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Jesus Came To Fulfil The Law

What does the term "fulfil" mean in Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to "fulfil"?

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 ---jerry6593 on 6/15/09
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Suzie, it grieves me too that you don't hear or understand. You are comparing yourself to someone else. That you are able to keep the law and that others are not able. You and Anne are the incarnation of the Pharisees. "Look at me, I am holy and now look at you, you are sinner"
Mark E wrote:
"Pharisees sought to judge people on the letter of the law. Jesus sought to teach people about the heart of the law. He told them to "judge not according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment", meaning that the letter of the law they were attempting to require was not righteous in God's eyes."
Pharisees were righteous on the outside, corrupt in the inside. Stop comparing yourself to others.
---MarkV. on 6/24/09


But what are the consequences if we disobey a law that is not pertinent to the Christian walk? Is it sin not to observe any law not mandated in the New Covenant of the church? Must we observe laws that are strictly Jewish in nature? Lee1538

The Second commandment that not to make or use Graven Images is not repeated in the New Testament. Is it okay to use Graven Images to worship?

John and Paul both write that the law defines what sin is. What law were they refering to?
---Samuel on 6/24/09


It is Christ we seek to teach, not observance to OT laws - laws not found in the New Covenant of the church, things such as what day we need observe, what food we should not eat, etc.

Colossians 1:27-28 To them (the saints) God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ.


While there are certainly those that would reform the flesh, Christians need seek to lead others to Christ and fulfill the Great Commission.

We should not usurp the Holy Spirit by trying to convert Christians to our unique religiosity.
---Lee1538 on 6/24/09


SuzieH - *Gal 5:11-12...I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

The King James translators were well aware of cultural sensitivities and often used words that were less exacting in order to be less offensive.

Scripture says 'Adam knew his wife Eve' as what really was meant is that Adam caused his wife to conceive. He already 'knew' who she was.

It is much the same with Gal. 5:12 where cut off is much kinder than castrate but Paul has much scorn for his opponents of the circumcision party.
---riolion on 6/23/09


Incorrect Lee, the Pharasees were not the most righteous. Read Yahushua blast them in Matt 23:23 and other places in the Gospel accounts. This how they got their doctrine wrong and missed Messiah. They left out Justice, Mercy and Faith...There is no tithe for spices.....

The Law -Torah-(Holy Instructions) never taught works as way to Paradise. It was a Pharasee Essene teaching(Oral tradition...not the intent of Torah. When they say Law they see things through it.....Atonemnent by blood was always needed in the written Laws.

Circumcison salvation is not the Torah based on what I read...The Prophet like unto Moses (Yahushua) is..Duet 18
---Yochanan on 6/23/09




Philipians 2:13-15

It is man's will and volition which do the work from the urgings of the Spirit. If God is doing the WORK and the WILL, verses 14-16 would be addressed to God, an impossibility!
I am with SuzieH that man must be taught and admonished to heed to the will of God always, just as Paul similarly states "not as in my presence only" or elsewhere "to be seen of men".
---Nana on 6/23/09


Jerry *As one who teaches men to disobey the Ten Commandment Law, have you considered what the heavenly beings might be saying about you?

Again, you habitually slander those that truly love the Lord and seek to please Him in all aspects of their lives. How many dozens of times have I quoted Romans 13:9?

I continue to pray that you may have eyes that can be opened so that you also can obey the command to 'come out of her my people lest you share in her plagues'. Rev. 18:4

Obviously you are a child of Hagar! Gal. 4
---lee1538 on 6/23/09


Yocha - *The holidays and other Laws are very pertinant for Today because they point to Salvation and future prophetic events.

The feasts were regular religious celebrations remembering God's great acts of salvation in the history of His people (Israel). Holman Bible Dictionary

I suppose they can be 'christianized' to reflect some aspect of our salvation and walk but there is nothing in scripture that commands or even suggest that we need observe any of them.

Clearly, such distinctive Jewish festivals were not imposed on Gentile believers as they can only be truly appreciated if one is Jewish.

Can you picture an Egyptian Christian today celebrating the Passover?
---Lee1538 on 6/23/09


Lee,
You're attacking me personally because
you can't gainsay the scripture proof. Ad hominem.

Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,
even those who by reason of use
have their senses exercised
to discern both good and evil.

You Teach:
"Sorry to see your truly reject what was accomplished by Christ on the Cross, your law obedience religion will not save you."

God Teaches:
Jm 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works? can faith save him?

...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Heb 5:9...the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...
Rev 14:12
---SuzieH on 6/23/09


SuzieH *You hear this?
"There really is no room for one to brag about how obedient one is (or to curse others that are not)..."

As for your salvation & Christian walk, no one can brag about who obedient he or she is, as salvation is purely by grace alone and it is the Holy Spirit that works within the believer to desire and to work. Phil 2:13

There are many that would boost of their righteousness, however, the Pharisees were probably the most righteous when it came to works. Recall the Pharisee & the publican praying in the temple.(Lk. 18)

You should wonder how well you compare with that Pharisee who truly believed he was more righteous than others.
---Lee1538 on 6/23/09




SuzieH - *but some do not struggle, they just given in to it, thinking they will not be held accountable.

While that may be true of some, you need to understand that some of us have been Christians for years and have grown spiritually to the point that many of the temptations of the flesh are no longer a problem.

And there are those that are still on the milk of the word and still infants in Christ. Are you still on the bottle?
---Lee1538 on 6/23/09


*The Ten Commandment Law is delineated in Exo 20. These are laws written by Jesus Himself with His own finger in stone...

Yes, Jesus did indeed write the 10 commandments in stone, but that covenant (see Ex. 34:28, Dt. 4:12)was replaced by the New Covenant (Hebr 8:13, Gal 4:24f)reflecting the glory of the Spirit, not the law.

2 Cor. 3:7-8 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be DONE AWAY: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Perhaps most of the law obedience people (religionists) know little of the ministration of the Spirit?
---Lee1538 on 6/23/09


Lee,

When you hear me warn everyone that they have freewill
and a choice to make: Mat 12:33

Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man,
and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

You hear this?
"There really is no room for one to brag about how obedient one is (or to curse others that are not)..."

This is a reflection of what is coming out of you, and not out of me. I don't brag nor do I curse anyone. I realize how difficult the struggle against the flesh is, but some do not struggle, they just given in to it, thinking they will not be held accountable. I am not offended by your attack, but it grieves me that you do not hear or understand.
---SuzieH on 6/23/09


Jerry:

An Orthodox Jewish Rabbi would not be pleased with your dissection of the law. However, our only quarrel in this respect is the seventh day.

Pharisees sought to judge people on the letter of the law. Jesus sought to teach people about the heart of the law. He told them to "judge not according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment", meaning that the letter of the law they were attempting to require was not righteous in God's eyes.

The heart of the Sabbath day is honoring God and resting. I choose to seek the heart of the law not the letter.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/23/09


Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecies that were about Him. Laws of sacrifice were fulfilled by Jesus such as the Passover observance with His own life & blood being sacrificed on the cross. Sin offerings also were abolished because of Jesus and His sacrifice. He fulfilled the law that was on stone (commandments) and put it in our fleshly hearts. It is no longer a stony, fleshly law, but a spiritual one that works from the inside out. However, the sabbath was not a spiritual commandment. The laws God puts in our hearts are about love for God and love for our neighbors.
---Betty on 6/23/09


Lee- you and others like you seem to forget that YHVH Himself said that there will be one law for jews and gemtiles alike. You say I feel you have to be jewish. I never said that, your the one who always makes the Jewish thing a central doctrine. Of coarse we do not have to keep Jewish ceremony, but we do have to keep the laws. This is fact, and if you understood Paul you would know this.
---wayne on 6/23/09


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There are two different Laws that Galations letter is refering to idomatically and culturally of that time...works of the Law was a extreme Pharasee /Essene term used for salvation by works. "Oral tradition" view of the Law.

The "Law" never taught that at all... "Atonement by blood" has always been what the focus of Covenant History. Paul is correcting their tradition not the written Law.

Therefore, Once circumcised always circumcised and saved by ethicity is not correct doctrine.

