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Can God Have A God

How can God have a God? If Christ is part of a co-equal trinity, why is it that He refers to the Father as his God?

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 ---scott on 6/11/09
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the Seq,
True is that statement and they all knew that Jesus is the spiritual lens where they and we may see God.
However,God's form and shape is not the same as Jesus' form and shape for Jesus sits next to God today but does not claim his seat at the throne but at the right hand.
---earl on 6/15/09


Scott H,
Where in Hebrews Chapter 1 does the Father call the Son "My God?"

Even before looking at the Greek at Hebrews 1:8 (if this is the verse you are citing) to see how various translators have rendered it, I would make these two points:

1. At Hebrews 1:8 Paul quotes Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel (Solomon?). Obviously, the Bible writer of this Psalm (nor the Apostle Paul) thought that this human king was Almighty God.

2. Context is key. The very next verse says (speaking to the Son)
"That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions..." Heb 1:9

Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God.
---scott on 6/15/09


Leon,
You asked "who then do you believe He is?"

The verses that you have rolling by in your post (a very cool trick by the way) perfectly answers that question for me.

In agreement with Peter's response I believe that Christ is "...the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" Matt 16:16

I believe my everlasting life is fully dependent on my faith in Christ as the Son of God, the long awaited messiah, the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of world."

I believe that Christ's ultimate expression of self-sacrificing love on my behalf is an undeserved kindness that I can never repay accept (in my own small way) to champion scriptural truth as He did so masterfully.
---scott on 6/15/09


Apologies Scott, but the discussion as to whether Jesus is a human being in heaven is getting off the beaten track. A different blog may have to be opened to continue this point.

To answer your question directly, God cannot have a God. In Revelation, Jesus was as always addressing his God and his Father, Almighty God YHWH- Jehovah or Yahweh.

Christ is not part of Christendom's trinity, cultured out of the quagmire of Egyptian and Babylonian triune false deities which pre-date Christ.
---David8318 on 6/15/09


---exzucuh on 6/15/09 AMEN!

Jackie, There are countless unanswered questions like this one:

How did Jesus achieve the "glory of God?"

Principle:
Isaiah 55:11 -God's word doesn't return void
Staement (OT) from God:
Isaiah 42:8 -God said his glory he would not give to another.

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

The Bible has given us the explanation of God's glory and to sin is to not reach it which in turn means to not sin (holiness)is to reach it.

The Question: Why was Jesus allowed to reach it if he's not God, and God has said he wouldn't allow another to have his glory? Nobody wants to answer?
---Peter on 6/15/09




If you do not believe The Son of God came in the flesh you are Antichrist. The word is very clear and to the point. The Son of God became Flesh. He overcame sin as a man, Died for Sin as a Man, and ascended into heaven as a man and sat down at the right hand of God as a man. And is still a man and that same Glorified first born creature will return as the same Jesus that went into heaven and every eye will look upon him they pierced. Only A man could die for the sin of Man, Only sin could be placed on man, Only a man can be a perfect High priest because he knows what it is to be a man, Only a man can mediate for man, Because he has suffered as a man and endured the afflictions of man. Only man has blood and mans blood cleansed us of sin.
---exzucuh on 6/15/09


I don't think Pharisee quite knows what he is talking about. That or he is trying to wriggle out of the hole he's digging himself into.

1 Corinthians 15:50- 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.'

Pharisee- 'Flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom.'

But then, when given clear scriptural evidence Pharisee does admit, 'Because theyre changed!'

So Pharisee does agree that in the same way heavenly and earthly bodies differ, 'So also is the resurrection of the dead... imperishable body... glory etc...'

Spirit bodies and flesh & blood bodies are different.

'The first Adam became a living soul, the last Adam (Christ) BECAME a life giving SPIRIT'. 1 Cor.15:45.
---David8318 on 6/15/09


When my kids became teenagers and wanted real answers, I read and re-read the gospels to see who Christ was. I realized then the "trinity" is more of a theory or explanation to harmonize scripture rather than reality. I'm not sure any of us completely understands, but I become increasingly convinced that Christ did have a real father and son type relationship with God the Father and that he was not praying to himself, not sending himself to minister and atone, etc. I don't claim to know all the answers, but it is time that we realize that just as the pharisees built up false traditions that corrupted God's church prior to Christ, that perhaps man has somewhat corrupted things since.
---Jackie on 6/15/09


Sorry for being so abrupt.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,--
-Well, they saw him in his kingdom, right!

