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War With Islam

What is your opinion of the statement?

ANKARA, Turkey Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam."

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 ---mima on 4/6/09
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Now I ask you is one built for honoring scripture by bringing their humanist element into it?
---Trav on 5/28/09

GOD does not change agree?

For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi 3:5-7

Men / humanist do change. If it seems right/modern....they will do it. Men/women try to change scripture to fit their own desires or purpose. Can be noted here.

My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
Proverbs 24:20-22
---Trav on 6/1/09


Conequently I conclude from your blog that You believe that God MAKES some good, and some bad? i know quite a few scriptures against that idea. The potters' house is the church, not the world. the clay is brought out of the world into the church So God forms it according His desire. PS. humanist is a thing i never concider. still a true humanist wil not refuse most bible teachings on etics, loving caring etc... it is where God salvation holiness enters, that they fight us violantly. they believe everyone is his own god, and desides therfore for himself. humanists terminate someones life because that is humain... abort for humain reasons... and go so on. they dodnot accept God
---Andy on 5/29/09


Trav, are you saying God made them wicked?
---Andy on 5/28/09


21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
---Trav on 5/27/09

I try to keep opinion out of my blogs as much as possible. You won't see many replys to me at times because of scripture answering or shedding light.
The most prideful,arrogant,opinionated, indoctrinated like their opinions and a good tussle....until they don't have scriptural witnesses to back them up. Then they avoid, change subject or flat run away.

Now I ask you is one built for honoring scripture by bringing their humanist element into it?
---Trav on 5/28/09


Trav should we love our enemies? Read Matt 5:43-47 for one example.
---Warwick on 5/28/09


Trav, are you saying God made them wicked?
PS. however i do reply every day for some reason majority of my writings do not come through.
---Andy on 5/28/09




WARWICK, nevermind the anecdotal opinions of professors that only 20% of the Arab world follows the teachings of the Koran. Zogby, the famous Arab polster, says the number of American Muslims who follow the Koran is about 30%, and 47% strictly follow teachings on fasting. It would be incredulous to believe the percentage of strict adherance in the Middle East would be lower than among American Muslims. Facts are stubborn and while the circular arguements continue the Prince of Persia remains busy in his domain.
This powerful demon will and was always at war with the seed of Abraham(in faith) long before there was such a thing as a settled North America. When all else fails see scripture.


---larry on 5/27/09


Conversely Jesus commands we love everyone, even those who try to do us harm.

Completely different.
---Warwick on 5/24/09

Your scripture above in not in Scripture. Not understanding you preach personal scripture.

AS MANY AS I LOVE, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Revelation 3:18-20

GOD does not say he loves "everyone". David a man after his own heart did not confirm you either.
I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psalm 139:21-23
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:12-14
---Trav on 5/27/09


Andy you wrote 'So there are people that are so wicked that no good can be found in them? i do not believe that you believe that.'
---Warwick on 5/25/09

Andy, as you're aware... some build sand/air castles around passages they can contend with....some search all, in faith believe stated truth.

18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
---Trav on 5/27/09


Larry get a copy of 'Islam & Terrorism' by Dr Mark A Gabriel and 'Defying Death' about Rev. Zachariah Botros, by Stuart Robinson. These will give you a greater understanding of the subject.

You can research both men on the web.

It is the considered opinion of those working in Muslim countries that a minority follow the Koran and therefore commit terrorist attrocities against 'infidels.'

Rev. Botros believes it is about 20%.

You wrote 'Further there is no evidence allegiance to the Koran would reduce the influence of the Prince of Persia (Daniel 10) and the attacks by Muslim extremists against the West.'

You have lost me here. Greater allegiance to the Koran would most assuredly increase such attacks.
---Warwick on 5/26/09


Andy you wrote 'So there are people that are so wicked that no good can be found in them? i do not believe that you believe that.'

I wrote my last blog as it seemed to me that you still nad not understood my point. The point being that: Muslim's (the people)are not the problem, Islam (the religion) is.

There is good and bad in all people: we can each do wonderful, loving things and then do evil. However there is no evil in Jesus commands, but much evil in Islam, as shown. Read Islam & Terrorism By Mark A Gabriel and 'Defying Death' by Stuart Robinson, and I am sure you will understand what I am saying.

