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Works Based Salvation Biblical

Why does the OSAS crowd keep saying that those who are obedient to God are trying to do works without Christ when it is false?

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 ---miche3754 on 6/2/09
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Once again Markv, you have looked at the wrong part of the statement.
Jerry is saying that God gives us choice whom we will serve. That is freewill.
Please stop trying to make yourself out to be a martyr,because no one has said anything untowards you that is wrong.
Stop being so defensive and open your spiritual eyes because the things of the Spirit can't be seen with natural eyes.
---miche3754 on 6/8/09


My Bible tells me that God and Satan are enemies - not partners, and that I am given free choice as to whom I will serve.
---jerry6593 on 6/8/09


AMEN brother! well put. We cannot serve 2 masters, yet the Bible speaks that some try to do this.
Duane, isn't it wonderful that what you said, I said too? We are not here to condemn. We are called to love!
I really believe brother, that you aren't that far from the truth, just young in Spirit. God bless you and continue desiring God's truth Brother!
---miche3754 on 6/8/09


Jerry, where did I say that God and the devil were partners? Where do you come out with this things? Is it just to argue another point? It must be because you twisted what I said around. Did I imply they were partners?
When someone is an instrument to someone else, does that show partnership? If you wanted to speak about Predestination, why didn't you go to the blog for that topic?
I will put it this way: "God is the Most High. Lord of heaven and earth. Subject to none, influence by none. Absolutely independent. God does as He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases. None can thwart Him, none can hinder Him. For He says,
"My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" Isa. 46:10
---MarkV. on 6/8/09


Duane~ Thanks, but please understand no one is seeking to condemn, but we are seeking to come to truth.

Some teach here that to consciencely, knowingly sin after we believe we are 'saved' is not a cause for concern. But this IS a cause for concern, and is teaching exactly opposite of the Bible.

New Christians get very confused by such teachings and believe they can continue to live as they did before they knew the truth of salvation. New Christians know very little of the Bible and are probably getting taught wrong doctrine by smooth talking teachers. They NEED to know we must GROW in the Lord and live to obey Him and seek His word, or they could suffer some dire consequences.
---Anne on 6/8/09


Jerry wrote: "My Bible tells me that God and Satan are enemies -not partners, and that I am given free choice to whom I will serve." Excellent teaching Jerry.

Also Miche wrote: "No one said God would lose anything. We are telling those who skate on thin ice with God, those who have one foot in the world and one in salvation, that they are in danger of losing salvation if they don't separate themselves from the world and stop sinning."--More great teaching!

We can't serve God and Satan/this world both...for we will either love one and hate the other. Let us seek to live for God and fight the ways of the enemy.
---Anne on 6/8/09




Anne and miche and whoever,Christians in here love the Lord. If we love HIM we will of course obey HIM. WE WILL DO THE BEST WE CAN BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. Christians dont go out and sin just because they think they can. Thats not love. Lets just ask another if they love HIM. The bible says, love one another and love God. Our duty is to preach the Cross of Christ to all. Lets leave our differences behind and not condemn. Its very distasteful.
---duane on 6/8/09


Mark "For God loses none of His children. Not a one....Satan and his demons are but instruments of the Lord."

This is where the blasphemous predestination philosophy takes you. Some were created for salvation, while others were specifically created for eternal torture. You have Satan in partnership with God - allies with the same purpose. What do we call a man that would pick one of his children and torture him for his entire life? A monster! Why should we expect less of God, who claims to love ALL his children?

My Bible tells me that God and Satan are enemies - not partners, and that I am given free choice as to whom I will serve.
---jerry6593 on 6/8/09


Suzie...AMEN!

Markv, no one said God would lose anything. We are telling those who skate on thin ice with God, those who have one foot in the world and one in salvation, that they are in danger of losing their salvation if they don't seperate themselves from the world and stop sinning.
God won't lose them at all. Actually they will be the ones losing because they refuse to give up the wicked ways of the world. It is their choice. Do they love God more or do they love the world more? If they choose God, they have their salvation. If they choose the world, they have death. It's not too late for them. But you have said you don't believe in this. Sad really, God calls us to help bring his lost sheep back in, not condemn them.
---miche3754 on 6/7/09


SuzieH~ Excellent scripture. Also what you wrote was beautifully said:

"It is your choice/actions you are His child or not. While you His, no one can separate you from Him except you."
---Anne on 6/7/09


Hos 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge...

Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Lord says you have a choice to make.
Abide in Him and He will abide in you.

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good,
or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt...

It is by your choice/actions you are his child or not. While you are His no one can separate you from Him except you.

