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Which Jesus Is Correct

The Christians, Mormons, Muslims, etc. say that they respect Jesus, but their description(s) of him are different, one to the other. Which Jesus is the correct Jesus, and why?

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 ---Glenn on 5/5/09
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David, John1:1 1:14 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The flesh is Jesus. The beginning of john spells its it out for, And the bible never contradicts itself, But people do misread the scriptures and add to them and take things away from them which is forbidden
---batieste on 6/1/09

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
---Michael on 6/1/09

Re: "not the Alpha and the Omega".

Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 1:17,18 Verifies and documents that Jesus is indeed the speaker "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen, and have the keys of hell and of death."

Jesus is the fulness (pleroma-that which is (has been) filled, as container) of 'the' Godhead (theotes-Divinity, the state of being God) bodily, and the only way 'the Alpha and the Omega' will ever be perceived corporally.
(Definitions) from the Stong's Concordence.
For further documentation see Rev.22:12,13>Isa.40:10>Mat.16:27
---Josef on 6/1/09

David, both Christ and the Father have the same title. They both speak as being the Alpha and the Omega. They say it because the words come from the same God. Who reveals Himself as, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Now you have to know by the context who is been mentioned. While Jesus was incarnated on earth He was limited as far as a human. He was like us. Yet He came from God. And so long as you live, you will forever continue to insist there is two gods or even three. But we as Christains believe in One God. Where through time revealed Himself in three persons. There was nothing wrong with Rev. 1:7, and nothing wrong with 21:7, when you read the context.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/09

In my experience, when a person who thinks himself to be intelligent finds a concept about God inconsistent with the power of his reason, he immediately concludes that either the Bible or the interpretation of the Bible is at fault. I would like to suggest that when difficulty arises about the nature of God, His Words or His action, that we take the logical position of simply not knowing. For it is more reasonable that we accept that the scope of our knowledge is so narrow, that it is more likely that we do not undrstand than oherwise.
---Janze on 5/31/09

Jesus is not the 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

At Rev.21:6, the one applying the title to himself says at 21:7, 'I shall be his God, and he will be my son'. Since Jesus speaks of himself as a 'brother' of these conquerors (or 'over-comers'), it is the Father of Jesus who is referring to himself as 'the Alpha and the Omega'. As Jesus refers to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as 'brothers' not his 'sons', the speaker must be Jesus' Father, Jehovah. If Jesus is 'the Alpha and the Omega', then the Son is also Father to his brothers which is nonsense and highlights the 'mystery' and complete confusion that is the Hellenic 'trinity'.
---David8318 on 5/31/09

Mark V makes a big mistake in his interpretation of Rev.1:7, 8. Both Jehovah and Jesus are coming to execute Judgment.

John says at Rev.1:2, that he is recording 'the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ'. So we can expect expressions from both Almighty God and Jesus Christ.

Mark V claims Rev.1:7 states: "the Lord was coming with the "clouds"...". Which translation is MarkV using here? Mark V tries to twist the scriptural thought here so his view matches the next verse. Verse 7 does not specifically state that which Mark V claims it states.

'Jesus' (1:5) comes with the 'clouds... Yes, Amen' (1:7). 'The Almighty' (NAB,Kj) is the 'the Alpha and the Omega' (1:8).
---David8318 on 5/31/09

David, you make a big mistake in interpreting the passages in Rev. 1:7-8. You say the two are not connected so that Jesus is not the Alpha and the Omega. But what you fail to understand is that John had just finished explaining that "the Lord was coming with the "clouds" and every eye would see Him" and he finished with "Amen."
The next statement is a quote from him led by the Spirit in decribing that which is coming, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End." Says the Lord who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Did you hear that? "who is to come" that is Christ. And who said it? Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/31/09

The Israelites did not worship a trinity. Jesus therefore did not believe in a trinity and was/is not a trinitarian. You will not find in any scripture the word 'trinity' passing Christ's lips. On this alone, a trinitarian cannot be a follower of Christ, but is a follower of the men who invented the Hellenic mythological deity out of Babylonian and Egyptian triune false gods.

