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Ghosts Of The Dead

Is it possible that there really are ghosts of the dead with unfinished business still roaming the earth?

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Natalie - 4-6-09 The demons figure they're not so dumb, because they still have a home.
---Betty on 5/7/09


Ghosts are demons impersonating the dead or tricksters who are tying to steal your money by fakery.

This is the reason that GOD warns against talking with these pretend ghosts. They give us going into the light instead of speaking of judgement and Heaven.
---Samuel on 5/5/09


amand6348, did that when a child, all kinds of "scientifical books" about ghosts,poltergeists, unexplainable mannifestations. these books drew me in the occult, these books turned me into a "true satanist". THANK GOD, GOD SAVED ME FROM MY OWN FLESH, else i would be dead. books led me to curse Christ, fight against Christianity, humiliate preachers publically etc. When i came to Christ and revealed my "secret life", my mother, a Godfearing woman, cried for hours. still gratefull that Jesus saved me in despite of my own wrongdoings.
bassically the bible does'nt really explain in details what these spirits of the dead are(known as ghosts)it says not vto comunicate, and that is all we need to know.
---Andy on 5/5/09


Maybe. Maybe you should read some books dealing with ghosts (since you've probably already read what the Bible has to say about this) and decide what you believe.
---amand6348 on 5/4/09


Nathalie2, So who told you i'm a protestant? what i said is reality, not HOLYWOODIAN, it is a fact that most hollywood filmmakerseuse the RCC, neverthelss the reason is less glorifying as you would esteem. it is only because the RCC is more theatrical in its form, and therefore better usuable in fiction. it always speaks to ones imagination to see those big robes and all kinds of amulets and crosses etc. something not to be found in the no-nonsense churches. or you want to say vanHelsing is a real story. PS. most films using RCC as a model really do not put any possitive image, is that true as well. please fiction and reality seperated
---Andy on 4/10/09




Andy, the RCC agrees with you in there are NO GHOSTS. The RCC states Demons are fallen angels

Even nonChristians laugh at your statement.
The lowest? Even they know who expells demons the most.
They always show a Priest doing the expelling.

Tell me one Hollywood movie that has a Protestant expelling the demon.
And I will use the same movie of yours, showing you the end of that movie of the person not having a demon, but a mental disease.

That is the answer to your 2nd statement. The RCC isn't CONFUSED with mental distrubance and true demon possesion.

Even BettyW is trying to claim the ghosts in my grandmother house are demons.
One of the 500,000 case the Archbishop is speaking of.
---Natalie2 on 4/7/09


I am Catholic and the RCC teaches that Ghosts do not exist.

But, the Popes and Bishops never slept in my grandmother's house.---Natalie2 on 3/24/09

Andy the one time I state how I disagree with the RCC in Her belief, and you state the opposite.


Nathalie2 these ghosts are demons according Catholic demonolgy.--Andy on 4/7/09


I get the feeling you just like to argue with me?

NO PLEASING YOU.
---Natalie2 on 4/7/09


Nathalie2 these ghosts are demons according Catholic demonolgy. PS far be it that the RCC is number 1 in expelling demons. tthey are actually the lowest in expelling and if there ever is a priest or a monk even a friar performing this ministry, it is mainly not known to the official church. the archbishop of Belgium did once in an intervieuw confirm that the demons are
a problem indeed, yet that only one upon 5.000.000 cases they investigate are indeed possesion. it is not because majority of charismatics in America are lazy on this subject that other nations of the Charismatic church sleep.
---Andy on 4/7/09


The demons you speak of figure they haven't wasted 30 yrs.-they're still there or others took their places. They come & go as they please.---Betty on 4/5/09

These ghosts never left. They stayed in placed.
So if you continue to believe they are demons, then they are the dumbest, weakest, lazy demons ever.

Again, I didn't say that Priests are the ONLY groups of people to cast out demons.
They are the Most type of persons to cast out demons.

Also, I guess your Derek Prince cast out those 'weak demons' you keep calling in my grandmother's house.