True Faith (Believing + works) like Abraham/Noah. Jm2
---SuzieH on 6/7/09




I made an error in my previous blog. What I meant to say is: Giving the Lord's tithe to your pastor is a sin against God since God, Himself, has told you who to give His tithe to. So IF you believe you are under God's command to tithe, follow the command. Don't try to rationalize or change the words to fit your needs. You either follow God's word, or you don't. Changing the words results in it being man's word. God's tithe was holy. What man thinks is a tithe is not holy. Church leaders need to stick to the scriptures and not change words and meanings.
---Gary on 6/7/09


Anne, I will speak your language, you have been deceived. For God loses none of His children. Not a one. With your religious believes think that any child of God can be taken away from God. You have no faith in the Power of God, and no faith in Christ.
God is Omnipotent and no one else is. Satan and his demons are but instruments of the Lord. Your faith is not in God. And everyday you speak of such things as God losing His children you are not working for God and His Son, but against Them. "They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"
---MarkV. on 6/7/09


Do you realize that tithing is doing works? Have you really studied your Bible on tithing? God's command to tithe was on MIRACLES OF GOD, the crops and animals, and NEVER on anything that man made or earned. In the nineteenth century, church leaders essentially diluted the tithe from God's miracles to man's achievements? In other words, in the tithing formula, man has replaced God with himself! Furthermore, God said the tithe belonged to Him, and He gave the tithe to the Levites. What right does anyone have to give God's tithe to someone other than a Levite? Pastors are NOT Levites. Giving to your pastor is a sin against God.
---Gary on 6/6/09


For sin shall have NO power over you. Christians are now dead to sin and alive to God.
---duane on 6/6/09


MarkV~ Do you believe Christ will SUSTAIN you if you fall back into temptation and submit to sin? Why do you believe the Bible tells us to put on the full armor of God? Why do you believe the Bible perpetually warns us? Don't you know sin contaminates and separates us from God? These are basic common sense principles. Don't you have faith in Christ's teachings and have a godly respectful fear of His easy to understand warnings?

When we submit to sin we are not serving Christ but Satan. God does 'not know' those who decide to serve/choose sin. He warns us of this truth through His word perpetually.

Paul also tells us NOT to be deceived for those who feed to the flesh and not the Spirit will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
---Anne on 6/6/09


Mark V~ You are deceived, for MANY times people who sincerely repent get enticed by temptations and submit back to sins.

Two obvious example were David and Solomon.

Sin is of the devil.

You can't serve God and sin both...Don't be deceived.

Sin SEPARATES us from God.

Even if we were once an amazing servant of God, sin contaminates/separates, and God does 'not know' those who serve sin.

This is why DAILY we must put on the armor of God to protect ourselves from this evil world and protected by God.

Wonderfully, David at last repented/returned after atleast 9 months of sinful living, while Solomon did not return. That's why the Bible is full of warnings to be on guard against deception/temptations.
---Anne on 6/6/09


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Apart for Me you can do nothing, for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life and faith without is dead for even now those who sow and those who reap and share in the production of the service of the fruits of the Kingdom of God are yielding the fruits of their works for eternal inheritances that remain.

For if One Father decided to disinherit a Woman and divorce her as an example to alot of other peoples as in the Prophets because of her sins as Hosea did and fulfilled in Jesus at Jerusalem where The kingdom will be taken and given among those who bear its fruits, and then He restored some to their inheritance in the process in the diaspora, then how is this apart from The Works of God which is to believe in The One?
---jack_david on 6/6/09


Anne, true disciples of Christ will never fall away. They will never be lost not because of man but because of God. They will be kept by the power of God. Jesus say He will sustain you. Don't you have faith in Christ? Why would God save you one day and abandon you the next? For what reason? to fool you?
And if you are born of the Spirit where in Scripture does it say the Spirit will leave you if you sin? Where in Scripture does it say that the imputed righteousness of Christ will be removed? And where does it say, that after you are born again and you sin, you go back to been spiritually dead again? Where? How do you account to all that? How can your theology reconcile those questions? It cannot.
---MarkV. on 6/6/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

A 'BRETHREN' is a BELIEVER of Christ endeavoring to do wonderful works in His Name as a 'SERVANT' but not all of them who've said Lord Lord, are Converted & 'BORN-AGAIN', denying the will of their flesh by a Sincere Vow of Repentance and shall still be Judged as a evil hearted unbelieving worker of iniquity who Christ doesn't know & never knew(Matt.7:21-23)

God isn't Deceived nor does His Grace Save the 'Insincere Repentance' of Believers like in James 5:19-20 & Luke 12:45-46, who later choose to 'Apostatize' by rejecting the Spirit to live in sin, never Sincerely denying the will of their flesh to be Born-Again & Drawn into Saving Faith in Christ, by their Vow of Repentance !
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/6/09


True deciples don't do God's works on their own strength/ability.- markv

Will you please stop saying this false statement. It is as if it has become your bread and butter.
No one said they get their strength on their on mark. I am really sick and tired of you falsely accusing people of saying this when NO ONE SAID THIS.
And yes, A Christians can stop following God. The Bible says some who follow will get tired and weary thinking their Lord isn't coming back for them, so they return to their old ways.Mark the BIBLE sas this, why d you deny it when it it there in black and white in GOD"S WORD?
---miche3754 on 6/5/09


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MarkV~ I believe God gave us free-will to choose if we will follow the Lord and obey Him or not.