If trinity were a CENTRAL teaching, then it must be found in scripture, very much like 'the Kingdom', 'the resurrection', or the 'New Jerusalem', which are important Biblical teachings. Thankfully, 'trinity' is not a Scriptural term and is not a Biblical teaching.
---David8318 on 5/31/09

Jesus is not the 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

Jesus is referred to at Rev.1:7 as coming with the clouds. Just because 1:7 refers to Jesus, doesn't mean 1:8 refers to Jesus as well. 1:7 ends with 'Yes, Amen', an appropriate conclusion of thought. 1:8 then introduces the reader to 'the Almighty' (New American Bible), as 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

To arrive at the conclusion from these verses that Jesus is the 'Almighty God', one would need to have preconceived trinity views. The word 'trinity' is not mentioned neither is the holy spirit given the title 'the Alpha and the Omega'.
---David8318 on 5/31/09

John 1 differs radically from philosophic usage. For the Greeks, Logos was essentially reason, for John, essentially word. Language common to Philo's and the NT has led many to see John as Philo's debtor. But one refers naturally to Philo's Logos as "It," to John's as "He." Philo came no nearer than Plato to a Logos who might be incarnate, and he does not identify Logos and Messiah. John's Logos is not only God's agent in creation, He is God, and becomes incarnate, revealing, and redeeming.
A F Walls
---Michael on 5/30/09

Bobby3, Re: "...equal to YHWH in nature" (1)

With respect, language like "equal in nature" and "fully man and fully God" is not found in God's inspired word.

This is purely theological rhetoric that has developed in the face of numerous scriptural references that place the Son in a secondary position, relative to the Father. (And the obvious dilemma this presents from a trinitarian perspective.) Here necessity is truly the mother of invention.

For example Christ says plainly at John 14:28:

"The Father is greater than I."

(See also 1 Cor 8:5,6, 1 Pet 1:3, Matt 26:39, 20:20-23, Mark 13:32, John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:27, etc.)

---scott on 5/30/09

Bobby3, "equal in nature" (2)

At Nicea, as the doctrine was beginning* to take shape, it took an unscriptural term to say what God's word did not- "Homousios."

"The Fathers of the Council at Nice were at one time ready to accede to the request of some of the bishops and use only scriptural expressions in their definitions. But, after several attempts, they found that all these were capable of being explained away...After a series of attempts of this sort it was found that something clearer and more unequivocal must be adopted...accordingly the word homousios was adopted."
Henry Percival, Seven Ecumenical Councils, Vol XIV

* The HS was included 56 years after Nicea 325.
---scott on 5/30/09

"Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist's inspired expression which you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world." 1 John 4:2,3.

One is antichrist who denies that Jesus Christ came 'in the flesh'. The Word BECAME flesh, not clothed with, not an incarnation. Jesus' time on earth is spoken of as "the days of his flesh". (Heb.5:7)
---David8318 on 5/30/09

Bobby3, No ,I was asking! You're saying he died and was still alive?? Contradictory!
While raking my yard I noticed a snake skin,(they shed their skins and slither away)
A ha, this is what the fundamentalist calls "death" They shed their body and go off to who knows where???
So Jesus dropping his body like a snake skin give us salvation...Wow you need to rethink "DEATH"
What was resurrected? Just the beaten up body? Is that what Christianity is all about??
---1st_cliff on 5/29/09

Scott, you were right this time. 1 John 5:7 is shrouded in controversy about it's translation. I did not know this. I will not use this verse to support the view that Jesus is God. I continue to look forward to many more discussions with you on this topic, although I prefer not seeing all the name calling on both sides of this discussion. I seek to have the truth revealed and any lacking will be blessed.
---Michael on 5/29/09

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'First and Last' being applied to YHWH and Jesus is no problem for non-believers of the Hellenic trinity deity. When 'First and Last' is mentioned with reference to Jesus at Rev.1:17, it is with definite limitations, relative to just the matter of Christ Jesus' death and resurrection, as 1:18 shows. Christ was the first one raised in the first resurrection, and the last one that will be raised directly by Jehovah God. When 'First and Last' is again applied to Christ Jesus, at Revelation 2:8, again it is with respect to death and resurrection.

