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Heaven Immediately At Death

If we go to heaven immediately at death, why did Jesus say He was coming back to get us to take us to where He is?

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 ---jerry6593 on 6/13/09
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Steveng //"Where then does the spirit of man go upon death? I think we will soon find out." Your answer=It is asleep.

Certainly debatable in view of the Transfiguration vision when there was a dialogue with Jesus between Moses & Elijah and the fact that when Jesus comes again, He will bring the saints with Him.

1Th 4:14 (Message Bible) Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


Steveng: Where in Scripture does it say the spirit of man sleeps upon death of the body? Sleep only refers to the dead body devoid of spirit/soul.
---Leon on 1/6/10


Lee: "Where then does the spirit of man go upon death?"

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts, even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other, yea, they have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast:

Job 14:14,15 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
---jerry6593 on 1/6/10


Lee1538: "Where then does the spirit of man go upon death? I think we will soon find out."

It is asleep.
---Steveng on 1/5/10


exzucuh: "And when it comes to prophecy you cannot be sure. Because prophecy is almost always metaphors and can be applied to different events as God sees fit to use them."

To you they are metaphors. People today are too educated to think that what people said two thousand years ago is nothing more than metaphors only because they cannot understand what was written. Today we can describe a helicoptor, but how would a person living two thousand years ago describe it? That person would have to describe it with the vocabulary of its time. The people in the year 4010 would surely think your description of their machines strange or metamorphic.

Can you describe heaven? Not using earthly language.
---Steveng on 1/5/10




Rhoda: You do well to cite 1 Cor. 15 but you miss the over"ALL" point of its message. Please reference in Scripture where it says, "Souls DIE...". Only God is able to destroy both body & soul in hell. (Matt. 10:28) Thank you. :)
---Leon on 1/5/10


Francis -Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART, AND TO DUST SHALL THOU RETURN.

The verse speaks only of the body which came from dust, but there is also a spirit within man.

Christ himself upon dying on the cross cried out, into thy hands I commit my spirit.Lk. 23:46

While the Bible speaks of the body dying, it nowhere states that the spirit within man dies.

Where then does the spirit of man go upon death? I think we will soon find out.
---Lee1538 on 1/5/10


Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART, AND TO DUST SHALL THOU RETURN.

If this is true, that we return to dust when we die, i surely do not see how we get to heaven immediatly after death.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

If this is true, i surely do not see how dead people think in heaven.

If the bible is true, we do not go to heaven or hell immediatoly after death, and we have no thougts upon death
---Francis on 1/5/10


---Steveng on 1/4/10 You have to discern what you are reading in scripture is metaphorically speaking or literally speaking. And when it comes to prophecy you cannot be sure. Because prophecy is almost always metaphors and can be applied to different events as God sees fit to use them.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

This scripture was used by Isaiah to predict the enslavement of Israel by people of a another language. But Paul used it to metaphorically show that the gift of tongues was sent by God.
---exzucuh on 1/5/10


"Then after a thousand year reign of Christ there is a second resurrection of ALL other people ... - some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death."
---Steveng on 1/4/10

There will be no righteous in the second resurrection. They are bound for the lake of fire.

Rev 20:6,7,9 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,... And when the thousand years are expired.... And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
---jerry6593 on 1/5/10




---Rhonda on 1/4/102 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---exzucuh on 1/5/10


Gina7: "That is funny Steveng, because I based my statement that there are 2 classes of people, righteous and unjust, from Revelation! It is you who are ADDING by saying there are 3! Per JESUS IN Rev 22:"

People will populate the new heavens and people will populate the new earth. The people who will populate the new heaven are the christians and godly people who are resurrected upon Jesus' second coming. This is the first class.