Priests casts out real demons I speak of.
---Natalie2 on 4/6/09


natalie- Demons have to give up a body, of course, if the Lord makes them do it. Otherwise, if they are in a person, they will stay as long as they want to and leave when they want to, and come again when they want to. Ususally, maybe always, there is more than one demon in a person who is possessed or oppressed. There was a famous Christian man named Derek Prince who casted out demons in the Name of Jesus Christ. His website teaches people a lot about demons and demon possession.

The demons you speak of figure they haven't wasted 30 yrs.-they're still there or others took their places. They come & go as they please.
---Betty on 4/5/09




Scripture says, "to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord."
Scripture does not support the lost and wandering, or the un-finished buisness ghost theory at all.
---Rev._Daniel on 4/4/09

Then please explain these odd unfinish business ghosts hanging around.
They are not demons, because demons are not going to waste 30 years or so to play with babies and sing hymns.

A blank statement of what Scripture doesn't support is kinda weak.

Scripture doesn't support us going to the moon, but we did.
---Natalie2 on 4/5/09


One thing I have gathered from this topic is the confusion many have on demons.

You don't have to believe in ghosts.
But, your beliefs that demons can be kinda good or harmless at times is strange.

WAKE UP. Demons are never NICE or WAITS on Time to harm us.

THEY ARE ALWAYS HARMING US!
(A verb not past tense)

Now, maybe you can't see it because you are clueless, but they are working every single minute.
Remember, they don't need REST like you and I.
---Natalie2 on 4/5/09


Scripture says, "to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord."
Scripture does not support the lost and wandering, or the un-finished buisness ghost theory at all.
---Rev._Daniel on 4/4/09


Tactfully, I say that you don't know those "ghosts" never entered a body. It takes a person with the Holy Ghost to cast out a demon, it doesn't have to be a priest.---Betty

Tactfully, yes I do. I know everyone was Saved and they are not or have not been prossessed.
Are you suggesting that a demon takes over and leaves on his own?
If you think a demon will let go of a soul just 'because', then I know you don't know much about demons.

The demons are not playing around, Betty.
They are after one thing! SOULS.
They are not going to release a soul and give it back to God. That isn't their NATURE.

I didn't say ONLY Priests can cast out demons.
But, they few and far in comparison in the numbers casted out.
---Natalie2 on 4/3/09


There is nothing in scripture supporting that sprits of the dead are some how delayed in their instant trip to heaven or hell.
While there is scripture mentioning those who are asleep IN THE LORD there is nothing to suggest God allows human spirits to roam around earth without a body. Show me please.
There are plenty of credible reports of demonic presence and resistence to the spreading of gospel and corporate prayer. These instances are primarily from nations where Jesus has not been freely preached and demons are mostly free. For example Iran and Iraq which are cleary under demonic influence as mentioned in the horribly frightening verse of Daniel 10:13.
I wish someone had read Daniel 10 before declaring war against Iraq.
---larry on 4/3/09


Natalie2- Tactfully, I say that you don't know those "ghosts" never entered a body. Demons are hoaxers. They are experts at deception. A demon's nature is evil, but they are also experts at seduction of any kind. They can lure people in to all kinds of sinful traps. Some fine Christians are lost in sin and may carry some demons around in themselves without realizing it yet. Some demons find it to their advantage to be subtle and concealed. Some people have casted demons out of ministers & Christians. It takes a person with the Holy Ghost to cast out a demon, it doesn't have to be a priest.
---Betty on 4/3/09


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Betty, yes and they can appear as Sweet Angels and everything else. But, THEY ARE TRUE TO THEIR NATURE!
They hate God and us Christians!

But, these ghosts are NOT DEMONS because the ghosts are not acting to their nature.
These ghosts never entered a body.
Trust me, you know when someone is possessed by a demon. Well I know, I can tell or not.
It's Priests they hate the most. Why do you think in movies they show Priest expelling demons the most. Protestants have I guest, but mostly Catholics Priests.