But when it speaks of Jehovah at Isaiah 44:6 no limitation is set on the meaning. Almighty God YHWH cannot die.

Nowhere is HS mentioned. Alone, they do not teach Hellenic 'trinity'.
---David8318 on 5/29/09

"...So, if Jesus didn't actually 'DIE' then we [?] don't have salvation!" Cliff on 5/28

The Cliffs, of the world, want to disprove the Bible or at least hope to create so much confusion the vast majority of huemanity will doubt it's Divine inspiration & "there you have it," -- the end of Christianity!

Satan's plan is to cast doubt upon & thereby destroy our faith in God's word...All true Christians must constantly stand fully clothed in God's armour to resist the devil, his earthly children & demon efforts. (Eph. 6:10-18)
---Leon on 5/29/09

Cliff: "So you're saying 'immortal' doesn't necessarily mean immortal?"

Upon incarnation, He took on a human nature that was in addition to and apart from His divine nature. As Warwick indicated in his post, Jesus was BOTH fully God and fully man. Therefore, it is NOT a contradiction to say that Jesus died, yet He is immortal because He is God. This is because, while His human flesh expired on the cross, His divine nature did not perish. In other words, Jesus as 'man' did die (and was resurrected on the third day), but Jesus as 'God' did not (and could not) die.
---Bobby3 on 5/29/09

Trav: Should you one day have a better command of the English language, we'll then be able to talk. Other than your saying you disagree with me (which is absolutely okay) I'm not sure of what else you're really trying to say, i.e., your wording is confusing.

It's always good to quote Scripture. However, it's vitally important to do so in the proper context, under the right circumstances.

God bless. :)
---Leon on 5/29/09

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Careful citing 1 John 5:7, 8 as a trinity "proof" text.

The so called "Johannine comma" include words not found in the oldest biblical manuscripts.

One has to wonder, if the doctrine of the trinity is clearly established in God's word:

1. Why are additional, uninspired words necessary to say what the inspired text itself does not?

2. Why, knowing that these words were added at a much later date, do some translations continue to include them?
---scott on 5/29/09

I intentionally spell huemanity with an "e" to drive the point we huemans are one specie/race made up of individuals of many different hues (skin colors).
But, your spelling of Genesis (though recognizable) is just a twisted (potentially confusing) version of original word.
Trust me Cliff, I know what I'm talking about. :D
---Leon on 5/27/09

You drive the point home that you arrogant and prideful. Confusion of word must be yours.
Your new "hue"manity belongs where GOD has always had it. Being false.

For thou art an HOLY people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Deuteronomy 14:1-3<
---Trav on 5/28/09

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Notice how the three in heaven are one but the three in earth only agree in one...
interesting isn't it?..
---Michael on 5/28/09

By the way.. that was John the Apostle, 1st Century
---Michael on 5/28/09

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Warwick, Some fancy dancing there!
That Adam and Noah could write is an unwarranted assumption also:
Historians "know" when writing was invented from early fragments, like cuneiform on clay tablets!
Neanderthal man, Piltdown man is old hat".

So you're saying "immortal" doesn't necessarily mean immortal?
So if Jesus didn't actually "DIE" then we don't have salvation!
---1st_cliff on 5/28/09

scott: "Are we then not all polytheists...?"

We would be if we were to believe in the existence another being who is equal to YHWH in nature but who is not YHWH. In other words, if I thought Moses or an angel or anything else referred to as 'god' had in common with YHWH the divine attributes that define 'the Almighty' (omnipresence, omnipotence, etc.), then that would be polytheism. What I am trying to say is that if someone does not identify Jesus with YHWH and calls Him 'a' god (like Cliff is doing), that's polytheism, unless 'a god' means that Jesus is something less than YHWH in nature (like an angel).
---Bobby3 on 5/28/09

1stCliff it is indeed a mystery how Jesus can be fully God and fully man. It is inconvenient truth (for many) that we are not able to break down the doors of the storehouse of the knowledge of God. No understanding, comes from the Holy Spirit to those who patiently seek to understand His word, and corresponding time on their knees asking that His mysteries be revealed.