Keep up your good work with those who desperately need to hear The Good News!
---Warwick on 5/25/09




WARWICK..Thankfully most Muslims do not follow the Koran?
Where is the empircal evidence of this my brother,I have seen no such study?
Further there is no evidence allegiance to the Koran would reduce the influence of the Prince of Persia (Daniel 10) and the attacks by Muslim extremists against the West.
The Prince of Persia is one of the few actual descriptive titles of a principality in scripture. It is perilous to underestimate his dominion over this section of the globe. The fact that it took an Archangel 21 days of spiritual fighting in the air to make it to Daniels side is nothing less than incredible. Its not really about Bin Laden ,Ahmadinejad or the Republican Guard.
---larry on 5/25/09


Warwick, i do read your blogs verry carefully, and letb it be clear to you now, that ido not follow you on your last blog, where you responding to MY last blog? If so then im afraid you did not understand that i defended MYSELF from the (hidden) accustation of oecomenialism. maybe you did not realise that your words refer to that however you did say that however that is nice, still it is misguided. I suggest that you read my last blog away from our discussiuon, and you will see that im right in what i said in that specific last blog, as a reaction towards your specific last blog. (i did not even use muslims in the qiestioned blog, only humanity as a full).
---Andy on 5/25/09


Andy you need to carefully read what I have written.

I have explained, over and over, that Muslim's are not the problem but are victims of Islam.

I AM NOT saying that any group of people are, of themselves, better than any other group. Is that clear?

I have been comparing the behaviour of two groups: Those who faithfully follow Allah and those who faithfully follow Jesus.

The Koran does command that Muslim's kill those who step away from Islam and those who will not accept Islam. We know that happens in Islamic countries on a daily basis.

This has nothing to do with 'self-defence.'

Conversely Jesus commands we love everyone, even those who try to do us harm.

Completely different.
---Warwick on 5/24/09


Warwick, you said: Andy I think you are someone who tries to see the good in everything, even if it isn't there. That's nice but often a misguided sentiment. My Quetsion: So there are people that are so wicked that no good can be found in them? i do not believe that you believe that. even the worst person on earth is able to do good. and the most wicked is worthy for Jesus to die for. that, my brother, does not justify their sins at all. so to say that i see good in evil is wrong. rather i believe that God has a salvationplan with everyone, and i love the sinner before they repent, Just like Jesus did i go to the prostitutes and fornicators,preaching salvation, bring them in church and let the glory of God shine upon them unto change.
---Andy on 5/22/09


Donna,

You should read my argument a little more closely. I never said that Muslims don't CLAIM to have a history, I've said that there is no written history that actually connects Ishmael to Islam.

The claim there is history without producing the evidence is a very hollow one. The onus of proof is on anyone who claims there is documentation connecting Ishmael to Islam. If no one can produce evidence, please, please hold your peace.
---Marc on 5/21/09


Andy I think you are someone who tries to see the good in everything, even if it isn't there. That's nice but often a misguided sentiment.

The verses I quoted, and others, are not about self-defence. They are about murdering any Muslim who quits the faith, and anyone who will not submit to Islam. Islam is in essence a religion spread by conquest. Submit or die!

Surah 9:81 condemns those Muslim's who will not fight to conquer and convert. As Dr Mark A. Gabriel (Ex Imam and professor of Islam) says 'Obviously you can see that killing, or jihad is not an option. It is a must because it is Allah's command Surah 9:29. Every Muslim must do it to fulfil his faith.'

Thankfully most Muslim's don't follow all the Koran.
---Warwick on 5/20/09


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Let us consider that Mohammed was a uneducated camel herder who married a rich older woman whose first husband had once own camel caravans. While acting as a caravan leader Mohammed came in contact with the Jewish people and from them leaned a little Old Testament knowledge. After incorporating this knowledge(what he remembered from conversations) he then dictated the Koran to another person.

All of these strange and confusing facts were used by Satan to create Islam.
---mima on 5/20/09


that half of the coranic verses where written in time of wars, and consequently dealt with selfdefence and the right to exist. that is why these coranic verses have aviolent tendancy nevertheless the moderate muslim will explain it in this way, fundamentals are always in war with everyone... (however we need to be aware that islam does Not save, and that only Christ can bring us near the father.)
---Andy on 5/20/09


Marc --

The Muslims DO, indeed, claim a history. They claim that they are descendents of Abraham. They claim that THEY are the "children of promise" that fulfilled God's promise to Abraham. Check out any source on the foundations of Islam to see this.