You seem to believe that God created us basically as His robots with no free-will to choose if we want to follow Him and let Him lead our lives, or if we want to submit to temptation and follow after the god of this world, Satan.

MarkV, many born-again believers later choose to not let he Lord lead their lives. They get enticed by a temptation and submit to sin. Sin separates us from God since sin is of the devil. We can't serve God and this world both for we will either love one and hate the other. The Holy Spirit is rejected by these once saved individuals. Some are like the prodigal and gloriously return/repent, but many never will.
---Anne on 6/5/09


Anne, you tell the Truth in the beginning, then you distroy what you said with your next paragrah, You wrote, Christ did more than shed His blood...He is alive and working in the lives of all His true deciples today." True deciples don't do God's works on their own strength/ability. It is solely God who is doing the works THROUGH us. It is not my merits I put my faith in for I have none, I put my faith in God and HIS works in my life."
Then you turn around and say "Christians do not have to continue to follow Him"
True disciples you said, So what about that work that God is doing in their lives? You said, It is soley God who is doing the works through us.
---MarkV. on 6/5/09


Anne 2: God must not be doing anything right through the "true disciples" because somehow they have not changed at all. Why even mention that God is doing anything through them if they can just walk away?
Such nonsense. Either God is working in their lives or He is not. Either they are save or they are not. Either they are true disciples or they are fakes, imposters. No Holy Spirit in them. Then they could have never been true Christians. Don't you see what you are doing? You want to believe the Truth but you want to continue to argue for works of man. You cannot have both. Only one is true, and the one True gospel in base on the works of Christ alone.
---MarkV. on 6/5/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

A 'Brethren' is a Believer of Christ endeavoring to do wonderful works in His Name as a 'Servant' BUT not all the Brethren who've said Lord Lord, are Converted & Saved by a Sincere Vow of Repentance to deny the will of their flesh to Joyously Live in His Will and they shall still be judged as the evil hearted unbelieving workers of iniquity who Christ doesn't know & never knew(Matt.7:21-23).

Many Brethren as in James 5:19-20 & Luke 12:45-46, who later find themselves rejecting the Spirit & living in the sin of 'Apostatizing', really didn't in their initial Vow of Repentance Sincerely deny the will of their flesh. Jesus is not deceived & He ONLY Saves Sincere Repenter!
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/5/09


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Warwick~ Yes, well said.

Miche and Alan~ Nicely said you two and I agree exactly with those comments.
---Anne on 6/5/09


MarkV~ You CAN be a true believer and apostasize. Why do you believe most of the Bible is warnings to the brethren? It's especially difficult in our day since most churches are teaching salvation is merely saying a few words and then you basically go back to life as usual. There's no spiritual fervor since most ministers are blind leading the blind.

I honestly feel most churches are a death-trap today. They are not proclaiming the full council of God, are more concerned about following traditions of men instead of being a place of spiritual growth/wellness, and are not being bold but watering down the true gospel. People are falling asleep in lukewarmness and are set up for spiritual falls. That is why we must put on the spiritual armor.
---Anne on 6/5/09


markv,this is inreference to what you said.

1. This one is true. So, I agree
2. Never said this. We said works of Christ through us is evidence we are HIS.
Markv, Christ is here with us in Spirit only. SO, to show he does save and change people, Christ does HIS work through HIS people.
Would you believe a person is Christian if they weren't following Christ's example as we are commanded?
3. No, we are saying they aren't obeying Christ when they don't follow HIS good works.
4. OSAS is a falsehood.
The Bible says if you do not accept Christ AND follow his ways, you will be cast out.
By following Christ ways as well as accepting him as your savior, you ARE showing faith in him.
---miche3754 on 6/5/09


Anne, all who are born of the Spirit will follow Christ till they die. If they apostazie they are not true believers in Christ because all true believers overocme, endure, are chasten by God and if someone is not chasten by God he is an illegitimate child.
"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons"
All who are born of the Spirit are true sons of God, and when they fail, God says, "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
---MarkV. on 6/5/09


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MarkV~ Anyone can say they have faith in God and faith that God raised Jesus from the dead. Even the demons believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. But we know that Jesus' blood does not pay for the sins of the demons or for the sins of those who may say they 'believe'/'have faith' in God yet are not showing it by not living to God's glory.

