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Is There Eternal Security

Does Romans 5:9-10 speak of eternal security? 9-Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10-For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

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 ---mima on 12/17/08
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Mima, the way you explained "Imputed riggheousness" is correct. When we get to be with the Lord He will not see sin in us but the righteousness of Christ that was imputed to us. There can be no more sin since the only part that has not been redeemed is the flesh, and that flesh will die when we die. Before the Lord we stand with our new bodies incorruptable. Many want to twist those passages of imputed righeousness to add something to it they contrived from their humanness flesh.
As to the story of Simon in Acts 8:13, the only believe he had was motivated by selfish reasons and could not be considered genuine (John 2:23,24). He saw it as an external act useful to gain the power he believed Philip possessed.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/09


What Are Evidences of True Salvation:

1. By God's mercy we hear the gospel message.

2. If it's the true gospel message, the Holy Spirit will convict that we can never come before God in our stained, sinful condition.

3. But we hear the wonderful good news message of hope and grace that Jesus' atoning blood saves/justifies those who sincerely repent of their past life of sin and now want to live to be deciples of His by following the Lord, God's Word, and abiding in the Holy Spirit.

4. We humbly come before God thanking Him for Jesus' sacrifice and repenting of sin asking for mercy.

5. The faithful continue to abide in the Lord and His Light. They'll continue to confess any future sin mistakes and grow.
---Anne on 5/31/09


1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. Father, I thank you for inspiring John to write this verse. I accepted your Son Jesus as my Savior one morning and received the Holy Spirit. Later on I found out that according to Your Word I was saved by Your grace through faith in Your Son Jesus and had been born again. I also learned that Jesus said unless one was born again, they could not enter your kingdom. 1 John 5:11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. THANK YOU FATHER!
---Bob on 3/31/09


Kathr ... I am glad you answered as yuo do, because that is what I beleive.
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/31/09


Mima~ Thanks! And may God richly bless you too!!
---Anne on 3/31/09




If they aren't giving Christ the right of way, they aren't growing in the Grace that Christ has given them. If they are this way, they aren't eternally secure.
Great post kath!!!
---miche3754 on 3/31/09

miche, When I surrendered my life once and for all what I found is, once I became the Lords, He taught me what surrendering daily meant. Not some Church. AND this is the ministry of the Holy Spirit in you. We occasionally get those moments of reminder as we find ourlelves in a Holy Spirit half nelson or if we lolly gag along the way too long ....we get a sworm of bees after us encouraging us to pick up the pace ...if you know what I mean.

It's is STILL God's work in, around and through us.
---kathr4453 on 3/31/09


Mark 7:7-8,
"7-Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

"8-For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."

Anne may God richly richly bless you!!!!


---mima on 3/31/09


ALL we are asked to do is YEILD, surrender...give Jesus Christ the right of way.....
---kathr4453 on 3/30/09
AMEN!!
This is what I have been trying to get you to understand about what I was saying.

We(you, me, and others on here) know this truth.
We should be out telling the ones that claim they are Christian but NOT doing this that they are endangering themselves by NOT yielding to Christ!
If they aren't giving Christ the right of way, they aren't growing in the Grace that Christ has given them. If they are this way, they aren't eternally secure.
Great post kath!!!
---miche3754 on 3/31/09


Kathr ... I don't know what you are trying to say to me!!

Do you say that once saved, we cannot sin? ( NO)

Or that if we do wrong (even deliberately) it is not really sin, because we are saved, so there is no need to repent? NO

Or that once saved, we still sin, and need to continue to repent? YES
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/30/09

Alan, remember the man in Corinthians who wanted to marry his deceased fathers wife? Was he put out of the church? YES! Did he repent(turn away from his intention) and was welcomed back into fellowship? YES!

---kathr4453 on 3/31/09


Worth repeating:
1 Peter 1:3-5: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope, (that living hope is eternal life and secure by the resurrection of Jesus Christ John 11:25,26, 14:19, 1 Cor.15:17.) "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptable and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last times" We are kept by the power of God. You don't have to believe it for it to be true.
---MarkV. on 3/31/09




Alan~ I responded to the same question that you asked of Kathr. I was wondering if the answer I gave you made clear sense in accordance with the Bible. I look forward to your answer and God bless.
---Anne on 3/30/09


Faith that Christ will help us be obedient to the end.
(I liked what you said kath, and it was worth stating again!)
---miche3754 on 3/30/09


Miche, now go to Phil 3...Paul is re-iterating AGAIN...that I may KNOW Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His suffering, being make conformable to His death etc etc, etc.