I just thought it would be intersting for someone to look for the names of the "twelve princes" of Ishmael in the history of any Muslim sect. (I'm not interested enough to do it myself, however)

Muslim scholars are not ignorant of the Old Testament. Mohammed, in fact, took both the OT and NT into account in his search for the "Truth".
---Donna66 on 5/19/09


Andy, thank you for your reply. However I am not sure what point you are endeavouring to make. Can you please explain?
---Warwick on 5/19/09


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Warwick, any inqiusitioner was working, according to his own knowledge, (this indoctrinated by shrewed and unfaithfull Church-leaders) Righteous biblical acts. As avery fundamentalist muslim commits according to his own knowledge, (also indoctrinated by shrewed and unfaithfull imams) righteous biblical acts.
---Andy on 5/19/09


Donna,

There is no written history that connects these names and what occurred more than 2000 years later i.e. AD 600. And that's my point: if there is none, there is none.

Muslims have written their history back into the Bible's history but haven't supplied any proof.

The immediate ancestors of the first Muslims were, for the most part, illiterate, tent-dwellers. As such, they didn't leave books on their lives. Who knows they came from? I don't. They don't. You don't.
---Marc on 5/19/09


Andy you likened violence committed by 'Christians' to violence faithful (to the Koran) Muslim's do. Any Christian who does such things is acting directly against Jesus. Are they therefore Christian?

I pointed out Muslims who commit murder of those who walk away from Islam, and those who will not accept it, are being consistent with the Koran.

I don't remember you admitting my reasoning was correct.

You are right there are Muslims (thankfully the majority) who do not follow what the Koran commands in these issues.

Yes we do agree on some things but I do not know if we agree about the above.

I did not use verses which concern self-defence. See Surah's 4:89, 47:4 and 8:39 for example.
---Warwick on 5/18/09


>>there is no actual evidence, as far as I can tell, that connects Ishmael with present day Muslims<<
>---Marc on 5/14/09

It might be quite possible to find this evidence.

Gen 17:20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly, twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth, and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
Gen 25:16 These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names.

If you want to research these names in the early history of Islam, you may have your answer.
---Donna66 on 5/19/09


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NurseRobert, no I did not see your wink.

If indeed you did mean it in a humorous way then I am in error. My apologies.
---Warwick on 5/18/09


And to answer your other questions.....

David Koresh claimed to be Christian and the leader of his group, I don't believe anything he said either.

Jim Jones claimed to be a Christian and know the bible. I don't believe anything he said either.

Pat Robinson claims to be a pastor and a Christian.. I have trouble believing anything that comes from him either.

I don't take anyone's word as gospel. I like to read, study and understand it for myself. If people spent more time reading and studying, instead of taking things at face value.. well, it would probably be a better world.
---NurseRobert on 5/18/09


NurseRobert, I take it back. I am not impressed.

---Warwick on 5/18/09

Did you not see the wink at the end of my post??

Lighten up, guy... life is too short as it is.
---NurseRobert on 5/18/09


Warwick, In what way do we disagree again? maybe my sayings are not clear but bassically (since the first time we disagreed alot has been clarified) we agree on a lot.
both see the coran as error (the disagreement was here that u used a coranic verse that rather talks about self-defense then plain murder).both agree that the coran is encouraging its followers for violence. (however i stated that this also depends on the coranic school they follow. we have moderate, radical and fundamental muslims, and their vieuws are miles seperated).
both agree that Jesus is the only way to salvation
---Andy on 5/18/09


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NurseRobert, I take it back. I am not impressed.

Why would you make such a prejudicial comment i.e. that you may not believe what an ex-Muslim, expert in the Koran says? Especially as his whole case is based upon his experience as an imam, and professor of Islam at Cairo university, and the Koran.

