thanks Batieste, but you forget you are answerring some Anti pneumatists who rather wished all gifts ansd specifically tongues could go back into that pit of obliat. nevertheless Tongues are here, and they are here to stay (at least until the perfect has come.
---Andy on 3/12/09|
the book corithians was written for the saints... for people that already spoke in tongues.... that way the apostle who wrote it was telling the saints not to go speaking in tongues amung people that dont have it...yet.. they wouldnt understand? he said that he speaks in tongues more than anyone... and that people that speak in tongues dont speak to men but to god..
---batieste on 3/11/09|
Paul uses the singular to distinguish the counterfeit gift of pagan gibberish and the plural to indicate the genuine gift of a foreign language.
"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God" at first sounds great but is the wrong interpretation MarkV 2/26/09.
1 You must be Joking, So Paul effectively istinguished linguistically between idols in chapter 8 and 10, and for some unknown reason he could not do this in chapters 12 and 14. this i all twisting the scriptures to make a point.
---Andy on 3/4/09|
Andy, again you have it wrong. I was not speaking from a denominational stand point. Classes I take come from those given by a number of teachers from different denominations who work together to teach the word of God. The essentials of the Christian faith are all the same. The none essentials are of little importance. We have many speakers that come from many denominations. The subject of Tongues began at Pentecost, and of course Paul did not write Acts, but Paul was the one who was upset at how the gifts of the Spirit were been used and He of all writers spoke more on the gift of tongues then any other. Andy, there is no bias here. If it doesn't help you intepret, then its ok. Nothing lost.
---MarkV. on 3/3/09|
MarkV Glosen Glossa, glossai and glossais are the four forms used intermingled, and they are used in a verry loose way by the writers of the New testament. however this fact can never make your point hard. Paul was indeed wise enough not to just use Theos in its indiffenate form so leaving place to guess Whenever Paul used the word theos, he would add socalled or anything to indicate he was talking about false gods or not and normally he would not even use god but daemoneon or diabolos and even satan
ex. 1st Corinthians 8.5-6 and 1st Corinthians 10. So if Paul wrote so carefully in 1st Corinthians 8 and 10, why was he so neglective in 13 and 14 as to make us doubt where this tongue comes from? besides acts was NOT written by Paul.
---Andy on 3/2/09|
MarkV 2/27/09 I was taking a two year course on salvation and the gifts of the Spirit was a big part of the class.
MarkV 2/24/09"Andy, I never speak from a denominational standpoint... I answered from the word of God in Acts2:5-15.
don't you know that doctrine is always based upon Denominational Knowledge? so the two years you took classes, a denominational teacher ghot up every day or week and told you his denominational beliefs( wether or not the teacher wants to admit it.
---Andy on 3/2/09|
What do you mean? If you mean that the spirit of meekness, quietness and gentleness takes over, then the answer is yes.
---Delbert_W._Whaley on 3/1/09|
David, 2, I believe that Paul was very aware of the misuse of the gifts of the Spirit by the believers, the reason for chap. 13 between 12 and 14. Especially the gift of tongues. The temporary sign of miracles was for the working of divine acts contrary to nature, so that there was no explanation for the action except that it was by the power of God. This too was to authenticate Christ and the apostolic teachers of the gospel. John 2:11 notes that Jesus did His miracle at Cana to "manisfest His glory" not to enhanced party, for John's purpose for recording the miracles of Jesus in this gospel 20:30,31, and Acts 2:22 affirms that Jesus did miracles to "attest" that God was working through Him.
---MarkV. on 2/28/09|
David, thanks for the insight. About "tongues of angels" I had already look at that phrase over and over some time ago and could not find anywhere or any reason why Paul would use "tongues of angels" Here is why, because there is no biblical teaching of any special angelic language that people could learn to speak. I believe Paul was writing in general hypothical terms. Like: "What good would it be for me to talk to man and to angels, because without love I am like a sounding brass"
Concerning denominations, I believe it's best to not believe everything each one teaches unless Scripture is clear about the subject. Too many here on line speak on behalf of the denomination and compromise the Word of God.