We do not gain a womans love by assault, but by patience, kindness and love. Likewise God reveals Himself to those who love and serve Him.

Isn't it amazing that the alpha and the omega, our Creator, our great God and Saviour Jesus, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, tells us He did die that we may live. You don't have to like it, just accept it and be saved 1stCliff.
---Warwick on 5/28/09

Warrick, great work brother, and also Bobby 3. It is a shame that many use passages of Jesus and assume He was only human. That He died for our sins and so since He died, how could He be God? And also they say, since He was human, and God is Spirit, no one has seen Him. And so many other things they say. They don't read the message as a whole. They take one at a time. This way they can argue all they want. It is their intent from the beginning to preach Polytheism. Thank you guys for answering the way you do.
---Mark_V. on 5/28/09

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Thanks Moderator... :)
---Leon on 5/28/09

Awsome Warwick, now it's time for you to be persecuted because of your faith. Here it comes... God be with you!!
---Michael on 5/27/09

Warwick, Explain this away..YHVH is "immortal"1Tim.6.16.
You state "I was dead.." Jesus' words..Did he fake his death or lie?
Act.2.24 "God raised Him from the dead" he did not resurrect Himself according to this!

What we're witnessing here is Father and Son,working in concert . Not Jesus being his own Father or God being his own Son. Which is ludicrous!
Jesus is not a rival God but a devoted Son.
1cor.15.28 "When all this is done..the Son Himself will be made "subject TO HIM"..
Subject to himself??? Hello!
---1st_cliff on 5/27/09

Warwick: "Accept no substitutes!"

Right! Nice post.
---Bobby3 on 5/27/09

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1stCliff, JEPD, like the dodo, is dead!

They forgot to ask God!

That Adam and Noah could not write is an unwarranted assumption on your part.

Who knows when writing was 'invented', were these experts there- don't think so. Opinions of the past constantly change as new evidence contradicts old.

In 1960's textbooks they were confident Neanderthal Man was a missing link between ape and human kind. Now considered human.

The immortal who died?

Isaiah 44:6 Almighty God the first and the last, the only God. However in Rev. 1:17,18 Jesus is the first & the last I was dead and behold I am alive

Not a problem for the Bible believer, the Trinitarian, but for others a puzzle.
---Warwick on 5/27/09

Thank you Warwick, excellent.
---larry on 5/27/09

The apostle Paul warned of an apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

History confirms the warnings of Paul were well founded. The Encyclopdia Britannica (1976 edition) states: 'From the middle of the 2nd century AD, Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans.'

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge points out: 'Many of the early Christians, in turn, found peculiar attractions in the doctrines of Plato, and employed them as weapons for the defense and extension of Christianity, or cast the truths of Christianity in a Platonic mold.'
---David8318 on 5/27/09

Cliff: Now that I've gotten your attention :), I intentionally spell huemanity with an "e" to drive the point we huemans are one specie/race made up of individuals of many different hues (skin colors). You however, spelled Genesis "Genises", perhaps in haste or you didn't know any better. I really think it was a hasty typo. :) You know the saying, "haste makes waste."

I believe my modified version of "huemanity" (though not likely to appear in the dictionary any time soon) enhances the word. But, your spelling of Genesis (though recognizable) is just a twisted (potentially confusing) version of original word.

Trust me Cliff, I know what I'm talking about. :D
---Leon on 5/27/09

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Bobby3 Re "...leads to polytheism."

Not sure I follow..

Are we then not all polytheists by acknowledging the scriptural identification of certain men and angels as "Gods"? Moses was even referred to, not as "a God," but as "God."

The Jews and first century Christians understood the relative nature of this title.

So if this title doesn't necessarily refer to the Almighty Himself, then whatever your preferred rendering of John 1:1c (God, Divine, a god) doesn't automatically do so in reference to the "Logos."