Do you figure you know more than him or the Koran?
---Warwick on 5/18/09


No reason to be impressed. I may read it, but Idon't guarantee I will believe it. ,)
---NurseRobert on 5/17/09


NurseRobert I am impressed. Very few people will buy a book which may challenge their position. And I believe even fewer would admit to the purchase.
---Warwick on 5/17/09


Warwick... just letting you know I haven't forgotten you. I did get the book and Im reading it. With work and all it may take more time than I want, but I will be back to continue the discussion.
---NurseRobert on 5/16/09


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Andy I wrote oxymoron-a contradiction in terms so that anyone who did not understand the word would see what I meant. Not everyone here is well read and not everyone has English as their first language. Maybe I should have written 'oxymoron ( meaning a contradiction in terms).' Hindsight is so clear.

Very sad. I may think your view is wrong but I do not think you are any sort of moron.

God bless.
---Warwick on 5/15/09


Trav
>My point was, and continues to be, that there is no actual evidence, as far as I can tell, that connects Ishmael with present day Muslims
>---Marc on 5/14/09

Jesus....was known by his marks/signs. Even today. Ask John the Baptist...who was not given a printed document of heritage by Jesus. I mean...Lepers healed, blind could see, lame could walk....how much more did he need. Scripture witnessed.

If like nations killing other like nations, their tribe,his tribe,your tribe.....how much blood do you require as a mark.

If a nation is Anti-Christ for 2000 years...do you need another year to decide who they represent?

GOT any marks...Marc? Laws in heart and mind? Heb 8:10, Jer 31:31.
---Trav on 5/15/09


Dear Warwick,, the reason why i did not understand ytour word, oxymoron, was because you put it in such a way as to make a new word: "oxymoron-contradiction in terms" is bad spelling and only sais two times the same. as some people would say i did not do nothing this actually is a total blasting of proper English (slang). so is oxymoron-contradiction (wich led me to asume that the moron part and oxy where actually insults. thank God i asked. i read it following
oxy (from ox, a little cow. id est. a calf
moron id est. no explanation need. so i thought first that you say that i mad a calflike idiot contradiction. pretty sad is it not?
---Andy on 5/15/09


Trav,

It could be that this prophecy is talking about Arabs and Islam. On the other hand, it may not be.

My point was, and continues to be, that there is no actual evidence, as far as I can tell, that connects Ishmael with present day Muslims except by Muslims reading their own existence back into that prophecy.

This is unlike the Jews who have kept a continuous record of their history.
---Marc on 5/14/09


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Andy, I forgot to answer your question.

You wrote 'I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT HATE WHAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW JESUS DO' I replied '(this)is an oxymoron-contradiction in terms. You asked 'can you explain oxymoron to me please.'

I could not make sense of this statement. I used 'oxymoron' in the sense of 'a contradiction in terms.'

I could not fathom how anyone could hate what faithful Christians do: do no harm, pray for enemies, do good to those who hate and misuse you.

Your comment appeared a contradiction in terms but on reflection I suppose some do truly hate Jesus followers, those doing what He commands. Many Christian aid workers have been murdered simply because they were following His commands.
---Warwick on 5/14/09


Trav seems to be saying I should hate them! Which is also not Biblical truth. We are told to be children of Love,
---Warwick on 5/1/09

Word "Enemy" does not have to include hate. I don't hate them, or you.
Even though you both are enemies of truth.
br>Marc: An Irony....exercise your name. Research.
Ishamaels mark. Ishmaels offsprings mark.
And he will be a wild man, his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
Genesis 16:11-13

Luke 19:26-28
27those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
---Trav on 5/4/09
---Trav on 5/13/09


Andy I have not lost my temper as you say.

As far as I am concerned I commented fairly upon that which you wrote.

I always try to be clear and direct and have no desire to offend you, or anyone, only to defend the truth. The truth in itself can be offensive. Jesus offended many and the cross is an offence to many more.

Nonetheless if I have done so inadvertantly please forgive me.
---Warwick on 5/13/09


Still you owe an apology since you did lose your temper over things that where misunderstood. according to you i am to proud, blog 5/7 read also my blog 5/4 your blog 5/1 your blog 5/5 5/6, how you misunderstood trav 5/8 your post 5/9 now there you say something verry interesting. i posted many of my blogs for Alan. it is interesting that our dispute started before these blogs. when i gave an example to show how you sound this was your reply " Therefore to say 'I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT HATE WHAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW JESUS DO' is an oxymoron-contradiction in terms. can you explain oxymoron to me please.
---Andy on 5/12/09


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Andy you wrote, 'Warwick i regret to say but however your heart is right, you hate muslims, and have allready condemned them.'