THIS is our life UNDER GRACE. It isn't faith that Christ will help us be obedient....It's our total surrender to Jesus Christ AS HE lives HIS life through us. ALL we are asked to do is YEILD, surrender...give Jesus Christ the right of way.....
---kathr4453 on 3/30/09


Mima~ You had an interesting post. You made the statement that God won't see our sins after we're saved due to imputed righteousness.

But what you said contradicts with the story of Simon in Acts Chapter 8. Here we read that Simon is a baptized believer (Acts 8:13). We later read that Simon committed a sin (vs 18-19). Now, Peter did not respond to Simon by saying, "God will not see your sins due to imputed righteousness." But rather Peter told Simon in vs. 20-23, that Simon's heart was not right with God and to repent of his wickedness and pray that God might forgive Simon.

So it is clear that God DOES see our sins after we're saved and that we MUST repent of them to be forgiven by God of them.

---Anne on 3/30/09


Kathr ... I don't know what you are trying to say to me!!

Do you say that once saved, we cannot sin?

Or that if we do wrong (even deliberately) it is not really sin, because we are saved, so there is no need to repent?

Or that once saved, we still sin, and need to continue to repent?
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/30/09


Is to come to an understanding about security. It is the old man that we are presently occupy, but the old man is already dead by the cross of Jesus Christ.
---mima on 3/27/09

mima, AMEN!!

This is what we are to OBEY in Romans 6...what these who overlook continue to overlook...

1. We are to RECKON it to be true! GOD SAID SO!!!
2. YIELD to Jesus Christ acknowledging this FACT
3. KNOW this is a FACT and thereby act accordingly.

Those who don't are living continually in disobedience and don't even know it....or are not saved at all!
---kathr4453 on 3/30/09


24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits,
this is what Paul is referring to...arrogance against God's plan for Israel
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Now dewaine, you have threatened me with this more than once. Stop using scripture to threaten people with dewaine...it shows your ignorance and arrogance!
---kathr4453 on 3/30/09


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Might I add that it is BOTH.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.(Christ IN YOU)

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,

even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ Jesus...obedient unto death--even death of a Cross, God Highly Exalted Him.
We must have faith, and obedience.
Faith that Christ will help us be obedient to the end.
(I liked what you said kath, and it was worth stating again!)
---miche3754 on 3/30/09


The wild olive branch is grafted in by faith and is warned that by unbelief the gentiles also would be cut off. Pauls even more direct about this because he makes a distinction of saying 'you too'. This is a individual statement not only a distinction of gentiles and jews. If your jewish good for you, its irrelevant to me. I'm southern.
---dewaine on 3/28/09

dewaine, we will ust have to agree to disagree on this subject. This is not to individual persons, but Gentiles as a whole who are so arrogant against Israel and Jewish Peoples.

dewaine, please stop starting a comment by accusing and insulting first....or last even.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/09


1 Peter 1:3-5: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope, (that living hope is eternal life and secure by the resurrection of Jesus Christ John 11:25,26, 14:19, 1 Cor.15:17.) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptable and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last times"
---MarkV. on 3/30/09


Alan8566 Let's look at this another way:

Really meditate on these verses:

Revelation 3:20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.(Christ IN YOU)

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,

even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

How did Jesus overcome?

The Bible tells me the answer in Phil 2:

Keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ Jesus...obedient unto death--even death of a Cross, God Highly Exalted Him.

This is the Gospel of your salvation--this is overcoming faith! Christ in you!
---kathr4453 on 3/28/09


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Anne you wrote,"Imputed righteousness is a teaching that is often misconstrued and taken advantage of in wrongful ways, for it should never be a teaching that says God can no longer see our sins after we're saved" (as quoted from Mark V's 3/25 post)
The teaching of imputed righteousness does not say that God cannot see our sins rather it says he will not see our sin. At the cross Jesus paid the price for all sins for all time. Hence we have this scripture from Romans 8:1" There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Continued
---mima on 3/28/09


Kathr, Atleast I read what you write. You apparently begin a response before you finish reading. YOur telling me about the true and wild olive branch. Ive been away and its amazing how you ignore a topic. You rattle things off. The wild olive branch is grafted in by faith and is warned that by unbelief the gentiles also would be cut off. Pauls even more direct about this because he makes a distinction of saying 'you too'. This is a individual statement not only a distinction of gentiles and jews. If your jewish good for you, its irrelevant to me. I'm southern.
---dewaine on 3/28/09


Alan~ Good question. When we're truly following after the Holy Spirit (new) and not the flesh (old), we have a new heart of course. We may envy or get angry sometimes, but it won't be the normal state of our heart, like it was moreso before we became saved.