Yahushua(Jesus) fullfilled the Atonement with His blood and we are the temple and priests. The holidays and other Laws are very pertinant for Today because they point to Salvation and future prophetic events.
---Yochanan on 6/22/09


---Lee1538 on 6/22/09

I only go by the Authorized King James Bible which agrees with the Textus Receptus. I do not pollute myself with the doctrine of men.

Case in point, you quoted this:

Gal. 5:11-12 ...I wish those who are disturbing you might also get themselves castrated!

The True Word is:

Gal 5:11-12...I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

"Cut off" means Spiritually cut off, not their privates cut off. Not castrated.

I see why you are having trouble understanding.
---SuzieH on 6/23/09


Mark Eaton: The Ten Commandment Law is delineated in Exo 20. These are the laws written by Jesus Himself with His own finger in stone, and ratified by Him in His own teaching and example. The "laws" that He rejected were those man-made regulations that were added. When He said: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven (Mat 5:19)," He was specifically referring to the original Ten Commandment Law, since He delineated several of them in subsequent verses.

The fact that Jesus quoted the 2 Royal Laws of love from the OT as a summary of the 10C Law in no way invalidates the 10C Law.
---jerry6593 on 6/23/09


*Faith is not believing only, but also doing
what God said to do, which is obey Him.
(Believing + Obeying)

While a faith that is alive will reflect good works, those works are primarily the inner workings of the Holy Spirit that dwells within the Christian.

Phil. 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

There really is no room for one to brag about how obedient one is (or to curse others that are not) as the credit really belongs to God Himself working within the believer.
---Lee1538 on 6/22/09


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SuzieH - *the law" here means the Levitical priesthood laws (in Acts 15)(outward circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.)

Not at all true according to the Biblical Dictionaries. The Law of Moses "signifies the whole body of Mosiac legislation (1 Kings 2:3, 2 Kings 23:25, Ezra 3:2)....The law is especially embodied in the last 4 books of the Pentateuch."Unger Bible Dictionary, p. 647.

Usually those that believe the law of Moses was limited to the ceremonial/Levitical priesthood laws are those that have doctrines that are based primarily on the Old Testament - doctrines unique to Judaism such as dietary laws, sabbath observance, and the like.
---Lee1538 on 6/22/09


Acts 13:39-41
...from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

Gal 2:21,16,3:11,24,Rm3:28
"the law" here means the Levitical priesthood laws
(outward circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.)

Understand, we are not justified by keeping
the Levitical laws/carnal commandments,
but we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith is not believing only, but also doing
what God said to do, which is obey Him.
(Believing + Obeying) Jm2

We are justified by Christ when we believe and obey Him.

Jm2:19
the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jm2:24
Ye see then how that by works
a man is justified, and not by faith only.
---SuzieH on 6/22/09


Christ himself taught that the Ten Commandments
are still in effect and are to be kept,
and also if we don't keep them,
we are in danger of the judgment.

Mt5:22
But I say unto you,
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
shall be in danger of the judgment

How are they in danger of the judgment?

Mt5:21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not kill

1Jn3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:
and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

By this last scripture if you are not keeping the commandments,
The Father and the Son are not abiding in you either.
---SuzieH on 6/22/09


The issue is that this new doctrine of Dispensation was taught in the 1800's in the American theological circles to prevent people from keeping Bible laws.

The other Biblical view is Historical Covenant view found in the early church. Paul is not against diet, holiday or moral laws. He meant to bring them in slow as disciples. In those scriptures of Romans: He is also adressing fasting and veganism. read the whole chapter...

The Pharasee's and Essenes had a very strict oral tradition view of the Law which Paul is referring to in Galations. not the Law itself. Otherwise, the Law is simple to live by and grow into.
---Yochanan on 6/22/09


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Jerry:

No one is telling you to break any of Jesus's commandments. How many times do you have to read about Jesus forsaking the cermonial Jewish commandments himself? In Scriptures, Jesus forsook ceremonial washing, teachings against gathering food on the Sabbath, teachings against healing on the Sabbath, in general, the commandments of men.

He stated that the Law and the Prophets depended upon two commandments (Matt. 22). Therefore, if you fulfill these two commandments you will fulfill the Law and the prophets.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/22/09


Lee: You are talking in circles. As one who teaches men to disobey the Ten Commandment Law, have you considered what the heavenly beings might be saying about you?