The movie Exorcist is a true account except it was a boy not a girl. Also a Luthern Priest was called first, because the family was Luthern. but the Luthern Priest CALLED the Catholic Church for help to complete the job.
---Natalie2 on 4/3/09


Demons can use a house for many years, probably until they are cast out or the house is burned. They probably get into people at intervals, whether the people live there or not. The demons may go off to towns, cities or even other countries from time to time & eventually come back. Other demons may come to the same house to replace those that left. Demons can look like monsters or people, whatever they choose. They were once Heavenly angels that praised, worshiped and sang praises to God. They can sing a hymn as well as anyone else & maybe better. They go to church in some people, even some ministers, believe it or not. They are out on a lark. But they can be deadly.
---Betty on 4/2/09


Samuel, thank you for your answer.
All fallen angels are demons. But, I still can't believe that demons are all of the sudden nice for 30 years or more.
Too many people can't have the same imagination.

We never tell our guests we have ghosts.
It would frighten them. We would look crazy, or we just forget. Mostly we hope they wouldn't experience anything.
9 out of 10 times, they would tell us. They all decribe the same thing. An older black woman singing black hymns. They even give a race.
Babies start to smile at mid-air. Play peek a boo at the air. All the strange stuff like that.
Too much for demons to interact in that manner.
Some might think I am strange to admit this stuff, but I just know what I know and hear.
---Natalie2 on 4/2/09


Bobby3, I'll try to answer your Q.
Paul (only) talks about "outside the body" like "absent from the body" etc..giving credence to the idea that something escapes the body at death!
Jesus ,on the other hand ,taught "resurrection" of the "DEAD" not the body!
You are dead 'till He resurrects you, not living in some "ethereal" existence!
Jesus had left,they were like sheep without a shepherd,they needed a leader,Paul fit the bill. (H.S.is invisable)
---1st_cliff on 4/1/09


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Bobby3, Allow me to take this a step farther.
One does not need "authority" to study scripture!
Answer me this question- All 12 Apostles were at the "last supper" some of them wrote in the NT,Matthew,John,Peter,James and Jude face to face with Jesus and heard every word He said. Not one of them mentioned to "keep doing this " except Paul and Luke who were not there!
The idea obviously did not come from the Apostles (eye witnesses)
Who originated the practice?
---1st_cliff on 4/1/09


Fallen men and fallen angels are both servents of Satan. But when a human dies they sleep in the ground awaiting the resurrection. So called ghosts are fallen angels impersonating the dead. When there is a real ghost.

Most are fakes and people imagination.

Many do not believe this. But we all should be able to agree on is that speaking with the dead is putting ourselves into Satan's hands.

Many books written by those who speak with the dead are against the Bible and demean GOD.
---Samuel on 4/1/09


Samuel, however i totally agree with the scripture quoted, it bassically says DONT DO IT!!! this scripture really does not say that these spirits are from the devil or not. the only refference is in the new testament where it is said that the devil can manifest himself as an agel of light. i believe that is why it is forbidden, since nobody can really knoiw the difference as long he/ she is on this earth.
---Andy on 4/1/09


Samuel, I only know of 2 types of beings made by God.
Angels and Men.
The bad or fallen angels are called demons.
So, do you agree with Bettyw that ghosts are demons, since you state they are servants of satan and are not dead people?

If not, please tell me what type of beings are you claiming to be servants of Satan?

Because Isaiah 8:19, speaks of human beings.
men who are fortunetellers (who chirp and mutter).

My bible in it's reference states: chirp and mutter, a mocking reference to the sounds uttered by necromancers, as if the dead were speaking, all such practices were forbidden.