One verse tells us not to let the sun go down on our anger. We'll continue to grow steadfastly in righteousness if we're truly saved. We need to be very careful though if we find ourselves more and more in a mindset of anger, greed, lust, hatred, envy etc. for the devil tries to tempt us. the Bible says the devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. He's already 'devoured' the unsaved...so he has his eyes on the saved. But we resist him in the Spirit. God bless!
---Anne on 3/27/09


Mima~

In answer of your interesting questions:

Remember...David repented of His sins of adultery and murder, never returning to them. Now Solomon fell into idolatry as read in I Kings 11:4-10, but despite God's warnings he didn't repent. Solomon wanted Jeroboam murdered till the time of Solomon's death.

Lot's daughters wanting to continue the family, got their father so filled with food and wine that he became unaware what was going on. But 2 Peter 2:6-8 tells us that Lot was such a righteous man and greatly distressed by the wickedness of Sodom. We know Lot would not turn around and commit the same wickedness as those at Sodom, when the Lord just saved Lot since he lived holy.

To be continued...

---Anne on 3/27/09


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Mima~ (continued part 2)

Now Noah's drunkennes we read of in Gen. 9:21-25. We know Noah was a just & 'perfect' man, so we know he was moderate and temperate in all things. When we read Gen. 9 we get the impression that the effects of his wine were very, very unexpected to Noah and his family.

Remember this incident happened after the flood and natural earth conditions changed during the flood period. This is all part of the reasonable explanation for the strange unexpected effects the wine had on Noah. But we know Noah did not live to get purposefully drunk, or he would not have had the reputation of being a righteous man.

To be continued...
---Anne on 3/27/09


Mima~ (continued part 3 in response to your interesting post):

Now with Simon you answered the question already. You showed the verse of Acts 8:20-24. Simon was a baptized believer but Peter commanded Simon to repent and Simon answered and asked Peter to pray with him, so we see Simon repented.

Now remember this is the KEY...Paul stated in different places about those who could NOT enter the kingdom of heaven. He made it very clear and said for us not to be deceived. Paul said in I Cor. 6:9-10 that:

No idolaters
No drunkards
No adulterers etc etc


would enter the Kingdom of heaven. These are words we must heed. God bless and I loved your great questions!
---Anne on 3/27/09


Kathr ... you say "What is so easy to understand for us is we know our old man full of adultery, drunkenness, envy, strife, etc, etc, died with Jesus Christ the day we believed, were buried with Him in baptism of death and raised a NEW CREATURE BORN AGAIN"

Now some say this means that even if we go on with those old sins, they are not really sins, because they are now buried. So it's OK to go on, relying oin eternal security ... I don't agree with that!

My other thought is that it's not possible to stop sinning altogether when saved. It is possible to consciously avoid adultery & drunkeness, but envy & strife & anger? If one controls these, that means one has committed the sin already!
---alan8566_of_UK on 3/27/09


Mima: The correct answer is "Be concerned about your 'own' soul Not the destiny of others Past present or Future"HAVE A NICE DAY:-)
---MIC on 3/27/09


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Mima: The correct answer is "Be concerned about your 'own' soul Not the destiny of others Past present or Future"HAVE A NICE DAY:-)--- A person convinced against h/her will is of the same opinion still.OSAS is a false hope and doctrine.
---MIC on 3/27/09


To understand this written by---kathr4453

" The New Man in Christ is a Spiritual being....no flesh and blood. THAT is who enters in. Our old Adam, no matter how self righteous will NEVER enter in." Is to come to an understanding about security. It is the old man that we are presently occupy, but the old man is already dead by the cross of Jesus Christ.
---mima on 3/27/09


So if David never repented then He would still be saved?

The Bible speaks of overcoming sin. Are you saying that those who do not overcome have a ticket to heaven?