It's not the 'hearers' who are justified, but the 'doers.' The doers are those who are deciples/followers of Jesus as evidenced by the fact that they live in obedience to Him and abide in Him.

TRUE faith is evidenced by the fact that a person lives to God's glory. This is spoken of in detail in the book of James.

Faith is not 'lip-service'...Faith is living and real.
---Anne on 6/5/09


Anne are you saying we are saved by God's grace, through Jesus' death and resurrection? And we then demonstrate the reality of our salvatipon, and maintain right relationship with God, by doing the works He has prepared for us to do?
---Warwick on 6/5/09


MarkV ... Your point 2 is invalid. Nowhere has anyone said that "it takes man's works for him to be saved"

Points 3 and 4 are invalid. In spite of constant expalantions of what we mean, you misunderstand what we say.

If I said, "I like cats", would you interpret that as meaning I hated dogs? I doubt it, but that is the sort of misinterpretation you apply in this and the predestination debates.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/5/09


laverne~ Thank you for you contribution. OSAS stands for "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine.

laverne, you said it very well- "when we believe in Christ we can't keep on sinning willfully for remember to whom one yields himself to obey whether sin unto death or Christ unto life." God bless and hope you are enjoying the blogs.
---Anne on 6/4/09


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MarkV~ Of course Christ's works on the cross are sufficient to save us. But to teach ONLY this is to teach a partial gospel not the COMPLETE gospel message.

Christ did more than shed His blood...He is alive and working in the lives of all His true deciples today. True deciples don't do God's works on their own strength/ability. It is solely God who is doing the works THROUGH us. It is not my merits I put my faith in for I have none, I put my faith in God and HIS works in my life.

Christians do not HAVE to continue to follow Him. Most will fall away unfortuneately. They do this because they return to the wide path of Satan and leave the Lord to please the flesh. These people do not have Jesus working in their live but darkness.
---Anne on 6/4/09


--Laverne:

The crowd being referred to by Miche here are some of the individuals who believe that 'Once Sealed Always Sealed' or 'Once Saved Always Saved', which is what 'OSAS' means!!

Hope this help.

Peace Unto You & God Bless
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/4/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

When we 'Sincerely Repent', we're vowing to denied the will of our flesh to Joyously Live in the Will of our Lord Jesus.

If later we're living in sin & rejecting His Spirit, then we didn't Sincerely denied the will of our flesh, in our initial vow of Repentance. Jesus is not deceived & He ONLY Saves Sincere Repenter.

God Judges us according to our will & by sincerely denied it, His Grace Draws us into Saving Faith in Christ. It's why the Lord said, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have Chosen you"

Just as "We're only able to Love God because He First Loved us", we're only able to obediently persist til the end by the Lord's Obedience unto Death Living in us.
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/4/09


MarkV~ Yes we understand exactly what you're saying, but what you're teaching is not accurate according to God's word. That is why we continue to try and show you continuously and others what TRUE security in Christ means.

True security is found in FOLLOWING Jesus. If we choose not to follow Him, we are no longer His deciples plain and simple. God does allow us to RETURN to Him is we dessert Him and He takes the sincere back readily.

We are not sure why you don't understand this since this is made so clear all throughout the Bible.
---Anne on 6/4/09


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Anne, I would like to explain in a correct way for you to understand what I am saying.
1. We are saved by grace through faith on the merits of Christ on the Cross, and faith that God raised Him from the dead.
2. When you state that it takes man's works for him to be saved, it is implying that Christ works on the cross are insufficient to save you.
3. When you state that believers can lose salvation because of some deeds not done by the believer, you are implying that your faith and trust in not in Christ for your life, but is in you and what you do as a person.
4. When you say, that OSAS is false, you are saying that we as believers should not put our faith in Christ but on our own merits. Meaning you have no faith in Christ.
---MarkV. on 6/4/09


MarkV.~ Of course I understand you, but what you don't understand is that Miche, Suzie, Dave, Nana, myself etc. have a very strong feeling of security/faith in Christ...and I believe that is what you don't understand about us.

The reason we have this great security in Christ is we know that day by day we LIVE in Him. Christ is our EVERYTHING. We abide in Him and He guides us each day. We walk in the His Light and leave the ways of darkness. We love Him with all our hearts and fear Him.