---MarkV. on 2/28/09|
Hi MarkV, a follow-on question since you have more background in this. In I Corinthians 13, what is meant by tongues of angels? BTW, I liked you comment on denominationalism. I was not raised in a denomination other than to consider myself in the living body of the lord Jesus and yet I still find myself sorting out ideas that came down through generations family and friends, many were good and espoused by their prior denominations, some not so much. Ironically it hasn't been the bad ideas that have caused the most harm in my family but the good ones that my family then became prideful about. I feel in some ways we have relived the Jewish experience.
Cheers and keep up the good works.
---DavidA on 2/27/09|
David, this is a very touchy subject for a group of Christians, Pentecostals. The word Tongue and Tongues have different meaning and the reason that the KJV translators added consistently the word "unknown" before every singular form, (vv. 2,4,13,19,27). There is only one exception, this is found in vv. 27,28, where it refers to a single person speaking a single genuine language. I gave the information so that a correct interpretation can be made.
David, the word is "Glossa', and broken into two, "Glossais" the other word is "glossai" This can be found when you check the original word with a Lexical Aid. I was taking a two year course on salvation and the gifts of the Spirit was a big part of the class.
---MarkV. on 2/27/09|
MarkV, this is not a subject I have ever felt led into perusing but I have wondered about. I know many folks make the distinction between a prayer tongue and a foreign language sort of tongue and most of everything I hear folks talking about seems to be the former although its quite easy to see the utility in the latter (and easy to see that the tongues in acts were of the latter). As much as this makes me uncomfortable to even consider this, I am not afraid and will go along with it for the moment. Is this something you have researched considerably? Is it something you have felt in your heart was out of place and felt called to expose? Do you mind providing a little more perspective on how you got to this conclusion.
---DavdA on 2/26/09|
Andy, for some reason or another, and although it is not indicated consistently in some translations, the distiction between the singular tongue and the plural tongues is foundational to a proper interpretation. Paul uses the singular to distinguish the counterfeit gift of pagan gibberish and the plural to indicate the genuine gift of a foreign language.
If you first read 1 Cor. 14, v. 2, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God" at first sounds great but is the wrong interpretation. The word tongue (singular) is used here, and does not speak to men but to God really means "to a god." The Greek text has no definite article. If you see Acts 17:22,23, Unknown god."
---MarkV. on 2/26/09|
So what do You think? and how do you interpret this speaking in a tongue and speaking in tongues, by the way need toexamen this passage, since you made some interesting poiints i did not hear yet.
---Andy on 2/25/09|
Andy, I never tried to explain to you what my believes were. Where I stood and what I think of the gift of tongues. All I did was try to help in the matter of interpretation so that I could help someone who had it wrong. I know at least 95% of the readers of Acts, 1 and 2 Corinthians, didn't know there was a distinction between the two words "Tongue and Tongues" in Scripture. Or What Paul used them differently. But the singular is gibberish words, and the Plural is different languages.
Now with the knowledge of one from the other, the passages mean something completely different then before. That is why it is important.
---MarkV. on 2/24/09|
"Andy, I never speak from a denominational standpoint... I answered from the word of God in Acts2:5-15 and the context of those passages and what was happening in Acts."
this was YOUR reply. So my question is nowWhat is your standpoint. for reading your last blog it seems to explain other things.
---Andy on 2/24/09|
Andy, you didn't bust any bubble really. When I answered you I aswered you with the intend of helping you intepret the passages correctly by making you aware that when the word "Tongue" and Tongues" were spoken by Paul, each meant something different. I also gave you Acts 2:5-15 in the context of both of the words. It was to edify you not to question your believes. I know many people who speak in "tongues" already.
---MarkV. on 2/23/09|
|Read These Insightful Articles About Education
as for a biblical prayer of repentance here is one example. Our father which is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thine Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven hive us today our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us, and llead us not into tezmptation, but deliver us from the evil one for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever amen, a quite goodsinners parayer according to me. maybe notin the modern way, yet it has all assets of a sinners prayer.
Giving glory to God, dedication, submission, repentance and praise.
