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144,000 Literal Or Symbolic

Are the 144,000 people (12,000 from each tribe) mentioned in Revelations literal or symbolic and why?

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 ---Cesar on 4/19/09
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"Kingdom of heaven which is to live in the New Earth" Samuelbb7

Sure you know the difference between heaven and earth?
---scott on 10/17/14


"Tribe of Joseph" Steveng

The tribal arrangement in Israel was based on descent from the 12 sons of Jacob. (Ge 29:32-30:24, 35:16-18) These twelve family heads produced the twelve tribes of Israel. (Ge 49:1-28, Ac 7:8) However, Jacob blessed Joseph's two sons, Manasseh the older and Ephraim the younger, and said: Ephraim and Manasseh will become mine like [his actual sons] Reuben and Simeon. (Ge 48:5, 13-20)

When the various tribes received their land inheritance in the Promised Land (Jos 13-19), there was no tribe of Joseph. Instead, "the sons of Joseph," Manasseh and Ephraim, were counted as distinct tribes in Israel.

Still only 12 (not 13) since Levites did not receive a land inheritance.
---scott on 10/17/14


"144,000"- Marc

Happy to address this...again...but in the meantime (particularly in the context of this thread) is it not a little curious that Marc has never addressed his Christian Zionist views below?


1. Why do Christian Zionists preach this message found no where in God's word?:

"Trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." (Hagee, Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec, 6, pg. 1).

2. And just for fun let's try this one again...not holding our breaths for an answer:

"Poverty is a curse." (Hagee, Praise-A-Thon broadcast, TBN, 4 Nov 1992). Matt 23:23, Luke 2:24, Leviticus 12:6-8
---scott on 10/17/14


Cluny wrote: "And there's no such OT tribe that is named for Joseph."

Cluny, for a person who claims to know everything you fall shy of some things. You should be ashamed for there is a tribe of Joseph:

Numbers 13:11
Ezekiel 47:13
Revelation 7:8
---Steveng on 10/16/14


Show me another number in the bible that is symbolic.
---Steveng on 10/16/14




According to JWs the 144,000 are the only ones born again and they are all dying.

But in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven which is to live in the New Earth you have to be Born again.

So no JW's will get to live on the New Earth.

Thankfully when a person accepts JESUS as their LORD and Savior. The HOLY SPIRIT causes all who wish to be Born again. Just like JESUS says.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/16/14


For the Watchtower it's an easy answered question: It's literal in part,symbolic in the other. JWs believe 144,000 of their uber special ones (the ones that are much, much, much, much more righteous than Scott or David) are going to heaven. Of course, there's that wee little problem that the 144,000 are Jews.

Maybe, just maybe, the Watchtower's uber-special class are all Jews. Who would ever think?!
---Marc on 10/16/14


There are many portions of Revelation that are symbolic. There is not reason to believe the 144,000 is not symbolic.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/16/14


Surely God has a reason.

The Lord has a reason to say tribe of Joseph in Rev.7 v 8. The Lord does what He does, because He Has the say so.
---Lawrence on 10/16/14


\And there's no such OT tribe that is named for Joseph./-Cluny on 10/15/14
Gen 49:22,28 Joseph [is] a fruitful bough... All these [are] the twelve tribes of Israel...
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
-Ephraim and Joseph are the same tribe, Ephraim being, not the firstborn, but the heir.
-What is odd is Levi and Manasseh are included, but Dan is excluded: Levi and Joseph being part of the original twelve tribes: Manasseh and Ephraim (2 portions to Joseph) minus Levi for the division of the land.
---micha9344 on 10/16/14




\\144,000 is actual literal, Jewish people.\\

Is the Apocolyptic silence in heaven thirty earth minutes?

Why or why not?

And there's no such OT tribe that is named for Joseph.

Or did you know that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/15/14


144,000 is actual literal, Jewish people.
The Acts 2 v 38 salvation came unto the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost. A number of Jewish people rejected it. A number of Jewish people received it. Then came to us gentiles. The Acts salvation door will be closed to the gentiles when the catching away takes place. Then God will return to His First chosen people, 144,000. 12 tribes, 12,000 peoples in each tribe.
---Lawrence on 10/15/14


Bobby3, Gen.6.7."I will destroy both man and beast" which He did in the ensuing flood. It did not destroy our planet!!"
---1st_cliff on 5/8/09


Cliff: "Sin has not corrupted the flora and fauna..."