What bothers us is when many people teach a 'false security.' They seem to be saying that we don't need to be careful about our spiritual walk. These people concern us greatly since they make new inexperienced Christians lukewarm toward God etc.
---Anne on 6/4/09


Anne, security in Christ is putting your faith in Christ for your salvation. You, her and many others are not putting that faith in the security found in Christ.
That does not mean you are not saved, it only means you have no in the security found in Christ.
When a person is saved he is saved because by faith he believes that Christ works on the cross paid for his sins, and that God raise Him from the dead. Once you are saved, doesn't mean that because you have no security you are not saved. It only means you have no faith in your security. That at sometime or another you might lose what you have. Don't you get it? What is so hard to understand? Do I have to put it in Spanish?
---MarkV. on 6/4/09


mima* 14 years after his experience on the road to Damascus " Paul made this statement. First Timothy 1:15
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,-- of whom I am chief--." Again I remind you this is the apostle Paul 14 years after his conversion.

He also said "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."(Phil 2:12)

Mima* Now I know you are a very religious person, very righteous, hard-working, and keep the laws, but are you more righteous, are you more perfect than the apostle Paul?

?
---Ruben on 6/4/09


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Mima, yes that is true BUT what are we told to do After Christ saves us?
We are to pick up our cross and FOLLOW in Christ'a footsteps. To follow HIS will.
To sin, mima is to miss God's mark for us.
Paul said we are also told called to make our election sure by following in Christ was AFTER he has given us his grace.
In these end times we are called to endure in and with Christ because there are so many false doctrine that say all you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you are saved. They aren't telling them that we must walk seperate from the world. That we are God's peculiar people who do his will and not our own. Paul says for us to be as he was. Not better but the same.
---miche3754 on 6/4/09


hello my fellow bloggers im sort of new to this blogging. who is osas crowd? Ok obeying christ is obeying God. The only way back unto the father is by jesus. Ok again when paul make the statement for all have sinned and come short of Gods glory, he made that statement to show that the human race everyone when they are born into this world is born into sin,this statement was made so those who believe in christ can keep on willfully sinning remember to whom one yields himself to obey wether sin unto death or christ unto life
---laverne on 6/4/09


14 years after his experience on the road to Damascus (the time of his conversion " Paul made this statement. First Timothy 1:15
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,-- of whom I am chief--." Again I remind you this is the apostle Paul 14 years after his conversion. Now I know you are a very religious person, very righteous, hard-working, and keep the laws, but are you more righteous, are you more perfect than the apostle Paul?
---mima on 6/4/09


But that is the way of those who don't put their faith in Christ for their salvation.
-markv
How many times have you said this to me? MANY
And obviously you didn't read all of my last post. Try going back and reading it again.This is part of what I said...
"If that is not what he(markv) believes then I apologize."
You are very quick to jump the gun. I have never said you aren't saved or don't have full faith in God. But you sure say that about me. All because I disagree with you on what you think is the whole truth.
Mark you have said it is impossible to stop sinning when WITH CHRIST it is possible. That verse you gave says IF you sin, CHrist is quick to forgive. You still have to ask for it though.
---miche3754 on 6/4/09


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"So please stop saying things I never said"

MarkV ... I lost count of the times that on several blogs I made that same appeal to you.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/4/09


MarkV.~ You just told Miche that she doesn't put her faith in Christ for her salvation.

This is about the furthest thing from the truth I have ever read. It grieves me that she has to read these things and endure such false accusations and persecutions from you.

But...I also know that Miche is a strong soldier of Christ and she loves Him with all her heart. I know she counts all suffering as joy when she suffers for Him. That fills my heart with great joy.
---Anne on 6/4/09


Miche, 2: It is with great displeasure that you would say such things I never said. But that is the way of those who don't put their faith in Christ for their salvation. They want people to think that because we have faith in our assurance we think it is ok to keep sinning. It is never ok to keep sinning. None, who is in love with the Lord thinks it ok to keep sinning. And God does forgive our future sins, for we have an Advocate in Christ Jesus so that when we do sin, we confess our sin because all true believers are convicted when they do sin, and they go to Christ. So please stop saying things I never said.
---Mark_V. on 6/4/09


Many people think God's grace= 'free ticket' to heaven and believe they will not have to personally account for their lives. Yet the Bible says:

1. Through following the Lord Jesus, we must persist in doing good so He'll give us eternal life. (Rom 2:7)

2. We must deny the flesh and instead sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life.
(To 'reap' means to eventually gain eternal life IF we remain faithful in following Him (Gal 6:8,9)

3. We must endure in Him to the end on the strait and narrow. (Lk 13:24) God's Spirit remains with those who remain in His Spirit. But, if we choose to sin and not repent, we again are separated from God until we earnestly repent. If we choose to abide in the Lord He continuously guides us.
---Anne on 6/4/09


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Miche, where did I say, "As far as Markv is concerned, "He has said that Christ forgives future sins without us asking." Where did I state such a thing? Please print when I did. I will acknowledge it if I did. you then said,
" We know this is not true. We know that we are to strive for Holiness in Christ.
Markv has said we absolutely can't stop sinning. Saying it's okay to keep sinning is not biblical. The Bible says otherwise.
Where did I state it is okay to keep sinning? Please, when you quote me be able to give proof or else just don't say anything. If you just want to trash what I say, then just do it but admit it, that that is what you are doing.
---Mark_V. on 6/4/09