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven"
---jerry6593 on 6/22/09


jesus was speaking about the prophecies about him,including the one to eve in the garden.His coming was fullfillment of Gods plan to offer the entire world,Life,and to defeat sin,and death.The devil has lost,actually he was beaten before he was created.
---tom2 on 6/21/09


*"It is all from God's word found in Romans." Actually, it's a distortion of God's word found in Romans. Here's the Word of God straight from His own mouth: Mt. 5:17f

The 'distortion' is that you truly reject that decision made by the Spirit of Christ at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) and like the Pharisee party that complained, believe Gentiles should become converts to Judaism upon believing in Christ.

In doing so, you really reject the New Covenant of the Church and remain a child of Hagar representing the old Sinaitic covenant and not the covenant of faith made with Abraham. Galatians 4.

Sorry to see your truly reject what was accomplished by Christ on the Cross, your law obedience religion will not save you.
---Lee1538 on 6/21/09


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The Law of sin and death is upon all man kind
because the first Adam ate a piece of forbidden fruit.
The wages of sin is death. That sin was placed on Jesus and he died for the first Adams sin and the law was fulfilled by the second Adam. God put Jesus in the first Adams place. Now we fulfill the Law by obeying the Gospel which is the commandments of Jesus. If you love me keep my Commandments, The Nomos ritualistic Judaism
was done away and replaced by The Gospel that we are commanded to keep and obey. It was important for Adam to obey God and not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, the Law. And it is important for you to not eat of it either and obey the Law of the Spirit to obey the Gospel.
---exzucuh on 6/21/09


Lee: "It is all from God's word found in Romans." Actually, it's a distortion of God's word found in Romans. Here's the Word of God straight from His own mouth:

Mat 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Would you rather Jesus call you least or great?
---jerry6593 on 6/21/09


*The letters of Paul is not against moral, diet, or holiday laws. He is against the Pharaseitcal and Essene Oral traditional interpretations of it....

Paul was much against physically circumcision as was practiced by the Hebrew people since Abraham as well as other religious practices percular to the Jewish religion.

We even read he wished those that advocated circumcision would go further and castrate themselves.

Gal. 5:11-12 Now brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.I wish those who are disturbing you might also get themselves castrated!

And there is Romans 14 which rejects dietary laws, or holy days for Gentile believers.
---Lee1538 on 6/20/09


Being empowered by the Holy Spirit does not give a lawless spirit. The same moral laws of the original Law is supposed to be in a Christians spirit. The Law could not save other than Yahushua(Jesus) the High Priest and Lamb fullfilling the temple sacrifice system by Law.

The letters of Paul is not against moral, diet, or holiday laws. He is against the Pharaseitcal and Essene Oral traditional interpretations of it....
---Yochanan on 6/20/09


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*We are not under the law but yet not free to sin. What? Where do you get this stuff?

It is all from God's word found in Romans.

1. Ro 7:6 But now we are released from the law (and the law here is what is found in the Old Covenant) having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

2. Romans 6:2f What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Being part of the family of God, we are called to live holy lives, but at the same time acknowledging the fact that HE is our righteousness, sanctification and redemption (1 Cor. 1:30).
---Lee1538 on 6/20/09


Lee- Once again you run to Paul! Whos your master? As far as me being a bastard son, I follow what John says,

I John

3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Yhoshua did. You run to paul and dont even understand him.
---wayne on 6/20/09


Lee- See you call me a bastard son, but according to the scriptures Im living correctly, where as you live as Peter said in II Pet. You twist Pauls sayings to your own destruction as you do the rest of the scriptures. I feel sorry for you, I really do. Paul kept the law, but you and so many like you would rather live by your own law and use Paul as your excuse. Your against the Torah which Yhoshua preached, your against YHVH who sent Him to preach it. Yet Im the bastard????? Poor delusional Lee, yep your so much a christian, which is the root word for cretin- a stupid moronic person, you fit it well.
---wayne on 6/20/09


Lee: "We are not under the law but yet not free to sin."