This is not the truth as my quotes given to Alan show. The quotes show the opposite.

I don't expect an apology.
---Warwick on 5/12/09


MarkV said: "The Arabs are in the line of Ishmael so consider themselves of the promise."

That's my question. I don't know of any actual evidence that connects Ishmael (c.1700BC) to Muhammad and the Arabs (AD600). I think it's a bit of Muslim propaganda. It's also a bit of parasitic opportunism living off the Jewish written history.

Mark, the latest propaganda from the Left and Islam is that Arabs are the Canaanites who were squatting Israel while the Israelites were slaves in Egypt. No evidence, but an argument from silence: "Look, the Canaanites just didn't disappear. They must have become someone, and that someone are the present day Muslim Arabs." How convenient!
---Marc on 5/11/09


Amen Jerry, thats the truth.
---MarkV. on 5/11/09


Marc, as to your question I would like to say that by the actions of the muslims towards Israel, they give evidence that they want to elimate Israel at any cost. Moslims believe that God gave the Promised Land to them. Therefore, the land of Israel is rightully Arab, not Jewish. According to the Koran and Moslem tradition, the Jew's are the intractable enemies of Islam and must be destroyed. This goes back to the Promise given to Abraham. The promise was made that through Sarah the free women was the Seed going to come, and all the promises through Isaac not Ishmael. The Arabs are in the line of Ishmael so consider themselves of the promise.
---MarkV. on 5/11/09


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Warwick, i have never acused, i only concluded because of what you wrote. as you concluded out of my responses that i believe that every religion is right in its own way (you said i equate islam and christianity. making me a allways lead to Christ kind-a-guy. Now for such a thing, since the source of misunderstanding lies truly at your side, i do not see any need of apology. it would seem to me rather that if anyone should apologise it would be you. because of your answerrs thazt have led faithfull people to come to wrong conclussions.
---Andy on 5/11/09


It is strange how the love of argument can impede the exchange of information. Clearly, both Christianity and Islam rest on the foundations of books that each calls sacred. The teachings of of the Bible are of God. At least some of the teachings of the Koran are evil - thus of Satan. The writers of the Bible were godly men. Mohammad was a thief, a murderer and a pedophile. If a religion is based on a book which contains evil, and written by a man who committed evil acts, how can that religion be of God? It can't! If the foundation is rotten, the whole structure will be rotten. Christianity and Islam are NOT equal. One is good, the other evil. Are there good Muslim people? To be sure, but they need Christ just as we Christians do.
---jerry6593 on 5/9/09


Both Mic and Andy believe that Islam came from Ishmael and Hagar. I don't know of any evidence for this. Can you provide me with any?
---Marc on 5/9/09


MarkV, as usual you have it right.

I hate no Muslim but hate the terrible violence faithful Muslim's do, that which the Koran commands them to do. As I have said those who follow Allah's murderous commands are victims themselves.

I pray that they may come to see the truth of Jesus, and His free offer of forgiveness. Reports say many are. Praise God for their salvation.
---Warwick on 5/8/09


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Andy, you wrote, 'Warwick i regret to say but however your heart is right, you hate muslims, and have allready condemned them.

A few days ago I posted many of my comments for Alan. There is no hate there. You have falsely accused me of a serious sin. You are not prepared to apologize so let us leave it there.

I have been very clear to say:

The violence faithful Mulims do is commanded by the Koran. They are commanded to kill those who leave Islam, or those who will not accept Islam. They do, in massive numbers each year.

They are right to say Allah commands me to murder infidels.

Conversely our Lord & Saviour Jesus forbids us to murder anyone. We are to pray for our enemies, not murder them.
---Warwick on 5/8/09


Warwick ... It shows how differently people read things!

I never thought Andy was saying you hated followers of the Koran!

Perhaps we juump to conclusions about what someone else says ... This often happens when they are on opposite sides of a discussion. One party (or perhaps both) assumes that everything the other side says will be in opposition, and looks for the worst possible reading of it.

It's even happened that one person who traditionally disagrees with the other person, on a particular issue agrees with them ... yet that agreement is still assumed to be hostile!

These blogs are strewn with mis-statements/misunderstandings about what others have said.