Who are you calling the servants of satan?
fallen angels or fallen men?
---Natalie2 on 3/31/09


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natalie2- Wear your rose-colored glasses if you wish, but they are demons and I don't have to be there to know it. Acts 19:9-16 Some men tried to cast out demons with the name of Jesus whom Paul preached, and the demon notably said, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are you?" and the man with the demon attacked them, and they fled out of the house naked and wounded. They didn't have the Holy Spirit.
---bettyw on 3/31/09


Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Ghosts are servents of Satan not our dead relatives.
---Samuel on 3/31/09


This is witchcraft.
---catherine on 3/31/09


bettyw. fasting and the name of the lord have no power without the Holy spirit? let me correct you, it is rather that one cannot expell demons without the name of Jesus and true repentance.the holy SPirit is nessecary yes.however do not put TOO much emphasis upon the spirit neglecting JESUS.
As the bible teaches the Spirit is not doing his own bidding but the bidding of Him that sent Him. as Jesus could do nothing without the Father and the Spirit, so the Spirit cannot do anything without the Father and the son. IT IS A ONE GOD package deal.
---Andy on 3/31/09


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BettyW, I believe you may not know what is in my grandmother's house.
You just want them to be demons, because you can't imagine anything else.
That is okay, I did ask for some opinions. But demons I am not buying.

Demons are TRUE to their nature.
They couldn't tolerate even one day in that house with praises giving to God, esp by my grandmother.
They hate God, and would have by now shown their hate.

Peter 5:8 ..Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for [someone] to devour.

Demons hover the earth looking for souls to steal from God. Thats their purpose.
They are not here to 'house sitting' just to take a break for a century or two.

They are not demons, this I know.
---Natalie2 on 3/31/09


Bobby3, The Catholic bible has 14 more books than protestant bibles.--1st_cliff on 3/30/09

If you start off with a wrong fact at the beginning, how can I be sure about your other facts and data?

The Catholic Bible has 7 books more than the Protestant's Bible, not 14.
I have many Bibles in my home. Not one has 80 books in it.

I think you have some other Bible belonging to some other Church.
Also, as for the Syrian Orthodox Church, they also have the same number of book Bible as the Catholic Church. 73.
Our New Testament are the same. 27 books and letters.

Luther, an Catholic Priest removed 7 books from the OT. Which left only 66 book Bible for those who followed him. Not a council, no debate and by one man.
---Natalie2 on 3/31/09


Cliff: "Bobby3, The Catholic bible has 14 more books..."

Thanks for the history lesson, but I don't see how this, in any conceiveable way, answers the question I asked. You called into question Paul's writings based on the fact he was a Pharisee. Then I said, 'I guess we throw biblical inerrancy out the window'. Then you called me gullible. Then I asked what parts of the Bible were 'good', or in other words, what do you consider to be valid? What can we trust as good and true? You didn't answer that.

Let me also toss another question into the mix: By what authority do you make such decisions? In other words, on what basis do you decide things like 'Paul was wrong for saying such and such in his epistles'?

Thanks!
---Bobby3 on 3/30/09


natalie2- Demons are very delusional. They will go in and out of a person when they want to. They want to deceive, and they don't care if they make any sense at all. Fasting might not count any more to cast them out, you need the Holy Spirit of God. Even the Name of Jesus will not cast them out if you don't have the Holy Spirit. Demons are very harmful. They may be subtle about it, working on your mind and soul, instead of announcing themselves. Eventually, they will take you over. They give sickness and disease. If the babies seemed safe, it was because they were babies and God would not allow the demons to attack them.
---bettyw on 3/30/09


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Bobby3, The Catholic bible has 14 more books than protestant bibles.
The Syrian Orthodox Church does not include 2 Peter,Jude,2nd and 3rd John and Revelation!
The 66 book bible was assembled by "committee" with much disputing.
Diocletian (Emperor circa 303 CE)demanded the burning of all biblical and liturgical books,forcing the church to decide which writings they were willing to be tortured and killed for!
They came to a "consensus" and THAT'S what we have!
---1st_cliff on 3/30/09


Bettyw, It is in their nature to take over bodies.
Demons are not going to hang around for over 30 year just to sing hymns and play with babies.
The demons I know about from the Bible intend to destroy souls.
They care very little for babies.
There is no 'nice demons'.