What? Where do you get this stuff?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
---jerry6593 on 6/20/09


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Galatains 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Wayne, what is really embarrassing is that there are those that apparently do not know Jesus at all. They view Jesus as a model and believe one has to become Jewish in order to be a true Christian.

If you love the Torah, all you really have is the law and have not experienced the grace God offers to those who believe in His son Jesus. In fact you are still a bastard son of Hagar. (read Galatians 4:24f)
---Lee1538 on 6/20/09


Must we observe laws that are strictly Jewish in nature?
---Lee1538 on 6/19/09
Did you forget Yeshua was a jew? Let me ask you something very simple:

Who is your Master, Yeshua or Paul?

You quote Paul consitently but never Yeshua. Yeshua says follow the Torah,,and warns that those who use His name yet negate the Law or Torah, He will tell them he never knew them. It always comes down to the Jewish thing with you doesnt it? Im sorry your embarrassed by your Jewish Messiah. No wonder you call him by a pagan name.
---wayne on 6/19/09


Jesus did what no mere man could do, He obeyed the spirit of the commandments, thus fulfilling the heavenly requirement. No other human has or ever will be able to do this.
On the cross, when He said 'It is finished', it signified the start of the new covenant. All the old commandments were given to Israel as a sign of the flesh not being able to live up to God's standards.
Christ summed up the whole OT in 2 commandments, of which were spiritual. A person guided by the Holy Spirit should know how to love without a list of do's and dont's.
Jn 3:16, Mt 22:37-40, Rm 13:8-10, Jn 19:30, Hb 9:14-17, Ez 20:10-12, 18-20, Rm 7:6, Heb 8:13, 2Co 5:17, Pr 10:12, Rm 3:20-23, Rm 5:12, Rm 3:10, Ps 53:2-3, Jm 2:8, Ga 5:13-26
---MIchael on 6/19/09


*We are not under the law but yet not free to sin.

Sin is something that substracts not only from our relationship to God but ourselves as well as with our brethren. Scripture tells us that we need not to be enslaved to it.

Ro 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

But what are the consequences if we disobey a law that is not pertinent to the Christian walk? Is it sin not to observe any law not mandated in the New Covenant of the church? Must we observe laws that are strictly Jewish in nature?
---Lee1538 on 6/19/09


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The yoke of bondage were the carnal commandments given during the time of the Levitical priesthood. Gal 5:1-6 is talking about outward circumcision.

Do not mix the carnal commandments that were imposed under the Levitical priesthood with the Spiritual commandments under the current priesthood. Since we still have a priesthood, judgment is still occurring too.
You can not judge if there is no law to judge by.

There is still a penalty for those who are serving sin and not Christ,
as evidenced by many scriptures.

1Cor 6:9-10... Be not deceived...
Rom 1:18...who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
Rom 6:16...whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?...
---SuzieH on 6/19/09


1Cor 9:21
(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)

The school master =
the carnal commandments under the Levitical priesthood.
They were in bondage to animal sacrifices to obtain justification.

But now, we are no longer under the carnal commandments.

Now we are justified by faith in Christ.

What kind of faith? Jm 2:19

We are to Believe in Christ for our redemption
and obey His spiritual commandments. (Jm2)

We can not have justification without doing both.

Today we must believe, confess, repent, and ask His forgiveness.
(Repent means turn away from sinning)
---SuzieH on 6/19/09


Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:
yea, we establish the law.

In any case, to establish the law can have the meaning of accomplishing the purpose for which it was given. From Galatians 3 we read that the law was but a school master to guide us until we could be justified by faith.

Ga 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are not under the law but yet not free to sin.
---Lee1538 on 6/19/09


Lee1538 on 6/18/09.. agreed on this issue, hehe
I guess we are all like the seven churches,
areas where Christ will commend us and areas where Christ will rebuke us.
God Bless
---MIchael on 6/18/09


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What is the opposite of "destroy"?

How about establish...

Example:

Gen 9:11
And I will establish my covenant with you,

neither shall all flesh be cut off
any more by the waters of a flood,
neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

This covenant was to preserve life verses to destroy life.

When you establish it, you also remember, perform/keep/do it.
Gen 9:12-16

Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:
yea, we establish the law.
---SuzieH on 6/18/09


People in the SDA's believe in this so much that it seems that by their standards if you don't follow the Sabbath, you are not following Christ. All other sins don't mean much and are of little importance, just the Sabbath seems to cause the most sin as they believe.
MarkV.