Re "classification." What "classification" would you put Moses the angels and judges in regarding their identification as Gods?
---scott on 5/27/09

Warwick....i could not have said it any better. I totally agree.
---JIM on 5/27/09

Which Jesus is the correct Jesus?

Isaiah 44:6 YHWH says He is the Redeemer, the Lord Almighty.. 'I am the first and I am the last, apart from me there is no God.'

In Rev. 1:8 God Almighty repeats He is the first and the last.

However In Rev. 1:17,18 Jesus says He is the first and the last 'I was dead and behold I am alive..'

Only one Jesus fits the frame, our great God and Saviour (Titus 2:13), the Lord Almighty, the first and the last, the one who died and rose again, for you and me!

Praise God that our Jesus is 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords', not the lying deceiving blaspheming angel god of the cults.

When in trouble who you gonna call?

Accept no substitutes!
---Warwick on 5/27/09

The reason for the different descriptions of Jesus is thus: Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and therefore was allowed by Mormans to redefine Jesus. Muslims believe that their theological leaders are prophets and are also allowed to redefine scripture. Main stream Christianity does not acknowledge either as as having authority to define Jesus. Mormons and Muslims have altered the original texts. The original Koran is different than today's Koran.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
---Jo_Ann on 5/26/09

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Leon, Should we trust someone who can't even spell "humanity?"
---1st_cliff on 5/26/09

David I know you belong to the 'no answers group' but I live in hope.

Please have the integrity to answer:

David you try to show that Jesus is an angel. However He says he is God, in fact in Calling Himself the Alpha & the Omega (Rev. 22:13) He is calling Himself Almighty God.

What is He David? An angel who lies?
---Warwick on 5/26/09

In order to see Jesus, you need special 'light', spiritual healing, grace from God. Otherwise you are trying to understand Arabic when you learnt Japanese, if you can see what I mean.
---frances008 on 5/26/09

scott: "Consider the Jewish/historical..."

I appreciate the post. I understand that many might be unaware of the various titles and names associated with the God of our faith, and your words indeed were helpful in this regard.

The point I was attempting to make was that Cliff's denial of the Trinity leads to polytheism, for if Jesus was not God (YHWH) in the flesh, then John 1:1 forces him to say that He was 'a' god. My question was aimed at getting him to commit to a classification of the being that was incarnated as Jesus Christ.
---Bobby3 on 5/26/09

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David8318: "Obviously because like the 'first Adam', they were both CREATED..."

The passage you cite does not refer to either being created, and therefore does not support your argument. The conclusion you drew was not at all 'obvious' given the context of the passage.

The description of Christ being the 'last Adam' can be explained by Paul's words in Romans 5:12-17.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men...much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many...".

So, actually, the title 'last Adam' is meant to CONTRAST the two rather than indicate similarity.
---Bobby3 on 5/26/09

Marc evidently ignores what Christ's Apostles taught with regard to how YHWH transmitted the Mosaic Law Covenant.

Marc holds to the teachings of Platonizing early church fathers in his erroneous attempts to squeeze his Hellenic, Neo-Platonic teachings into scripture, rather than read what Christ's Apostles taught. If we took Exodus 24 on face value, then yes, let's all believe Moses did see 'God', and spoke to God. But let's not just take one scripture. Examine the whole Bible and other verses which relate, but which Marc finds uncomfortable.

According to the Apostle Paul, and the Christian disciple Stephen who died for what he believed, 'angels' were used to transmit the Law Covenant.

'No man hath seen God...' Jo.1:18.
---David8318 on 5/26/09

Moses was only on Mt Sinai once? (Marc 5/25/09)

Who said anything about Moses going up Si'nai only once?

Obviously, Marc does not believe what the Apostle Paul or what the Christian disciple Stephen believed- that angels were used to transmit YHWH's messages. Paul and Stephen got it all so very wrong shouts the Neo-Platonist Marc. Evidently, Marc is of a similar belief to others here who deny the inspired writings.

Interestingly, just before he died, Stephen had a vision of the so-called 'trinity'. What did Stephen see? A triune God with 3 heads? 3 individual God's or only 1 person?

Acts 7:56- 'Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God's right hand.'