We all need to be a bit more careful about this
---alan8566_of_UK on 5/8/09


Warwick, as i have allready replied two times yet it never arrived let me try once more to ghet a reply towards you.
My last blog seemed to be quite open in what my mind is. andy on 5/1 and 5/4. Never i equated that what Christians do with that what Muslims do. i did equate that what christianity(as a cultural system)has done in the name of Jesus as what Muslims do in the name of Allah. i did talk about the fact that bible rejects these practises and the coran rather encourages them. IT IS YOU who keeps acusing me, i do not need to apologise for what i said since i did say the truth. still i know that you are offended because i said YOU twist the Coran in order to make a point. (i believe that is the real reason for your anger)
---Andy on 5/8/09


Warwick, I believe your response on 4/29/09 was explained very well. Here is how I see it and how I believe you are explaining it. You hate the Koran and the "actions" of those who follow its teachings. They "have faith in the Koran." They kill because of their faith in what the Koran teaches. Not the individual himself. They were not so call Muslim's but had faith in what the Koran teaches.
If we were to say, "What about the so call Christains crusators who murdered in the name of Jesus" those people were not following the teachings of Scripture. "They were people without faith." For no teachings from the Gospel of Christ call us to kill. Did I get it right Warwick?
---MarkV. on 5/8/09


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Alan we always have to see things in context. Otherwise a sentence on its own can give a different meaning.

Trav understood what I was saying and appeared to suggest I should hate them.

However I cannot hate people, but pray for those who reject Him. I want to see them in heaven, not hell. I don't know much about hell but it gets bad press so I don't intend to go there!
---Warwick on 5/8/09


Warwick ... it just shows how diffretn people read things in different ways.

I was reacting to his specific complaint about that particular sentence. Looking at that sentence in itself (and not taking into account its context) it would mean that you hate everything that a Koran folllowere does .. including loving his wife, feeding his children etc.

I would say I hate Richard Dawkins' atheism, and the effect his writings have on people's faith, but I could not say that everything he does is evil, so I cannot hate all that he does
---alan8566_of_UK on 5/7/09


Alan, if you go back and read the posts you will see Andy was equating the evil that Christians do, with that done by Muslims.

I pointed out the Koran commands violence against those who leave Islam, and those who will not submit, giving references, and a good book to read.

Therefore in committing violence upon others any Muslim who follows these Koranic commands, will murder, consistent with what the Koran commands he do.

Conversely if a 'Christian' should carry out such violence he is acting directly against Jesus' commands, is therefore not consistent with Whom he follows, therefore is no Christian.

I don't think Andy has misunderstood but will not accept the obvious and apologize-too proud.
---Warwick on 5/7/09


It's true. They really wanted the oil and the rebuilding contracts in Baghdad. They wanted a base in the Middle East. The real enemy is (now don't all come down on me for saying this) but it is still the Jews. And indeed they are very vulnerable because they are always being blamed for being anti-Muslim, when all the financing comes from the USA. They are always being made to take the blame. Blame the Jews for the Banking system, blame them for Hollywood, blame them for the media control. But it isn't them. You need to read between the lines. There is another group of highly intelligent persons, orchestrating it from BEHIND the scenes.
---frances008 on 5/6/09


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Warwick ... I was only commenting on Andy's objection to your remark 'I do not hate Muslims but hate what those who follow the Koran do'

Now that phrase grammatically means that you hate ALL actions of those that follow the Koran.

Do you mean that? Do you mean that every single action of a Koran follower is to be hated?

Surely not?
---alan8566_of_UK on 5/7/09


Alan look at quotes from my blogs (below) and show me hate!

I asked Andy to show my hate or apologize-no result.

'....a saying -Jesus loves the sinner but hates the sin.'

'I do not hate Mulsims but hate what those who follow the Koran do'

'I have made it clear that my criticism is not of people but of the Koran, of which they are victims..'

'If you are helping Muslim's to come to faith in Christ then may God bless you.'

'Muslim's are not the problem but..victims...'

'..I asked the Lord to visit Osama Bin Laden, show him the evil of his ways, that he might repent.'

'..would I pray for him if I hated him..'

'..show me where I have expressed hate...'
---Warwick on 5/6/09


So, as for Muslims, Jesus commanded us (Christans) to be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves. Love your enemy. So Obama, is trying to make peace. We must, MUST strive for peace and love with our "neighbor."
---maria2331 on 5/6/09
Maria, we are either in agreement with scripture or against it. Some without knowing it....some not wanting it and some total rejection .