Then after a thousand year reign of Christ there is a second resurrection of ALL other people who are then judged from the book of life - "according to their works" - some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death. These are the second and third class.
---Steveng on 1/4/10


Jerry: As I understand Scripture (the Bible), when believers die our souls are instantly spirited to heaven.
*****

that idea is not from Holy Scripture and belief in this idea from men DENIES the resurrection of **ALL**

Souls DIE and wait for the PROMISE of Christ to return to resurrect **ALL** ...the key word in 1Corin 15 is all

otherwise there is a mini-resurrection many thousands of times every day when someone dies and there is nothing within Gods Holy Word that IMPLIES that idea
---Rhonda on 1/4/10


So if you are not looking for him to come get you when you die then you have only one alternative.
*****

and where is this idea FROM Holy Scripture?

looking for Christ when we die?

Scripture STATES when you die:
thoughts perish
know nothing
don't even know God

the MYSTERY that self-professing christianity dismisses because they choose to follow the fables religious men sell them is Christ returning to RESURRECT ALL who have lived and died in Christ to everlasting life 1Corin15 - when **ALL** will be changed in an instant to live and reign with Christ on EARTH
---Rhonda on 1/4/10


Jerry: As I understand Scripture (the Bible), when believers die our souls are instantly spirited to heaven. When Jesus returns, the OT & NT dead-in-Christ (spirits/souls) will come with Him. These spirits/souls will re-enter their dead bodies & immediately be raised (burst forth) out of the grave in their gloriously new, immortal, incorruptible bodies & rejoin the Lord in the air.

Jesus is coming back for the saints that are alive on earth. At His coming those saints will immediately be caught up "alive" (aka raptured) to meet Him in the air. Their bodies will instantly be transformed to incorruptible, immortal ones.
---Leon on 1/4/10


Steven G, I have to disagree with your statement that there is three classes of people. Gen. 3:15. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed" Two classes, the seed of Satan, and the Seed of God those born of the Spirit.
There is two classes Steven, sorry. There is no good people without been born again. Suggesting there is good people without Christ who is God is a false doctrine. The good those people you call good do, is not for the glory of God. For everything without faith is sin.
---MarkV. on 1/4/10


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It it amazing how ignorant people are. How blind they are. You cannot even read what people write. So how do you think that you can understand scripture? You can't even understand what I write.
---exzucuh on 1/4/10


There is a difference in the second coming and when people die. People die all the time and the second coming is an event that may not happen for thousands of years or it might be tomorrow.I guess you think Jesus sits around and does nothing. Jesus operates in the Holy Spirit which gives him the ability to be everywhere and in all his body the church. He can appear anywhere any time to as many people as he wants. He can talk to you and to me at the say time. If that is too hard for a small
mind to comprehend then believe what want to.
---exzucuh on 1/4/10


exzucuh: Yes what? Have you seen Jesus coming in the clouds with all His angels with Him? Did you hear the trumpet? Did you see the lightening flash from east to west? Did you see the dead raised and meet the living righteous in the air. Read 1 Thes 4:13-18. This is the description of Jesus raising the dead at His second coming. Is you saw anything else, then you saw a false christ. Where do you find a scriptural description of Jesus returning from heaven to resurrect individuals?
---jerry6593 on 1/4/10


---jerry6593 on 1/2/10 Yes that is what the Bible says and you better hope you do not offend him by your unbelief because Jesus said you can have what you believe and he also said he would return for those that are looking for him. So if you are not looking for him to come get you when you die then you have only one alternative.
---exzucuh on 1/2/10


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Because when you die he will come back and get you!
---exzucuh on 12/28/09

That's not what the Bible says. He would have to come back millions of times a year. The Bible says that "every eye will see Him" when He returns. I have eyes. I haven't seen Him. Have you?
---jerry6593 on 1/2/10


Gina7: "There are only 2 classes in the Bible, the righteous and the unjust (wicked)."

There are 3 classes of people - the Christian, the good, and the wicked.