But, in
Joh 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
-Peter and john were there, and saw him, in his kingdom!

And in
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
-Hope its clear!

God love you!
---TheSeg on 6/14/09


Any utterance before God is a prayer,"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Why did he call on God and say "Lord Jesus?"

Here's why:

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."
Isaiah 44:6

"Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."Revelation 1:17-18

Keys = Ownership: He is Lord, what mere sinless Jewish man would take a title of God's from the OT???
---Pharisee on 6/14/09




"cannot honestly be saying that Jesus Christ, in his glorified, resurrected state is still a 'human being'? Heavenly and earthly bodies 'differ'" Why? Because they're changed!

What's the wedding feast is for, did you think it was a metaphor for a big group hug? Grape juice and fish sandwiches anyone? Maybe they'll only have mana (what is it?) I said Mana, yeah but what is it? Never mind.

"So also (like in verse 40) is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:42-44
---Pharisee on 6/15/09


earl

thats not so!

John 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
---TheSeg on 6/14/09


Amen Scott H, MarkV, TheSeq, Pharisee, earl, joseph, trey, Leon, obewan, Warwick, Leslie, Gabby, and TIMOTHY.
Feel free to add your name if you also believe in Jesus, The Christ, The living Son of the living God, who indwells us with His Spirit.
blind Philip-John 14:9
doubting Thomas-John 20:28,29
stumbling Peter-Acts 5:3,4, John 21:17,Mat 16:16
Saul(Paul)-Col 1:15-19, Titus 2:13
John-John 1:1-18
Isaiah-Isaiah 9:6
Sorry about a verse repeat, Just saying Amen to these saints as well.
---MIchael on 6/14/09


David having no good argument tries to play semantics and fails.

The son of man is a man. Therefore the same so equal.

The son of a beast is a beast, Therefore the same so equal.

It should be obvious to anyone whose authority is Scripture that as there is one God I would not write 'a God.'

Therefore:

The Son of God is God.

Likewise beasts beget beasts, humans beget humans and God begat God.
---Warwick on 6/14/09


Was Stephen praying to Jesus, as pharisee claims (6/14/09)?

No, he was not. Worship and prayers should go only to YHWH. (Luke 4:8, 6:12) Under normal circumstances, Stephen would have appealed to YHWH in the name of Jesus. (John 15:16) In this instance, though, Stephen had a vision of 'the Son of man standing at God's right hand.' (Acts 7:56) Aware that Jesus had been given the power to resurrect the dead, Stephen did not pray but spoke directly to Jesus, asking Him to safeguard his spirit.

What did Stephen actually see? A triune God with 3 heads? 3 individual God's or only 1 person?

Acts 7:56- 'Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God's right hand.'

Well there's a surprise!
---David8318 on 6/14/09


Scott: It seems the bottomline is you're saying Jesus isn't God. If that's what you think, who then do you believe He is?

"Jesus never refered to himself as God."??? Earl, 6/14

Matthew 16:13-17

---Leon on 6/14/09


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The fact that Jesus is no longer a human being is a belief I've obviously been taking for granted. Pharisee cannot honestly be saying that Jesus Christ, in his glorified, resurrected state is still a 'human being'?

Did Pharisee have a mental block when he read 1 Cor.15:40-42: 'And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another, in fact, star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead...

Heavenly and earthly bodies 'differ'.

'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.' 1 Cor.15:50
---David8318 on 6/14/09


This is a good thread going here.
Where this seems to bog down is that Jesus states God is his Father. Who then is the second person of the trinity since all 3 of trinity are one and Jesus is also recognized by many as the second person of that same Trinity?.
I do not see that [cosmologically]"Christ is part of a co-equal trinity", because "He refers to the Father as God".
I do see that '[spiritually]' Jesus is, for all practical purposes and intent, God.

Jesus said,Ye have never heard his(God's) voice or seen his(God's) shape.