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:33-35
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Ezekiel 37:25-27Ezekiel 28:6-8
---Trav on 5/6/09


Moderator...somewhere your question was lost in this conversation.
If you remember that we do not war against flesh and blood, I would say Obama is correct though I would be generous in ever suggesting the President had spiritual warfare in mind. His recent decision not to participate in the National Day of Prayer but will pray alone as he does everyday suggest his God is not one worthy to be praised in and out of season. Totally non-sensical.
Anyway, Daniel 10 has a frightning and blunt narrative as to just who is running that part of the world (i.e. Prince of Persia).
Read it and remember.
Thanks Trav and Donna66 for their compelling entries.
---larry on 5/6/09


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WArwick ... I think Trav is misreading what you said, but perhaps you were not quite clear enough.

I THINK you meant that you hate some of the actions of those who follow the Koran.

But it came across that you hate everything that they do.

I don,t think you meant that.
---alan8566_of_UK on 5/6/09


ANKARA, Turkey Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam."
-------------------------------------------
Would you rather he declares war on Islam? Islam is a religion/ideology. We can only go to war with a nation or group of people. It would be an oxymoron to say we are at war with Islam. That would mean the US would be "endorsing" a competing religion, and constitution forbids endorsing any one particular religion over another.
---obewan on 5/6/09


Hmm, it looks like this conversation got way off topic. We are to demonstrate love and kindness first to our Christian brethren so that IF someone happened to stumble upon conversations such as these, they would want to be Christian and they can see the love of Christ. However, the way you all argue with each other sets a very bad example for anyone approaching this blog (everywhere on this blogsite).

So, as for Muslims, Jesus commanded us (Christans) to be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves. And, of course, love your enemy. So Obama, I believe, is trying to make peace. Yes, Islam is a dangerous religion - I know it very well - but we must, MUST strive for peace and love with our "neighbor."
---maria2331 on 5/6/09


Therefore to say 'I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT HATE WHAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW JESUS DO' is an oxymoron-contradiction in terms.
---Warwick on 5/5/09

Andy does not need me to defend....but, I understood him perfectly in context of conversation. He said what scripture says in using his terms.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: ....
Romans 11:27-29
The remainder does not apply.
Andy might have said those who "claim" to follow do.
We all know you knew what he meant anyway. But, taking an opportunity again to make someone feel small so you can feel expanded.
---Trav on 5/6/09


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Andy you said I hate Muslim's and that without any reason. And have not found it necessary to apologize for such slander!

In following Jesus, we may have the gifts of the Spirit such as Love, Joy, Peace, Self-control, Patience and Kindness. Attributes those who follow Jesus will exhibit. We fail on occasions, being falible, but you cannot blame Jesus or the Bible for our failures which are in contradiction to Scripture.

Therefore to say 'I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT HATE WHAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW JESUS DO' is an oxymoron-contradiction in terms.

Those who follow Allah's commands will be murderous, as they are commanded to be so, threatened with hell-fire if they do not-Surah 9:81 Ali translation.
---Warwick on 5/5/09


Andy accuses me of hating Muslims, which is a lie.

Now Trav seems to be saying I should hate them! Which is also not the Biblical truth. We are told to be children of Love,
---Warwick on 5/1/09

Your a love child example. It's obvious you love the Muslims warwick. Probably to a fault.

The Word "Enemy" does not have to include hate. I don't hate them, or you. Even though you both are enemies of truth. They are not brothers in Christ. For over 2,000 years they testify to Ishmael side of Abraham. We believe another. You snuggle up to them in fear of them. I don't.
Luke 19:26-28
27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
---Trav on 5/4/09


Warwick, your answerr. I do not hate Mulsims but hate what those who follow the Koran do. warwicks last blog.
let me change it alittle bit and then ask wether or not it could mislead someone.
I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT HATE WHAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE BIBLE DO.
What is a muslim, what is a Christian. let me put it even worse.
I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT HATE WHAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW JESUS DO.
You probably expressed yourself totally wrongly. that i can accept. nevertheless saying something wronglyand then being unwilling that you said it the wrong way is true error, i have read many of your blogs warwick and you really understand a lot, God blessed you. still every traditional muslim knows that he really is'nt.
---Andy on 5/4/09


Warwick /Andy:-....God through His angel made a pledge with her. The people of Islam are as much as divided as those of christianity.
---MIC on 4/29/09

More divided as per below. If someone has doubts about scripture....turn on the T.V.