There is a warning about people who add to the prophesy of the book of Revelation.
---Steveng on 12/30/09 That is funny Steveng, because I based my statement that there are 2 classes of people, righteous and unjust, from Revelation! It is you who are ADDING by saying there are 3! Per JESUS IN Rev 22:

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
---Gina7 on 1/1/10


Re-read Rev 20:12. The verse you speak of does not say "wicked." You are adding words to Revelation.
-Steveng 12/30/09
As all the righteous come up at the 2nd coming's resurrection, and there is no more marriage for anybody else to be born after that, it stands to reason that the resurrection 1000 years later is of wicked dead (who were not raised at 2nd coming - only righteous come up at that time)and they receive their punishment. Those who came up at Christ's 2nd coming, the righteous, will no longer be judged. They will ever be with the Lord. By comparing scripture with scripture this can be clearly seen. It is not adding to scripture, it is understanding scripture. The ONLY people left to be resurrected will be wicked
---Gina7 on 12/30/09


Gina7: "...when the 2nd resurrection rolls around 1000 years later for the wicked, the book of life testifies against them by showing that their names are NOT there..."

Re-read Revelation 20:12. The verse you speak of does not say "wicked." You are adding words to Revelation.

God is a just God and will raise the people in the second resurrection and judged them according to their works. Christians are to populate heaven and the "good" people - judged by their works during the old earth - are to populate the new earth.
---Steveng on 12/30/09


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Gina7: "There are only two classes in the Bible, the righteous and the unjust (wicked)."

There are three classes of people - the Christian, the good, and the wicked. Christians are to be resurrected at the first resurrection, at the second return of Christ, and who will populate heaven.

God is a just God who will judged the people raise at the second resurrection according to their works. It does not say "wicked."

There is a warning about people who add to the prophesy of the book of Revelation.
---Steveng on 12/30/09


John 11:24-25 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her,

--I AM THE RESURRECTION--, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Are you looking for the same resurrection that Martha was?

JESUS IS THE ONLY RESSURECTION!
---exzucuh on 12/30/09


Will this be a judgment on those who were born during the millenium? ... what use is there of the book of life?
---Lee1538 on 12/27/09
That is a very good question. The answer however is no because of this scripture:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels which are in heaven" Matthew 12:25

After Jesus comes back the 2nd time for the 1st resurrection, people no longer marry and therefore no longer have any children. The number of His kingdom is set, no more people are born. Therefore, when the 2nd resurrection rolls around 1000 years later for the wicked, the book of life testifies against them by showing that their names are NOT there...
---Gina7 on 12/28/09


Because when you die he will come back and get you!
---exzucuh on 12/28/09


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//Therefore to accomodate these two classes, there are two resurrections.

Very good answers Gina.

But that section of Scripture always has made me wonder if anyone in the 2d resurrection will enter eternal life.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Will this be a judgment on those who were born during the millenium? If no one will be saved during the 2d resurrection, then what use is there of the book of life?
---Lee1538 on 12/27/09


There are only two classes in the Bible, the righteous and the unjust (wicked). Rev 22:11 The saved and the lost. The good and the bad.

We have the living wicked, and the dead wicked. We also have the living just, and the dead just.

Therefore to accomodate these two classes, there are two resurrections. The just at the 2nd coming of Jesus with the living just being translated, with the wicked living being destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Jesus will not forget anyone, so whomever is resurrected 1000 years later in Rev 20:5 has to be the wicked/unjust dead, brought forth to receive their punishment in the lake of fire. As the wicked's names are not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
---Gina7 on 12/25/09


Gina7: Do not add to this book. It does not say the "wicked" are resurrected.
---Steveng 12/14/09

There is only one resurrection of the righteous, and that occurs when Jesus comes the 2nd time, and they cannot come under the power of death per this verse:
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Anyone resurrected in the 2nd resurrection 1000 years later are different. Do you think Jesus would forget any of the righteous? No, of course not. Anyone resurrected in the 2nd resurrection are the wicked, brought forth to receive their punishment.
---Gina7 on 12/25/09


There shall be a new heaven and a new Earth. Both shall be populated, but by whom?