Therefore Jesus is our recognizable shape and our recognizable voice of God.
---earl on 6/14/09


Scott, Since no one seems to be giving an adequate answer, consider this:
Hebrews chapter one says that God calls his son "my God". I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal in essence as God, but since pride is completely ungodly they are incapable by their own nature of glorifying themselves. Therefore they glorify each other. If we apply this possible explanation to all of scripture I think you will find it applicable. Some believe that Christ was the "angel" that Abraham talked to. Every angel in the scripture forbids being worshipped, but this one did not. When "prophesying" in the old testament, men, moved by the Spirit glorified the Father.
---Scott_H on 6/14/09


Trev, When you add your own words to scripture it becomes misleading *Isa.9.6
does not say "The" mighty God! Is this a typo or are you attempting to mislead?
Also *the Son of God.He is equal to God*
Fathers are equal, sons are equal father and son are NOT!in any culture.
Where are father and son the same age???
God gave us this term so we would understand rank. If they were equal the term "brother" would be accurate!(in human concept)
Mediator between himself and himself??Hello!
---1st_cliff on 6/14/09


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Scott, Jesus did die in the flesh. "He was put to death in the flesh" This was a violent physical execution that terminated His earthly life (Heb. 5:7). "Alive by the Spirit" this is not a reference to the Holy Spirit, but to Jesus' true inner life. His own Spirit. Contrasted with His flesh (humaness) which was dead for 3 days. His Spirit (deity) was alive, literally "in Spirit" (Luke 23:46). Between Christ death and resurrection, His living Spirit went to the demon spirits bound in the abyss and proclaimed that, in spite of His death, He had triumphed over them (Col. 2:14,15).
---MarkV. on 6/14/09


Yes, let's be consistent David8318.
If you are going to put 'a' in front of the second word 'God' you therefore need an 'a' in front of the first word 'God'.
Since Warwick did not put an 'a' in front of the first word 'God', the 'a' was not to be put in front of the second word 'God'.
Hence beast from beast, man from man, God from God, and not 2 different God's as you may be implying, but One and the Same God.
immaterial from immaterial as opposed to material from material.
I guess it is now my turned to suffer for Christ's sake. May God Bless all in their search for Truth
---MIchael on 6/14/09


Was the lord a man? Yes he was!
Was the lord a regular kind of Joe? I think not!
But, more then this, he say, I am he! Who! Was he not saying, God?

If you are going to fight this, well, then you are fighting God!
Good luck with that! This is not saying God speed

God did come here, to give us more then just his word. He came here to give us, of his spirit. This should be clear to each and every one of you.

Is there a God sitting next to God? No!
But, his word to you is? Believe me! His word is waiting, just for you!
I hope you are using it, the right way!
God, forgive me!
---TheSeg on 6/14/09


Scott do you mean to tell me you believe Jesus wasn't raised from the dead and ascended bodily? Did you hear what I said? His Apostle said:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5

There's NO REFUTING IT he's a man even in his glorified state. I'd rather you didn't believe then believe in a false Christ who didn't ascend into heaven bodily. 1 John 4:3
---Pharisee on 6/14/09


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"The glorified, resurrected Jesus is no longer a human being."

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It demands a question, what is he then? There's no way you're selling this one with three scripture verses that in no way say that. if you're a traveling salesman keep traveling. NO SALE DAVID, I need more proof then that.

Dear children, Jesus Christ "the man" as his apostle calls him cannot be changed from a man. Read 1 Corinthians 15 to verse 47, he calls him a man again! He's still a man albeit in glorified form. If he's not a man then where is a man's hope of Heaven bodily going to come from? David, you should think twice before coming here even on your best day pushing nonsense.
---Pharisee on 6/14/09


Leon,

1. "He said he was the Son of GOD." True.

2. "...equal in essence to GOD the Father." (Jn. 5:18-19)

No. It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. Jesus never claimed equality with God. He straightforwardly answered the Jews: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. (John 5:19, John 14:28, John 10:36)

The Jews also claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but they were wrong about that as well. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and declared: "It is lawful to do good on the sabbath." Matt. 12:10-12
---scott on 6/14/09


"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 15:50

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" 1Corinthians 15:53

If the way you interpret this is right, (it's not) then the next verse has to be crossed out! What is the author saying then? The same he's asserted elsewhere: by the works of the law (flesh) shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16) Do we now stretch the meaning to make it mean something you imply? The context a scripture is contained in and the meaning you assign to a given verse CANNOT contradict what the rest of the passage is saying. (I would think that would be self explanatory!)
---Pharisee on 6/14/09


obewan,

But by referring to the Father in heaven as His God, is Christ still (to use your language) doing the "father's will" and "set[ting] the example for how we must make ourselves submissive?"