Do you also believe that those who hate others and do not give up hate will also go to heaven just because they said they were saved?
---Samuel on 3/27/09


Anne wrote,
There is no such thing as:

saved adulterers-this eliminates David
saved drunkards-this eliminates Lot and Noah
saved sorcerers-this eliminates Simon the sorcerer's chances even though Peter tells him he might have a chance.

Acts 8:20-22

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

saved idolaters etc-this eliminates all that pray to statutes.
---mima on 3/27/09


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****Kathr...this is very very easy to understand.***

Yes Anne, it is to those who are Born Again. What is so easy to understand for us is we know our old man full of adultery, drunkenness, envy, strife, etc, etc, died with Jesus Christ the day we believed, were buried with Him in baptism of death and raised a NEW CREATURE BORN AGAIN. God is not making over our old Adam.....It's the New Man that enters into the Kingdom. The New Man in Christ is a Spiritual being....no flesh and blood. THAT is who enters in. Our old Adam, no matter how self righteous will NEVER enter in.

This is what YOU don't understand! This IS the preaching of the CROSS....you seem to find so foolish!
---kathr4453 on 3/27/09


Kathr~ These warnings of Paul tell us that adulterers, idolaters, sorcerers, drunkards etc. will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Paul says do not be deceived.

Kathr...this is very very easy to understand.

In other words if you fall back into adultery after getting saved...you MUST repent and forsake this sin or you will NOT be in heaven one day.

There is no such thing as:

saved adulterers
saved drunkards
saved sorcerers
saved idolaters etc

This is why Miche,Nana, Betty, Frances, Eloy, DDM etc. and I proclaim this so fervently for we don't want to see a single soul deceived by OSAS and on the road back to hell. Please everyone join us in the fight! We MUST with ALL our heart!
---Anne on 3/26/09


*We must remember that Paul continually warned Christians , those who received imputed righteousness, that they could miss the kingdom through sin.(Rom 8:13, Gal. 5:19-21, Gal.6:8-9, Cor 6:9-10 etc.)
Anne*

Anne, Paul continually warned that those who found any other way apart from the Grace of God to deliver one from his sin nature would in fact miss out on the kingdom as well.


Gal 3...
Having BEGIN in the spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh (LAW)have you suffered so much in vain?I am afraid of you..I will have to say until CHRIST is formed in you AGAIN!!!

Phil 3..
That I may KNOW HIM and the Power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His suffering.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/09


refering to this post by MarkV. on 3/25/09


Have you committed sin since you got saved? did you take it to Christ and ask for forgiveness? I hope you did.
We have to always admitt we need him to overcome. Christ overcame the world and he helps us to do this too.
Why do you think Christ did the washing of the feet? Do you think it was just to show us to be humble?
And Christ telling us to "dust our feet off"
was not just because of people not receiving the truth. We get into the word everyday and let Christ clean that dust of the world off of us so we don't get entangled in it again.
markv, tell me what you believe the parable of the sower really means?
---miche3754 on 3/26/09


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1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Those who understand this KNOW Paul is not talking about a piece of wood.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/09


Imputed righteousness is a teaching that is often misconstrued and taken advantage of in wrongful ways, for it should never be a teaching that says God can no longer see our sins after we're saved (as quoted from Mark V's 3/25 post)

Our chief text concerning imputed righteousness is Romans 4:6-8. Here Paul is quoting from David's 32nd Psalm. When we read Psalm 32 in it's fullness we read where David speaks of his own sins and that they needed to be confessed and forgiven even after his initial salvation.

We must remember that Paul continually warned Christians , those who received imputed righteousness, that they could miss the kingdom through sin. (Rom 8:13, Gal. 5:19-21, Gal.6:8-9, Cor 6:9-10 etc.)
---Anne on 3/26/09


"This passages are given for support that people have to do good deeds to enter heaven, but been righteous is having the imputation of Christ righteousness. It doesn't mean we are righteous of ourselves. It means that because of our faith we are imputed the righteousness of Christ."
MarkV. on 3/25/09

Matthew 25:31_46 speaks not of imputed righteousness, rather it speaks of 'plain vanilla' righteousnes.
If Christ's righteousness gets imputed, not only 'goats' will get to heaven but cats and dogs. Do people have to do good deeds to enter heaven? Answer is simple, if we see a need in our fellow man and turn our face, the word says no heaven, rather it calls for "everlasting fire".
---Nana on 3/26/09