Sorry I haven't been able to get back to you on this one until now.

For your consideration:

Gen3:14- "Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field..." Seems to imply that the other creatures have been cursed, too (just the serpent more than the others). Probably in that they (like humans) eventually die.

Gen3:18- "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee..." Weeds!

Gen6:7- "...I will destroy...both man, and beast...for it repenteth me that I have made them." Why destroy everything if only man was corrupt?
---Bobby3 on 5/6/09


Are the 144,000 people (12,000 from each tribe) mentioned in Revelations literal or symbolic and why?


Cesar, this is literal.

Why would anyone believe the 12 tribes are symbolic.

If you read Genesis 49 you will see the prophecy Jacob gives over each one of his LITERAL sons concerning the LITERAL LAST DAYS. Those sealed ..the 144,000 are exactly for the LAST DAYS.
---kathr4453 on 5/1/09


Bobby3, *sin has corrupted it all* *the whole creation groaneth*
Sin has not corrupted the flora and fauna ,rivers,streams,clouds ans blue sky!

The "creation thar groaneth and travaileth" are the "human creation"

Simply put, it's the "people" who are corrupted and sinful,but you know what?? they are a renewable resourse.
God made this planet for people to live on it! Psl.115.16 and Isa.45.18 not some place in the sky!
---1st_cliff on 4/30/09


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DDMjr: You say you're not boasting ,then go ahead and brag????
Have you looked in the mirror lately? are you sprouting wings????

The bible talks about a fellow who prayed on the temple steps,so everyone could see him!
---1st_cliff on 4/27/09

WERE on computors, trying to relate things to one another, it's not as if I'm standing in front of you able to explain things or for YOU to SEE for YOUR self...

Somethings have to be said, because of the distance between us and this "TYPE" of forum.

Your so eagar to jump upon those who CLAIM POWER IN HIS NAME!
Only the Godless do that!
---YLBD on 4/29/09


Cliff: "God created this excellent home for mankind..."

Yes, Earth is definitely one of my favorite planets. I'm not arguing that God didn't do a good job creating the universe (Genesis 1:31). What I am saying is that sin has corrupted it all, and that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22), which makes necessary a renewal. This is not to say He will obliterate the entire universe and start over again from scratch. Rather, just as the Christian is a "new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17), the heavens and the earth will be renewed in the same sense.
---Bobby3 on 4/29/09


Bobby3, God created this excellent home for mankind,Right distance from the sun,23 1/2 degree angle, right spin, renewable eco system that can sustain billions etc...
To destroy it for a few bad apples is not practical!

The planet is not ruined,just needs a little TLC from the creator and it will be perfect!

Truthfully, without satan's influence in this world,sickness, sorrow or death would you want to live anywhere else???
---1st_cliff on 4/28/09


Cliff: "Taking it literal would mean God was 'impractical!'"

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you disagreeing with me?

"If you had bad tennants would you burn the house down or throw the bums out, and re-decorate????"

I might have to if the house was completely ruined by what the tenants did to it.
---Bobby3 on 4/28/09


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Alan,
There are so many more scriptures along the line of those I posted.

I find it interesting the attitude that Paul took.

2 Corinthians 12:6, "For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool, for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."
---Bruce5656 on 4/27/09


1 Corinthians 13:2, "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

And the test of Charity?
1 Corinthians 13:4, "Charity suffereth long, and is kind, charity envieth not, charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,"
---Bruce5656 on 4/27/09


Bruce ... and there is also something in the Good Book about the first being last & the last being first!
---alan8566_of_UK on 4/27/09


DDMjr: You say you're not boasting ,then go ahead and brag????
Have you looked in the mirror lately? are you sprouting wings????

The bible talks about a fellow who prayed on the temple steps,so everyone could see him!
---1st_cliff on 4/27/09


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I'm not boasting of my authority, But when it's ?'ed, I'll stand up quiker than David did against that giant....