There shall be two resurrections: The first is when Jesus returns the second time and the dead in Christ shall rise and the living in Christ shall be caught up with them.

The second resurrection occurs after the thousand year reign of Christ when all the other dead throughout all of Earth's history share rise and be judged from the Book of Life - according to their works.

Blessed are they who rise at the first resurrection for they shall not see the second death.
---Steveng on 12/14/09


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Gina7: "...the wicked are resurrected, and receive their punishment in the lake of fire "and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" Rev 20:15"

Do not add to this book. It does not say the "wicked" are resurrected.
---Steveng on 12/14/09


"The Bible speaks of two resurrection. One of the Righteous and one of the wicked."
Samuel 7/20/09
That seems to be one and the same resurrection, only the disposition of the resurrected is different, like some to the left and some to the right.
---Nana 7/22/09
The resurrection of the just occurs at the 2nd coming of Jesus and He takes us home to heaven. The resurrection of the damned comes 1000 years later. "The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" Rev 20:5 After the 1000 years are finished, the wicked are resurrected, and receive their punishment in the lake of fire "and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" Rev 20:15
---Gina7 on 12/12/09


Dear Tyge

At the second coming those who follow JESUS will be resurrected. I Corithians 15 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If we are resurrected at death then there would be no need for bodies to be put in the grave.
---Samuel on 12/11/09


The return is Death. The unbiblical rapture myth teaches that Jesus will return at 'an unknown hour'. But if we look at the very end of Mathew 24 we notice that the unknown hour 'RETURN OF JESUS' that came upon the evil servant was death:

Matthew 24:50-51
the lord of that servant SHALL COME in a DAY when he EXPECTITH NOT & in AN HOUR when he KNOWETH NOT (UNKNOWN HOUR) & shall cut him asunder & appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there'll be weeping & gnashing of teeth (Hell).

Jesus came at 'an unknown hour' for this evil servant & cast him into hell at his death. Logic says this 'coming of the Lord' is our death, the 'end' of this physical world as we know it. 1 Cor 15:26
---Tyge on 12/11/09


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At death the spirit goes back to God, but the body and soul remain on earth until he returns and the Trumpet of God is sounded.
---Eloy on 11/15/09


Before God came as Jesus, People slept in the graves awaiting payment for sins: Jesus died once for all. The Lamb became God/Spirit at his resurrection and started judging mankind. He already judged those who slept in the graves, the thief on the cross and every person after that day, He will judge us at our deaths too.

The day of the Lord isn't a 24hour day, it's a time period of judgment of anyone who dies. 2 Peter 3:8-10. We die at an unknown hour during this time period of judgment, aka the last days, The great and dreadful day of Jehovah, That day, those days, the last hour, that hour, etc.

We die to this world at an unknown hour, then we're translated to living spirit (air) instantly 'in the twinkling of an eye'.
---Tyge_Wellman on 11/15/09


Even heaven will not last forever. Lord Jesus says heaven and earth will pass away.
---sri.ramakrishna on 7/22/09


The answer of where we go at death can be found in the Scriptures.
2nd Corinthians 5:6and8
"6-Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8-We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The Lord is coming back (bringing our spirits with him) to raise our new glorified bodies that will be joined with our spirits at the resurrection!!!

It is our spirits that go to be with the Lord at death.
---mima on 7/22/09


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"The Bible speaks of two resurrection. One of the Righteous and one of the wicked."
Samuel on 7/20/09
That seems to be one and the same resurrection, only the disposition of the resurrected is different, like some to the left and some to the right. However, I gather that there are two resurrections per Matthew 22:30-31: "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, ..."
---Nana on 7/22/09


When the wicked die the second death in hell they will feel nothing for they have died a second time.

The Bible speaks of two resurrection. One of the Righteous and one of the wicked. The Righteous are raised to eternal life. At that time we will be changed. I Corithians 15.