Wrong all sin is wrong. I am an SDA. Pride is one of the sins GOD hates. GOD hates all sin. The problem is that many get rid of all the Ten Commandments so as to not keep the fourth. How many times have you read here the Ten commandments are OT and not for christians?
---Samuel on 6/18/09


Wayne *Faith is shown by our works, this I agree with. Our works are our fruits, which is keeping the commandments.

And His commandments are fulfilled if you love your neighbor as yourself.

Romans 13:9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Unfortunately, the religionist believe one must dance the hoola on thursday mornings, or equally stupid, observe the OT sabbath believing we became Jews upon becoming Christians.
---Lee1538 on 6/18/09


The law made nothing perfect. For instance Sodom is part of the law and sports as well. I don't beleive that God ever intended for Sodom to be in any powerful positions such as law enforcement or medical professions. How is a reprobate (which means they are forordained to damnation) going to run a country? They will certainly lead the world to damnation perhaps in an advent to save theirselves alone.
---tonne on 6/17/09


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Mark E, I believe the arguments on this subject goes on with some who want to continue to make Saturday lawful. People in the SDA's believe in this so much that it seems that by their standards if you don't follow the Sabbath, you are not following Christ. All other sins don't mean much and are of little importance, just the Sabbath seems to cause the most sin as they believe. I don't mind that they want to do this, I don't believe it matters what day you want to keep for God when in reality we should keep every day for God. I don't mind either others talking in tongues if they want, I don't think it is a part of the essentials of the Christian faith.
---MarkV. on 6/17/09


The term fulfill in Matthew 5:17 means the following. Lord Jesus Christ came as a man borned of a woman and he, Jesus kept the law. His keeping the law was part of his righteousness shown back to the father that he accomplished. Now because you and I get his righteousness imputed to us when we receive him then his righteousness(or keeping of the law) is accounted for us. So the law no longer can be used to condemn me since through Christ I kept the law. And that's what fulfillment means. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law!!!
---mima on 6/17/09


Barnes notes: the law is 'established' by the doctrine of justification by faith, by this scheme of treating men as righteous, the moral law is confirmed, its obligation is enforced, obedience to it is secured.

Interesting enough there are those that say the Christian life is from faith to faith (and that is basically what Romans 1:17 states), however, then they turn around and tell us that we need follow the law rather than to live by faith alone. Lee1538

But many do not say follow the law to be saved. But that the law defines sin. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

I agree with Barnes the laws obligation is enforced.
---Samuel on 6/17/09


Faith is expressed by the heart to God.
Acts 15:8, Jer 24:7, Ps 44:21, 1 Sam 16:7
Faith is expressed by works to fellow man.
Mat 7:20, 1Pet 3:1, 1 Cor 7:16
God is pleased by faith and works through faith.
Heb 11, Heb 13:6, 1 Cor 1:21
We match our faith in our hearts with good works, all else is unbelief or hypocrisy.
Ps 5:9, Mat 23:27, Isa 64:6
Finally: 1 Cor 1:9, 15:58
---MIchael on 6/17/09


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---Lee1538 Faith is shown by our works, this I agree with. Our works are our fruits, which is keeping the commandments.
---wayne on 6/16/09


Wayne:

I suggest you read John chapters 1 through 5. Several times in these passages Jesus states "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24).

If we do not come into/under judgement, why do you think that the Torah judges us? Is the not the Son of God, Jesus, the WORD of God? The Torah was but a shadow of the REAL Word of God, Jesus. Every word, every symbol, every law in the Torah is but an image of the life of Jesus. And when Jesus said we will not come under judgment, I believe Him.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/16/09


wayne - *This is in total opposition to James, James says faith alone cannot save you, so please explain the contradiction.

James merely states that a faith that is dead cannot save but a faith that is alive is expressed by good works.