As they thirst and hungered in the physical we do the same in the spiritual. As we beat at the air with our dead works so did they with their complacency of slaying animals for their sins.They didnt understand that GOd was going to win their victories for them as many babes dont.you think the body of christ is only made up of Joshua's.It takes time and trials and getting back up to bring out the Joshua of a believer. Its not automatic as you teach. Calvin believed it is automatic and if it isnt for one, he must be the part of the same lump of clay that was created a vessel for destruction.Calvin believe it was impossible for one to resist.Calvinists today say we recieve it by choice and thats it.As you do.
---dewaine on 3/26/09


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Kathr~Sorry about that...I must have misunderstood you. Thanks for the clarification and God bless.
---Anne on 3/25/09


Miche~ I was wondering about your thoughts concerning imputed righteousness & how you view Mark's thoughts about it.

Many people after getting saved grow lukewarm and eventually return to a life of adultery, sorcery, idolatry etc. as told of in I Cor. 6:9-10, parable of sower etc. (Solomon, Saul, Phineas etc. are all examples of such).

Mark says true believers have Christ's imputed righteousness and God doesn't see their sin. He refuses to look at verses that say people's faith became shipwrecked etc.

Miche, he forever accuses us of lies and twisting scripture, yet he won't look at myriads of scripture himself. You're a true honest friend and I needed to pour out my heart to you. Thanks for listening and God bless.
---Anne on 3/25/09


***Some gladly recieve redemption but as they are drawn in to holiness they draw back to a point of a hardened heart and after this there is no more sacrifice for sins.dewaine***

Are you talking about sanctification...Well, Isn't God working all things together for Good to those who LOVE the Lord? Haven't we been predsestined to be conformed to His Image? Doesn't 2 Corinthians say we are being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord.

Doesn't it say in Romans 5 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:

Those who have the REAL HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM
DO.....!!!!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/09


Yes I do, Kathr. But were not going to get on the same page when it comes to (and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works). I see this in a 1 then 2 process. Not all at once/immediately. Some gladly recieve redemption but as they are drawn in to holiness they draw back to a point of a hardened heart and after this there is no more sacrifice for sins. I do not make Christ look like a confused idiot that He is always changing His mind on whos saved and who loses it and then whos saved again. People draw back from the only person we have of the trinity to have fellowship with because with Him comes holines. I dont believe unbelievers can reject holiness before rejecting the cross.
---dewaine on 3/25/09


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**Paul says those who live in these ways are not saved. .... I'm not sure how to explain it any clearer than I have to you. Anne**

Anne, I don't see what the problem is. You said it correctly...they are not saved. You answer your own question with truth, and turn right around and dispute yourself.

The reason they are not saved is because they have not identified with Christ in death and resurrection life, being buried with Him AKA crucified with Christ, in the putting OFF of the sin of the flesh.

As I tried to explain to dewaine, they are on the wrong side of Calvary.There is no such thing as a wilderness Christian. ALL came out of Egypt signifying Christ Died for ALL, but not all will enter in...as you see, all did not!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/09


Just more of twisting passages found on these blog,
"Also Verses like I Corinthians 6:9+ tells us to not be deceived for the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God." God bless.
---Anne on 3/24/09"

This passages are given for support that people have to do good deeds to enter heaven, but been righteous is having the imputation of Christ righteousness. It doesn't mean we are righteous of ourselves. It means that because of our faith we are imputed the righteousness of Christ. That's why the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, they need to have faith and trust in Christ. And when God looks at a genuine believer, He doesn't see their sin, but the sacrifcial Lamb's righteous imputation.
---MarkV. on 3/25/09


Anne, I am not only washed in the Blood, I am REDEEMED BY His Blood. (a good study on redeemed---redemption. You may want to further investigate.)

I am Sanctified By His Blood

I have been purchased by His Blood.

I overcome By His Blood.

My conscience has been PURGED by His Blood

and on and on and on...


Those who can testify to the above DO NOT WILLFULLY SIN with deliberate unrepentance.

Anne, you are building a straw man that just does not exist.

Many will clame the blood.....that doesn't mean their really saved...even Mormons claim the blood hello!!. Don't be so naive!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/09


dewaine, I guess you don't know this but I am Jewish. The promise to Jews are not more important than to Gentiles as we are ONE IN CHRIST no longer Jew or Gentile. The Church is what is grafted in wild against nature.

I am not a Calvinist. I was not born with Christ already in me...just waiting to realize it. My name was not picked out of a hat.