If Christ is submissive in heaven, after his resurrection, how are the Father and Son equal?
---scott on 6/14/09


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'No man hath seen God at anytime.' Jo.1:18. Context, always context.
---David8318 on 6/14/09

The scriptures do show people even in the Old Testament who've seen God, so AGAIN, our interpretation of a given verse CANNOT in any way invalidate the entire counsel of scripture. Besides:

Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11, 14:33, 28:9)
Jesus prayed to (Acts 7:59, 1 Cor. 1:2)
Jesus called God (John 20:28, Heb. 1:8)
Jesus sinless (1 Pet. 2:22, Heb. 4:15)
Jesus Omniscient (John 2:25, 21:17)
Jesus Omnipotent(John 5:26, 20:28)
Jesus Omnipresent (Matthew 18:20)
Jesus The fullness of God (Col. 2:9)
I could actually go on, but it's 125 word limit!
---Pharisee on 6/14/09


Trey,

But the question is, if (as you have stated) "He is equal to God" why would the Christ refer to YHWH as (not just Father) but as his God?
---scott on 6/14/09


Good question.

Many stumble over the trinity and many do not believe there is such a relationship of Deity.from John's position and understanding there are three that bare witness in heaven ,peroid.Jesus never refered to himself as God,his prayers are to his Father and as the story goes he will send any petitions to God but did say he and him are one even though he once stated his Father is greater than himself.I see that there are needed cosmological(actual)(relationships) comprehension of Deity as well as needed spiritual(personal relationships) comprehension of Deity.Cosmologically Jesus and God are not the one and the same but spiritually,If you have seen Jesus then you have seen God.
---earl on 6/14/09


'when we consider that the son of a man is a man, the son of a beast is a beast, then logically the Son of God is God.' (Warwick 6/14/09)

Warwick highlights a glaring inconsistency in his argument above. Perhaps deliberately?

The son of a man is a man, the son of a beast, is a beast, then logically the Son of God, is A God. Let's be consistent.

The Word was a god. 'No man hath seen God at anytime.' Jo.1:18. Context, always context.
---David8318 on 6/14/09


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Pharisee,

So that I'm clear on your position, you're suggesting that Christ in heaven, in his glorified state is...a man?

That flies in the face of the scriptural evidence that clearly states otherwise (posted by David8318 -1 Pe.3:18, 1Cor.15:44, etc.) and also would seem to bring into question the ransom sacrifice itself.

If Christ kept his flesh and blood after sacrificing it for the benefit of mankind what, if anything, actually died? What price was actually paid? That would amount to a divinely orchestrated hoax of monumental proportions.

Here I think your word "poppycock" more aptly applies.

Christ was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.'
1 Pe.3:18
---scott on 6/14/09


"If Christ is equal to the Father, why is the Father referred to as HIS God? Does this not indicate some level of superiority on YHWH's part?" Scott on 6/13/09

The eternal, non-containable, omnipresent essence of the 'mind' (intellect, mental attributes) will always be greater than the 'body' (Word, in this context) in which it is expressed, or through which it is manifest. For the tangible body is, and will always be, limited, the mind, essence, Spirit, is not. "Personally' 'I' believe that not even Jesus, being flesh and bone, will ever be able to be 'bodily' in two places simultaneously. Inferior to the Father, no, simply limited in terms of the bounds of HIs body.
---joseph on 6/14/09


There should be no doubt, Christ is the Son of God. He is equal to God.

There should be no doubt, Christ is the Son of Man. He is our mediator (Go Between) between God and man. Christ stood in our place and represented God's people upon the cross.

He was always a son and will always be a son.
Isa9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

For God to give us a son, he had to have a son in eternity to give.
---trey on 6/14/09


As I was about to respond to this post, I decided to read the responses of others first. After reading Exzucuh's posts, I can add nothing, other than what follows, without simply reiterating what he has posted. Well done sir.
"How can God have a God? The 'bodily presence' of His essence, speaks of the mind that brought Him forth, as that mind speaks of HIm.
"Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, 'thy God', hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Unto the Son [God saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom."
---joseph on 6/14/09


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The glorified, resurrected Jesus is no longer a human being.