These odd beings never once harmed anyone. NOT ONCE.

Plus, what demon you know is going to obey my first and only command?
Esp since I never had to say 'in the Name of Jesus' for them to obey.

Remember, the Disciples asked Jesus why the demons wouldn't obey them. Jesus told them they had to PRAY AND FAST.

Whatever is in my Grandmother house, I do not know.
But, I do know they are NOT demons.
---Natalie2 on 3/30/09


Well sometimes christians have put everything to much in a black and white point of vieuw. what i do know however that even when there are ghosts of the dead roaming around, the bible forbade us to enter in communion with them. this i believe for a verry specific reason, we as natural beings can be seduced and cheated so easely by spiritual beings that to comunicate really jeapourdises your life, and the life of your loved ones. i believe that once we are going to be in heaven, then our knowledge will be complete. and then we will find out which ones are good and which are wicked.
---Andy on 3/30/09


natalie- Even the demons believe and tremble, the Scripture says. Demons can and will sing if God doesn't stop them. They can pray also. I say this about demons whether they are in a person or out of a person. Satan (and demons) can appear as an angel of light. When people die they either go to hell or paradise.
---bettyw on 3/27/09


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Cliff: "Are you gullible enough to think the bible is without error?"

Um, yes.

Ok, I'll bite. Just so I know: Which parts of the Bible are good? Not good (besides Paul's stuff)?

Thanks.
---Bobby3 on 3/27/09


No!

Ecc 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
---jerry6593 on 3/26/09


Natalie2- They are demons masquerading as ghosts.--bettyw

Thanks, but demons are not nice and do not sing Christian Hymns.

These odd visitors never tried to take over anyone's body and harm us.
Whenever I visit, I make an annoucement to them outloud (which my family thinks it is crazy) "I don't want to hear you or see anything."
Strangely enough, they complied.
I never hear or see anything from them since I started telling them. 15 years now.

The new stories comes from other members of my family and friends when they are at my grandmother's house.

I don't think demons are willing to take any demands from me.

Anyway, the house has been Blessed by a Priest a long time ago just to make sure.
---Natalie2 on 3/26/09


MarkV, The Orthodox view is their "opinion"
Not one I share if you consider..there are no original manuscripts in existence, of the hundreds of scraps and pieces of copies there are no 2 identical manuscripts!
If God indeed composed it would He not have preserved it too?
Would He have used a Pharisee whom Jesus denounced as from the devil to write 12/13 books of scripture?

I believe the Christian train was derailed about 50/60 CE! The OT "is" the bible!
The "gospels" testify of Christ!
---1st_cliff on 3/25/09


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Betty, not according to :

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) such an one caught up to the third heaven.......How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/09


Natalie2- They are demons masquerading as ghosts.
---bettyw on 3/25/09


1 Cliff, I believe the original writings are without error.
The Orthodox view of inspiration is that God worked through the personalities of the biblical writers in such a way that, what they produced was literally "God Breathed" 2 Tim. 3:16. Greek: "Theopneustos." The emphasis of the text is that Scripture itself, not the writers only, was inspired. Scripture is and always will remain the depository of the Truth, whether or not we read and appropriate it personally. It is in the interpretation where all the problems arise. Bibles out there contain or exclude Idioms that make the original meaning of a phrase different from the original writers intend, nevertheless the Truth will still be revealed by the Spirit.
---MarkV. on 3/25/09


I am Catholic and the RCC teaches that Ghosts do not exist.

But, the Popes and Bishops never slept in my grandmother's house.

I can not say what the odd things that goes on in that house.
They (Ghosts) are not mean, nor never tried to harm us. They seem to enjoy babies more than anything.
Whenever a baby is in the house, their evidence of movement seems to be harder to ignore.

I don't know what to call them, but ghosts.
Plus, they seem to be ladies ghosts.
Other visitors who had slept at her house have told us they heard a old woman singing 'old black hymns.' Yes, christians hymns

I personally never heard her or them. I only hear objects moving.

