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Church Through Tribulation

"Anyone who takes the mark of the beast can no longer be saved according to scripture." If the above statement is true how could the church possibly go through the tribulation? Since all going through the tribulation must accept the mark of the beast to stay alive.

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 ---mima on 6/13/09
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The present generation of all who have received the "guarantee" will not experience the tribulation...

2 Corinthians 1:22

"HE HAS PUT HIS SEAL UPON US and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee".

2 Corinthians 5:5
"He who has PREPARED US for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee".

Ephesians 1:14
"guarantee of our inheritance UNTIL WE AQUIRE POSSESSION".

If we truly are hidden from the penalties of LAW inside the body of Christ and are "good and right and true", we will be kept from the tribulation...

Revelation 3:10
"I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world...".
---more_excellent_way on 6/27/09


Mark E, I haven't discuss end times with anyone on line. I was under the inpression that you did since you had answered me. I wanted to hear how you came to your conclusion on Daniel and why. But I see that you do not think this to be important to discuss and its only a hobbie for you. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. I will not wait for your answers why on prophecy.
Let me say I do think they are important to discuss with those who love to study. Jesus said concerning "what sign will there be," "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am He," and, The time has drawn near." To Jesus, it was very important that we be aware. Thanks again for your answers.
---MarkV. on 6/27/09


Steveng:

I understand, brother. End Times study is only a hobby for me. My real passion is for walking in righteousness and holy living. So, I can live with our differences.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/26/09


Mark E, sorry your 1st part was not posted and neither my 2nd part. It would have been more complete to discuss.
Here is part of my second, In Daniel 9:27 the King James Version doesn't say "a Covenant" but "The Covenant" which applies to the New Covenant. "He shall confirm "the Covenant" with many" Jesus said, "This is My blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for many" Matth. 26:28. After axactly three and a half years of holy ministry, Jesus Christ died on the Cross, "In the midst of the week (in the middle of the the seven years" at the exact moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom"
---MarkV. on 6/26/09


Mark E. 2: found in Matthew 27:51. This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. Why? Because the Perfect Sacrifice had been offered. Gabriel said that the 70 week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). If you remember Jesus ministry during His three and a half years focused largely upon "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matth. 10:6.
What I see is a continuence, no time between the 69 and 70th week. A complete 70 weeks as Gabriel said. One major reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its scholars misinterpreted Daniel 9:27 They failed to see Jesus as the predicted One who would die in the midst of the 70th week.
---MarkV. on 6/26/09




Mark_Eaton: "Steveng:The purpose for the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:24"

There are as many theories as a centipede has feet concerning Daniels prophesy. You only adhere to one. Chrisitians are only to be aware of what's going to happen.

Besides, I have enough problems to confront today than to debate prophesy. If you do an online KJV bible search for "each other," "one another," and "encourag" you'll see what I mean. I'm helping the Lord populate his kingdom.
---Steveng on 6/25/09


MarkV: Part 2

Jesus tells His disciples in Luke 21 when they ask "when will these things happen", if we refer back to the 70 weeks plan, these events should happen 7 years after Jesus leaves. But Jesus tells them something that opens up this "gap" in prophetical time. Verse 24: "and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".

What Jesus tells them is we are not on the 70 week plan anymore. The times of the Gentiles must be completed first. But what about Daniel's 70th week? God said it, it must be true and it must be completed.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/25/09


Brother Mark E, there is many problems when the seventh week is separated from the 69.

1. There is no precedence of that in Scripture. Of a started time period, stopping, and starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive: 40day, 40nights, 400years in Egypt, 70years of captivity.
2. Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn't, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.
3. Only Jesus Christ confirms the Covenant. Paul said,"Covenant" was confirmed before by God in Christ" Gal. 3:17. No where in the Bible does the antichrist make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone. The word "Covenant" is Messianic.
---MarkV. on 6/25/09


MarkV:

You have to read the entire chapter 9 to understand what the last section is about. Daniel has read Jeremiah and has figured out that the end of the 70 year of Babylonian captivity is near, so he prays to God for information on what is next for the Jewish people. God's answer is in verse 24. Verses 25 and 26 explain a break-down of the 70 weeks which begins with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2). Seven weeks to rebuild Jerusalem and sixty-two weeks from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until Messiah is cut off. Seven plus sixty-two equal sixty-nine. The last week is verse 27 which should have been fulfilled after Jesus ascended...but was not.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/25/09


The Secret rapture people generaly do not like to show how they come up with the gap theory and the numbers that allow them to seperate the 70th week from the other 69 since it involves a lot of multiplication addding and subtraction to try to get the numbers to fit.