Well there's a surprise!
---David8318 on 5/26/09

Warwick, JEP & D "gone out of fashion?" 1987?
What's in fashion now? that Adam could write?? writing was not invented for 1500 years after Adam!(alphabet type) circa 3000BCE before that was hieroglyphics,pictograph cuneiform on clay!

*Almighty God* the immortal that died??hmmm.
Time to throw more stones Leon!
---1st_cliff on 5/26/09

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"Seeing" God (2)

"They saw the God of Israel (Ex 24:10), that is, they had some glimpse of His glory, ...though they saw no manner of similitude, and his being no man hath seen nor can see, 1Ti 6:16. They saw the place where the God of Israel stood, something that came near a similitude, but was not, whatever they saw, it was certainly something of which no image nor picture could be made, and yet enough to satisfy them that God was with them... Nothing is described but that which was under his feet, for our conceptions of God are all below him..." Full Matthew Henry Commentary

Similitude= "Closely resembling another, counterpart, likeness, semblance, image..."

---scott on 5/26/09

"Seeing" God (3)

The context of the (entire) Bible indicates that Adam and Eve as well as Moses, Aaron and the 70 Elders did not actually see God.

Remember that Moses wrote Genesis as well as the accounts in Exodus and Deuteronomy. (At least IMHO). So by Moses own hand he tells us it is impossible for man to see God and live. De 4:15, Ex 33:18 and...

"For man shall not see me and live." Ex 33:20

Did he contradict himself when writing the various passages?

"No man hath seen God at any time." John 1:18
---scott on 5/26/09

"Seeing" God (1)

"That there was no visible form or representation of the divine nature, we have expressly intimated (De 4:15). But a symbol or emblem of His glory was distinctly, and at a distance, displayed before those chosen witnesses." Jamieson, Fausset Brown Commentary

De 4:15 mentioned above says "Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire."

---scott on 5/26/09

'YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels...' Acts 7:53

'For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm...' Heb.2:2

'and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator...' Gal.3:19

The Law was given by Jehovah to Moses through angels. Quite appropriate as 'angel' basically means 'messenger'. I agree that Jehovah could have used the pre-human Jesus as his messenger of the Mosaic Law covenant, that is perfectly acceptable. Jesus is a created being.

Notice now how Marc decides not to include Jesus in his last post. Of course if he does, he is calling Jesus an angel. Neo-Platonists can't do this. Marc's argument is flawed and useless.
---David8318 on 5/26/09

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Warwick: I agree 100+% with your comments 5/26. Adam was made a sinless, perfect (superior) man. When he sinned, huemanity immediately fell into a state of degeneration (devolved). The Bible clearly shows our hueman condition, "over time", became worse 'n' worse.

We 21st century people have advanced significantly in science & technology, i.e., medicines, implants & all sorts of physical enabling devices, etc. But -- many people are very much like the Star Trek Borgs due to an ever increasing appetite for data input, i.e., communication technologies, etc. Also like the assimulated Borg, untold numbers of people are spiritually dead & morally bankrupt drones programmed to do the will of the collective (the world).
---Leon on 5/26/09

1stCliff, the JEPD hypothesis has somewhat gone out of fashion.

more likely is it was written as family records, inspired by God, and written by named individuals. For example see Genesis 5:1 KJV 'This is the book of the generations of Adam. 6:9 'These are the generations of Noah.' etc.

There is every reason to believe the named individuals wrote the various sections. Moses later edited them adding his own explanatory editorial comments, etc.

Some may say Adam could not write, but opon what Biblical basis is this made? Evolutionary thinking has influenced many Christians causing them to see Adam as a primitive, rather than a man created with a perfect body and mind, most assuredly much more intelligent than we today.
---Warwick on 5/26/09

David you try to show that Jesus is an angel. However He says he is God, in fact in Calling Himself the Alpha & the Omega (Rev. 22:13) He is calling Himself Almighty God.

What is He David? An angel who lies?
---Warwick on 5/25/09


What, Moses was only on Mt Sinai once?