If not ghosts, please someone tell me what?
---Natalie2 on 3/24/09


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Bobby 3,*So goes biblical inerrancy*
Are you gullible enough to think the bible is without error?
---1st_cliff on 3/24/09


Bobby 3: In Acts 23.6 Paul said "Iam a Pharisee son of a Pharisee" not "used to be" or "once was",but even then still a Pharisee.
What kind of influence does a person who writes 1/2 the NT have on the Christian congregation?
What (or who) you believe is your own personal matter.
Frankly I don't believe someone or anyone just because "everybody" does or because my proof is "because I said so!"
---1st_cliff on 3/23/09


kathr- The holy of holies does not exist on earth any more, but they say there is one in Heaven. Heaven and Paradise are two different places.
---BettyW on 3/22/09


Cliff: "Pharisees believed in the soul's immortality, so this statement was made by the chief Pharisee of the day!"

So goes biblical inerrancy. If what you say is true, Paul is discredited, and we'd have to throw a good chunk of the NT out the window. If he's wrong about the soul's continued existence following bodily death (Notice I did NOT say 'immortality'. This discussion seems to have gotten stuck on this word.), then he might be wrong about something else.
---Bobby3 on 3/21/09


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kathr4453: I'm sure your answer makes sense to you, but I still see a contradiction in Jesus' own words if your theory were correct. Paradise IS heaven, as is easily proved.
---jerry6593 on 3/21/09


Mark: I'm telling you right now, it is my pleasure to provide mirth for you.

How do you explain Jesus' contradictory remarks?
---jerry6593 on 3/21/09


jerry6593. When Jesus body was in the tomb was His Spirit there too, or was He in soul sleep? Jesus died in the flesh...but to say Jesus Died is to say God died....

What then is your understanding about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I also believe according to Luke, and OT Sheol/Hades/abyss that Abraham's Bosom was where Paradise existed...and the man looking UP said to Abraham....it certainly was UP above Hades or the place of torment. If Abraham was in Paradise, the man next to Jesus also went there the moment he passed away.

These OT Saints we are told are NOW the spirits of Just men MADE PERFECT...Heb 12....their perfection came the day Jesus rose from the dead, and Paradise is NOW in the Holy of Holies!
---kathr4453 on 3/20/09


Jerry, your answer was very funny to me. ***Dad: [to boy] I'm telling you right now (today), I will (future) take you to Disney World.*** Why would he have to say today I am telling you, when the thief was hearing him perfectly that day. It could not have been another day. Your arguement is rediculous and actually funny, in to what extend you will go. Just admit you are wrong and move on. What is wrong with that?
---MarkV. on 3/20/09


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kathr4453: You still are left with having made Jesus a liar since two days later He had not yet ascended to heaven. Why are spiritualistic beliefs (that the dead are not really dead) so important to you?
---jerry6593 on 3/20/09


Mark V: I love you, too. You should, however strive for better accuracy when you quote yourself: "Is it so hard to grasp?" is not quite the same as "Is is [sic] so hard for you to grasp that?" -MarkV. on 3/9/09 The copy is much less ascerbic than the original. But, I forgive you.

Now you accuse me of being legalistic for upholding the Sabbath. I merely remind you that the 4th Commandment is of no greater or less import than the other nine. Would you call me legalistic for insisting that we refrain from murder, theft, adultery, etc.? Was Jesus legalistic for keeping ALL TEN Commandments? Then I am too. I want to be just like Jesus. How about you?
---jerry6593 on 3/20/09


Cliff: I appreciate the first 2/3 of your response. Maybe you could re-post your conclusion.

Jerry: I'm still having trouble with the Luke passage. You say moving the comma solves the problem, but we are left with the question about what was going on with Jesus between death and resurrection. I've yet to receive a response to this question.

Secondly, as pointed out by others, there is no hopeless contradiction between the Luke passage and John 20 if Jesus meant He hasn't 'ascended' to the Father in the Daniel 7 sense.
---Bobby3 on 3/19/09


"Absent from the body present with the lord" is a silly statement,nothing leaves the body at death except your breath!Period!