You cannot enter the kingdom of god go to heaven without receiving the holy spirt with the evidence of speaking in tongues, be baptized by full immersion, repent, and walk in the spirit. Peter the Apostle told the crowd what they had to do. In the Bible (Acts 2:38) he specified the response they should have to their newly found knowledge that Jesus had indeed died for them and was risen from the dead.
He told them this: "...repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...When people received the Holy Spirit they spoke in new tongues (languages they had not learned). You can read about the first time this happened in Acts 2:1-4.
---louise on 6/4/09


Alan,
Thank you for being such a nice mediator and I pray God blesses you for it.
As far as Markv is concerned, He has said that Christ forgives future sins without us asking. We know this is not true. We know that we are to strive for Holiness in Christ.
Markv has said we absolutely can't stop sinning. Saying it's okay to keep sinning is not biblical. The Bible says otherwise.
Just believing Christ won't help you stop sinning is shaken faith in him. We need to be speaking the truth on this.
If that is not what he believes then I apologize. BUT I will not apologize for speaking all of God's truth.
---miche3754 on 6/4/09


Anne, the first three are correct, the last one is not. You say there is conditions. And when something is free as grace is there can be no conditions.
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, been justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith to demonstrate His rightousness."
God declares a sinner righteous solely on the basis of the merits of Christ righteousness. God imputed a believers sin to Christ's account in His sacrificial death (Is. 53:4,5, 1Peter 2:24) and He imputes Christ's perfect obedience to God's law to Christians 5:18, 1 Cor. 1:30).
---Mark_V. on 6/4/09


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Anne 2: Justification is a gracious gift God extends to the repentant, believing sinner, solely apart from human merit or works. When God saves someone, He never makes mistakes. He knows who will continue to follow Him for He says under the New Covenant"I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." All those who are genuine believers made righteous by God, will be overcomers, will be chastise everything they sin, will have an Advocate in Jesus Christ if they do sin. They will be obedient to the Lord and there habit will never be to sin anymore. None or lost for God loses no one who is His child. All other gospels are false.
---Mark_V. on 6/4/09


I think the confusion lies in this question:

What Are The 'Works' we are speaking about?

Now...Miche is not saying that she is basing her salvation on works SHE did...

If she believed this Miche would be saying proud statements like:

-I'm saved because of the works I do like:
'going to church', 'I take communion every week', 'I'm a great person' and so on...

Now...we all know Miche is humble and does not trust in HER works to save her.

Miche is someone who trusts in JESUS' works for her salvation.

BUT...

She does not merely trust in His PAST works of His death on the cross etc, but ALSO on Jesus' PRESENT works in HER life.

She gives HIM all the glory! Amen!
---Anne on 6/4/09


More comments concerning 'works':

If we do not see the works of JESUS in our lives then we need to get some very serious fear in our hearts.

The works of JESUS working in our lives are evidenced by such things as:

1. Walking in the Spirit and not the flesh.
2. Abiding in Jesus by following Him obediently/faithfully and doing His will.
3. Having a clear clean conscience.
4. Faithfully living by the Holy Word of God.
5. Forsaking all sin/darkness and walking in the Light.
6. Growing in God's purity, righteousness, and holiness.
7. Witnessing the good news to all mankind.
8. Withstanding persecution
9. Seeing the fruits of the Spirit in our lives.
10. Love for others.
---Anne on 6/4/09


God has given man from the first of his creation a heart with the capacity to love and have mercy. God's word has from time inmemorial been teaching the ways of love, justice and mercy. Christ quoted Scripture, "they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Proverbs 22:6: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." John 3:21: "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." All that is good is of God and will inherit Christ.
Luke 10, Samaritan, Matthew 25:30-46.
---Nana on 6/4/09


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HOW DO WE GET TO HEAVEN:

1. By grace, not works (Eph 2:8.9)We don't deserve heaven, it's a miraculous free gift since Jesus died for us rotten sinners.

2. Sincerely ask God in prayer to have mercy on you a sinner. (Lk 18:13) Sincere repentance means we'll truly forsake all sin. Jesus only saves those who sincerely repent.

3. Deny yourself, take up your cross daily counting your suffering as joy as you follow/obey Him (Lk 9:23).

4. God's grace is not a 'free ticket' to heaven. The Bible tells us:
- We must persist in doing good so He'll give us eternal life (Rom 2:7)
-We must sow to please the Spirit to reap eternal life (Gal 6:8,9)
-We must endure in Him to the end on the strait and narrow.(Lk 13:24)

---Anne on 6/3/09


Mark ... "What we are against is that you and the others insist that works is the basis for our salvation"

The thing is Mark, none of "us" (and I put that in quote marks, for I at least am totally independent of any others, but I do read what they write) have ever said that works are the basis for our salvation, nor that we rely on them for our salvation.