11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12And he will be a wild man, his hand will be AGAINST EVERY MAN, and EVERY MAN'S hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Note: This last verse note that the difference in dwelling mark/sign. Isaac's offspring when obeying GOD will inhabit/control many lands of blessing.
---Trav on 5/2/09


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Now this is a joke,

Andy accuses me of hating Muslims, which is a lie.

Now Trav seems to be saying I should hate them! Which is also not the Biblical truth. We are told to be children of Love, not to murder but to help our enemies. As Jesus said Matt. 5:43 'Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.'
---Warwick on 5/1/09


Andy, God loves the sinner,hates the sin.

As I said Muslims (people) are Islam's ( the military/religious/political system's) victims!

Those who commit acts of terrorism, cut off hands, or stone people for 'crimes' are convinced they are serving God. God loves them but hates what they do.

I am convinced they are unwittingly serving Satan. Therefore they are not to be hated, but we must be revolted by what they do.

The vast majority of Muslims do not commit such attrocities as they do not follow all that the Koran says. Nonetheless they are living in darkness.

You claim, offensively, that I hate them. Please show me where I have expressed hate towards Muslim people or be Christian enough to apologize.
---Warwick on 5/1/09


See 1 John 3:15 'anyone who hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life.'
---Warwick on 4/29/09
Key word "brother".
adelphos
ad-el-fos'
From G1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb), a brother (literally or figuratively)

I have no brothers who are muslim. Or regard for those who plow "yoked" with/by them.

And he increased his people greatly, and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psalm 105:23-25 (And we are).

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
---Trav on 5/1/09


Mima: The U.S. isn't a Christian nation. It's a nation, like others around the world, that have remnant Christian citizens.
---Leon on 4/7/09

Ha, makes me puke. This nation blessed in every aspect above all other Nations. Found as a covenant blessing in Scripture. Because it was/is Christian. This nations,new generations are listening to the error of your logic and paying a price.
Because it is Christian, the world has been blessed in every worldly aspect. Found in Scripture.
Because it is Christian.....whe we finally realize what it means....our hearts desires will be answered.
The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will enquire, enquire ye: return, come.
Isaiah 21:11-13
---Trav on 5/1/09


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Mic is right, Satan is the enemy, behind every idea 'that sets itself up against the knowledge of God' 2 Co. 10:4,5

It isn't a sect within Islam which commits attrocities but those who follow the dictates of the Koran.

See Surah 8:49 'Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back (from Islam) take (hold of) them and kill them whereever you find them.'

See also 47:4, 9:123, 8:39 & 67,

Friendship with Jews and Christians is forbidden. See Surah 5:51

See Surah 9:81 where Muslims who do not take part in this hatred and killing are threatened with hell-fire.

Sadly Muslim's are victims of this unHoly belief. They are not to be hated but loved and helped to see the light of Jesus.
---Warwick on 5/1/09


MarkV/Warwick this was the last repply given. Andy there is a saying -Jesus loves the sinner but hates the sin.
I do not hate Mulsims but hate what those who follow the Koran do. warwicks last blog.
those who follow the Coran are MUSLIMS.
i never said muslims do not commit horors in the name of Islam, i never said the coran cannot be used to encourage murder, as a whole I DID NEVER EQUATED Christianity and ISLAM. (still as a religious system its not that much better ex RCC and other christian cults, who MISUSE THE WORD)i only used the bible to make a point that seems not to be understood.THE GOAL DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
---Andy on 5/1/09


MIC right. it is salvation and Gods mercy that is lacking to Islam, Jesus said Noone can go the father but through me. fact is most religions want to improve humanity in their own way
Islam has his laws
as well as Judaism
Boudhism has his ways just as hinduism, and even paganisms are all a bunch of regulations and rules trying to improve mankind, and trying to restore the lost contact with God or (divinity, possitive energy etc. HOWEVER CHRIST ways is the only way where we can say that it is NOW GOD HIMSELF that has made the way, because man has failed. thats why JESUS IS THAT ONLY WAY.
---Andy on 5/1/09


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