Then they have to explain why when the other 69 are consecutive they have the right to split off the last week.

It took me awhile to find it. But that was before internet you can probably find it now. Very interesting math gymnastics.
---Samuel on 6/25/09




Mark E. how did you separate the "One week" from the 70? Can you give Scripture to indicate that there is a time period from the 69-70? I am still trying to get what it is all of you are talking about. Hale Lindsey in his "The late Great Planet Earth" reflects this current view when he writes about "God's last seven year of dealing with the Jewish people before the long awaited setting up of the kingdom of God. No where do I find that. It cannot be from Daniel 9:27. I have read those passages and nothing whatsoever is mentioned not only concerning a future 7 years, nor a future rebuild Jewish Temple inside Jerualem. Maybe I am missing something that all of you know about.
---MarkV. on 6/25/09


Steveng:

The purpose for the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:24 was "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place".

I would agree that all have been fulfilled except annointing the most holy place (temple). There is no temple. In fact, if you try to bring in Herod's temple it is out of sequence because Jesus brought the everlasting righteousness with His death and vision and prophecy was not completed until 90 AD, after Herod's temple was destroyed.

The seventieth week is YET to be fulfilled.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/24/09


Samuel:

The seventy weeks of Daniel are not complete, check the post I wrote to Steveng.

In Luke 21:24 Jesus said "and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".

The time of the Gentiles is the gap in the seventy weeks of Daniel. Paul even refers to it in Rom 11:25 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".
---Mark_Eaton on 6/24/09


Since the 70 weeks of Daniel are over how can the 70th week be for wrath since it is already past. Most people do not even know that it takes elaborate math permutations to try to get the 70 weeks from not being over.

The wrath of GOD will fall all around Christians just like the plagues on egypt fell around Israel.

If you start going through tibulation will you give up your faith like many in china did when they faced what they were told would not happen to them as the Communists took over.
---Samuel on 6/24/09


Mark_Eaton: "Why would God save you from His judgment just to pour out His wrath on you?"

The last generation is a most wicked generation - this includes christians. Many christians call themselves christians, but are not. Since we are living during the last generation, God's test is harsher than any of his tests in the past - including Job's. Remember, God is choosing people who are going to be citizens of Heaven. How much faith will you have during times of trouble before you turn you back on God?

But do not worry, If you are not favored by God during the first resurrection, you will have a second chance of living forever at the second resurrection.
---Steveng on 6/23/09


Mark_Eaton: "We are not in the Tribulation period. I doubt if we can miss it."

On the contrary, many, if not most, christians will not realize we are living in the tribulation.

Those items you listed will be blamed on global warming or global cooling, depending on who christians believe. Man will have some logical reasons for those events as did the Pharoah's magic. As a matter of fact, many christians believe science, technology, and medical advancements more than God.
---Steveng on 6/23/09


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Jerry:

Persecution is not God's wrath. Persecution comes from the world or from the enemy because of our testimony, it does not come from God. I do agree that the church will suffer persecution, just not God's wrath. The Tribulation period is about God's wrath.

Being saved from God's wrath is Biblical.

Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

1 Thes. 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come".

1 Thes 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".
---Mark_Eaton on 6/23/09


I see a lot of verses being taken out of context. If you will notice, the Church is no longer mentioned at all after Chapter 3 in the book of Revelation. Christ is coming soon. Our redemption draws nigh.
---jeff9994 on 6/23/09


Steveng:

You seem like a student of the Bible. Tell me this. What is the purpose of the Tribulation?

The purpose of the Tribulation period (Daniel's seventieth week) is wrath. Rev 6:16 "and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb". The Tribulation is not about "proving" His church or His body. The church is out of the spotlight. The spotlight of God's attention is back on the Jews.

Answer this for me. Why would God save you from His judgment just to pour out His wrath on you?
---Mark_Eaton on 6/23/09


Mark Eaton:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

I guess I missed the verse that says "ALL except those previously raptured."
---jerry6593 on 6/23/09


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Samuel:

While 3000 dying is dreadful, it is hardy 1/3 of all mankind.

We are not in the Tribulation period. I doubt if we can miss it. I posted this on another blog, but it applies here.