---Andy on 2/23/09|
Mark, i regret to blow your independance bubble, but yes you do speak from a denominational point of vieuw, as we all do. lets face it, we are formed by theological teachings ever since the apostles creed. and believe me, there is nothing bad with that. it actually has kept the word of God up to this day. I'm a pentecostal of education, as you say, however 95 percent of the pentecostal doctrines are in reality baptist or methodist teachings, depending of our roots we the pentecostals will accepot or reject bishops. SO WHAT? i certainly do not believe one needs to speak in tongues or a tongue before being saved . to be saved is only through the name of Jesus.
---Andy on 2/23/09|
I obeyed Christ receiving this precious manifestation as i obeyed receiving the manifestation of falling in the Spirit. I know majority judges me for that, yet i do not care about that. all i know is that God expresses him in me because i allow Him. God expresses him in you in another way since you allow him that way. my experience of God Can build you, as your experience of God can build me. however not when both of us think the other is wrong.
---Andy on 2/23/09|
Mima, if you can see if you can find the booklet entitled "SEVEN REASONS NOT TO ASK JESUS INTO YOUR HEART" by Dennis Rosker.
It has good information. If you read it along with scripture, I am confident you will have second thoughts about having someone say the sinners prayer.
---Rob on 2/22/09|
---Rob look at this statement Romans 10:13,
" For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Special, certain words are not needed. The thief on the cross asked the Lord Jesus Christ to "remember me" and surely that qualified as a sinners prayer.
Because I work the streets and parks I have the sinners prayer that I lead people in ready. Many people object to this method. But when asked to describe their method they are totally at a loss to answer.
---mima on 2/22/09|
Mima, will you tell me where I can find the sinners prayer in the Bible?
The reason I ask is because through the years, I have heard people talk about the sinners prayer, but I have never been able to find it in the Bible.
---Rob on 2/22/09|
---jody the question referred to the different manifestations that overcomes people when the Holy Spirit comes upon them. One form of the could-be tongues, more often when on the street witnessing i see the Holy Spirit over take people and cause random behavior because of sheer joy from them. Recently I saw a person hugging another person's neck very enthusiasticly after the person had said the sinners prayer with the witness. I have seen many people become agitated and run around clapped their hands, and really many many other kinds of activity.
---mima on 2/22/09|
I know of someone who spoke in perfect Hebrew. The crazy part is that she did not ask for it, expect it or even know when it happened. It came at a time when she was hospitalized for severe depression. A nurse came to her, asked here if she spoke Hebrew and told her that she had spoke about Jesus in a perfect Hebrew dialect. I knew this women for many years and didn't doubt her for a second because she was the person who invited me on the journey of asking Jesus to guide my life and the person who planted the seed in me that the living god talks to us in our hearts. She did not belong to a denomination at least the way most people think of it. She described herself as belonging to the living body of the lord Jesus. She was my grand mother.
---DavidA on 2/21/09|
Andy ... You say "it seems verry clear to me that the foreigners could not explain how these Galileans where able to talk in their own tongue"
Yes ... but why do you say that means they did not know what they were saying? You seem to suggest that they just let rip with their voices and it came out in foreign languages.
But the story certainly not "exclude therefore the option of the apostles understanding what they said"
The miracle surely was that the apostles, knowing the message they were giving, were able to speak it in the other languages... or that the people were able to understand it, as if it were in their own tongue.
---alan_8566_of_Uk on 2/21/09|
Through the years I have learned most people who claim to speak in tongues have no clue what it means.
This is because they never have taken the time to study and see what tongues really means in the original language of Greek.
---Rob on 2/21/09|
Mima was your question about speaking in tongues? Or was it about doing Gods will through the power of the Holy Spirit? There are gifts that envolve the manifestation of the Spirit. Most obvious is prophecy. I think this should not be a point for contention since it is clearly outlined in the Bible. As Christians we should be seeking meet and not going backwards towards milk.
---jody on 2/21/09|
Andy, I never speak from a denominational standpoint. I was a Penticostal at one time for over seven years, so I know what you believe and think. I answered from the word of God in Acts2:5-15 and the context of those passages and what was happening in Acts. As I mentioned to Mima that you also have to be careful how you read the passages since Paul spoke about "tongues" and "tongue" both meaning to complete different things. One singular and the Plural. When he speaks in singular (Tongue) he is speaking gibberish, or (ecstitic utterances). When the word (Tongues) it is speaking about known languages. Just something to think about that can help you.