God exalts & lowers man, and those of you who have been exalted by him "Should" start acting like it, and those of you who have been lowered NEED to Stand up!
You stand up, By humbling yourself to HIM, NOT MAN!

I'AM above(exalted) many and I'M farther along in this race than most people,
and I'M almost finished.

I'M humbled before God, NOT ANY MAN!
YLBD
Thank You Father for the Courage & Boldness you have giving me, so that I may stand strong when the winds of man blows.
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/27/09


Why God chose that number, I have no clue. Only he knows.
And don't forget the multituded mentioned after the numbers of each tribe.
---Steveng on 4/23/09
7:4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000, etc, etc.
12x12ooo =144,000.

12 apostles,fuits,gates etc,etc, 12 mentioned 164 times K.J.
The hand of YAH is on this number.
---Trav on 4/27/09


Bruce B, the Bible is a spiritual book, a historical book, and a literary book. It tells us about Jesus and about God and the Holy Spirit, as well as spiritual truths like only three things that last are Faith Hope and Love and the greatest of these is Love. So, if it is about Jesus, it is also about many other things too. You are completely convinced that faith in Jesus is the way you are going to be saved. But even demons believe in Jesus and are on their way to hell. According to the Bible, those who fulfill the law will be saved, and what is that law? Isn't it to love God and to love your neighbour?
---frances008 on 4/26/09


Duane,
"...I have much more Authority then you do, and much more is required of me then you,"

Psm 25:9, "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."

Prov 11:2, "When pride cometh, then cometh shame."

27:2, "Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth..."

Mat 23:12, "And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased..."

Paul's example: 2 Cor 12:6, "For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool...lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me"
---Bruce5656 on 4/26/09


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Y'all, I think I have said all I want to say on this topic. If you want to pursue it further, I have e-mail here at john6463.
---JohnnyB on 4/25/09


Beware of people like Steveng posting their lies. Nothing that they say is true. In fact, I would recommend not reading any of Steveng's posts as he dabbles in occult sciences and parapsychology.

Please check out everything he says with the Bible and you will find out that he is totally wrong and leading you towards the wrong sources if you want the truth.
---frances008 on 4/25/09


"I beg to differ, I have much more Authority then you do, and much more is required of me then you"

That is such a powerful testimony!!
---alan8566_of_UK on 4/25/09


Bobby3-4/23, Probably the only scripture in Revelation that is "literal"
Except for the New heavens and New earth-Kicking satan and his demons out of heaven creates a New (renewed) heaven.
Same with earth.Ridding earth of evil creates a New(renewed)earth!
Taking it literal would mean God was "impractical!"

If you had bad tennants would you burn the house down or thro the bums out, and re-decorate????
---1st_cliff on 4/25/09


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Steveng,

Don't forget: without Jesus... there wouldn't be a Kingdom of God.

Ain't it amazing, though, that in this place, you almost never hear about the Kingdom of God?
---BruceB on 4/25/09


StevenG, you are undoubtedly right! :-)
---JohnnyB on 4/24/09


StevenG, in Rev. 6:9 the saints are calling on God to avenge them. Jesus asks us to love our enemies and forgive them. If you don't think the Gospel is about forgiveness, among other things, and how God wants us to treat each other, then all I can say is, go ahead and treat people poorly and justify your own behavior and wait to see what God has to tell you on judgment day. God bless! I do wish you well. I really do.
---JohnnyB on 4/24/09


JohnnyB,

Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

One or two verses of over 400, and your take on the purpose of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" is the saint's vengeance?

Ge 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Isn't God both vengeful and forgiving? Didn't He let Noah off the hook?

Why do people think the God of the Old Testament is a different God from the God of the Gospels: or of Revelation?
---BruceB on 4/24/09


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JohnnyB: "DuaneDudley, hey, you have no more authority than I have, so don't get on your high horse and try to be the pope around here. All we have are our own opinions, yours and mine. God bless you!"

If Jesus were on these blogs, everyone would also consider him as only having an opinion. The same with all the other godly people - the apostles and prophets that live today.
---Steveng on 4/24/09


Bobby3, for me the book of Revelation is not one-tenth as important is the Gospels. It has led to endless futile speculation and more than enough bad blood between Christians. So I just don't pay Revelation much mind.
---JohnnyB on 4/24/09


JohnnyB" wrote: "...Revelation is about the saints getting revenge. The gospels are about the saints granting forgiveness..."