However the promises of God IN CHRIST are YES and AMEN!!!!

But I am God's Elect according to the Election of GRACE placing me in the Church, and that is why Titus makes so much sense. I believe in the faith according to the Elect, Titus 2:11-14...don't you?
---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


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Kathr~ If you believe Christ paid for deliberate unrepentant sins of believers...how is there any difference between a Christian and a non-Christian?

I discussed with you Heb. 10:26-31 vs by vs., which clearly tells us that Christ did not die for those who live in deliberate unrepentant sin...not only unbelievers, but believers.

Also Verses like I Corinthians 6:9+ tells us to not be deceived for the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then Paul has a list of sins that pertain to those who follow the flesh, instead of the Spirit...Paul says those who live in these ways are not saved. Your logic goes against Luke 12 teachings and so much else. I'm not sure how to explain it any clearer than I have to you. God bless.
---Anne on 3/24/09


Kathr~ Are you saying that you believe Christ's blood covers deliberate unrepentant sin?


Anne, this is what Scripture says concerning the Blood of Christ you seem to think so little of....

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:2
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? (Bulls and Goats) because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Do you see how much more SUPERIOR the Blood of Christ is?
---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


This blog should be renamed the 'dewaine/kathr' blog. Haha. Just having some fun, but hope you 2 can work out your differences in a spirit of love eventually.
---Anne on 3/24/09


You have to say that your a calvinist
---dewaine on 3/24/09


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Paul warned of this very subject. YOu believe that the promises are automatic. And that the promises for the gentiles that have been grafted in by faith have some how become more important(highminded) than what was promised to His children. Be ye not highminded but fear. For you to shall be cut off for unbelief. Yes this refers to two nations. But you ignore one the fact that we are grafted in by faith. In order to be cut off, you have to be on. We are no better than the jew. Grafted in by faith can be cut off if one continues in unbelief. You cant argue with scripture. A doctrinal view has to discredit so much regardless of which side one wants to be on. Jesus also had to go through the wilderness to be tested.
---dewaine on 3/24/09


cont please:

The Book of Hebrews
The Superiority of Jesus Christ


as Messenger- BETTER: Superior to Moses, Joshua, Angels etc. HE IS GOD!!!!

as Leader BETTER: HEAD of the Church WE are Partakers of Christ.

as Priest BETTER: Superior to Levites Better and Eternal Covenant

The Superiority of Christs Covenant BETTER: He is the SURETY of the New Covenant.

The Superiority of Christ Sacrifice BETTER: COMPLETE Superior to Old Covenant Forgiveness of sin.not remembrance of sin year after year

The Superiority of Christs Way.through the veil, that is to say His Flesh.

The Superiority of Christs Way - BETTER: BY FAITH, not works of the Law
---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


I would say, it's because Mary was very clingy, emotional, and still earthly and fleshly in her mind wanted to touch Jesus ...unlike Thomas's touch. Mary wanted to HUG Jesus, Thomas needed to see that Jesus really did rise from the dead. Mary KNEW He had. I believe Jesus was trying to let Mary know in a sweet way, the relationship now is not an emotional one but spiritual one.

Just my thoughts...
---kathr4453 on 3/23/09

I wouldn't say they are just thoughts sis, I would say you are speaking the TRUTH on this point. Great observation in the Holy Spirit!
---miche3754 on 3/24/09


Dewaine, your last post was right on. blessing to you and may you continue in the truth with an open heart,
---MarkV. on 3/24/09


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Dewaine, I meant your second to last statement. The others I have a hard time knowing what you are saying. You say a believers heart can turn so hard, I believe you are talking about an unbelievers heart. The new believer has a new heart, and the Spirit inside of him. His heart is for Christ. I don't know of any genuine believer who's heart has turned hard against Christ. If it has turned hard, he was never a genuine believer to began with. He was an imposter just like many here. They pretend to be holy on the outside, but inside there is no hope and no faith, just listen to what they say. Their hope is still in themselves. Not in Christ. And they bet their lives on it.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09


Anne, Anyone who knows anything about writing, books, stories, letters KNOW it starts with the subject CHAPTER 1( beginning) and concludes with a summary of what was disciussed prior. The last chapter etc.

WHAT then IS the subject matter of Hebrews.....the subject matter starts with JESUS and ends with JESUS.