You are so zealous to make sure nothing interferes with your Watchtower theology you'll even believe something that's not even in the text. Where in Exodus 24 does it mention an Angel? Exodus 24, written by Moses, says, quote, "And they saw the God of Israel."

Re Eden, Adam and Eve HEARD the sound of YHWH WALKING. Only animals and humans can walk. And of course, Jesus can too.

Let's deal with the text as it is, eh?

And David, let's not play foot-loose-and-fancy-free with God's Word!
---Marc on 5/25/09

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Marc: Obviously, we shouldn't trust a dude who, among other things, can't even spell Genesis "accurately". :)

It's a waste of time trying to reason with ol 'Cliff. He really has no interest in Bible accuracy. Rather, he's hellbent on proving the Scripture is inaccurate. He would have us believe the words of some poor creature named Richard Friedman over the words of the Creator, Jesus (Jn. 5:46-47)

Like I said (5/23), Satan's plan is to cast doubt upon & thereby destroy our faith in God's word... All true Christians must constantly stand fully clothed in God's armour to resist the devil, his earthly children & demon efforts. (Eph. 6:10-18)
---Leon on 5/25/09

Bobby3 re. "...a being that is a god but less than God? (2)

With that (1) in mind, we could technically and scripturally refer to Moses and angels as "god(s)." We don't because today we generally, exclusively (and inaccurately) associate the title "God" with the Almighty alone.

It could also be argued that the removal of the divine name from most modern bibles (and the replacement of it with titles such as "Elohim" and "Adonai") has blurred the line and clear distinction between those referred to as "Gods" in reference to some special authority, and the Almighty YHWH who shares his lofty, powerful position with no one.
---scott on 5/25/09

Bobby3 re. "...a being that is a god but less than God? (1)

Consider the Jewish/historical, and most importantly, biblical view of the title "God."

The Hebrew word for God ("El" or "Elohim") is a term that pre-Christian Jews as well as Christ's disciples knew had an application with the Almighty, angels (Ps 8:5/Heb 2:7), men (Ex 7:1, Jn 10:34, 35) and the Messiah (Is 9:6).

The Jews knew full well that Moses and the angels were not the Almighty because they were referred to as "God(s)." As strict monotheists they knew that the term could be used in a relative way.

---scott on 5/25/09

Nobody saw YHWH in the Garden of Eden.

As YHWH's 'Word' the pre-human Jesus likely was used to deliver Jehovah's messages. The pre-human Jesus would thus be the 'angel' referred to by Stephen at Acts 7:38 which 'spoke to him (Moses) in the mount Sinai'. Jesus would be that created angel used by YHWH to deliver messages to Moses.

Does Stephen say YHWH spoke to Moses on Mt Si'nai? NO! Does Stephen say an angel spoke to Moses? YES! YHWH is not an angel. If Jehovah used his 'first born', 'only begotten SON' to speak on His behalf, then the pre-human Jesus was the angel that spoke to Moses on Mt Si'nai.
---David8318 on 5/25/09

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Hello Trav, was it a trick question? I am not sure how to answer you.
I did not say that God was located inside my heart or that He was in my mind.

Although He is in my mine all the time. And Jesus is in my heart spiritually. In a relationship with me.
---MarkV. on 5/22/09

Yeah,a trick. Wanted to ask if you believed GOD. GOD makes a statement he follows through....right? Whether understood or not.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

Did GOD write the laws in a specific group of peoples heart and mind?
---Trav on 5/25/09

the correct jesus is the one he said he is.
---tom2 on 5/24/09

Marc, Actually Moses did not write Genises.
If you're touting "accuracy" then let's be accurate!
The 5 books of Moses were written by 4 groups identified as J,E,P and R. Too exhaustive to elaborate on here,but woven together like a great tapestry!
See "Who wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliot Friedman.(Summit Books NY)
---1st_cliff on 5/24/09

"For if you believed Moses, you'd believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you don't believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5:46-47)

Moses wrote:

"And Adam and Eve heard the sound of YHWH God walking in the garden." (Genesis 3:8)

"Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel, and they saw the God of IsraelSo they saw God...Then YHWH said to Moses" (Ex 24:9-12)

Is it possible to see the Father? No! Is it possible to see Jesus? Yes. Now who was walking in the garden and whom did Moses see? YHWH.