But the living are not promised eternal life. To say because someone is spiritually dead they are not alive does not fit. Go up to any sinner and tell them they are dead and if they argue with you then you are wrong.
---Samuel on 7/20/09


absent from the body,present with the lord,applies only to the saved.the dead in christ.those who are lost are both dead spiritually,and physically,until the resurection for the great white throne judgement,where they will experience the second death after they are judged.
---tom2 on 7/19/09


Mark V: I think that we are on the same page here. Immortality is not currently our inherent state, but rather is "put on" at Jesus' second coming - whether we are alive or dead at that time (1 Cor 15:51-53). Thus, the dead cannot now be in a conscious state, as Jesus has not yet returned.
---jerry6593 on 6/26/09


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Samuel, when Scripture speaks about "the dead" it is refering to those who are lost. Spiritually dead. They do not believe in God. So He is not their God. "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living, you are greatly mistaken"
That is why Jesus answered the Sadducess in verse 29 quoting from Deut. 10:12, 30:6 how to be right with God.
Death in the Bible belongs to the lost. They are dead to God. Spiritually dead. When they physically die and are judge after receiving their new bodies, they will continue to be spirituall dead in Hell. Separated from God. And they will feel the pain of punishment.
If they were physically dead in hell they would feel nothing.
---MarkV. on 6/26/09


We will all be in the grave when we die.Some christians try to use 2-3 verses to say that we go straight to heaven at death.Jesus said death was a "sleep".If the theif on the cross went straight up when Jesus said this day u will be with me,then y after Jesus was raised He said to mary,do not touch Me as I have not yet assended.The NT saints also refered to Death as a sleep.If we sleep for 5 minutes or 500 years,it will seem like no time at all.We die go to the grave then are raised,so it will seem like no time as past as "the dead no nothing"Read all the verses in your Bible about "sleep".
---daniel on 6/25/09


The bible says"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"We instantly go to be with Jesus when we die, when Jesus comes back, our spirit is reunited with a glorified body that is ressurected if we know Jesus.Those who don't know Jesus, when they die, go to hell where there is torment for eternity. on judgement day the dead who are in hell and on earth are judged by God and the saints as we will be seated with Him.The judgement on the redeemed is only for our works which places us in heavenly places the Bible even says that there is a better ressurection for believers.there are levels of rewards in heaven, but we still will be made perfect and there is no jealousy in heaven. once we accept Jesus -we are saved
---michael on 6/25/09


I cannot believe nobody has quoted Luke 16, Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Where were they? Luke 16:22 says Abrahams bosom, or OT version of heaven. Where was the Rich Man? Luke 16:23 says Hades, or OT version of Hell.

What does this tell us? That we go immediately somewhere and some kind of judgment must be made prior to us going there.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/25/09


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I guess I have a question.. hehe maybe a few..
Concerning Gen 5:24, Deut 34: 5-6, Gen 25:8-9, 2Ki 2:11, Mat 17:3, Luke 16:23-25
Where is Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, and Enoch today? seperate answers if need be..
---MIchael on 6/25/09


Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. MIchael

The topic of discussin in Mark is about the resurrection. The Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection. JESUS taught that when we are resurrected we recieve as a gift eternal life. Promised when we are Born Again given at the resurrection.

Some churches teach we have an immortal soul so we are immortal already. But only the righteous get immortalisty. The Wicked will die in hell and cease to exist.
---Samuel on 6/25/09


Jerry, you happen to put 1 Tim. 6:16, claiming that only God has immortality, while I agree He is the only One now, but at the Day of our Lord, all genuine believers will also have immortality. That event has not happen yet. Just because the Spirit after death goes to be with God, does not mean the person is immortal already. Believers will receive a body like Christ. Jesus brought "Life and immortality to light through the gospel" 2 Tim. 1:10. It does not mean we have it already, eternal life or immortality, but we will, for it is a promise. Immortality is the perpetual life of all genuine believers resurrection bodies.
---MarkV. on 6/23/09


2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
Numbers 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
---MIchael on 6/20/09


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John: "But Many believe that at death the spirit is returned to the Lord and that this part of the person is present with the Lord immediately upon death."