BruceB: "So, you're telling me I've been hoodwinked? And here I've always thought this Bible stuff... was about Jesus."

The gospels are not about "the saints granting forgiveness" nor about Jesus.

The gospel is about the Kingdom of God and how to get there. This is what Jesus and the apostles taught - nothing more, nothing less.

JohnnyB, the "saints getting revenge," that opinion is definately unchristian and ungodly.
---Steveng on 4/24/09


I don't know, but it does appear they were never found to be idolators ( a requirement) and they will all be men. The defiled by women does not mean they were literally virgins for marriage is not defilement.
Could this be the disciples multiplied by the number of tribes as the great commission on steriods?(no disrespect meant)
It also shows how power of Christ within the Jew.
On a wider observation it also appears the United States is insignificant to this important time, but who can be sure?
Great question.
---larry on 4/24/09


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BruceB, I don't know if you have been hoodwinked or not. But I do know it is not possible to be vengeful and forgiving simultaneously.
---JohnnyB on 4/24/09


JohnnyB: "I didn't say it wasn't true. I said at wasn't literal. It paints a beautiful picture, but it isn't a photograph, if you get my drift...."

I get you. Just needed a little clarification. Your initial statement regarding the 'non-literal-ness' of Revelation left me wondering if you were one of those who completely spiritualize the book, dismissing any correlation the symbolism might have to reality. Sometimes, people equate 'non-literal' with 'non-true', which I now know is not what you were getting at. Thanks for the help.
---Bobby3 on 4/24/09


Bobby3, I didn't say it wasn't true. I said at wasn't literal. It paints a beautiful picture, but it isn't a photograph, if you get my drift....
---JohnnyB on 4/24/09


The space station is only 270 miles high!
Hello????
---1st_cliff on 4/23/09

How typical of MAN to place limits on God,
However the limit is in your inability to understand that "He(GOD)has NO LIMITS!

Actually it's sad that you have limited your
understanding of HIS words, The worst of which, YOU teach others to believe a lie..

John measured it(New Jerusalem)and wrote it down as God told him to(He wrote it, I BELIEVE/FAITH IN IT).

You, of all people should know better than to mess with the WORDS of that book(Rev.)and the punishment for doing so...
YLBD
What do YOU think he's been doing ALL this time?
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/24/09


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JohnnyB wrote: "...Revelation is about the saints getting revenge. The gospels are about the saints granting forgiveness..."

So, you're telling me I've been hoodwinked? And here I've always thought this Bible stuff... was about Jesus.
---BruceB on 4/24/09


To fail to see that the 144,000 figure given in the Bible is exact is to find oneself floundering in the sea of symbolism, from which there is no certain shoreline to be gained.
---mima on 4/24/09


I beg to differ, I have much more Authority then you do, and much more is required of me then you, Do you think we are ALL on the same playing field(?) when it comes to God and his plans for indivduals, God has put me where i'm at, he exalts & lowers man.

Jesus, said that John T Baptist was the greatest among man born unto man, but in Heaven he was the Least among them.

We ALL don't have the same knowledge of him or his words.

Don't get hooked on, your just as good as any other Brother/Sister OR you'll turn out like JUDAS & CAIN, strive to plz God and you'll do well.
YLBD
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/24/09


Johnny/Cliff: Is this not to be a literal reality?

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
---Bobby3 on 4/24/09


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DuaneDudley, hey, you have no more authority than I have, so don't get on your high horse and try to be the pope around here. All we have are our own opinions, yours and mine. God bless you!
---JohnnyB on 4/23/09


Jesus chose the twelve apostles, no more, no less. The 144,000 is the cream of the crop of God's favorite people. Why God chose that number, I have no clue. Only he knows. You can speculate all you want, but will not come to the truth until after.

Besides, how can you interpret the number 144,000 as symbolic?