There's a tendency on these issues for those on both sides of the discussion to imagine what the other person may be saying, and to make the worst of, rather than actually reading it.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/3/09


I too have been hurt by MarkV in the past, for he has said by saying that after being saved, we need to keep as free as possible of sin, I am saying that I am relying on works to save me.

Maybe either he has not understood what we say, or has not realised how his words will appear.

On the other hand, Miche's comment about MarkV "You actually think if you continuosly willfully sin but claim Christ, you will be saved" is unfair. Although Mark's words may sometimes seem to say that, I'm sure he does not mean it.

We all need to take greater care that what we say cannot be taken as an untrue accusation.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/3/09


Markv,
You have said these things to me, Anne, Dave and countless others.
You have said we were teaching works only.
It isn't us who don't understand the FULL work on the cross. It is you doesn't.
You actually think if you continuosly willfully sin but claim Christ, you will be saved. You say Christ covered all your future sins too.
That is a false doctrine markv.
You can't keep continuosly sinning. The word says those who love God eventualy stop sinning. You can't tell people that and expect Christ NOT to punish you for it. It is not according to God's word. Especially at these late times.
You may not have said them literally but you have certainly implied bad things of us.
---miche3754 on 6/3/09


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Miche, as to your question above,
"Why does the OSAS crowd keep saying that those who are obedient to God are trying to do works without Christ when it is false?"
I haven't heard anyone say that.
What we are against is that you and the others insist that works is the basis for our salvation.
What we are saying is that Jesus Christ works on the Cross is the basis for our Salvation. That nothing we do in this life contributes to our salvation.
That we do good things in life is only because of Christ living inside our hearts and our love for Him moving us.
If we didn't have Christ and we did good things, then it would be sin since it is not of faith in Christ. For everything we do without faith is sin.
---MarkV. on 6/3/09


Amen Anne,
I couldn't have said it better myself.
How many times does Christ say "he that endures to the end shall have everlasting life through ME"?
Several, from what I have read in the Bible.
So, why do some ignore the "endures" part?
It is almost like it isn't there to them.
We must endure til the end.Here is just a few of the many scripture that says we have to.
Mat.10:22, 24:12-13
Mark 13:13
Hebrews 3:6, 3:14
1 Peter 1:13, 4:7
Christ's Grace is given freely, after that we must endure in it until the end.
There is no way around this.
---miche3754 on 6/3/09


Shawn,
I would not put you in with the normal OSAS crowd. And you have never questioned wheather I was saved or not.
But, I am sure you have read where others have. I won't name any names as they know who they are.
It has been said that I don't understand HOW Christ saved me and such. That I don't understand salvation at all in fact.
Christ himself says for us to endure as he did. If we don't he will remove salvation from us.
We have to be in Christ and endure with him to the end no matter the hardships that come our way. But when I say this, they say I don't understand when I do.
---miche3754 on 6/3/09


I. Gospel associated with eternal security wants people to believe:

A. Salvation begins in a moment and is always guaranteed to continue.

B. There is nothing to do on man's part for God keeps/seals us us.

C. Sin can never bring a Christian to spiritual death regardless of the sin. Some Christians= adulterers, drunkards, thieves etc.

II. Gospel that teaches the full Bible message teaches:

A. Salvation begins in a moment and continues as long as we follow Jesus.

B. Man cooperates with God to keep and hold us spiritually safe. Christians need to grow or they'll inevitably turn lukewarm, regress, and grow unfruitful like a dying plant.

C. Sin corrupts/can bring spiritual death if left unrepented.
---Anne on 6/3/09


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--Miche:

Sister, What exactly are the 'Tares' of this doctrine that are taught, that are accuse your spiritual walk of not being a true believer following Christ?
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/3/09


There is plenty of instruction that Jesus gave as to how we should behave if we are to be recognised by God when our time comes to be judged.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/2/09

Amen alan!

Rev. 2:4-5
Rev. 2:10b-11
Rev. 2:16-17
Rev. 2:24-29
Rev. 3:3
Rev. 3:5-6
Rev. 3:11
Revelations is full of commands for Christians to hold fast to him and Jesus tells what will happen if we don't.
---miche3754 on 6/3/09


more_excellent_way on 6/2/09
I apologize for the abreviation. OSAS means once saved always saved.
Shawn T,

Its all of those who believe this doctrine as it is taught that myself, Anne, Dave, Suzie, and others are not true believers and followers of Christ. They call names and say someone is not saved. They show the fruit of malice. That is not a fruit of Christ.
I believe as long as Im in Christ and I follow his will for my life that Im saved.
Thats the full truth of what God says.
Faith is the beginning. IN that we must follow Christ and his will for our lives. If we don't we arent saved.
That means even if we say we are saved but don't follow by continuing willful sinning, then we aren't.
---miche3754 on 6/3/09


Isaiah says of New Testament Judgment:

33:8-16
-he hath broken the covenant-

The earth mourneth and languisheth:

Now will I rise, saith the LORD, now will I be exalted...