If you think we are in the Tribulation or have missed it:

Did you see hailstone of 100 lbs
Did you see every living thing in the ocean die
Did you see all the fresh water on earth become blood
Did you see the Euphrates River dry up
Did you see an earthquake so great every island was moved

I don't think we will miss this.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/22/09


Mark_Eaton: "I pity you..."

Don't pity me. Pity the christians who, like you, thought that they are going to escape the tribulation, but didn't. There has not been one person who escaped tribulation in the history of the world.

Pity the christians who never prayed the right prayers of protection during the tribulation. These christian assumed they, being vain in their heart, thought God was going to wisk them away while other christians are being, to this day, persecuted.

Are you prepared to die for Christ as he died for you?
---Steveng on 6/22/09


Mark we plan on going to heaven when JESUS comes to get us. Which is described in I thess 4, Matthew 25 and many other places. It is called the Second coming. Where does the bible speak of a coming and a resurrection that does not fit these passages?

Yes there will be plagues and tribulation on this earth. Ask the 3000 people who died for their faith last year if they are facing tribulation?

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
---Samuel on 6/22/09


Steveng, Jerry:

How exacly do you plan on getting there so you can, 1. Attend the marriage of the Lamb, and 2. Be in his army when Jesus comes back ? (Rev. 19).

Unless I missed it, you guys are still on the earth. If you really believe that we believers must go through the entire Tribulation, I pity you. You really have no hope at all and its un-Scriptural.

Ever read the narrative about the people still on the earth during the Tribulation? Are they glorifying God and being saved all over the place? No. Few are being saved. Even fewer glorifying God. Rev 9:20a "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands".
---Mark_Eaton on 6/22/09


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Mark Eaton: "I believe the Rapture of the church is shown in Revelation 7:9"

What? Rev 7:9 does not mention "rapture," "caught up" or any such thing. There is only one place in all scripture that mentions people being caught up, and that's in conjunction with the resurrection of the just at the Lord's second coming. Any other allusion to the rapture in scripture is pure imagination. Rev 7:9 merely states there are lots of folks in heaven - it is silent on how they got there.

Steveng is right. The (one and only) judgement is over when the REAL rapture occurs. Jesus brings His reward with Him (Rev 22:12).
---jerry6593 on 6/20/09


Mark_Eaton: "I believe the Rapture..."

The soon to come tribulation, the fire that will test your faith, is the ultimate test for the Christian of this generation. It will separate the true Christians from those who say they are Christians. It is for the last generation where love has waxed cold and terror has strongly gripped the world and who will witness the second coming of our Lord. May your faith be as strong as Job's during these trying times and that you put on the complete armor of God for your protection. Meet with others on a daily basis to keep your faith strong for the time is at hand.
---Steveng on 6/19/09


This is a frivolous debate. But if you must, let's reason this out.

First, There is only One Judgement Day, not two. If people are raptured at the beginning, judgement has been pronounced, because the Christians were taken and the evil people left on Earth.

Second, There are only two resurrections, not three. If there was a pre-trib rapture, there would be three resurrections - one at the beginning of the tribulation period, one at the end of the tribulation (to bring up the Christians and converted ones), and one at the end of the thousand year period. It's written that blessed are those who rise during the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 6/19/09


Steveng:

I do not plan on being here during the Tribulation.

I believe the scriptures show that the believer is not destined for God's wrath, which is what this period is all about.

I believe the Rapture of the church is shown in Revelation 7:9 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands".

Sounds like the church to me especially since they are worshipping the Lamb.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/19/09


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The second Coming is the Coming of His Wrath and Vengence. I'm certainly not looking UP hoping and waiting for THAT Day! WE, according to Thess, will meet Christ in the Clouds. kathr4453

Yes at the Second Coming because he comes to get us.
1Th 4:15 read


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Read Matthew 24 JESUS picks us up in the air at the Second coming.
---Samuel on 6/19/09


The last generation is the most wicked, more wicked than in Noah's time, in which the christians, who are part of this wicked generation, will go throught the most trying of times, testing your faith by God. Those who endure unto the end, when Jesus returns, will be favored by God to be caught up with the dead in Christ at the first resurrection.

How do you survive three and a half years of tribulation? Learn from the homeless people.