Pharisees believed in the soul's immortality,so this statement was made by the chief Pharisee of the day!

It was wrong then and it's wrong now!
Unless you're resurrected death is final!(wages of sin)
---1st_cliff on 3/19/09


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Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, "shalt thou be with me in paradise"????


If you really want to say it should be this way, Jesus would then be asking a question!
---kathr4453 on 3/19/09


***Dad: [to boy] I'm telling you right now (today), I will (future) take you to Disney World.***


Jerry that is really silly. You say there is no comma....then read it without any comma...YOU are placing the comma AFTER changing the meaning to what YOU want it to say.


And Jesus said unto him today....you will be with me in paradise? Even if you wanted to place a comma there, it makes no grammatical sense, if Jesus is talking to him right there in the present...with your interpretation, there would be NO reason to remind the man it was Today He was having this conversation. Do you think Jesus was delirious or something?

AND it proves ...absent from the body, present with the Lord.

Sorry, don't buy it!!
---kathr4453 on 3/19/09


kathr4453: OK, I'll use your example to explain my reading of the scripture.

Boy: Please take me to Disney World (I live in Orlando).

Dad: [to boy] I'm telling you right now (today), I will (future) take you to Disney World.

Dad: [two days later to Mary] I have not yet been to Disney World.

Silly, huh? And it doesn't make a liar out of Dad! Your version would.
---jerry6593 on 3/19/09


Jerry,

The word TODAY in Greek, semeron appears 63 times in KJV,39 times as "day" ,23 times as "this day" , once as "this days". It means this very day, immediately, right now or this present day.

First the thief said: "Remember me when you come into your kingdom."


Example:Boy says to father, "Take me with you when you go to Disneyland."
Father says to boy, "Today you will be with me in the parking garage."

Silly Huh!
Jesus Christ, answered the thief sending a message to us.

He equated Paradise with His Kingdom and being with Him.

He assured the thief that NOW - TODAY - we can be assured of our salvation.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/09


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Jerry, just because I said, "Is it so hard to grasp?" doesn't mean I am nasty. I actually like your answers very much in almost all points with the exception of when you want to throw in the Sabbath. Then you move from discussing doctrines to been legalistic about the Sabbath.
And second of all, I am not Kathr. Kathr has a few points that I am very much against. I am not Anne either because she has the wrong gospel and I am not Eloy because I am not God. I am Mark V. who loves you Jerry.
---MarkV. on 3/18/09


Absolutely not.If there is something supernatural it's either angels or demons.
---shirley on 3/17/09


Bobby 3: Looks like #3 was not posted?
---1s_cliff on 3/17/09


#2..The priests looked down on the common person as tho they were lepers,with dogs licking their sores, they had to beg for little scraps of spiritual food,that was dolled out sparingly,lest they learn too much and the priests lose their high position.
The advent of Jesus changed all this,noted by the symotaneous death of the two principals.
Jesus taught the poor,who became less dependant on the Rabbis..feeling the "heat" they tried for "compromise" as a little drop of water on the tongue,
Sorry but the gulf between the two was too great. cont..
---1st_cliff on 3/15/09


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Bobby3, Time is limited so I'll give you a thumbnail sketch!
!st century the Rabbis were the VIPs of the day,as Jesus said Mat.23.5-7,that they enjoyed the notoriety "the best seats at a banquet, being greeted in the market place as "Rabbi" etc. Dressed in purple and fine linen they were "rich" not just in money,but in the "word" as most were illiterate and depended on the priests for their "spiritual"food of which the Rabbis had in abundance.
Mat 5,"blessed are the "poor" in spirit,blessed are they that "hunger and thirst" after righteousness.
They are the "Lazerus"class..cont.
---1st_cliff on 3/15/09


kathr4453: If you'll notice, mine was a generic statement - I did not use the word "you" as MarkV did when addressing me. That made it personal. Speaking of personal, are you actually MarkV? You seem to be speaking on his behalf.