...The sinners in Zion are afraid, fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire...

He that walketh righteously,
and speaketh uprightly,
he that despiseth the gain of oppressions,
that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes,
that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood,
and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil,

He shall dwell on high:
his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks:
bread shall be given him,
his waters shall be sure.
---SuzieH on 6/3/09


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--Alan of UK:

Brother, Absolutely! Every doctrine of man(OSAS included) has preachers & teachers falsely advocating the Truth in their books & pulpits, believing they're Saved obedient servants of Christ(Matt.7:21-23) but remain careless do to an unchanged heart, still willfully sinning.

God is not deceived nor does He look upon & lump together the Truth of His 'Wheat', with the 'Tares' of man made doctrine that has sprung up among His Good Seed(Matt.24-30). His Chosen Elect are not deceived either. As God's Children walk through the world, we take heed to His 'warnings' to sustain from the darkness of 'Tares', while comprehending His Truth shining among the dark Tares as Beacon of Light : This being His Good Seed of 'Wheat'
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/2/09


"We no longer put our Trust in man made teachings, no matter how nefariously wise, serious or sound it appears"

Indeed so. Once Saved Always Saved, if taken to extreme, is one of those.

There is plenty of instruction that Jesus gave as to how we should behave if we are to be recognised by God when our time comes to be judged.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/2/09


2)To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

We're able to Love God because He First Loved us and it's only through being Drawn by God's Love into the Charity of Loving our Lord, God with all our Heart, Soul & Mind, that we're able to 'Endure'(persevere) all things :FOR Charity never faileth!!

Do not be deceived, it's not of your own strength but the 'Passion of Christ' which has persevered unto Salvation. All Glory goes to God for supplying all the needs of the Chosen Elect through His Riches & Glory in Christ Jesus : Whose strength is made perfect in God's Children's weakness, enabling us to do all things, 'Persevering' in His Obedience Unto Death. (2Cor.12:9-10)
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/2/09


3)To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

The Body of Christ is a 'Great Team' who humbly & harmoniously works together for Christ sake to Edify the Brethren.

The will of God's Children is that 'His Will Be Done' AMEN. Salvation isn't a 'Reward' but a 'Inheritance' : God's Free Gift to 'Whosoever Ask'(James 4:1-3) to be Born-Again, into the Obedience Unto Death of Christ.

Now shall we sin, being Saved under Grace, God forbid!(Rom.6:15-22) We no longer put our Trust in man made teachings, no matter how nefariously wise, serious or sound it appears. God nor His Elect shall be deceived, because we have a relationship with His indwelling Spirit who Guides, Teaches & keep us in Remembrance of the Truth we're Sealed unto in Christ.
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/2/09


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There are people in the world who do not know what the abbreviations you use mean.

If you want to sabotage/limit your learning experiences in life, use abbreviations that other people don't know.

Using abbreviations that people don't understand is not a good idea because a person might have the answer you need but they feel it's too much trouble to ask what your abbreviation means. Be considerate and let everyone know what your abbreviation means.
---more_excellent_way on 6/2/09


--Miche:

Sister, God doesn't look upon & lump together the 'Wheat' of OSAS who comprehend & walk in His Truth, with the 'Tares' of OSAS(Matt.24-30), So it's Wrong of you to lump all the OSAS as saying...

Every doctrine has preachers & teachers falsely advocating the Truth in their books & pulpits, they believe they're Saved obedient servants of Christ(Matt.7:21-23) but remain careless in an unchanged heart, unbeknown to them, still willfully sinning.

The Truth of 'Once Sealed Always Sealed' applies to those who have been Born-Again Sealed with the Spirit of Promise by the Saving Faith in Obedience unto Death of Christ, Truth, Holiness, Forgiveness & Mercy by God's Loving Grace. Truly turned from the of evil sins.
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/2/09


1) To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Our Salvation is depended on the Obedience of Christ, upon which were Drawn into by the Love of God. Once our Heaven Father has brought us into the Saving Faith of an Obedient New Heart in Christ we're Eternally Saved & Sealed with the Lord's Promise of redeeming Salvation on the Last Day : FOR out of the Heart flows the issues of Life and that's what we're Sealed unto in Christ.
---Shawn_M.T. on 6/2/09


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