The book of Hebrews is LAW( no indwelling Jesus) verses Grace ( indwelling Jesus) ....the Old system verses (FLESH) vs NEW Covenant GRACE...SPIRIT, JESUS IN YOU....PERIOD!!!!! Anything else we call.... verse snatchers.....those who just snatch any verse off a page and apply their own false doctrine to it.
---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


dewaine, I really don't know what your problem is....to argue with me just for the sake of argument?????

All those scripture you posted are life IN CHRIST....life IN the Promise land( Christ is OUR promise land)...not the wildeness. The PROMISE to Israel was the Land, not the wilderness. So please stop trying to apply the verses you posted to wildereness life. Life Begins IN CHRIST our promise Land. We enter in, just as they had to enter in.


You will also see those who did enter in were circumcised IMMEDIATELY AFTER entering. That may go over your head, but very enlightening. The daily manna ended and they ate of the fruit of the land immediately...also a type of life IN CHRIST.


---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


You rebuked someone who is hungry,for Christ. How ignorant! Because he didnt have understanding you judged him an unbeliever and rebuked him. And your proud of it! Ubelievable! You cant do this and understand that what you have from beginning to end is a gift. You rebuded him for lack of knowlege. As if he has to earn his place here like aparently you did.
---dewaine on 3/23/09


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kathr, bless you for that observation about mary and thomas touching Jesus. I had never noticed that and your view of why jesus did this seems reasonable. I'll pray about that and see I get similar or differing feedback. Seems there is not end to the mystery in scripture.
---DavidA on 3/23/09


Anne you are absolutely right I totally messed up and was confused. Thanks for so graciously handling this and thanks for thinking about my troubles.
---DavidA on 3/23/09


Kathr~ Let's look carefully at Heb.10:26-30.

This is speaking to those who know the truth (v26) and have been sanctified by the blood (v29). It is discussing the Lord's judgment on His people. (v30).

We are warned not to sin willfully/deliberately (v26) for as long as we go on sinning this way, there is no sacrifice for sin. (this is not discussing what will happen if such people repent and change but what our condition is as long as this conduct continues.)

Such people are trodding underfoot God's Son (v29), doing despite to the Spirit of grace, counting the blood by which we were sanctified unholy (v29). Their only future is fierceness of fire (v27) and vengeance of God. (v30).(loss of salvation)

---Anne on 3/23/09


Anne, I believe the church has ended up as far away from the truth as the Jews did at appearance of Christ. Weve turned the written word into the law of the letter.For a believer the law of sin and death is dead! We arent to focus on the outside of the platter(sin) which is merely the fruit of the carnal mind.The carnal mind and heart is what needs to be changed and the outside of the platter will be clean. Focusing on the outside is works and there is no victory in that battle.Paul said everything is lawful unto me but not everything is expedient.We're free! From the moment we are cleansed. The carnal mind is still left with the only way it knows how to be obedient, because of the knowlege of good and evil, as in do good and dont do evil.
---dewaine on 3/23/09


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Paul wanted us to relate to Abraham. He was before the law. He didnt receive the promise by works, what works he had no law. What did he have,Faith. Look what he said when God first spoke to him.He said me! Im but dust and ashes. Abraham knew life was all about God! Not ordinances,rules,or anything else religous. He obeyed God from the heart. DO i believe OSAS,No. Do I believe we get wash or saved over and over again,NO. Ibelieve He is loonnggssuuffering. A believers heart CAN become so hard,through sin yes, that it becomes an old wineskin worse than it was bfore he was saved.God isnt rejecting him or leaving him Nor is it anything inthe world that caused it. Its because he simply loved one more than the other.We are warned of this over andover.
---dewaine on 3/23/09


Kathr~ Are you saying that you believe Christ's blood covers deliberate unrepentant sin?

This conflicts with I Cor. 6:9 where it tells us "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, howosexuals, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners will inherit heaven."
---Anne on 3/23/09


Why? cause its impossible,No Way. THe Saints,Elect or Sanctified in Christ are those who realize their strength, all of it.THe very powere that pumps our blood through our veins is the Holy Spirit. Him and Him alone has delivered me from the life of sin. By revelation that seems to shake the ground under your feet that you see your whole life has brought you to this point through His care.All thing work together for the good,not some things,All.This revelation of you and Christ being ONE can hardly come without knowing that without HIm we're but dust and ashes. I dont believe we are sealed yet with a carnal mind it is being sealed with the new covenant which is his law upon our heart and mind.THis wont be broken
---dewaine on 3/23/09