Would you care to explain the apparent contradiction in Christ's words when adopting MarkV's position?
---jerry6593 on 3/14/09


Continue please..


***B3: Sure! Only those who are NOT immortal need to "put on" immortality at the resurrection. How do YOU reconcile the verses if we are already immortal? Good grief, this stuff is not that deep!
---jerry6593 on 3/4/09

Jerry6593, Just so you know I'm not picking on you for no reason...but can you tell me why this too would not be considered nasty?
---kathr4453 on 3/13/09


Markv: "Is is so hard for you to grasp that?"

You needn't get nasty - you may cause the Mods to cancel the blog.
---jerry6593 on 3/12/09

Is asking someone if something is hard to grasp NASTY? NO! But it does seem interesting that these cyber tantrums are more for effect in TRYING to make others look bad.

jerry6593, I didn't see anything nasty at all.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/09


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Cliff: Thanks. I'm looking forward to it.

Jerry/Steveng: What do you guys believe happened to Jesus between death and resurrection?

What do you believe happens to any other person between death and resurrection?

What exactly does it mean to say that the soul 'sleeps' or is 'asleep'?

Can there be such a thing as an unembodied human soul?

I thank you guys in advance for the answers to these questions, as I believe the answers will help to clarify a few points in our discussion.
---Bobby3 on 3/13/09


Bobby 3, Laserus and the rich man explanation comming up over the week end.
---1st_cliff on 3/12/09


1st cliff, ok thats interrsesing, ruach and pneumah oke but my question was first and foremost what do YOU imply with the bible, The original hebrew/ aramaic/ and greek writing or the translations, the KJV NIV or TEV? old and new with or without the duetero cononical books. you see first Cliff most of us here know also how to read and write. so ghet down from that steaming horse, andhave open discussions.for after all a soft answer turns of the wrath.
---Andy on 3/12/09


It was His physical body that you are talking about that was to remain for 40 days.

Absolutely. Thomas even TOUCHED His side and looked at His nail pierced hands. Thomas said I won't believe until I see. Thomas did not see a Ghost.

The same Jesus that ascended Acts 1:11 will be the very same Jesus that will descend at His second coming, upon the mount of Olives. He will Not be a Ghost.

Zachariah 14: 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, .......5: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/09


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Markv: "Is is so hard for you to grasp that?"

You needn't get nasty - you may cause the Mods to cancel the blog. I have pointed out a direct contradiction in Christ's words if your interpretation is accepted. You respond with a rant of non-biblical conjecture and personal attack.

Do yourself a favor. Search the scriptures to see how many times the state of the dead is described as unconscious. Then search for how many times they are ascribed immortality and conscious awareness in death. Then weigh the evidence. Let me know what you find.
---jerry6593 on 3/12/09


MarkV: An excellent interpretation of passages in question. Thank you.

Cliff: "Conspiracy theory?"

Yes, conspiracy theory. You have theorized that 'fundamentalists' conspired to tweak the content of the Bible in order to advance a certain agenda, namely to 'perpetuate the...belief in immortality of the soul' (your post on 03/05). Implicit in this is the admission that the English translations of the Bible do indeed affirm what you are arguing against, or else you would not have had to suggest that 'fundamentalists' tampered with the translation.

But let us refocus. I was promised an interpretation of the Lazarus parable.
---Bobby3 on 3/11/09


Bobby3:Conspiracy theory? What are the facts?

Jesus said "you will be "with" me..where they buried together? NO!
Then it HAD to be future since EVERY bible scholar knows Jesus went to the grave!

"In paradise"..not a Hebrew nor Greek word but Persian,meaning *park or garden,surrounded by trees* Definitely not the tomb (with a little imagination it could be the cemetary,but I highly doubt that)

Nowhere in this whole scenario does it mention "bodies" Jesus gave His "life" not His Body!!FYI
---1st_cliff on 3/9/09


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