Logically Jesus, the Son of God, must be YHWH and "all should honour the Son just as the Father."
---Marc on 5/23/09

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Frances & Michael: Michael's list of the Ten Commandments is exactly as listed in the Catholic Catechism. If you compare it to the list that Jesus wrote in Exo 20:3-17, you will find that the Second Commandment (Graven Images) is missing, and the Tenth (Covet) is split in two to make up ten.

The Catholic Church also claims responsibility for changing the Fourth Commandment Sabbath to Sunday.

Dan 7:25 And he shall .... think to change times and laws:
---jerry6593 on 5/24/09

Ten Commandments from King James
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image ....etc
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord your god in vain....
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor thy father and they mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife...or anything of they neighbour's.
---frances008 on 5/23/09

So, according to Catholicism, it is okay by God's commandments, if we bow down and worship graven images even though it is mentioned in two complete verses within the ten commandments. Then a sentence and single verse at the end about the neighbour's possessions (including wife) are split into two commandments. Amazing.
---frances008 on 5/23/09

"...Cliff...You question whether Revelation is...inspired. You must wonder if the gospels were inspired when something doesn't fit your [beliefs]. Maybe the whole Bible was not inspired."

Bingo MarkV! The Cliffs, of the world, want to disprove the Bible or at least hope to create so much confusion the vast majority of huemanity will doubt it's Divine inspiration & "there you have it," -- the end of Christianity!

Satan's agenda has always been to cast doubt upon & destroy our faith in God's word. (Gen. 3) Relentlessly, the enemy targets our minds (souls). Besides demons, the devil (god of this world) has begotten children (sons...lesser gods) to do his will. (Jn. 8:42-44, Eph. 6:10-18)
---Leon on 5/23/09

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Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:
-I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
-You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
-Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
-Honor your father and your mother.
-You shall not kill.
-You shall not commit adultery.
-You shall not steal.
-You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
-You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
-You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
Ex 20:3-17 covers the commandments and in that has been pulled out 10.. How they are divided or combined is disputed.
---Michael on 5/23/09

I read on one source that the Catholics took out a Commandment (or merged it with another) and then split another Commandment in two to make Ten again. This was in order to submerge, or try and overlook the commandment against idolatry, graven images etc. Does anyone have any stories about this and is it factual?
---frances008 on 5/23/09

Jerry, this is new for me. is it possible to list the ten commandments of Jesus with the Bible reference(s) so I can study it as well?
---Michael on 5/23/09


"The Jesus of the Bible. And not the "cherry picked verse" Bible - the WHOLE Bible, taken in its proper context.

I will say that a so-called "Mormon" may have one view of Jesus that is "correct" taken in its proper Biblical context, while a so-called "Christian" may have a distorted view of Jesus if based upon a particular verse that is misinterpreted or taken out of context."
---obewan on 5/22/09

Amen! I don't often agree with you, but I think you are right on in this.
---jerry6593 on 5/23/09

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Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments." Those who keep all Ten of Jesus' Commandments are they who honor Him.
---jerry6593 on 5/23/09

1 cliff, put your faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Believe in Him and who He says He is. Pray to God for wisdom, for He gives liberally to anyone who asks. Seek God and be rewarded.
Jam 1:5, Heb 11:6, John 14:6, John 3:16
---Michael on 5/23/09

MarkV:Whenever you discuss a topic that has no black and white proof,just a matter of belief, then you have to make "a judgement call"
There's no "proof" that Paul was inspired,just because "he said so".
Even in the 4th century CE Eusebius questioned including Revelation! The synod of Laodicea (363CE)did not include Revelation!
Even today the Syrian Orthodox Church does not include 2Peter,Jude,2-3 John or Revelation!! Is this not a judgement call???
The NT was assembled by committee,each one making a judgement call! Inspiration???
Proof? It's not a matter of understanding,
but millions believe so it must be so??
---1st_cliff on 5/23/09

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