'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.' 1 Cor.15:50

Christ was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.' 1 Pe.3:18

In his first letter to Timothy, Paul was discussing who Christian men should look up to if they were reaching out for or desiring to be an overseer (or 'bishop' KJ) within the Christian congregation. (1 Tim.2:1-3:10) Paul used Christ as that role model, the ultimate example for Christian men- Christ, who was a flesh and blood man, but is now our mediator. Paul was not discussing Jesus bodily form in heaven.

Paul states at 1Cor.15:44: 'It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.'
---David8318 on 6/14/09


If there was no evidence to the contrary Jesus calling God 'my God' would indicate He was less than God. However we are to interpret Scripture by Scripture. From the word, to the sentence, to the chapter to the book, to the whole book. When we look at this we see that God calls Jesus God, Jesus calls Himself God, the apostles called Him God as did his opponents.

There is much discussion about Jesus being begotten and being the Son, as though this indicates He is less than God. However when we consider that the son of a man is a man, the son of a beast is a beast, then logically the Son of God is God.

Likewise beasts beget beasts, humans beget humans and God begat God.
---Warwick on 6/14/09


Jesus, who in his eternal existence, was fully God, took upon Himself human nature, humbling Himself, limiting Himself, becoming a servant, for His time on earth-Phil. 2:6-8. For the first time limited, by His human nature, to being in one place, existing in time! Nonetheless He was at the one time fully God and fully man.

Consider the fig tree, from a distance in His human nature He did not know it had no fruit but then revealed His divine omnipotence by causing it to wither.

Jesus also knew, by His divine omniscience, that Lazarus had died. He then showed His human limitation by, having arrived, asking where Lazarus was buried.

A puzzle to those who imagine that by intelligence they can understand God!
---Warwick on 6/14/09


"your assumption that an ascended Christ ceased to be a man is false." Ditto Pharisee 6/13.

Scott: Jesus was born to Mary (a virgin). If you agree you'll understand my statement, "if" you so choose to. God became a man, flesh. (Jn. 1)

Would it make sense to you if Jesus had said MY "FATHER" GOD? (Rev. 3:12) He said he was the Son of GOD & equal in essence to GOD the Father. (Jn. 5:18-19) He also said he & the Father are "ONE" -- GOD. (Jn. 10:22-30)

Scripture shows a mutual line of authority within the Godhead existed before Jesus' incarnation & yet exists after his resurrection. How? We're not given to know except for what the Bible says. :)
---Leon on 6/13/09


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Scott, the verse I quoted about one mediator was post resurrection by the pen of Paul, which means according to Apostolic tradition your assumption that an ascended Christ ceased to be a man is false, thereby negating the entire premise you made to counter mine.

So how about lodging a valid objection?
---Pharisee on 6/13/09


"I for one "really want the truth" but you've certainly proven no such thing to me."

Poppycock! I hate to re-hash but here goes:

Salavation is "the gift of" (Eph 2:8) who? God.

Saved by grace through faith so that no ___ may boast. "man"

Jesus Christ ascended on the basis of his own merit (Php. 2:9) giving him a glory of his own.

Isaiah 55:11 But God's word doesn't return void?!

Isaiah 42:8 God said his glory he would not share with another, why how would Jesus be sinless, when that is what the Bible describes as the glory of God?
---Pharisee on 6/13/09


Pharisee said "I'm certain for anybody who really wants the truth I've proven that equality was proven..."

I for one "really want the truth" but you've certainly proven no such thing to me.

You said "To answer your immediate question, it's because Jesus stood as a man..."

However, in a resurrected, glorified, heavenly position (no longer a man) Christ stated:

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore, and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." Rev 3:12 NASV
---scott on 6/13/09


Timothy, Leslie, Gabby, Obewan, and Pharisee,
your response(s) fail to address the question... why is the Father referred to as HIS God?
(Scott)
-----------
I'll take a stab at it. I said God is like the brain, and Christ is like the body.
Well the God brain part is the part with the "will" to be done. Christ had to do the "father's will", and by him becoming "flesh", he set the example of how we must make ourselves submissive to the Father's will. And, for humans, created in the "image" of God, that means we need to make our "own wills" and fleshly bodies submissive the the "Father's will". So, God became a human to set the example of how to submit?
---obewan on 6/13/09


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Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
--More a simplification as opposed to the pharisee's complicating the old laws.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful
--OT:old NT:new
---MIchael on 6/13/09


The illustrations used- '3 parts to an egg' and 'brain, body, lifeforce' are excellent illustrations of the Babylonian trinity. Shame they're not in the Bible.