1Ti 6:16 [God] Who ONLY hath immortality

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
---jerry6593 on 6/20/09


Thanks for the blessing Michael. I have yet to meet anyone who does hold the understanding I have been given. Most would agree with Jerry, in that the "interpretation" I have share would not provide comfort for the disciples. However, for me, it would have been indeed comforting, in this way.
Informing His disciples that He would not leave them comfortless, He would return (Jhn 14:18) to indued them with power from on high. That day (the day of pentecost) He would return spiritually to intimately associated Himself with them from within for the specific purpose of empowering them to stay in an abiding state of expectancy and hope, as well as to strengthen, and continue to teach them concerning the task to which they were called.
---Josef on 6/19/09


josef, although I do not hold the same understanding on this matter, I do applaud your attitude. God bless
---MIchael on 6/17/09


Josef: "We will not leave the earth."

1Th 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---jerry6593 on 6/17/09


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"I believe that your attempt to apply a metaphysical interpretation to John 14:3 is unwarranted" You are certainly entitled to your belief sir.

Yet I have made no attempt at , I have simply expressed and understanding. After all Jesus did say, and I quote "that where I am (present tense), ye may be also." Rather than 'where I will be (future tense)' [there] ye may be also. We will not leave the earth. However, this is simply my understanding, I could be mistaken and you could very be correct. It is not something that I would argue. As a matter of fact I never argue scripture, I simply share an understanding of it:o)
---Josef on 6/16/09


Josef: "In Jhn 14:3 the word [there] was unwarrantably added, never implied."

In my Bible (KJV), the word "there" does not appear. The word used is "where," and it certainly is warranted. It is correctly translated from the Greek "hopou."

I believe that your attempt to apply a metaphysical interpretation to John 14:3 is unwarranted. The context is given in verse 1 as a straightforward attempt by Jesus to comfort His disciples on the issue of His departure. A spiritual-only interpretation would not accomplish that end.
---jerry6593 on 6/16/09


Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias.
Duet 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not, for God took him.
No human bodies in Heaven? No human spirits in heaven?
---MIchael on 6/16/09


John, Everyone has their own concept of what constitutes a "spirit"
Ruach Heb. and pneuma Gr. both mean breath or air. If that's what returns to God, so be it because when He created Adam He "BREATHED" INTO HIM THE BREATH OF LIFE!
---1st_cliff on 6/15/09


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1Cliff. Okay, I agree with you that no physical bodies are in heaven until after the resurrection. But Many believe that at death the spirit is returned to the Lord and that this part of the person is present with the Lord immediately upon death. The body will be reunited at the resurrection.
---john on 6/15/09


Cluny/MarkV, You're right ,I don't, the bible does not support it!
No one can see God and live,not even Job!

When a person dies and is buried,a marker to show where he last rested ,stays there until resurrected!
Drowned at sea is a different story,nothing to mark their last resting place,so the
"sea" become the grave and the place from which the dead arise! New body and restored life! Resurrection means "re standing to life"!
Mark,the only thing to leave your body at death is your breath!You're dead until He brings you back to life!
---1st_cliff on 6/15/09


The Thessalonians were worried that once a person died they would never see them again. Paul to correct them spoke of the Resurrection in I thess 4. If the dead had an immortal soul and could not die like the greeks taught why did Paul not tell them the Pagan Greeks were correct instead of pointing them to the resurrection?
---Samuel on 6/15/09


Correction to previous post "to prepare a place for Him in us" should read "to prepare a place for us in Him". Just wanted to straighten that up.
---Josef on 6/15/09