---MarkV. on 2/21/09|
Dear Mark, that is your denominational standpoint, the baptist official teaching really shines through (i am not saying you are a Baptist) however speaking in tongues has not only reached pentecostals, this is a movement that has entered every known western "non-heretical" denomination also, not only the uneducated yet even noted leaders within the church, however not pentecostal, do speak in tongues. If that ecstatic utterance had as reason judgement for Israel, then it is deffenatly needed in todays apostate church. Nevertheless, you are confusing the gift of tongues and its nessecary gift of interpretations with THE MANIFESTATION of tongues wich is a proof of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.
---Andy on 2/21/09|
Andy, the purpose of the tongues in Acts 2:5-13 in the context is talking about "with other tonues" first, was known languages (1 Cor.14:1-25) not ecstatic utterances. Second, these languages given by the Spirit were a sign of judgment to unbelieving Israel, (1 Cor. 14:21,22) where it says, "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people, And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me." Here is the clue, "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers, but prophyesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe" Tongues are useless for believers, "And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me"
---MarkV. on 2/20/09|
If one reads Acts 2 vers 2-19 it seems verry clear to me that the foreigners could not explain how these Galileans where able to talk in their own tongue. furthermore acts 4.13 confirms this idea of unlearned simple fisherman. One condition of a miracle is, that the one who receives something they cannot have ghotten it on any natural means, excluding therefore the option of the apostles understanding what they said. when it is written that they heard them speaking in their own tongue (verse 6-12)again it is obvious that it is a testimony from the crowd. How did Luke know it after wards? since this miracle caused a repentance of about 3000 men, who joined the church
---Andy on 2/20/09|
Andy, will you show where it is written in scripture that none of the Apostles understood a word of what they said?
---Rob on 2/19/09|
Rob, no offence taken whasoever. I totally agree with what is in that part of the bible, Yet when the apostles spoke in these new languages, none of the apostles understood a word of what they said. it was the bystanders who where asonnished. looking in 1 corinthiens 13 even if i would speak in an angels tongue, Paul was reffering to speaking in tongues. further when Paul was correcting misuses in the corinthian church he expressed he wished all to speak in tongues, adding that however he would prefer all to prophecy.since, he said, whoever speaks in tongues edifies his spirit, whoever profecies builds the church
---Andy on 2/19/09|
OOPS!!! In my last post, I wrote ANY, when I meant to to address it to Andy.
I sincerely apologize to Andy for that.
---Rob on 2/18/09|
Any, you asked the question, I God would give someone to speak in a known tongue only, where would the miracle be?
The answer to your question is found in Acts 2:5-12.
---Rob on 2/17/09|
Rob, since the Holy Spirit gives us the gift of discerning we know that we praise God. you are quite obviously criticising the faith of someone else, what should not be done, you dont feel good with the experience, good for me, and let it be. on the other hand radicalists who say that you can only be saved if speaking in tongues should also be avoided. Fact is the bible offers this manifestation too all that believe and accept it, no force: if God would give someone to speak in a known tongue only, where would the miracle be?
i speak in tongues quite often (every day) and only on certain occassion i ghet the translation. all situations are incouraged in the bible.
---Andy on 2/16/09|
Mark V. that is one point that I try to make about those who claim to speak in unknown tongues but don't know what they are saying.
How do they know they are not cursing God and praising Satan?
---Rob on 2/15/09|
Rob, when I read what Batieste, I also understood as you did at first, but later got it right.
I also would like to know what language he spoke in. I am not to fond of people speaking other tongues since almost all of them don't know what they say, or what language it is and since every time they speak, no one is there to understand the language. I don't believe God gives this tongues for people to be prideful for having them. I also believe tongues were given to believers after Pentacost for the introduction of the Church. Though many went through the ritual twice it does not mean they received the Spirit again, many times it was done so that those who were getting the Spirit the first time, would be included with everyone else.