Jesus used many illustrations in his teachings. In fact, 'All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.' Matt.13:34

If the 'trinity' was a central Christian teaching, surely Jesus would have used just one illustration to describe 'trinity'. But he doesn't! Not one! Why? Because the trinity was a false teaching in Jesus' day as it is in ours. Jesus taught TRUTH.

Almighty God says at Hosea 11:9- 'For I am God and not man'. Jesus however, 'BECAME flesh and resided among us.' Jo.1:14
---David8318 on 6/13/09


Leon

I was referring to Revelation 3:12 where Christ refers to His God (four times).

This is long after his death and resurrection. So your argument about Christ's "humanity" does not apply.

Romans 15:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 11:31, Ephesians 1:17, 1 Peter 1:3 (all cited earlier) were also written after Christ's resurrection to heaven.

In addition, it's no small thing that in this glorified position Rev 1:1 describes God as 'giving' the Revelation to Jesus.

How is it possible that (if equal) the Son did not possess this information? (Before receiving it from God).

I'd also add that your comment: "He was God wrapped in human form/flesh (a man)" is found no where in scripture.
---scott on 6/13/09


"Why is the Father referred to as HIS God?"

I'm certain for anybody who really wants the truth I've proven that equality was proven in Jesus Christ. To answer your immediate question, it's because Jesus stood as a man, in the image of God. If Jesus be 100% man (which he was irrespective of his deity) then a man's position is to worship God who is in Heaven. The Bible talks about "one mediator between God and man the man Jesus Christ." Jesus has to be true to his manhood, and every man has to be created by God, thus the creator is his God regardless of the fact that he was as much God as he was man. I don't understand how space shuttles work, that doesn't mean their not real. What mere man achieves God's glory?
---Pharisee on 6/13/09


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Pharisee' Let me go one further on this "oneness"
The bible calls married couples "one flesh" ( we know there are two from 1st hand experience), but if the scriptures said Jesus and HIS father were something like "one flesh" then Bingo! everyone would conclude they are the same person,Right?
The U.S. Army's slogan was/is "An Army of ONE" One soldier does not constitute the U. S. Military! But they are "unified"
---1st_cliff on 6/13/09


Cliff: "Jesus walked with His apostle[s] for more than 3 years never expounding on "trinity"!" Well, He talked to His Father in heaven and sent the Holy Spirit. Do you think that they were just His imaginary friends?

Jesus also walked with His apostles for more than 3 years, never expounding on any changes to the Ten Commandment Law, yet most Christians firmly believed that they were changed. Go figure!
---jerry6593 on 6/13/09


Pharisee, You say there's no "oneness"like it??
Jesus prayed Jhn.17 "that they ,Father may be one ,as you and I are one'
There's no other explanation other than "one in unity"
---1st_cliff on 6/13/09


Scott: If you're referring to Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34, the answer is simple. Jesus, the Son of God (God) at the same time (while on earth) was the virgin born Son of man (man). That's to say, he was God wrapped in human form/flesh (a man). As sinless man he paid the penalty (death) for our sin. So, when Jesus referred to God the Father as HIS God, it was his humanity that was crying out from the Cross, not his diety. All was done according to God's (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) plan from the beginning (Gen. 3:15).

Hope this helps your understanding.
---Leon on 6/13/09


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Timothy, Leslie, Gabby, Obewan, and Pharisee,

Thank you for your responses.

However, with respect, your response(s) fail to address the question.

If Christ is equal to the Father, why is the Father referred to as HIS God?

There must be a reason. Does this not indicate some level of superiority on YHWH's part?

"...Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 15:6, ASV

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
2 Corinthians 1:3, 11:31 NIV

"The God of our Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 1:17, NASV

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:3, NASV
---scott on 6/13/09


Here's a brain tickler, how can something that has complete unity have one greater than another? You might point to a marriage until there's that inevitable meatloaf dispute. Onions, No onions! Unity? What now?