Suggest you find a good commentary on James and read it.
---Lee1538 on 6/16/09


Interesting enough there are those that say the Christian life is from faith to faith (and that is basically what Romans 1:17 states), however, then they turn around and tell us that we need follow the law rather than to live by faith alone.
---Lee1538 on 6/16/09
This is in total opposition to James, James says faith alone cannot save you, so please explain the contradiction.
---wayne on 6/16/09


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What most people who call themselves christian wont admit is the fact in pauls writings he actually says things in direct opposition to Torah, Prophets, Apostles, and Yeshua. The council in Yerusalem said gentiles were not to eat food sacrificed to idols, yet paul said to eat it anyway. Why?Why does paul tell the vision defferently each time, he cant remember? He says circumscision is nothing,but yet has Timothy circumscised, why? Paul says he never offended any point of the law, but yet said others didnt have to follow it, that makes him a hypocrite. He calls the Gospel his, I thought it was Yeshua's. So explain these.
---wayne on 6/16/09


Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

What exactly is meant by the phrase 'we establish the law'?

Barnes notes: the law is 'established' by the doctrine of justification by faith, by this scheme of treating men as righteous, the moral law is confirmed, its obligation is enforced, obedience to it is secured.

Interesting enough there are those that say the Christian life is from faith to faith (and that is basically what Romans 1:17 states), however, then they turn around and tell us that we need follow the law rather than to live by faith alone.
---Lee1538 on 6/16/09


---Mark_Eaton All of my posts didnt go through again for some reason,so this is why no one will understand what I was getting at, so forgive me for that.

But on a different note, believers think because Yeshua came to fullfil somehow means they do not have to keep the Torah anymore, but this is quit wrong. In the restored edition of the scriptures it says this: Think not that Iam come to weaken or destroy Torah or the Prophets,I have not come to weaken or destroy,but to completly reveal it in its inteaded fullness. This shows us he shows us the proper way to keep the Torah
---wayne on 6/16/09


1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Paul's objective was to preach Christ, not make converts to Judaism.

Those that preach law, really ignore grace believing they can achieve favor with God by obedience to law. What they in effect have done is to fall into what is known as the Galatian heresy.

Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
---Lee1538 on 6/16/09


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Wayne:

Unless you are reading a different Bible than I am, Jesus Himself referred to the "Abomination of Desolation" in Matt. 24:15 and refered it back to Daniel. The fulfillment of Daniel's prophesy (Chapter 9) was Antiochus Epiphanes (1 Maccabees) when he slaughtered a pig on the altar to Zeus.

Every Jew at the time of Christ would have known this event because it had just happened it their recent past and they had recently started celebrating Chanukkah, an event that happened during that time.

To connect Jesus' death with the "A of D" is unscriptural and completely incorrect. Read the entire Tanakh and not just the Torah.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/16/09


Those who run to Paul to negate the law defining sin do so by ignoring all that Paul said about the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul fought against works salvation so some take his words and twist them to get rid of the law. They ignore in Galations five and romans where he speaks of the law as defining sin.

To be under the law is to be living in sin. To be in JESUS is to not be sinning.
---Samuel on 6/16/09


"What does the term "fulfil" mean? The word is "plero" in the greek language, and In this context the word means, "to complete, to bring to the full, to render full, to accomplish or carry out an undertaking or task".
Jesus' finished work was the summation of the Law and prophets.
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
Jesus said Lo, I come [came]: in the volume of the book [is] written of Me.
Rom 3:31>Rom 10:4>Luk 16:16>Psa 40:7
---josef on 6/16/09


Wayne you have misquoted Paul in this "not being myself under the law".
What he actually said, from the King James version, is, and I quote:
1Co 9:20 "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law"
And to finish the complete quote without additions or subtractions:
1Co 9:21 "To them that are without law, 'as' without law, '(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)' that I might gain them that are without law."
You asked "Does it bother you that Paul also admits he is like a shape-shifter or chameleon?" He is not, his approach is simply diplomatic, tactful.
---Josef on 6/16/09


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The Israelites had a relationship that was based on gestures/deeds/offerings/works, but that was insufficient to purify the conscience (Hebrews 9:14).

There should be no reminder of "sin" for those who truly desire to "draw near" (desire=LOVE FOR GOD).

Hebrews 10:2
"no longer have any consciousness of sin".