And don't forget the multituded mentioned after the numbers of each tribe.
---Steveng on 4/23/09


DDM, I can't believe someone as intelligent as you think that New Jerusalem is a literal city!!!
1500 miles wide (square)
1500 miles high????
The space station is only 270 miles high!
Hello????
---1st_cliff on 4/23/09


Bobby3, that's easy. Revelation is about the saints getting revenge. The gospels are about the saints granting forgiveness. And cities hundreds of miles across don't drop from heaven. That is figurative. All the best to you!
---JohnnyB on 4/22/09

How dare you put a limit on Gods resolve and Power, There is a City coming, The New Jerusalem, The one the lord promised his D's that he was going to go and build.

You err and a portion will be taken from you, keep it up and your name will be removed from the Book of Life...

Your messing with a Book that you ought not, or is that just a symbolic jesture too?
YLBD
PS. JUSTICE IS COMING,NOT REVENGE!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/23/09


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Bobby3, that's easy. Revelation is about the saints getting revenge. The gospels are about the saints granting forgiveness. And cities hundreds of miles across don't drop from heaven. That is figurative. All the best to you!
---JohnnyB on 4/22/09


The figure 144,000 is SYMBOLIC. A lot more people than that have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior. Does this mean that only 144,000 get into heaven and the rest go to hell? No.

Similarly, when Jesus said to "forgive" SEVENTY times SEVEN. He meant "as many times as you need to". Not 490 and then do whatever comes next.

144,000 is the number that Jehovah Witnesses use whenever they ask me to come and join their kingdom. I can't. I'm in God's kingdom instead.
---Augie on 4/22/09


Frances: "Anyone who might be comparing the Holy Bible to Star Trek should be on your watch list."

I agree.

Leslie: "The Rapture therefore takes place Before, During, and After the Tribulation. This is Biblical."

This isn't even a consensus that the rapture is biblical, much less the rapture times three. Please provide Scripture to support this view. Thanks.

JohnnyB: "Nothing in the book of Revelation is literal."

Nothing? New heaven/earth not literal?

"And it absolutely contradicts the teaching of Jesus and Paul to love and forgive our enemies."

How so?

Regarding the original question, my vote is the number 144,000 is used symbolically.
---Bobby3 on 4/22/09


Anyone who might be comparing the Holy Bible to Star Trek should be on your watch list. Brainwashers abound these days.
---frances008 on 4/21/09


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Do not worry about what is to come. Let tomorrow take care of itself. Just do the two commandments that Jesus spoke of. Also do an online KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," and "encourag." Do these and you don't have to worry at all.

As for Revelation being symbolic: If you travelled to the year 4009 and wrote what you saw, the people in the year 4009, reading what you saw, would also think you wrote in symbolism. John wrote what he saw using the language he knew for that time period. Would the people in the year 4009 think that the Star Trek series were historical documentaries?
---Steveng on 4/21/09


Duane Dudley Martin~ You may very well be right. The book of Revelations is mysterious in many ways. Please come help us out on the Eternal Security/Salvation/OSAS/'Seal' blogs. We need your insights again for this most important topic. Thanks and God bless.
---Anne on 4/21/09


The 144,000 are Jew's in Israel ....

You should know the Complete word of God before messing with the words of this paticular book(Rev), YOU can lose what you've been given. so be careful, ok?
YLBD
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/21/09

Duane....Rev lists the DIFFERENT tribes of Israel. Jews....Judah....does not NOR EVER WILL equal all NATIONS OF Israel.
Have you never wondered...for a moment where all these other nations are??
Aware, what we've been taught in our lives....I understand. But, folks who have been in the scriptures for years should really question some doctrinal dead ends.

U Warn people then you get it wrong. The warning holds true for all GODs word.
---Trav on 4/21/09


Since when does marrying a woman "defile" you?? Marriage is God ordained!
The very 1st chapter says "these are the things that must "soon" take place!
2,000 years is not "soon" by the stretch of any one's imagination.
If he meant 100's of years he didn't need to add "soon". HE obviously thought it would be imminent!
---1st_cliff on 4/21/09


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On a somewhat parallel subject, were there EXACTLY 5000 fed?

And with regards to the 144,000 ... are there no women to be gathered?