Jesus said "I and my Father are one." One negates separation There's no point at which these two find difference. "One" defies distinction, yet they are obviously different. We have a lot of pictures of it in our world but those pictures cannot properly exemplify relationship between THIS Father and Son. We use our human language to describe it 'huios' and still no relationship like it exists on Earth. Jesus came to Earth, and his life was an act of God from beginning to end, no goat is ever that lamb like.
---Pharisee on 6/13/09


Warwick, The problem with "common sense" is it's not that Common!
Here's the kicker..
#1 For 4,000 years God never explained "trinity" to His people with which He was dealing exclusively!
#2 Jesus walked with His apostle for more than 3 years never expounding on "trinity"!
# AH, but the fundamentalist today know all about "Trinity" (Catholic encyclopedia calls the "central" doctrine of Christianity!)
Well Lah-de dah and the moon is made of cheese!
---1st_cliff on 6/13/09


Well in all reality Cliff, Jesus had a bag of human flesh draped on him, he wouldn't even let folks call him good for this cause. He called himself the son of man when he was no man's son.

The fact is he does have equality with God because he possesses from his own merit the glory of God.

The Bible says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and yet this Jesus was held up as a man who "did no sin." A man who achieved the glory of God, we know from his word that it doesn't begin or end with a single mere man, Jeremiah 17:9 shows us the heart of men is wicked above all things.
---Pharisee on 6/13/09


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Pharisee, Ever wonder why the are "always " in that order? Father ,Son, Holy Spirit?
That is in fact the chain of command!
Your Q suggests equality, they are Not!Phil.2.5 Christ had no intention of usurping God's position! (called robbery KJV)
"My Father IS greater than I" (was He lying to the disciples??) There was an excellent opportunity to explain trinity to them if it were so!
He said "MY Father and your Father" and "OUR Father"Mat 6.
---1st_cliff on 6/13/09


Excuzuh, Yehowah comes from the pentateuch. so named after the seventy (acually seventy two) Hebrew bible translators who felt it nessecary to put at disposition tthe word of God for the Non-hebraic, or aramaic speaking Jews. has nothing to do with a bunch of unbelievers.YHWH has no vowels, so to a greek speaking jew it would not make any sense that is why these seventy used the vowels of Adonai between the YaHoWaiH or today Yehowah. so whoever says Yehowah says actually YHWH Adonai.
---andy3996 on 6/13/09


Leslie: Please allow me to add, God the Father is not God the Son or God the Holy Ghost (Spirit). God the Son is not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. God the Holy Spirit is not God the Father or God the Son. Yet all three are the ONE TRIUNE GODHEAD, i.e., the Holy Trinity. How do we know that? :) The Bible says so!

"Nowhere in the b[B]ible does it say, 'God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit'." Cliff, 6/11

Certainly not the way you've chosen to word it Cliff, but the Gospel reality of the Holy Trinity is evident in the Bible regardless of what you say.

Matt. 3:16-17, Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:22 & John 1:32-34
---Leon on 6/13/09


YHWH.Is the original unspoken name of God.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

Jehovah is not in the Hebrew but YHWH It was translated by ignorant men who did not believe in the Name of God's Son. It is a sin to speak this name. Yet people who say they keep the law transgress the law by using this name.
---Exzucuh on 6/12/09


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If you do not understand the Authority and the power given to us in the Name of Jesus, You will not have authority to use the name of Jesus. If you believe Nomos traditional doctrines that use some other name above the name of Jesus you make the word of God none effect. You are being rebellious and not obeying the word of Christ, Jesus said you believe in God believe in me also, He said you can be one with himself and his father the way they are one, by allowing God to put his name in you by the Holy Spirit. It becomes your family Name, Jesus the name of the family of God in heaven and earth.
---Exzucuh on 6/12/09


Exodus 20:24 Where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

Exodus 23:20-21 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not, for he will not pardon your transgressions: FOR MY NAME IS IN HIM

Numbers 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.