---MarkV. on 2/14/09|
One of the team that went to the Philippines had the following experience(and it's been described to me by the other three men.
Going through customs in Manila this man, Larry Hannding my name, stepped up on a baggage counter and firmly ask the custom agents to gather around. Whereupon he presented the gospel of Jesus Christ and then invited them to pray with him(and several of them did pray with him) the rest of the team and others in the custom House were astounded by this man boldness. I myself have made many trips with this man, know him very well and I consider him a very reserved individual. But such is the ways of someone under the persuasion of the Holy Spirit.
---mima on 2/14/09|
Rob "I don't claim, I do have the Holy Spirit" does not mean the same as "I dont claim I do have the Holy Spirit"
Look as the punctuation!
---alan_of_UK on 2/7/09|
Batieste, I will apologize about something. On my computer screen what you wrote on 2/5/09 shows as "I don't claim I do have the holy spirit".
However, I do stand by everything else I have written.
---Rob on 2/6/09|
rob.. I do have the holy ghost,the witness, the holy spirt, the comforter, the spirit. all those names mean the same thing. yes i am saved acording to (john3:3-7)and (mark16:15-17) there are more veruses but you probley dont believe them by the way you are talking here. and if thats the case i have done my job. you are mocking just like in (ACTS 2:13) that means you dont believe... so i turn you to another scripture (revelation 22:18-21)- for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. if any man shall add unto these things, god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book, if any man shall take away from the words of the this prophecy, god shall take away his partout of the book of life.
---batieste on 2/5/09|
Batieste, you wrote that you don't claim to have the Holy Spirit. Based on what is written in Romans 8:1-17, I must ask if you are SAVED?
Also you wrote that you heard yourself speak in another tongue. The questions I have is what tongue? Speaking in another tongue means to speak in another known language, not a bunch of jibberish, Acts 2:1-13.
If you don't know what you were speaking, how do you know that you were not cursing God, and praising Satan?
---Rob on 2/5/09|
steveng... jesus is GOD with us.. meaning he created all things seen and not seen. jesus (also know as GOD) ONLY allows you do whats in his will. So the creator is the one doing the healing, moving people out of your way, and i give him all the praise and glory for it.
I dont claim, I do have the holy spirit. I prayed that i would recieve it just like (acts 2:1-4) I heard the wind and I heard myself speak in another tongue. I felt other indescribable feelings that were wonderful. thats my witness, thats the proof that jesus did raise and still lives. and no one can take it away. the holy spirit is also know as the witness. no one can tell me that god dosn't exist i know the truth becuase of the holy ghost. god bless
---batieste on 2/5/09|
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Frances008, that is the whole point Christianet is the opening towards eachothers different ideas. i do not agree with anyone who goes and explores the occult then to apply it to christian spirituall life. but i do say that everything in the occult is a copy of what should happen in the Spiritual.
prophecy the devil replaces with divination
a Divine sleep has been replaced by trance
visions with dillusions magic replaced miracles
fact is that we christians have allowed the devil to steal our first love, and to take our first strength and to be robed of the riches of spiritual relation in Christ rev 2 & 3.
---Andy on 2/5/09|
batieste: You claim to have the Holy Spirit. Do you perform miracles greater than Jesus? Only Christians who are baptised with the Holy Spirit can perform greater miracles. If not, you are only a Christian baptised by water in the name of Jesus. That's OK, because most Christians stop only at the water baptism and never go forward to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
---Steveng on 2/4/09|
i know many SO CALLED christians THINK they have the holy spirit, but in accordance with bible they do not.. I'm not saying that to be mean.. but (ACTS 2:1-4) says differnt.. Now i recieved the holy spirit just like that.just like the apostles. jesus comanded us,all that want to go to heaven to get it the holy spirit. the bible is very clear.just read your bible i will give you the verses to make it easy. (JOHN 3:3-7)(MARK 16:15-17) just obey the bible cover to cover (revaltion 22:18-21)
the reason why most poeple have a time is that they arnt believers of christ, and they dont obey the word. they look for people that say it dosnt take all that.the bible say different. GOD BLESS
---batieste on 2/4/09|