Kathr , Jesus is our great high priest isnt he. God commanded the High priests of the old Covenant once a year to enter in with the blood of a Lamb. Before they could carry this out they had to be cleansed by ritual washings and no one could touch them or they would be unclean. Everything here that pertained to the temple was a reflection of the true above. Jesus now being forever our High Priest had to also be untouched until He carried his own blood into the Holy of Holies. How this was achieved before the escention we're not sure but it had to be. because He offered thomas to touch him.
---dewaine on 3/23/09


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You automatically discredit biblical truth by using scripture. The word is infallible. we cant take some to overule others. You want to claim as if im saying its ok to sin that good will still come.Does that sound familiar. Those under the law that lacked understanding slanderously accused Paul of the same.Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances.(touch not,taste not,handle not, Which all are to perish with using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? WHICH THINGS HAVE INDEED A SHEW OF WISDOM IN WILL WORSHIP,AND HUMILITY, AND NEGLECTING OF THE BODY:NOT IN HONOR THE SATISFYING OF THE FLESH.
---dewaine on 3/23/09


continue please, If,If,If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above,where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above not on things on the earth. This battle with good and evil is carnal. If one remains trying to avail in this battle he will never get anywhere. OOOH sinnnn,sinnnn sinnnn its baddddd. If one says they have entered into HIs rest and they only talk about what sin will do. THey are warring with their flesh. I do not spin nor toil any more than the lilly in the field. I do not war with my flesh it will eventually get me.When our affection is on Him the battle of sin is won. He delivers me from the body of this death, this is beyond forgiveness and its a Gift.
---dewaine on 3/23/09


dewayne~Can I ask you a favor? You mostly just speak to Kathr...but can you take just a moment and make a post where you put in a 'nutshell' a rather complete overview of your overall views concerning salvation and OSAS. I appreciate it and thank you.
---Anne on 3/23/09


dewayne~ You made your 1st post to me. I'm sorry about the confusion, but all my posts in the past were directed to 'Duane' and not to 'dewayne' (you) since I still have not really studied your views carefully yet and am therefore not able to address you. I'm sorry you thought I was addressing you, and for that confusion. God bless.
---Anne on 3/23/09


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Remember, Hebrews 10:26-30 teaches if we sin willfully/deliberately after we're saved, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment. This means if we refuse to repent of deliberate sins we're no longer saved.

Blessings.
-Anne on 3/21/09

Anne, what you just stated here is wrong. Please re-read ALL of Hebrews 10. The Jews are told there is no more sacrifice for sin, it is talking about ANIMAL Sacrifice, not Christ's sacrifice. The author is comparing the OLD to the NEW. They wanted to hold on to the OLD WAY,the LAW. Their willful sinning would no longer be covered under animal sacrifice.

NOW they come to Christ...Jesus blood of the covenant, The Spirit of GRACE, and Christ Himself.
---kathr4453 on 3/23/09


It was a figure of things to come,Kathr. Your belief that we as believers skip any journey through a wilderness isnt biblical. When it is taught OSAS it leads those to believe that true,manifested,fruition of Holiness isnt necessary. For my people perish for the lack of knowlege is so true.
--dewaine on 3/20/09



It has COME <

In other words dewaine, YOU believe WE work our way to Holiness. WRONG,Holiness begins IN the Holy of Holies, in Christ, Jesus is NOT in the wilderness, and you will see as a TYPE, the Jordan represents the CROSS and conquering the land began AFTER they crossed. The Land IS Christ, who said I wil go before you and drive them out.

FYI,Rev says the Harlot sits over those in the Wilderness.
---kathr4453 on 3/23/09


Kathr let me ask you one question 'why did jesus tell mary not to touch him outside of the tomb. Im not trying to be tricky. Its an interesting point.
---dewaine on 3/20/09


dewaine, Jesus DID let Thomas touch Him, before He ascended to the Father...sooooo, WHY did He ask Mary not to touch Him???

I would say, it's because Mary was very clingy, emotional, and still earthly and fleshly in her mind wanted to touch Jesus ...unlike Thomas's touch. Mary wanted to HUG Jesus, Thomas needed to see that Jesus really did rise from the dead. Mary KNEW He had. I believe Jesus was trying to let Mary know in a sweet way, the relationship now is not an emotional one but spiritual one.

Just my thoughts...
---kathr4453 on 3/23/09


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