Symbolic, surely, but then I am not a theologian!
---alan8566_of_UK on 4/21/09


Duane,
" that havn't defiled themselves with women(virgins)will be sealed "

Where do you get that idea?
---Bruce5656 on 4/21/09


144,000 is sybolic.
---Anne on 4/20/09
What(?), it is "literal" that 12,000(chosen by God) "JEWS" of the 12 tribes(God knows how to divide & add), that havn't defiled themselves with women(virgins)will be sealed with the seal of God on their foreheads by an Angel.
The 144,000 are Jew's in Israel who will be carried away(flee)into the desert & protected from the AC & FP's wrath until the lord returns for his 1000 yr reign.

You should know the Complete word of God before messing with the words of this paticular book(Rev), YOU can lose what you've been given. so be careful, ok?
YLBD
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/21/09


There is enough symbolism in the Bible for me to go either way. I won't know until after the fact.

Does the command to forgive 7 x 70 mean literally 490 times then? How many people go that far? What about offense 491 then? The sampe principle applies!
---obewan on 4/21/09


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Nothing in the book of Revelation is literal. And it absolutely contradicts the teaching of Jesus and Paul to love and forgive our enemies.
---JohnnyB on 4/20/09

Explain, I'm curious what you're seeing.

While much/most is symbolic it is also verifed by the rest of scriture. Some is literal and seen daily.
---Trav on 4/21/09


Revelation does not contradict anything God has said or done in the Bible, but is perfectly in keeping with it. Symbolic or literal, it is all going to happen whether we like it or not. The Bible is a special library of books carefully chosen through the ages and there were strict people judging what should be considered as Holy Spirit inspired and what should not. In fact I think that there are some books that were left out that have a lot to teach us. What we are left with is the bare minimum. I'm sorry to hear that parts of the Bible are not acceptable to some Christians.
---frances008 on 4/21/09


144,000 is sybolic.
---Anne on 4/20/09


Nothing in the book of Revelation is literal. And it absolutely contradicts the teaching of Jesus and Paul to love and forgive our enemies.
---JohnnyB on 4/20/09


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I hope it's symbolic or means something else than what I think it means, because if it means what I think it means, than only 144,000 jews are going to Heaven and the rest of us are going to Hell?
---amand6348 on 4/20/09
You are not reading....the rest of the story dear.
Revelation 7:5 thru 8
Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
it tells who these 144m are. Judah is only one twelveth. Bet your Church told you all Jews are Israel. Admit it. Now read scpripture for yourself like your soul depended on it. Believe scripture not opinion/doctrines. Take Lords hand two scriptures and run most wolves outta the forest...look for Sheep you'll know em....ask the only Teacher to show/open the way.....
---Trav on 4/20/09


"WHOA"!!! Leslie...

Three Raptures? Now, who says ya can't learn something new around here?!
---BruceB on 4/20/09


I hope it's symbolic or means something else than what I think it means, because if it means what I think it means, than only 144,000 jews are going to Heaven and the rest of us are going to Hell?
---amand6348 on 4/20/09


12 x 12,000. The number may be actual.

Twelve, the number been mentioned in Scriptures 164 times in K.J.
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Looks like James knew a few of them.....hmm
John evidently seen a visual of them ...
Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Perhaps some might do well to know the marks of all 12....they are evidently all around us if they are present at the end.
---Trav on 4/20/09


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While the Bible is full of symbolisms, ALL the symbolisms are meant to show reality. The 144,000 are the Jews that accecpt Christ as Lord during the Tribulation, and are then raptured up during the Tribulation. Don't mistake this for Mid-Trib theory, it is NOT. The Believers that have accepted Christ already will be raptured up BEFORE the Tribulation. Then the 144,000 will be raptured up DURING the Tribulation. Then all the maryders for Christ will be raptured up AFTER the Tribulation. The Rapture therefore takes place Before, During, and After the Tribulation. This is Biblical.
---Leslie on 4/20/09


Mima,

If the number is to be taken litteraly, then it would be perhaps the strongest for case of predestination in scripture.

That would mean that God got out his checklist and chose 12,000 - not 11,999 or 12,001 - of each tribe and they alone would be saved. If you were 12,001 on the list, well tough luck for you.
---Bruce5656 on 4/20/09


MIMA: So if this is a literal number then what are the implications? I don't disagree with you, I'm just trying to draw the implications of this number being taken literally.
---TIMOTHY on 4/20/09


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