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Man, (no gender implied) is going nowhere, the earth is man's home. The overcomer will reign here when Jesus returns, throughout the millennia.
When the dead in Christ are raised, those alive in Christ are changed. Together we are gathered together in our breath of life bodies to meet Jesus and His Angels as His wrath is poured upon the remainder of humanity.
The Spirit of Jesus, The Spirit of Truth returned to earth as the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit after He ascended bodily into Heaven to prepare a place for Him in us, and a condition within us for Him in fulfillment of His appointed task as Savior. That where He is, an abiding rest in God, we might be also. In Jhn 14:3 the word [there] was unwarrantably added, never implied.
---Josef on 6/15/09


References for prior post.
"If we go to heaven immediately at death"
Concerning where-Psa 115:16>Rev. 5:10>Rev. 20:9.
Concerning when-1Cor. 15:52>1Thes. 4:16,17>
Concerning Why-Mat. 24:31>Mark 13:27>Mat. 3:12>Mat. 13:30>Zec. 14:4,5>2Th 1:7-10.
Concerning-"why did Jesus say He was coming back to get us to take us to where He is?"
John 14:2,3>John 14:18-20.
---Josef on 6/15/09


\\Jesus says "the sea will give up the "dead" not dead bodies, they have long since decomposed or been eaten!Those that died at sea will return ,not the body!
You continually promote the false idea that the dead somehow still live somewhere. (without a body???) and come back to earth to get a new one to live in heaven..preposterous!(not to mention unscriptural)\\

What you're saying, Cliff, is that you you don't believe the basic Christian doctrine of the Resurrection of the Body.

Even Job said, "Though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
---Cluny on 6/15/09


1 Cliff, Ok, the passage does say that the sea gives up the dead, is the sea giving up Spirits, soul, dust, mudd, or what? You have the answer, why don't you tell us all what it is the sea is giving up?
---MarkV. on 6/15/09


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MarkV, "Here you are again"?? You try to slick one past me I will comment!
Jesus says "the sea will give up the "dead" not dead bodies, they have long since decomposed or been eaten!Those that died at sea will return ,not the body!
You continually promote the false idea that the dead somehow still live somewhere. (without a body???) and come back to earth to get a new one to live in heaven..preposterous!(not to mention unscriptural)
---1st_cliff on 6/14/09


John, Same as markV, Tell me how they will "rise" if they are already in heaven??
The "dead" will indeed "rise" from the grave or wherever,complete with new body as arising from sleep!

Think about this....fundamentalist view..dead go to heaven can recognize each other even tho they apparently have no body because they have to come back to earth to get one (even after 100s of years,1,000s even?)...talk about a fairy tale!!!
And "I'M" the one in the dark????
---1st_cliff on 6/14/09


1 Cliff.What do you think is coming out of the ground when it says those in Christ will rise first? What's in the ground but a dead, decayed body?
---john on 6/14/09


1 Cliff, here you are again doing the same as you do on all other blogs agains't someone, argue a word, phrase, sentence, or whatever you can spot. I am sure "Bodies" is talking about a dead bodies. Cluny's straight forward answer was not meant, I am sure, to be disected. Resurrection of the dead" is refering to bodies.
---MarkV. on 6/14/09


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Cluny: The Bible teaches that when a person dies, his/her body retrns to DUST and the SPIRIT/Breath of life (NOT THE SOUL) returns to God!

No one goes to heaven after death, until Jesus comes again and the dead in Christ are called forth from their tombs at the 1st resurection:

Ex. Acts: 2:34 specifically says that David
who had dies centuries eralier did not go to heaven.
1 Cor.15:51-54 tells us that we will not be rewarded with IMMORTAITY until Jesus comes again!
---Pierr5358 on 6/14/09


Cluny, Show me a scripture that says "resurrection of the BODY!"
---1st_cliff on 6/14/09


The reference to Jesus taking us to Himself to where He is refers to the resurrection of our bodies and being reunited with our souls at His Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation, when the dead are raised and we are changed.
---Cluny on 6/13/09


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