Christians today don't believe that we are a very wicked generation because they are living through it. This makes it very difficult to compare today's time with Noah's.
---Steveng on 6/18/09


Bob:

These are in KJV:

1 Thes 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

1 Thes 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

Rev 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

Rev 6:16-17 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?"
---Mark_Eaton on 6/18/09


IN the flood the Righteous were on earth but safe. The wicked were all swept away. So it will be at the second coming.
---Samuel on 6/18/09

Samuel, I believe Enoch represents the Church, translated out.

Noah represent those who go through the Great Tribulation, and those who make it through, will replentish the earth during the Mellinniel Kingdom Reign.

IN Zechariah 12-14, says the Saints are coming back WITH Jesus at His second Coming when He stands upon the Mount of Olives.

The second Coming is the Coming of His Wrath and Vengence. I'm certainly not looking UP hoping and waiting for THAT Day! WE, according to Thess, will meet Christ in the Clouds.
---kathr4453 on 6/18/09


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The scripture states takes the mark of the beast AND worships his image. Things just might turn out how they have been taught in the past 100 years.
---Ed on 6/18/09


Yes the Church will escape the wrath of GOD. Just like Israel escaped the wrath of GOD when the plague fell on Egypt.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I Thess 4 and this all deal with the same event. No secret coming is ever mentioned in scripture.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

IN the flood the Righteous were on earth but safe. The wicked were all swept away. So it will be at the second coming.
---Samuel on 6/18/09


By what I read here, it seems imperative I get me an accurate bible. This KJV I've been readin', for 50 years... is obviously flawed--top to bottom.
---BruceB on 6/18/09


AMEN Jonathan! I totally agree with you as well.

The CHURCH has been persecuted and hated from the beginning. If you today are not persecuted or hated, please check and make sure you are in the faith.

The Great Tribulation is GOD's Wrath, not Satan persecuting Christians. WE (The church) are saved from the wrath to come.

---kathr4453 on 6/17/09


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Do you think the church has not undergone Persecution and tribulation in the Past?

How about the thousands of christians today are murdered for their faith?

The voice of the Martyrs tells how each day Christians are killed for their faith. But those who teach an easy believism preach smooth words saying some christians will get a pass and not have to be persecuted for their faith. It will only be the hated jews and those left behind who have to face persecution and death. You get an easy pass. That is not scriptural.
---Samuel on 6/16/09


I agree with---Jonathan and what he wrote.
---mima on 6/15/09


It will be a terrible time the Faithful ones. and in order for the Faithful ones to be approved by God, they will have to be prepared to be beheaded. (Rev. 20:4-11)

Having said that, the Faithful ones are not the Church. The Church, as the bride of Christ, will not go through the Tribulation, but caught up right before this Time.

The Tribulation time is meant for Israel people, or otherwise known as the Time of Jacob's Trouble. (Jeremiah 30:7: Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.) And the the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks (Daniel 9:20-27:)
---Jonathan on 6/15/09


It is not written 'deceived christians' who receive the mark of the beast are eternally lost. The anguish, shame, mental and emotional torment of those falling for, conforming to, advocating and promoting the deception of the spurious messiah, will last 'for ever and ever', (denoting the individual ages, of this one and the next, which is summed by the eternity, when time as we know it, cease). Until that time they will endure a burning, unfulfilled desire for, and the uncertainty of having no confirmed place or position in the eternity. However they will be taught and have the opportunity of standing before the Great White Throne to be judge by their works during the millennia, and perhaps be found yet written in the book of life.
---joseph on 6/15/09


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Jesus said in Matthew 13 that BOTH wheat and tares grew together unto the harvest, and the harvest is the end of the world, when the WICKED are taken out (raptured) first.

Jesus also said, "I pray you do NOT take them out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

The rapturist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus! You take us out of this world, God."

I'll believe Jesus.

Besides, is dying as a martyr for Christ such a horrible fate?
---Cluny on 6/13/09


Mark of the beast to buy or sell the Bible says, it doesn't mean you can't beg, eat from dumpsters, or grow your own food. This objection is without merit.

Nonetheless since we have ourselves a rapture blog, here's a new objection to post tribbers.

If the marriage supper of the lamb occurs in heaven before the return of Christ (Revelation 19:1-9) and it does, how could there be a wedding feast with no bride?

The church is the bride, we all know that because Israel is God's wife in the Old Testament, and Christ is the child ruling the nations with a rod of iron that the woman bears that the dragon tries to devour. (massacre of the innocents)
---Pharisee on 6/13/09


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