Deuteronomy 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there,

God is where he puts his Name and he has put his name in his Son Jesus Christ and every knee will Bow to that Name to the Glory of God.
---Exzucuh on 6/12/09


John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

John 13:31-32 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Jesus is Synonymous with his Father he is the name of God Jesus the Son is the Name of God, The person Jesus is the Name of God, God is where he puts his Name.
---Exzucuh on 6/12/09


if you are not baptizing in Jesus name
you are not baptizing people according to the word of God. Jesus came in his Fathers name just like you came into this world in your Fathers name. That is why God specifically told Joseph and Mary what to name Jesus. When Jesus said Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit he was revealing that his name was synonymous with his Father. AS it says in John The Holy Spirit will come in the name of Jesus. The Holy Spirit Is not a third person He is the Father's Spirit, Jesus Said God is a Spirit. It say's baptize in the NAME not names plural. There is only one Name above all names And that is Jesus. Father, Son ,And Holy Spirit are titles not Names.
---Exzucuh on 6/12/09


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Exzucuh. God had not revealed his name in the OT? It's listed 5524 times in the OT. Here's one.Psa 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
---john on 6/12/09


3 Rolls God Choose,to show us the way.
Jesus speaking"I and the Father are One"
Documentation:
John 1:1
John 10:39
John 14:10
John 14:20
John 14:26
Gabby6487
---Gabby on 6/11/09


It seems like if we go too far with the Jesus is not God stuff, we could end up with cults like the JW's.

John 1:1 clearly says that in the beginning, the Word (Jesus) was with God and WAS God.

We also have Jesus himself that told us: "I and my Father are one..."

I think it is hard to explain, but I think of it as God is the brain, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is the life force.

That may be a parallel to humans too since the Bible says we are created in His image.
---obewan on 6/11/09


Obviously Cliff we know the Father is God, why then should we baptize in all three names if the others don't stack up to the same billing?

Consider also whilst I have your attention John 5:23. Here Jesus says that all should honor the Son "EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER." and that he that honors not the son (in the afore mentioned fashion) honors not the Father which sent him.

Last I checked that emboldened part meant to give honor in the same exact quantity and mannerism without variance. Why would Jesus say that if he has no claim to any such thing? That would be sin, and why would God share his glory, (sinlesness, see Romans 3:23) as we know in times past he said he never would? (Isaiah 42:8)
---Pharisee on 6/11/09


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Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?
what is his name,
and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


Jesus said he was the only man that ever ascended into heaven and came back again. His
Father's name had not been revealed in the old testament but the his Holy Spirit had already revealed that he had a Son.
---Exzucuh on 6/11/09


Pharisee, You're stretching it just a tad there!
Nowhere in Mat.28 are they called "God"(Individually or colectively)
An egg white is not an egg, neither is a shell!
While I have your attention, why for 4,000 years did no one consider a trinity except
Egypt (Isis, Horus and Set)
India( Brahma, Vishnu and Siva)
Babylon Nimrod, Samiramus (wife), Samiramus (mother)
---1st_cliff on 6/11/09


An egg is not of three parts but has thirteen
distinct parts. Men try to describe God that they have not seen, and compare him to things they have seen but still know nothing about Him or the things they compare him to.

Isaiah 40:18-19 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

Now men make Idols of words that describe God in the mind and worship their thoughts that they have created .
---Exzucuh on 6/11/09


Leslie,Nowhere in the bible does it say "God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" so glibly spouted by the fundamentalists that people believe it's scriptural!
If I make a frosting with the white, eat the yoke and throw the shell in the trash, is it still an "egg"?
---1st_cliff on 6/11/09

Actually, yes. It's not in it's original form but it's still very much an egg. If you consulted a frosting package that contained egg whites it would list that ingredient.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19
---Pharisee on 6/11/09


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Because Jesus is Gods Son, And the trinity doctrine is a Nomos Tradition doctrine that was written by men and is not a true interpretation, It is a tare doctrine sown by the devil to cause division and false religion. The Father is The God of Jesus Christ
And if you do not believe that he is truly God's only begotten son you cannot be saved.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Just as Eve came from Adam and is part of Adam but is not Adam, So is the Father and the Son. The Father is Spirit Jesus is the first born of that Spirit as the word says he is the express image of the Father the exact likeness.
---Exzucuh on 6/11/09


Leslie,Nowhere in the bible does it say "God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" so glibly spouted by the fundamentalists that people believe it's scriptural!
If I make a frosting with the white, eat the yoke and throw the shell in the trash, is it still an "egg"?
---1st_cliff on 6/11/09


This is another attempt to strip Jesus of his Deity and bust up the Trinity. We seasoned Christians have all seen this question before in many forms.
The egg answer below is great, just the right amount of depth needed for this question.
---TIMOTHY on 6/11/09


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