There will be Christians who must repent (do not REPEat) of WRONGDOING such as a previous lifestyle of drug dealing, etc., and also some/few that never had an evil lifestyle (we must not pick on ourselves or other people).

Luke 15:7
"there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance".
---more_excellent_way on 6/16/09


#1 Heres some hard truth!



THE COMING OF "THE END...THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE" WAS PROPHESIED BY DANIEL TO TAKE PLACE 1290 DAYS AFTER THE DEATH OF YESHUWA' MASHIYACH

"...for it pertains to the appointed time of THE END... and on THE WING OF ABOMINATIONS WILL COME ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE..."

"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
(Daniel 8:19. 11:31. 12:11)

The "regular sacrifice" was "abolished" when Yeshuwa'Mashiyach "lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).
---wayne on 6/15/09


more_excellent_way. I'm totally impressed with your answers. You have a wonderful way of explaining the truth that we are no longer connected with the old law but with the new one. I gave you a vote.LOL.
---john on 6/15/09


Jerry, because when Jesus came full of GRACE and truth..., healed on the sababath etc, he was accused of breaking the law. When He forgave the hartlot rather then stoning her to death, he was accused of not keeping the Law. This angered the Pharisees. They asked, Just who does He think He is? God?

Isaiah 53, The Law and the Prophets fortold of Jesus death and resurrection. It fortold, our sin would be placed upon Him.

And as we see, The Law and the Prophets concerning Jesus, the Lamb of God did come to pass...
---kathr4453 on 6/15/09


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#3 Deut 13:3 (13:4) thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, unto that dreamer of dreams, for YHUH your Elohim putteth you proof, to know whether ye love YHUH your Elohim with your heart and with all your soul. Deut 13:4 (13:5) After YHUH your Elohim shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.Deut 13:5 (13:6) And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken perversion against YHUH your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which YHUH your Elohim commanded thee to walk in.
---wayne on 6/15/09


#4 Now if you understand that False Prophets lead people away from the commandments of YHUH then you will have no problems with Matt 7:22-23... "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"

That little word lawlessness is what will send 99.5% of the church to hell. Lawlessness in the Greek is anomia (Strong's #3551) which has 2 meanings both are related to each other...

1) to negate the law.

2) lawless conduct, to be outside of the commandments.

Now let's use what we know about lawlessness and compare it to Paul and his Writings.
---wayne on 6/15/09


I like the last post made by---more_excellent_way
---mima on 6/15/09


#6 Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Gal 3:3 You* are so foolish!

Violation of the Commandments: Mat 5:22 "But _I_ say to you*, every [one] being enraged at his brother without cause will be in danger of the judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Empty-headed fool!' will be in danger of the high council, and whoever says, ' You worthless fool!' will be in danger of the hell [Gr., gehenna] of the fire [or, the fiery hell].
---wayne on 6/15/09


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#8 Paul Admits He Is AnomosDo you remember at the beginning our little discussion about lawlessness/anomia? Paul says he is outside of the law in the following verse... 1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law (Nomos-lawful),as under the law, not being myself under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law,1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, (I became) as without law (Anomos), that I might gain them that are without law.Just an observation: Does it bother you that Paul also admits he is like a shape-shifter or chameleon?. Some might say that he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
---wayne on 6/15/09


I believe Christianity has missed Christ's meaning in this passage by not connecting Matt 5:17 with Galatians 3:19-25.

Jesus said fullfill or "filled full" and not destroy. The law was incomplete and could not impart life or righteouness of itself. It kept us in bondage and was merely a tutor to lead us to Christ.

When Jesus came and died in our place, He provided the pieces of the Law that were missing. He provided the everlasting life and righteousness that the Law could never give. He freed us from the bondage of the Law and freed us from the curse of sin. He truly "filled full" the Law.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/15/09


Since law is no longer a consideration for the Christian, neither is SIN.

1 Corinthians 15:56
"the power of sin is the law".

True/real life is being "IN JESUS".
Acts 17:28 "In him we live and move and have our being".

In John 14:6, Jesus said that He is REAL/TRUE/EVERLASTING life.
---more_excellent_way

So are you saying that Christians cannot sin? Or that when we live in JESUS we like him do not commit sin?
---Samuel on 6/15/09


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